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I keep reading and reading, grimores, forbidden and banned books, secret books of black magic and bla bla bla.
It's all the same angels, demons and maybe a little bit of satan sprinkled on top.

Isn't there any real black magic?

Most will dare to say they know what "black" and "white" magick is, right? It is quite easy after all, isn't it?
White is everything that has to do with healing, helping and protection, black with cursing, manipulation, very often the famous love spell. That makes it also quite easy to seperate all the practitioners into white and black warlocks/witches/wizards/whatever. Progressive thinkers may let count "gray" as well, the ones which cannot decide for one of the sides.

So far so good, easy understood and defined. That perspective is solid.... until it get the first cracks and that can happen quite fast.:
- Is it black magick to free a fatally ill person from suffering?
- Was it white magick to forecast an assissnation of Hitler and saving his life though this?

How is it with the abortion of a child which threatens the health of its pregnant mother? Is this healing or some sort of black curse? Would to let this mother give birth to the child be a "white" or a "black" decision?
Or to hurt a molester to prevent rape? Defense or evil attack?
Is to refrain to help someone already black magick? (I mean you harm the person by refraining)
If I give someone energy because he is in bad condition, where do I get this energy from?

The list of the examples is practically endless. It can be summed up as a moral conundrum, a dilemma. Those aren't just difficult to solve in the area of magick, that is how it is on this planet.
Thanks to monotheistic dualism (god and devil, angels and demons, heaven and hell....) we tend to seperate things, to classify them as good or bad. But as the list shows it is not so easy. Nothing is just completly good or evil. Those situations don't only exist in theory or in the area of goddevil if you want to believe in them. As human we will always have to find a way thorugh the middle.

Is seems as the mentiones "gray magicians" do it right, A bit white, a bit black, it becomes gray. But that is not the whole picture. Magick is not simply gray, it is colorful. The dualistic perspective limits one to white, black and maybe some gray intermediates. But if one thinks for a moment one will see that not everything can be classified as black or white. How would that be even possible? Look around, this world is colourful!

I think you all know the saying of the magician and the knife but for the ones who don't know I will repeat it: Magick is like a knife. One can cut bread with it or tear out someones guts. Magick is a TOOL, the intentions are determined by the one doing the deed. But how it works out one will see mostly afterwards.

Looking around it can be seen that it is very very difficult for many humans to break free from their acquired paradigm, in many people one can find rudimentary remains of it even after decades after the change. But that is no reason to be desperate. At least in my eyes it is this mental fleibility which makes humans great and beautiful.

"Do what you want" (and bear the consequences)

This brings one into a difficult position. How should one act if this handy arrangement of black and white, right and wrong, good and evil don't count as measure anymore?

Luckily we live in a connected world nowadays. We have access to an amazing bunch of worldviews, ideas, perspectives, philosophies.... Look around, live it up, look for ideas to examine. Try to understand why other people think what they think and make up your own mind.
Books, art, photos, theatre,... everything transports a vision of the creator, the author, the componist. Think what might be behind it and where it might come from.
One does not have to like everything but to deal with other ideas keeps the mind agile and flexible and helps us to develope the current worldview even further. (that goes for every worldview, not just the dual ones).

If it goes for the practical decision making there is only one advice I can give: "Do what you want!" (Do what thou Wilt shall be the whole of the Law! is the english original by Aleister Crowley, but it is not only glued on Thelema, it can be used indipendently to express that one is just responsible to oneself and the own moral and conscience, no authority, no state, no parents,...)
There are no "right" or "wrong" decisions. Do what you feel comfortable with ( a small input: Even in accordance to mathematics there are no right or wrong decision strategies. Optimal decisions have to be picked individually for each model. catch word Game theory).

That is not meant to be a call for raging havoc and disaster. Think about what you are doing and the consequences of the deeds and that you have to bear those consequences after the deed is done if you screw things up.
Who rapes someone has to go to prison, who treats his friends bad risks the friendship, who quarrels with his parents risks the bond. Some of the consequences are inside the borders of what one can bear but some are not. What those are is up to decide for oneself what one can bear and what one cannot bear.

Some final words:

"But white witch Margarete /archangel Gabriel/ this and that homepage says ...."

I don't want to discredit the competence of your hypotehtical aunt Margarete or whoever else but here is the thing:
White lights are probably as common in the esoteric scene as are super dark black magicians. I mean this field is convenient as everybody can claim that he/she is always doing the "right" thing. That can be pretty easy and relaxing but in the end the world doesn't work that way and at least my humble self wouldn't depend my worldview on auntie Margarete. Think your own thoughts, make your own choices and build up your own perspective!

You don't have to like this or that perspective but at least make yourself familiar with it and think about it a little, be it muslim, satanist, christian, hindu or a follower of the flying spaghetti monster.

Ramscha

I agree with all of that.

BUT

There has to be someone who has at least tried to make some form of absolute pitch black magic. I refuse to believe that Anton LaVey is the pinnacle of human imagination.

Where are the books that will make me go mad, or cut of my hand and replace it with a chainsaw from simply reading a line of it. Where are the books that needs to be chained to the wall or the ones that opens portals to another dimension filled with nothing but monsters.

Or is magick just so plain and boring that it i nothing else then a side-theory of christianity. Is it just a psychological system of affirmations and positive attitude?

Perhaps you are dissatisfied because you are looking for the wrong thing and in the wrong place. Christianity does not hold a patent on Black Magic (even if they are the ones most persistent with the term itself), and if you are going to use the term at all, the common definition is "magic that is used to harm others." Humanity has about five thousand years of written history to prove that we do not need demons or even mortal tools to hurt each other.

Try doing some research on the darker corners of Voodoo, African and South American Sorcery, Left Hand Tantra, and some of the rougher and wilder aspects of Old World Witchcraft. Necromancy, Cursing and Hexing, learning to communicate with malevolent spirits directly (you don't need a grimoire if you know how to make your own), and similar skills and Crafts. Make your own "black magic," if you really dare to.

Just remember two things. Beware what you wish for, and curiosity really did kill the cat.



~:Shin:~

Shinichi wrote:
Try doing some research on the darker corners of Voodoo, African and South American Sorcery, Left Hand Tantra, and some of the rougher and wilder aspects of Old World Witchcraft. Necromancy, Cursing and Hexing, learning to communicate with malevolent spirits directly (you don't need a grimoire if you know how to make your own), and similar skills and Crafts. Make your own "black magic," if you really dare to.

But all of that is polluted by christianity as well.
Voodoo/hoodoo and all of that is just yaroba mixed with catholicism. And when you get into it, you quickly realize that it is just fetish worship, superstition and low psychological manipulation.
You can't actually hex someone with cayenne-pepper and dirt from some grave. Sure it sounds cool, but in reality, it's just dirt.

Left hand tantra is interesting, but so few of the original texts are translated and most of what is on the market today is nothing else but christian sensationalism.- It's interesting because it's external shell is not like the external shell of christianity, but underneath is the same idea about sacred rites and being clean before god.

Old world witchcraft is also incredible hard to find anything real about.
The few books about it are often in museum, not translated and 99% of it is just modern wicca bullshit mixed with a little bit of folklore.

The only thing I've been able to find that seems real is the Greek cursing tables. Real in that sense that we actually have archaeological evidence of it, we have historical sources commenting on it as well as some of the original texts having survived. Although often just in fragments.

Desecrated wrote: You can't actually hex someone with cayenne-pepper and dirt from some grave. Sure it sounds cool, but in reality, it's just dirt.

You can, actually, and it's not even that difficult with the right training. Every object in existence has hidden Psychic Qualities, which Agrippa aptly called Occult Virtues. The correct manipulation of these Qualities, via the correct application of the objects which possess them, is the heart and essence of practical Herb Craft, Ritual Magic, and even Alchemy.

In an occult reality, nothing is ever just anything.

Desecrated wrote:Left hand tantra is interesting, but so few of the original texts are translated and most of what is on the market today is nothing else but christian sensationalism.- It's interesting because it's external shell is not like the external shell of christianity, but underneath is the same idea about sacred rites and being clean before god.

That doesn't sound like the Tantras I remember. The Aghori are not very concerned with "being clean before god," as much as they are with breaking free from the shackles of Maya. I myself would not call covering the body with cremation ash and wearing human bones as jewelry very clean.

All mystic paths lead to The All, though. Comparing everything to Christianity just because Christianity is the most popular Monad religion isn't really accurate, or wise for that matter, because quite a lot of things are quite a bit different from Christianity. The destination does not equal the road you take to get there.

But it seems like you've already decided on what you want and where you want to go, if you're so dissatisfied with everything else. If that is so, why are you looking for a paradigm, a book, a teacher, or whatever it is that you are looking for? Learn your skills from where ever you can, and build your own magic. If you know where you want to go, all you have to do is figure out how to get there, and you don't need some secret ancient "black magic" grimoire to do that.



~:Shin:~

Desecrated wrote:I keep reading and reading, grimores, forbidden and banned books, secret books of black magic and bla bla bla.
It's all the same angels, demons and maybe a little bit of satan sprinkled on top.

Isn't there any real black magic?

It sounds like you've been doing a lot of reading. How much practice are you doing? Which rituals are you working? How many masters have you sought out in the mystery traditions? Which spirits have you evoked so far? What did they tell you about "black" magic? Obviously you don't have to answer these questions here, but I don't think you'll find the energies you're looking for in books or on the internet; I think you need to deal with them face to face. And based on your dismissal of African diasporic practices, for instance, it seems you may be missing the forest for the trees right now. Gris-gris is "just dirt" like a hollow-point bullet is "just metal" [wink]

Shinichi wrote: That doesn't sound like the Tantras I remember. The Aghori are not very concerned with "being clean before god," as much as they are with breaking free from the shackles of Maya. I myself would not call covering the body with cremation ash and wearing human bones as jewelry very clean.

Yeah, but what is the end result of all that. You break your own taboos. You free yourself. and then what?
These people believe in a god. That is why they are doing this, to get closer to god.

All mystic paths lead to The All, though. Comparing everything to Christianity just because Christianity is the most popular Monad religion isn't really accurate, or wise for that matter, because quite a lot of things are quite a bit different from Christianity. The destination does not equal the road you take to get there.

But it seems like you've already decided on what you want and where you want to go, if you're so dissatisfied with everything else. If that is so, why are you looking for a paradigm, a book, a teacher, or whatever it is that you are looking for? Learn your skills from where ever you can, and build your own magic. If you know where you want to go, all you have to do is figure out how to get there, and you don't need some secret ancient "black magic" grimoire to do that.

I'm not comparing to christianity per se. It's just that every book I find has christian elements in it. I would love to find something that isn't infested with christianity.
And something that doesn't have any white magic in it either.

the_spiral wrote:

Desecrated wrote:I keep reading and reading, grimores, forbidden and banned books, secret books of black magic and bla bla bla.
It's all the same angels, demons and maybe a little bit of satan sprinkled on top.

Isn't there any real black magic?

It sounds like you've been doing a lot of reading. How much practice are you doing? Which rituals are you working? How many masters have you sought out in the mystery traditions? Which spirits have you evoked so far? What did they tell you about "black" magic? Obviously you don't have to answer these questions here, but I don't think you'll find the energies you're looking for in books or on the internet; I think you need to deal with them face to face. And based on your dismissal of African diasporic practices, for instance, it seems you may be missing the forest for the trees right now. Gris-gris is "just dirt" like a hollow-point bullet is "just metal" [wink]

I can't practice anything, because I don't know what to practice.
Should I practice white magic and call down angels and hope that they can tell me about black magic. Because those are the only spells/rituals I can find.

The demons in the goetica and the other grimores are basically powerless trolls and goblins that might do you a favor or two if you scare them with the name of god.

There has to be some way to get in contact with them without using virgin parchment, holy staff made out of cane with gods name and all that mumbo.

Desecrated wrote:Yeah, but what is the end result of all that. You break your own taboos. You free yourself. and then what?
These people believe in a god. That is why they are doing this, to get closer to god.

Some things exist whether you believe in them or not, my desecrated friend.

As for what to do when you are liberated from the shackles of your own mind and the illusions of the world, well, that is a very good question with a very simple answer. You do whatever you want, because you finally can.

Desecrated wrote:I'm not comparing to christianity per se. It's just that every book I find has christian elements in it. I would love to find something that isn't infested with christianity.

You are not going to find many decent spiritual traditions that have no elements of Christianity, because Christianity is on its good days a decent paradigm with many good and almost universal spiritual principles, a number of which were even borrowed from its pagan predecessors. Yoga, being thousands of years older than Christianity, is not "infested" with any part of the West's most popular religion.

Instead of trying to escape Christianity specifically, perhaps you would make more progress by simply looking for spiritual and occult truths where ever they exist, both inside of and beyond Christianity. I have my own problems with the church, but even liars and asses can speak wisdom every now and then.

Desecrated wrote:And something that doesn't have any white magic in it either.

Your obsession with black magic baffles me. There is no white magic or black magic.

Magic is a collection of tools and skills that can be applied any circumstance or goal, those things being decided by the Magician who possesses those tools and skills.

In real life, there is no black or white anything. There is only circumstance. I have cursed people, I have healed people, and I have ignored people so that I can focus on developing my own self both as a person and as a Magician. All of that was me, and not the magic that I use. There is no good and bad Magic, just good and bad people.

Desecrated wrote:I can't practice anything, because I don't know what to practice.

You can practice a lot of things. You can practice meditation, or energy work, or develop the plastic imagination, or learn spiritual travel. Develop yourself first, then worry about which spirits you will talk to and how.



~:Shin:~

Why do you want to learn "black" magic? What does black magic mean to you? Is there a specific goal in life that you want to reach? Do you want to have the power to remove obstacles from your life in general? Do you want to have power over other people?

I can't practice anything, because I don't know what to practice.
Should I practice white magic and call down angels and hope that they can tell me about black magic. Because those are the only spells/rituals I can find.

I can't tell you what to practice because I still don't know what you hope to gain from the "black magic" you seek. I can empathize with your frustration but I think it's a frustration borne from false expectations rather than a failure of every occult tradition on the planet. What you're experiencing is a common pitfall of dilettantism. You're not going to find a book that will give you infernal powers or induce madness without dedicated ritual action involved. Reading about a path is not the same as walking it, and nothing works until you start working it. I can tell you from my own experience there are paths and beings out there that can help you access limitless depths of experience far beyond any book or grimoire, but they're not likely to reveal their secrets to you—or even reveal themselves at all—if you dismiss them out of hand as "just dirt" and "trolls and goblins" before attempting any meaningful engagement with them. Right now you're like a person complaining because you read a bunch of restaurant menus and you're still hungry. Go inside and eat something!

As long as you believe graveyard dirt won't work for you it most likely won't. It does for me.

Magic isn't plain and boring - it's life itself and all that's included in it. It's a multicolored, multifaceted world where the unbelievable is a daily occurrence.

You're not going to find what you're looking for in a book. You most likely won't find it on a public forum either. Forget just plain black magic - you want pitch black. Do you have any idea what that will do to your soul? Do you care? Do consequences matter?

You're looking at the world with the wrong set of eyes. I know it's a cheesy example but 'reach out with your feelings, Luke.' What's also implied in that is that not everyone is built or created to be a Jedi.

Shinichi wrote:
In real life, there is no black or white anything. There is only circumstance. I have cursed people, I have healed people, and I have ignored people so that I can focus on developing my own self both as a person and as a Magician. All of that was me, and not the magic that I use. There is no good and bad Magic, just good and bad people.

Albert fish kidnapped a little girl, rapped her, killed her and eat her, And not necessary in that order.

And then wrote about it in great detail and sent the letter to her parents so they would know exactly how much their daughter suffered.

That is just black no matter how you look at it. There is no circumstance where that could be a good thing.

So what is the magical equivalent of child rape and torture? Because evil exists in this world.

Frumens wrote:Why do you want to learn "black" magic? What does black magic mean to you? Is there a specific goal in life that you want to reach? Do you want to have the power to remove obstacles from your life in general? Do you want to have power over other people?

I hate not knowing.

the_spiral wrote: Right now you're like a person complaining because you read a bunch of restaurant menus and you're still hungry. Go inside and eat something!

I would love to read a restaurant menu, if I could find the damn restaurant.
But just now it's all just fucking mcdonalds-.
All these places promising real, homemade, traditional and ancient food, BUT it's just common fucking take out ever time. No matter how you dress up a bic mac, it's still just a bic mac.
I'm looking for steak.

RoseRed wrote:As long as you believe graveyard dirt won't work for you it most likely won't. It does for me.

You're not going to find what you're looking for in a book. You most likely won't find it on a public forum either.

I understand the principle behind it. But what I mean is, that it is only dirt until you assign a value to it yourself.
I'm looking for something that is real, no matter what I think.

Forget just plain black magic - you want pitch black. Do you have any idea what that will do to your soul? Do you care? Do consequences matter.

NO!, I don't know, because I can't find anything about it. [wink]

I understand the principle behind it. But what I mean is, that it is only dirt until you assign a value to it yourself.
I'm looking for something that is real, no matter what I think

That's not the principle behind it. Graveyard dirt is collected in a specific manner. It is a specific thing. It is created in it's collection. You can increase and focus what you want to do with it BUT graveyard dirt is graveyard dirt. It's not just any ground that you happen to scoop up out of a graveyard.

How about gravity? You're stuck to the skin of the planet whether you believe in it or not. If you jump up you will come back down. You don't have to believe. That's only one of natures laws.

And to give you a straight up answer - yes, there is real black magic. As above - so below. Which also means that so below - as above. There are equivalents to the horrors that people commit in the mundane. The bigger issue is - magic can do so much more damage when it's wielded in such a manner. These aren't things that are shared or taught simply because someone doesn't like not knowing about it. I'm sorry but that's the truth of it.

Desecrated wrote:

Frumens wrote:Why do you want to learn "black" magic? What does black magic mean to you? Is there a specific goal in life that you want to reach? Do you want to have the power to remove obstacles from your life in general? Do you want to have power over other people?

I hate not knowing.

I'm sorry, but that is a childish and piss poor reason for wanting to learn what you have declared the "magical equivalent of child rape and torture." If that is truly what you seek, then with every bit of salt I am worth I pray that you shall never find it.

What you are asking for is not Black Magic and Sorcery, it's metaphysical insanity and "evil" has little to do with it.



~:Shin:~

Desecrated wrote: I hate not knowing.

Do you want to learn truly fearsome magic? What if you could make a pact with this deity? Is this dark enough for you?

Frumens wrote: Do you want to learn truly fearsome magic? What if you could make a pact with this deity? Is this dark enough for you?

Is that Kali? Beautiful picture of her, if it is. [thumbup]

RoseRed wrote:

And to give you a straight up answer - yes, there is real black magic. As above - so below. Which also means that so below - as above. There are equivalents to the horrors that people commit in the mundane. The bigger issue is - magic can do so much more damage when it's wielded in such a manner. These aren't things that are shared or taught simply because someone doesn't like not knowing about it. I'm sorry but that's the truth of it.

This is indeed the bare bones truth. There's plenty of "real black magic" out there however you want to define that term. It's just not made publicly available to dilettantes or people looking for cheap thrills because black arts are dangerous in the wrong hands. You think we don't have a big enough collection of astral nasties hanging around already due to people's half-assed dabbling? But I'm also of the opinion that if you look long and hard enough, you'll eventually find (or more precisely, attract) exactly what you're looking for. Hope you're ready when it finds you.

I think it already might have. There's been a difference in him for days now and he's acting very out of character.

Clockwork_Ghost wrote:

Frumens wrote: Do you want to learn truly fearsome magic? What if you could make a pact with this deity? Is this dark enough for you?

Is that Kali? Beautiful picture of her, if it is. [thumbup]

The deity is Vajrakilaya. I think it would be good for Desecrated to form a relationship with him because, although he is very fearsome, everything he does is motivated by compassion.

Shinichi wrote:
I'm sorry, but that is a childish and piss poor reason for wanting to learn what you have declared the "magical equivalent of child rape and torture." If that is truly what you seek, then with every bit of salt I am worth I pray that you shall never find it.

What you are asking for is not Black Magic and Sorcery, it's metaphysical insanity and "evil" has little to do with it.

Really. I think it is the best reason to do any learning to be honest.
Without that drive we would still be in the middle ages.

RoseRed wrote:
That's not the principle behind it. Graveyard dirt is collected in a specific manner. It is a specific thing. It is created in it's collection. You can increase and focus what you want to do with it BUT graveyard dirt is graveyard dirt. It's not just any ground that you happen to scoop up out of a graveyard.

Your explanation is better then mine. But we are on the same page here.

How about gravity? You're stuck to the skin of the planet whether you believe in it or not. If you jump up you will come back down. You don't have to believe. That's only one of natures laws.

Good. Now what are some evil natural laws, or evil ways of using the natural laws. Or evil was of breaking them.

And to give you a straight up answer - yes, there is real black magic. As above - so below. Which also means that so below - as above. There are equivalents to the horrors that people commit in the mundane. The bigger issue is - magic can do so much more damage when it's wielded in such a manner. These aren't things that are shared or taught simply because someone doesn't like not knowing about it. I'm sorry but that's the truth of it.

Yes. I'm starting to see that.

BTW, Is there a dark way of hermeticism described anywhere, or does one have to find that way themselves.

Shinichi wrote: What you are asking for is not Black Magic and Sorcery, it's metaphysical insanity and "evil" has little to do with it.

I think your knowledge of magic is limited.