OccultForum.org

So I'm looking to get some input from experienced practitioners here.

As of right now I'm mostly an "unbeliever", or at least thats what I've been referred to. I'm going to write what I think is happening and then I would love for some input from others who are experienced in dealing with these things.

As of right now I have yet to experience anything that wasn't a thought form as I understand it. The closest I've come to experiencing something that wasn't a thought form seemed to be residual energy from some indian who could have possibly died somewhere nearby. Everything else has been either my own creation, or a creation of the collective consciousness, or someone nearby. It seems to me however, that the power of those thought forms are fading and are almost all but extinct.

It was way too easy to tell some of these "Gods" to just go away, while Steve Jobs seems to do whatever the hell he pleases, whether you like it or not. However, on the spectrum that is the collective consciousness, I have always approached from the side of scepticism. This creates tension between my vibrations and the vibrations of these gods and their survival seems dependant upon staying as far away from me as possible. It was my experience that due to the world/society/perspective on which I stand (on the spectrum of possibilities) It was much harder for me to disassociate from Steve Jobs since our vibrations were much closer together on the spectrum. The actions of the Steve Jobs thought form had a much greater effect on my vibrations and reality.

Still...

Its obvious we are not the only ones with a consciousness on this planet and I've run into thought forms that seem to rule some animal kingdoms. Birds and Insects seem to be the most helpful, but its hard for me to accept that these entities would exist without bug or bird consciousness. Honestly, I'm starting to believe the fairies everyone swears by are simply creations of animal consciousness. It actually explains a lot.

Can animals create thought forms? I'm guessing any consciousness that can make assumptions about its experience can create a thoughtform.

That being said I encountered something incredibly powerful in Afghanistan. Hard to explain the perspective of the Afghans, however I did run into some Djinn, which claimed allegiance to a particular village, but I also caught a glimpse of the thing that rules the mountains out there. The Afghans have a myth that when God finished creating the earth, he dumped all the leftover rocks in Afghanistan. However due to my scepticism, it seems much more likely that the rocks themselves have a consciousness and whatever imprint that thing had on me it echoes back whenever I'm surrounded by very old rocks. I know for a fact that I stepped on some rocks there that haven't been touched since the dawn of history. Whatever it was just kinda sat there and watched me, but I felt so vulnerable, weak, and surrounded by it. Everywhere I looked there it was, in the mountains, watching, waiting. It had a strong fire element to it and when I looked harder I saw lava, which I knew was the womb of the mountains, the birthplace of every rock on this.... rock.

Do rocks have a consciousness?

I'm just kinda brain farting here, apologies for the low quality of this post, but if there are people here who have a lot of experience with thought forms and or entities beyond the physical reality then I would love to get some input.

I'm starting to think that consciousness precedes everything, even in the realms beyond this one. What we might think of as entities or gods or fairies might just be manifestations of individual or collective consciousnesses.

This is childs play for experienced practitioners, however it kinda upsets me that children are trying to summon demons and the like. As a representative of the occult community, this is our fault.

So whats the difference? Is there a difference? How can we tell?

magari wrote:Can animals create thought forms? I'm guessing any consciousness that can make assumptions about its experience can create a thoughtform.

Technically, I suppose they could. But why would they? You're making the human mistake of assuming that animals assume. Animals don't over complicate nature, humans do.

magari wrote:Do rocks have a consciousness?

Yes.

magari wrote:I'm starting to think that consciousness precedes everything, even in the realms beyond this one.

Consider this:

Consciousness = Spirit

Now, go study some old school spirituality, where these questions have been studied for thousands of years. [thumbup]

magari wrote:What we might think of as entities or gods or fairies might just be manifestations of individual or collective consciousnesses.

They might be. But I've always thought there is a particularly nasty flaw in this line of materialist, atheistic logic: the human race, cosmically speaking, is not that old. The universe is older than "us." So how can we, individually or collectively, create these "thought forms" that have existed since before "us?"

magari wrote:So whats the difference? Is there a difference? How can we tell?

The difference between thought forms and natural spirits is quite simple, to me. Though forms are mental, psychic constructs created by someones imagination. They exist only on the mental plane, though they may be observed by other people and may exist independently of the creator. They can have sentient intelligence, they can have powerful influence over peoples minds, but they are...well, formations of thought. Constructs from Psionics are a good example of this.

Spirits are fundamentally different in two ways. One, they exist completely independent of any individual human being, being the intelligence of a natural force (the soul of a particularly old tree becoming a Land Wight, for example) or an intelligence within a natural kingdom (the Gnomes of the Earth Element, for example). Two, they exist as something substantially "more" than the purely mental form of a typical thought form. They have a stronger "form," a denser "energy." Think of it this way: a thought form may have a "mind," but it does not have a soul; a spirit has both. This is important to the practice of Evocation because spirits can be evoked on the mental plane as an intelligence (where you can telepathically communicate), on the "astral" plane as a soul (where your auras mingle, something important to evolutionary evocation), and then there's physical evocation -- which is particularly advanced, not entirely what it sounds like, and is what some consider to be classically "proper" evocation.

How can you tell the difference? A fair bit of study, sufficiently trained spiritual senses, and a substantial amount of experience with both types of entity.



~:Shin:~

Lots going on here. Lets start here

Shinichi wrote:

magari wrote:Can animals create thought forms? I'm guessing any consciousness that can make assumptions about its experience can create a thoughtform.

Technically, I suppose they could. But why would they? You're making the human mistake of assuming that animals assume. Animals don't over complicate nature, humans do.

I think its possible we are making a mistake in assuming animals are not like us at all. Many animals express human characteristics in how they perceive and interact with the world.

Animals that haven't seemed to evolve that much over time like elephants, dolphins, horses, and monkeys act and interact with us at almost the same level of understanding at times. Its entirely possible these creatures have existed before mankind and seem to express a connection of sorts in sensing and displaying emotions towards each other and humans as well. I also find myself incredibly surprised at the number of wild animals I have seen closer and closer to the city centers in reality today. I swear it wasn't like this 10 years ago. Perhaps I wasn't as aware.

It seems to me that its entirely possible that a consciousness with less distraction is much more powerful as a magician. This is what I have experienced. I will never forget the presence of some of these animals and the command they seemed to have over the world around them. The obvious difference to me between some of these animals in the wild (especially bears) and their presence at a public zoo, is how they seem to know exactly what is going on when they are surrounded by nature.

Our pets constantly freak us out right?
I know my cat is a magician.

I didn't say that animals do not have consciousness, I said that you were making the human mistake of assuming that animals assume.

Think of the difference between the dalai lama and a frazzled housewife and mother of four, jumping and yelling and getting stressed out over every little thing.

The dalai lama doesn't over complicate life. He takes it as it comes, accepts what is, works on what he can, and things move on. The housewife is sensitive to everything, and worries about everything, and gets stressed out over everything.

The housewife's behavior is certainly more common among humans than the dalai lama's. But among nature, the dalai lama's behavior is more common than the housewife's.

magari wrote:It seems to me that its entirely possible that a consciousness with less distraction is much more powerful as a magician.

It's not only possible, it's pretty much common knowledge. This is part of the reason why Mental Discipline is such a vital foundation to all schools of magic practice, and mysticism for that matter. The mind is not consciousness itself, but is a vehicle for consciousness. So thoughts distract consciousness, and this is why the Daoist term for Enlightenment means No-Mind -- when you stop thinking, you experience consciousness directly instead of as a reflection of itself, and thus you achieve Self-Realization.



~:Shin:~

Ok, this is a big one. I'll do my best.

Shinichi wrote:

magari wrote:What we might think of as entities or gods or fairies might just be manifestations of individual or collective consciousnesses.

They might be. But I've always thought there is a particularly nasty flaw in this line of materialist, atheistic logic: the human race, cosmically speaking, is not that old. The universe is older than "us." So how can we, individually or collectively, create these "thought forms" that have existed since before "us?"

First of all I want to try and remove your label of "materialist, atheistic logic:"

I personally have experienced enough to understand that there are "levels" of consciousness, very few which require a physical existence.

Beyond this there seems to be a medium which all consciousness acts upon. A "co-creater" in the chaos so-to-speak. In my opinion this is obviously what all the prophets said was God. <---- this might be too bold a statement
Anyways, this is what I recognize as god, because it responds very well to worship It become extremely clear to me that its a relationship which must be respected and loved and it will help you grow and develop as a spiritual being.

In regards to what came before us its obvious we didn't create it, however it also seems that every human being experiences it in a unique way, which explains the differences in cultures, myths, and paradigms. Can we see the parallels?

Therefore how can we say that the spirits of the native americans are any different than the pantheon of the greeks?

What exactly shows up when we summon Zeus? Is it really Zeus? Or perhaps its what Zeus represents through the persona a culture created to represent it?

Zeus is not Shiva is not Steve Jobs, yet they are consciousness's that share their birth with the birth of the civilization which created them. At least thats the answers I get when I ask. If you've never done it, I highly recommend it. Zeus is great, and if he likes you he'll take you to the cave where he was born.

Anyways the only thing that seems to precede consciousness is the medium it acts upon and time itself.

To me the medium is God.
There are consciousnesses that act upon it at various levels of vibration. Not all require physical form.

In my experience whenever I have come across an "entity" or called upon one, it seemed to emanate from a collection of consciousnesses. Some of these consciousnesses are so incredibly tied to individuals that you have to shift your perspective so that your "vibration" can fit in the "reality" those consciousnesses live in.

For example. The deeper you go into the water realm Franz Bardon speaks of, the more and more you become a being of that world yourself. There were obviously entities here with their own desires and functions, but something like the realms of the five elements doesn't seem to exist beyond the reach of humanity's collective consciousness.

I might be contradicting myself here, but I suppose what I'm trying to say is that what I'm looking at is a spectrum of possibilities that all exist in some shape or form, but I haven't been able to find anything that existed before humanity besides obvious things like rocks and plants and animals. The only things I see that came before all of this is the medium we are acting upon and time itself.

There seems to be some kind of alien presence at the edges of time, but the clues seem to point towards ancient astronauts, not the Gods and spirits of old pantheons.

So I wrote some in a private message to a well respected member of this forum which I think should be expressed here for clarity's sake.

magari wrote:
I've been around the occult community my whole life and have experienced what everyone else calls "entities" called by every name the english language could possibly give them and in my explorations they turn out to be nothing more than collections of "intention" by some consciousness be it individual or collective.

I'll never forget the interruption of an "entity" during one experience where others immediately began "banishing". This frustrated and angry force had such a presence it straight up frightened some. When I sought the source it turned out to be a spider which had fallen into the sink for the 3rd time that day. The intensity of the frustration felt by everyone was relieved when I saved him again.

This is a recurring pattern with me and "entities". The reaction I seem to get from most studied empaths and psychics is that I walk with an air of purpose and regality that leaves nothing between me and God, therefore everything else seems to shy away from me.

In my experience its due to the fact that I stand on an almost completely opposite side of the spectrum of experience and my vibrations can be blatantly destructive to any thought forms built upon very primitive understandings of the way the world works.

To me this also explains the evolution of these thought forms. Spiritism to pantheism to monotheism. Sure there was violence between pantheism and monotheism, but there was a lot of peaceful transition as well. Spiritism to pantheism seemed to occur flawlessly with the coming of the written word and our ability to organize our thoughts. Sirens were nothing to fear, however the wrath of poseidon was something we kept vigilant against, whereas before these spirits were organized, they all had an almost equal amount of power.

The only way it seems to experience these entities is to "stand on their side of the fence" so to speak, propping them up with belief and myth, which will bring anything to life.

I'm just taking everything a step at a time in my opinion.

When I push myself towards experiencing and understanding "Time" a pattern does emerge which seems to suggest another form of consciousness beyond the timeline of Earth itself, however, again its obvious to me these are ancient astronauts and not the Gods of primitive man.

I will accept that perhaps these ancient astronauts influenced mankind and created pantheons for us, but again, this is hard to work with due to the myriad of myths, names, and cultures around the world who are experiencing the same thing yet labeling it differently.

I have left no stone unturned and destroyed my belief system more times than I can count. If you know anyone who has a solid transcendental understanding of Time I would love to speak to them. Because, as it looks now, Time came even before God himself.

I will admit I began that thread with a bit of frustration myself. The community is incredibly misleading to those who are seeking the truth and in my opinion the longer we hang onto primitive magick the closer to destruction we become. Book stores are mixing fiction up in the New Age section and its our fault.

The children are lost and its our fault.

There is wisdom in ancient teachings, but there is wisdom in modern understanding as well. I think most of us need to let go of a fantasy.

Forgive my emotions.

I believe this is a conversation the community needs to have in order to solve some major problems coming down the pipe.

Not only is fiction being mislabeled as New Age Spirituality, but the rest of humanity hangs on the edge of the quantum world created by science. IBM is almost capable of controling this world in a computer and advancements in knowledge and technology is only speeding up.

Magick will die if we don't *DO* something!

No it won't.

Magic doesn't die. The ability to interact or interface with it may ebb and flow with the passage of time.

Magic isn't going to die if some people want to believe in New Age Spirituality. Besides, these are the people that are making the strides into practicing magic almost socially acceptable. Most of your 'fluffy bunnies' don't want to know the truth. They have access to it - it doesn't matter.

People believe what they want. What makes them feel good. And these beliefs can and do change over time as life and experience carries on. Personally, I like my delusions and my invisible friends. LOL

Before I just completely disagree here, I realized that there might be something very simple that I'm missing in reading your words.

Why do you think magic is going to die?

magari wrote:Magick will die if we don't *DO* something!

I apologize for these words. Going through a fit of emotions right now.

Obviously magick never dies, however its as if its about to change again in a major way.

If our understanding of the physical world or at least the "human experience" is a base for our understanding of magick, then has magick evolved with it?

No need to apologize. Emotions happen - especially on these Paths.


I don't think so. I think it's more that as we evolve we understand it better. And each individual evolves (grows, changes, matures, etc) at a different rate.

So much has been lost to time. All it takes is one generation to die before the next is taught for the skills and knowledge to be lost. And then we start from the beginning and figure it out all over again.

I used to think that there used to be more magic in the world than there is today. Now, I'm rather firm in the belief that the magic is still there. The problem is that we've forgotten how to access the deeper Mysteries.

The topic has kinda derailed a bit, but I could care less.

Is it possible the ancients didn't have the complete picture either?

Is it possible our picture is becoming clearer?

It's all possible.

They did all their astronomy and calenders without computers.

I'm the first to admit that as I learn and grow my opinions on things may change.

I'm talking about an evolution in "humanity's" understanding of magick.

Perhaps the ancient's weren't 100% correct?

I don't think any group is every 100% correct all the time.

So in what ways were the ancients wrong?

In what ways has an evolved understanding of the world around us given us more to work with?

When metalworking was invented we created rituals that required swords.

Shouldn't these rituals be updated?

I think magick can and always will change... as we change around it. OR... magick never changes,.. and it is only our interpretation which changes, now and thru the ages. That seems more likely. It also shows magick as part of the unnamed, or it would have been fully grasped by now.

I think it would be a mistake to consider the "ancients" infallible. You must weigh all information coming in on it's own merit. The messenger isn't the message. An idiot can impart truth, if you have the ears of discernment to hear.

I think part of the reason for death is because humans can only 'let go' of so much. What reincarnation adds to the mix is a fresh pallets for life to paint on, while the individual wisens at the core throughout lives.

.......


RR, enjoyed your words. I'm not in here much, but you sound more at peace, 'healed', happy? Sorry for being presumptuous. Just remarking on feelings while reading your words. [smile]

Thank you. That is so sweet of you to notice. I don't know if I'd go as far as saying 'healed' but definitely better than it was. We finished the 600 move (what a nightmare), finished the construction to get the house handi-capped accessible and brought my Mom home from the nursing home. Her cat scan came back clear - it's not cancer (this time/for now). I'm moving into this weird place of acceptance that I brought her home to die. I'm not as angry as I was before. That's a good thing. If I came off as a royal bitch - I apologize.

So in what ways were the ancients wrong?

In what ways has an evolved understanding of the world around us given us more to work with?

When metalworking was invented we created rituals that required swords.

Shouldn't these rituals be updated?

Which ancients? Which rituals?

Us? As in the masses or occultists or people in general or ... who is us?

I guess that'll depend on how you define evolved.

I never said that the ancients had it wrong. I said "I don't think any group has it right 100% of the time." Add in to that that history is written by the victors, countless libraries have burned and much of what's found isn't shared with the masses.

You know damn well that any technology that has or will be invented will in turn have someone, somewhere try to weaponize it.

I don't understand your post, where you're coming from or the rapid fire question and answer. What's up?

I suppose what I'm saying is that based on my experience everything we know about magick might be wrong.

This discussion is incredibly difficult to have without contradicting ourselves.

Everything that preceded the Earth I'm calling "alien" for now. Besides two things. God and Time.

Being that these "beings" are actually Alien they couldn't possibly identify themselves as any kind of creature from ancient myth. Those beings that do are really just thought forms.

Looking for help exploring this idea.
I've run into a lot of thought forms with a lot of heavy names.

Ok, the Ancient Alien theories. You've mentioned that before.