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uriel is the light. And yet he is to the north, which is usually the earth, darkness, pentacle, cold. And so on.

Wouldn't muriel be a better choice?

Also RAPHAEL is in front? too the east? Which is the direction of the sword. Yet rafael is usually seen with a staff since he is the healer.
Shouldn't he be to the south?

Gabriel is where he should be, the blue angel, the cup, the water but also the ocean and the strength that it is.

Michael should be in front. He has the sword.

Under which paradigm are you referring?

Why any of the four "guardian angels"?
LBRP can be used with the "nine demons" as well. Paradigm differences, belief differences. Go with your intuition - that's more likely to be what'll work for you rather than exactly what's been handed down in regurgitated grimoires and organized-religion rites.

Stukov wrote:Under which paradigm are you referring?

Most.

cyberdemon wrote:Why any of the four "guardian angels"?
LBRP can be used with the "nine demons" as well. Paradigm differences, belief differences. Go with your intuition - that's more likely to be what'll work for you rather than exactly what's been handed down in regurgitated grimoires and organized-religion rites.

There is a right way and a wrong way to do things.

Desecrated wrote:

cyberdemon wrote:Why any of the four "guardian angels"?
LBRP can be used with the "nine demons" as well. Paradigm differences, belief differences. Go with your intuition - that's more likely to be what'll work for you rather than exactly what's been handed down in regurgitated grimoires and organized-religion rites.

There is a right way and a wrong way to do things.

That's your point of view.

Mine is simpler. You invoke the protection of who you are allied with. Your cheatcode is to affiliate yourself directly to Administrator Adonai - you can do exactly what the "disrespecting demonologists" of the past were doing without being absolutely disrespectful to anyone in general. Then you can call upon either the alliance of Angels, or the ranks of the Demons, but neither can refuse to acknowledge the Creator.

Use your imagination and your courage. You're a human being, a player on this massive Earth game. Don't think so lowly of yourself, you're an experienced mage after all.

cyberdemon wrote:

Desecrated wrote:

cyberdemon wrote:Why any of the four "guardian angels"?
LBRP can be used with the "nine demons" as well. Paradigm differences, belief differences. Go with your intuition - that's more likely to be what'll work for you rather than exactly what's been handed down in regurgitated grimoires and organized-religion rites.

There is a right way and a wrong way to do things.

That's your point of view.

Mine is simpler. You invoke the protection of who you are allied with. Your cheatcode is to affiliate yourself directly to Administrator Adonai - you can do exactly what the "disrespecting demonologists" of the past were doing without being absolutely disrespectful to anyone in general. Then you can call upon either the alliance of Angels, or the ranks of the Demons, but neither can refuse to acknowledge the Creator.

Use your imagination and your courage. You're a human being, a player on this massive Earth game. Don't think so lowly of yourself, you're an experienced mage after all.

But I'm not asking for ways to modify it. I'm asking why it's being taught the way it is.

Desecrated wrote:But I'm not asking for ways to modify it. I'm asking why it's being taught the way it is.

The Golden Dawn surely reckon they've found a "safe" and "working" route that is in accordance to their beliefs - and that's why they teach it like that. It's their modification.

I disagree.

Desecrated wrote:
But I'm not asking for ways to modify it. I'm asking why it's being taught the way it is.

Well I cant answer specifically, but the answer I heard when I first read your question on OP was "for historical reasons or thére are historical reasons".

Vovi wrote:I disagree.

Good.

Why

cyberdemon wrote:

Desecrated wrote:But I'm not asking for ways to modify it. I'm asking why it's being taught the way it is.

The Golden Dawn surely reckon they've found a "safe" and "working" route that is in accordance to their beliefs - and that's why they teach it like that. It's their modification.

AAh. But why.

nick farrell, who seems to know an lot about the golden dawn, its hystory and development, writes in his book "magical imagination":

before me, raphael:
"before me" refers to the future. raphael means "god has healed". we are asking that go will heal us and guide us. he is also the sun angel in the western mystery tradition and therefore the initiator into tiphareth.

behind me is gabriel:
this refers to the past. gabriel is the ruler of the moon. we are miaking him the guardian of our unconscious mind and preventing aour past from destroying us either now or in future. his name "god is my strenght" tells us to build our life not on our past but on the foundation of god.

to my right hand, michael:
michael means "who is a god". he gives us the image of our inner kingdom (the right side is attributed to this, explains pali) as matching that of heaven.

to my left hand uriel:
uriel wasthe angel of the mysteries. his name means *fire of god" and by placing him as the guardian of gate of the earth we are allowing the earth (the outer kingdom, explains pali) to be our teacher. the "fire of god" is the serpent force represented by the staff of the kerux.



the chassidian kabbalist friedrich weinreb writes about the northern side being the side of the body and the southern side being the side of the spirit, as well; but he places in his book "wunder der zeichen - wunder der sprache" (approx: miracles of the symbols - miracles of language)
- the angel uriel in the east, because god's light comes from the east
- the angel michael in the south, for reasons similar to the one given by farrell
- the angel gabriel in the north, because we need god's strenght in the exile which is our existence on earth
- the angel raphael, strangely, is not mentioned - but weinreb was no magician, so he didn't work with rituals like the KP; for him it was all about the message in the bible.
if you read the bible according to weinreb, everything happening in the north (e.g. all these wars between peoples) means your own conflicts with material existence; everything happening in the south refers to processes concerning your spiritual growth; etc...

pali

I thank you for that text.

Desecrated wrote:

cyberdemon wrote:

Desecrated wrote:But I'm not asking for ways to modify it. I'm asking why it's being taught the way it is.

The Golden Dawn surely reckon they've found a "safe" and "working" route that is in accordance to their beliefs - and that's why they teach it like that. It's their modification.

AAh. But why.

Why would they not try to popularize their own methodology? Why would they ever talk about the original methods instead of their own versions? The LBRP, as all magickal rituals go, are highly personal and customizable to each individual mage's needs/requirements/beliefs. The Golden Dawn finds their method to have a greater percentage of success when worked with their set of beliefs, than other versions which are possibly incompatible with their beliefs.

cyberdemon wrote:The Golden Dawn finds their method to have a greater percentage of success when worked with their set of beliefs, than other versions which are possibly incompatible with their beliefs.

But how and why?

Desecrated wrote:

cyberdemon wrote:The Golden Dawn finds their method to have a greater percentage of success when worked with their set of beliefs, than other versions which are possibly incompatible with their beliefs.

But how and why?

They researched it? Practiced it? Trial and error? Then they published books via their organized religion?
Yeah.

Desecrated has a point - if the Occult logic cannot be shown to be sound, the method is basically nonsense.

Personally I would not use the LBRP with the daemons - i would be an entirely different ritual composed by myself to the same aim. I feel like adapting something that is very specifically an aerial working into one of the depths is a bit of a strange route to go.

cyberdemon wrote:'The LBRP, as all magickal rituals go, are highly personal and customizable to each individual mage's needs/requirements/beliefs.'

I'd strongly disagree here. Taking stuff out of context, and hammering in new God names etc is the worst way to go. Although some can be adapted and work, ideally each ritual should be built from the ground up to embody the essence of the work. Essence is the key word - it is through this you make true contact with the Spirits and Gods you are working with effectively.

Also I can think of numerous examples of rites that must be performed as is or have pretty terrible consequences. These include the Phoenix Rite and the Toad Bone Rite within my own tradition. Also, in Quimbanda and Palo Mayombe for example, there are numerous examples of non adaptable rites that are aimed at a very specific spirit or outcome. Yes some methods are transferable.. some skills transferable.. but a copy paste approach will cause issues.

Thank you palindrom that was informative. Im not a Cabbalist but I find their works quite useful for someone who spends most of his time 'in the dark' as it were.

Sypheara wrote:

cyberdemon wrote:'The LBRP, as all magickal rituals go, are highly personal and customizable to each individual mage's needs/requirements/beliefs.'

I'd strongly disagree here. Taking stuff out of context, and hammering in new God names etc is the worst way to go. Although some can be adapted and work, ideally each ritual should be built from the ground up to embody the essence of the work. Essence is the key word - it is through this you make true contact with the Spirits and Gods you are working with effectively.

Also I can think of numerous examples of rites that must be performed as is or have pretty terrible consequences. These include the Phoenix Rite and the Toad Bone Rite within my own tradition. Also, in Quimbanda and Palo Mayombe for example, there are numerous examples of non adaptable rites that are aimed at a very specific spirit or outcome. Yes some methods are transferable.. some skills transferable.. but a copy paste approach will cause issues.

Copy paste won't work taking stuff out of context, obviously. You've to know the technicalities of what you're copying and modifying, after all. If you modify Ceremonial into Voodoo, there will be explosions. Think chemical reactions - would you put KOH and HCl into a reaction where you're trying to get salicylic acid? At the same time, just because putting carbon dioxide on powdered sodium phenate makes salicylic acid doesn't mean saponifying birch oil or gaultheria won't.

Secondly, why waste time experimenting from the ground when there are enough material in paradigms that are already established?

Think we commenting across purposes here - I am arguing that is how it is, your chemical reaction example is correct. My issue would be that most people arn't capable of taking syncretic thought seriously and with the considered and careful nature required to do it justice. You see far, far more bad practices especially online than good ones.

An example of this from a 'paradigm' perspective would be Westerners working with Kali without the cultural context only to switch to some other flavour of the week deity the next, in an offensive, profane way is a good example. Gods smashed into ritual without any thought of where those beliefs originated for an intellectual exercise, without any instruction from the Gods and Spirits themselves beforehand because it would be 'cool'. Shifting Spirit positions about on a sigil without changing the sigil itself, therefore disrupting it, because its 'good enough'. Just some examples i can remember recently from around the web. In other words, half arsed attempts.

Alot of rituals and magickal practices are designed with specific worldviews and approaches in mind - yes they are highly personal.. to the person / group who initially wrote them and therefore are, in a certain manner, already inflexible. They are written to embody that mindset, the very framework of the ritual could be a means of invoking the particular powers using sacred numbers, geometry, sigils etc that is teaching specific.

Many times from the ground up is actually a good way of saving time rather than wasting it trying to smash square pegs into round holes. It enables you to tailor something specific and powerful to your purpose - and not have to bother with the downside of trying to make a pre existing method work, only having to abandon it when you realise its more work to maintain / fix conflicts than just create afresh. If you have some basic understanding of sacred numerology, some common use sigils, some ritual 'basics' it is not hard to come up with your own rituals that have powerful effects even on their first attempt.

Desecrated wrote:I thank you for that text.

you're welcome : )

I have to agree with a couple of the latter posts here.
I keep getting the argument, "If it works, it works," but knowing how and why, and what is actually working are some of the most important things in a rite. There's little point in doing a regurgitated ritual if it doesn't work for you, and if you can't figure out why it doesn't work, you won't figure out a way to improve upon it. I actually find a lot of flaws in the LRPs, from my own perspective, and it really is a lot of work trying to go through and reconfirm their work and correspondences, and learning why they used the specific version they do.
Just because it "works", neither means it's working right, or powerfully.

Haelos wrote:I have to agree with a couple of the latter posts here.
I keep getting the argument, "If it works, it works," but knowing how and why, and what is actually working are some of the most important things in a rite. There's little point in doing a regurgitated ritual if it doesn't work for you, and if you can't figure out why it doesn't work, you won't figure out a way to improve upon it. I actually find a lot of flaws in the LRPs, from my own perspective, and it really is a lot of work trying to go through and reconfirm their work and correspondences, and learning why they used the specific version they do.
Just because it "works", neither means it's working right, or powerfully.

And for me, for example I have no need to "summon" someone or something, so my interest is in knowledge. How things fundamentally work is what I seek, I understand the urge to know. Doing this makes you see the bare bones different paradigms and in what way things are similar or different.