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I've noticed that most forms of magick has something to do with spirits.
It can be ancestral, spirits of the dead, ghosts, nature spirits, things like demons and angels and so on.

BUT, is there any form of magick that does not use spirits?

Any specific type of magick or just general? I have heard that you are able to perform magick by just being spiritually advanced enough to manipulate energy and program your aura. Of course, I am still learning myself but I feel it's a fairly reasonable assumption to make.

Much of Chaos Magick core theory is about the use of the subconscious, and the essence of belief. The same goes for Atheistic Satanism - no spirits, only your own mind. There are others, but I'm in a bit of a rush right now and don't have the time to look up the names. Some would argue that spirits are just an extension of the self - a projection of a desired result so that we can communicate with an external force in our requests, rather than simply talking to ourselves.

findingtruth wrote:Any specific type of magick or just general? I have heard that you are able to perform magick by just being spiritually advanced enough to manipulate energy and program your aura. Of course, I am still learning myself but I feel it's a fairly reasonable assumption to make.

Yeah, you are right, there are a couple of eastern schools that don't use spirits.

Clockwork_Ghost wrote:Much of Chaos Magick core theory is about the use of the subconscious, and the essence of belief. The same goes for Atheistic Satanism - no spirits, only your own mind. There are others, but I'm in a bit of a rush right now and don't have the time to look up the names. Some would argue that spirits are just an extension of the self - a projection of a desired result so that we can communicate with an external force in our requests, rather than simply talking to ourselves.

Someone needs to create a atheistic chaos magic system.

I'm sure somebody will correct me if I'm wrong but an Aethiestic Chaos Magic system would go against most of the systems underlying principles.

As far as my understanding goes,and I've only dabbled in the system to this point, Chaos workers believe in whatever gnoisis is useful for them at a certain point. Want to conduct an ancient Egyptian ritual as a Priest of Ra ? Then for the length of the ritual you believe mind and body in the Holiness of Ra. Conducting a Catholic exorcism ? Then The Father,Son and Holy Ghost are the Tri-corners of your faith.

Removing God(s)/Goddess('s) or any Higher Power would nullify alot of that systems power or usefulness.

There's tons of magic that doesn't rely on spirits, but avoiding spirits sort of defeats the purpose of most classical ideas of magic. The Shaman/Wizard/Magi is a person who stands between this world and the otherworld, communicating with the denizens of both and learning the ways of both. A lot of old schools, particularly western schools (including shamanistic and witchy traditions) even go so far as to say that you're not doing real magic until you start working with spirits and spirit teachers.

But yeah. There's tons of magic that doesn't rely on spirits. Bardon's entire first book, particularly most of the first eight steps, cover the development of personal skills and abilities that are your own and do not come from any spirit. Witchcraft and nature traditions have things like Herbcraft, Seers and such. Chaos Magick, and things like Psionics are good.

I will say this, though: I have learned more about the nature of magic from the denizens of the otherworld than any mortal man has even begun to speak. Keep that in mind when you choose that you don't want to work with them.



~:Shin:~

Milembarr wrote:I'm sure somebody will correct me if I'm wrong but an Aethiestic Chaos Magic system would go against most of the systems underlying principles.

You could just say that all these gods are just in your head. We all have the possibility to be god, to be the entire universe and just work from there.

Shinichi wrote:
But yeah. There's tons of magic that doesn't rely on spirits.

Please give an example or two.

{quote]
Witchcraft and nature traditions have things like Herbcraft, Seers and such. Chaos Magick, and things like Psionics are good. [/quote]

And yet lots of witchcraft deals with spirits, seers definitely can rely on spirits and in some sense most people who collect herbs probably has some belief in nature spirits and/or nature as a spirit.

Keep that in mind when you choose that you don't want to work with them.

I'm not saying that I have anything against spirit. I'm just asking.

Desecrated wrote:

Shinichi wrote:
But yeah. There's tons of magic that doesn't rely on spirits.

Please give an example or two.

...I did.

Desecrated wrote:

Witchcraft and nature traditions have things like Herbcraft, Seers and such. Chaos Magick, and things like Psionics are good.

And yet lots of witchcraft deals with spirits, seers definitely can rely on spirits and in some sense most people who collect herbs probably has some belief in nature spirits and/or nature as a spirit.

Witchcraft and Wizardry also deals with crafts like Incantation, something I'm particularly fond of, which has virtually nothing to do with spirits directly. I am a natural born Seer and my capacity to See has absolutely nothing to do with the influence of spirits, though I learned from them how to make better use of the craft. As for herbs, just look up Plant Alchemy if you don't wish to work with the Plant Spirits. Same general principles, or at least a lot of the same principles, but Alchemy works more with energies and essences than with the spirit intelligences of the materials.



~:Shin:~

Desecrated wrote:I've noticed that most forms of magick has something to do with spirits.
It can be ancestral, spirits of the dead, ghosts, nature spirits, things like demons and angels and so on.

BUT, is there any form of magick that does not use spirits?

I've practiced magic without spirits for about 9 years.
To me, the spirit thing is the new and weird.

P.S.: The spirit-based methods are the "mainstream" ones, since... well, since prehistoric times.
That's why many practitioners walk paths like these.

Aren't practitioners of tantric yoga also at least at first working with their own selves and not invoking external spirits?

cyberdemon wrote:Aren't practitioners of tantric yoga also at least at first working with their own selves and not invoking external spirits?

Isn't every path of magic is about inner work(ing)?

Haqim wrote:

cyberdemon wrote:Aren't practitioners of tantric yoga also at least at first working with their own selves and not invoking external spirits?

Isn't every path of magic is about inner work(ing)?

Hah. Good point.

cyberdemon wrote:Aren't practitioners of tantric yoga also at least at first working with their own selves and not invoking external spirits?

Yes. That's why I mentioned Bardon - his work is basically Tantra Yoga, developed through the theoretical and cultural lens of Western Magic. Self-Mastery, Spirit Work, and Incantation - in that order.

Haqim wrote:

cyberdemon wrote:Aren't practitioners of tantric yoga also at least at first working with their own selves and not invoking external spirits?

Isn't every path of magic is about inner work(ing)?

No. Most people on forums like this have grown up in the comforts of the Western Mystery Tradition, with all the Love and Flowers that come with it and enough God to feed the world ten times over. The rest of the occult world isn't always so centered on mysticism or religion.



~:Shin:~

Shinichi wrote:No. Most people on forums like this have grown up in the comforts of the Western Mystery Tradition, with all the Love and Flowers that come with it and enough God to feed the world ten times over. The rest of the occult world isn't always so centered on mysticism or religion.

I think you misunderstood me.

When I said "inner working" I meant the theory of the traditional (Western AND Eastern) micro- and macrocosm.

Magic is always begins / ends with - and in - the mage (shaman, or call it whatever you want).
These are just my opinions, of course.

Haqim wrote:

Shinichi wrote:
Magic is always begins / ends with - and in - the mage (shaman, or call it whatever you want).

There is a lot of people that thinks magic is something that is out there in the world. Maybe you can tap into it but most of the time you are using tools to direct the magic, but it's never really inside you.

Many religions sees miracles as the god working through them, but they don't really have any powers of their own.

Well, but if you define magick as theurgy or at least theurgy as significant and fundamental part of magick, which is the case, then you cannot avoid spirits. You may define them in materialist terms but what you are doing is opening yourself for the astral world and anything that is there. Spirits can be defined in many different terms and you can perceive everything (including yourself) as pure manifestation of energy and nothing else but still, some forces behave in an intelligent and indenpendent manner, also interacting with other people so it's not like it's all in the mind. I mean, it is, but not only your mind and most if not ALMOST everything happening outside your head. I would say that those methods that may be considered not relaying on spirits relay on God and his manifestations. It's also valid in yoga. But it's clearly not atheistic. All people that I met and possessed any "special powers" were in communion with at least one spirit or force. At least that's what they claim. And those that refused to accept such worldview or those relations were not able to prove anything extraordinary. I mean, if someone can affect my consciosness in a dramatic way, as only strong drugs can reproduce, that person claims also to be in contact with something higher or just external then themselves. What it means is that when you advance on a path (no matter which path is it), you open yourself to other dimensions of reality and paranormal stuff just starts to happen and can become your integral part of life. It's just this, your senses catch up on more then most people. You just become aware of things that affect, influence and manipulate everyone else. And that's a treasure, responsibility and danger at once. Even Buddhism that is presented in Europe as atheistic is not really so in Buddhist societies. If you really want something atheistic then you can try Zen. But it's still a moralistic system in some sense, even though some people in the West refuse that's the case. I happen to know one guy practicing Zen for many years, including in Japan and SE Asia and I can feel that he started to "glow" with radiant and positive, healing energy but still, he talks a lot about love and compassion. So it means that through ascetic practices he surrenders himself to abstract positive energy. So it may be atheistic in some sense but still is clearly what most mystics would call God.

Well, it's fine to be sceptical but when you start to notice that the universe is filled with living entities and energies outside what we usually call the universe, why remain stubborn? The only reason I see is lack of first-hand experience but... maybe it's a matter of luck or old truth that "the master will seek out those who are ready". Personally, I used to be a militant atheist but I couldn't persuade myself that what I'm experiencing is only a subjective thing, becuase it was validated with others with utmost scientific rigour. I mean, I had an experience and asked someone what he sees, feels, where's the source of that sensation and it was 100% consistent, even he noticed something that I didn't, so for me, it's without doubt.

TBH, why you are interested in spirituality if you don't believe in existence of the spiritual?

I wish you guys would stop putting words in my mouth.

I've never said anything about my personal view on spirits. I was just asking out of curiosity.

Haqim wrote:Magic is always begins / ends with - and in - the mage (shaman, or call it whatever you want).

Read you some Agrippa and study the craft of Natural Magic. Magic is both macro- and microcosmic.

Petrichor wrote:Well, but if you define magick as theurgy or at least theurgy as significant and fundamental part of magick, which is the case, then you cannot avoid spirits.

That isn't the case, though. You clearly haven't read many of Desecrated's posts if you think that he is a conventional Theurgist. And even so, traditional Theurgy is just one of many ways to practice the spiritual side of magic. Really, traditionally, it is primarily the Greek way and little more, except that Greek culture has been such a big influence on the rest of the world now. In addition to that, I know several Theurgists who are not presently working with spirits, because spirit work in Theurgy is an advanced subject that takes years of preliminary training.

Petrichor wrote:TBH, why you are interested in spirituality if you don't believe in existence of the spiritual?

Spirits are not synonymous with spirituality, though. I interacted with nature spirits as a child before I even knew that the word spirituality existed. I've encountered plenty of sorcerers and others who work with spirits and who are very much not spiritual people.

The spirits themselves are not inherently spiritual in this context. They are simply intelligent beings that live in an incorporeal world.



~:Shin:~

Desecrated wrote:I wish you guys would stop putting words in my mouth.

I've never said anything about my personal view on spirits. I was just asking out of curiosity.

Sorry I feel like I was lured into believing that you have pretty materialist, down-to-earth worldview. Still, my comment can be seen as general in nature and of some use to anyone who will now or in future take interest in that question. Including, in that case, rethorical questions.

About the spirits. I strongly feel that invocations in most basic rituals are meant to be invocing somthing. Also, I shouldn't rush with putting spirits in front of spirituality although, there's some point to what I wrote.

I've always found the following helpful about this recurring question.

Frater U.'.D.'. wrote: "Are there spirits?"
"In the spirit model, yes."
"And in the energy model?"
"In the energy model there are subtle energy forms."
"And what about the psychological model?"
"Well, in the psychological model we are dealing with projections of the subconscious."
"What happens in the information model, then?"
"In the information model there are information clusters."
"Yes, but are there spirits now or not?"
"In the spirit model, yes."

More detail here: Models of Magic

Petrichor wrote: materialist, down-to-earth worldview.

What would be the fun in that? [gz]

what about runes?

i've been working with them for a soon to be two years now, and i don't perceive them as personalities . they seem to be great and strong streams, but not spirits.
the spirits that "talked to me" so far felt completely different than the runes... more related to me, human being, in a way.

...i still don't understand it really, but runes just don't seem to be of the same "fabric" as spirits...

palindrom wrote:what about runes?

i've been working with them for a soon to be two years now, and i don't perceive them as personalities . they seem to be great and strong streams, but not spirits.
the spirits that "talked to me" so far felt completely different than the runes... more related to me, human being, in a way.

...i still don't understand it really, but runes just don't seem to be of the same "fabric" as spirits...

You're right in that they are different, though some people work to treat them as spirits. Some of the Seidr folk, for example. The Runes, in any form, belong to the magical practice of Incantation. There are many different kinds of Rune Magic and Incantation, at that. Galdr of the Norse, Kabbalah of the Jewish tradition utilizing the Hebrew Alef Bet, Kotodama of the Japanese traditions utilizing the occult applications of Kanji. Even the Sacred Symbols of many Native American and similar cultures are similar.

Incantation is one of my favorite forms of magic, and one of the most potent that I have experienced. It's a very beautiful thing.



~:Shin:~