*raises hand* I have a question
Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:34 pm
If you had to choose: what is the fundamental nature of all existence?
CHAOS ORDER
please choose one, and explain.
CHAOS ORDER
please choose one, and explain.
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Evolution of Chaos, i.e. Entropy. Order is Born of Chaos, so it is returning from whence it came. There is irony in that progression also involves regression.Stukov wrote:Without order nothing can exist; without chaos nothing can evolve.
I'm not talking about the nonexistence of things within existence. I am talking about the nonexistence of existence itself. You could say nonexistence is analogous to 'Nothing'. Then one would need to define 'Nothing'. You could say Nothing is the absence of everything. Then you would be left trying to define 'everything' so you could know what 'nothing' is.blindwake wrote: Spida, what do you mean by negative existence? I understand that in terms of negative existential statements, but I'm not sure that's what you mean.
Your statement about negative existence residing outside of 4D space time makes me think of files on a hard disk which are loaded into a program. The files are "outside of time" until they are actually utilized by something which has sequence. I wouldn't call that non existing though. More like not instantiated.
Part of the problem here is defining an abstract concept such as 'nothing'. It is difficult to determine whether or not something can emerge from nothing if it is unclear exactly what 'nothing' is. And what rules apply here, if any, remembering that laws governing the Micro, and Macro worlds are not the same, and thus not necessarily logical, or rational.neofight wrote:It isn't that something came from nothing, its something came from something.
Why and how would this happen? By what mutable laws? By some axiom?Magically Consciousness either Forms via the Unmanifest(Energy), or arises out of absolute nothingness.
Particles popping in and out of existence really isn't that spectacular. Suppose this is a simulation of sorts. Then suppose that all particles are stored in a list. If you want to make particles pop in and out of existence it's as simple as adding and removing them from said list.I believe there are Quantum experiments where particles appear to pop in and out of existence, but I'm not sure about the application of that idea here. Although it seems that rules prior to creation of time and space would be more applicable to the Quantum world.
Apparently that's an actual math concept. I'll have to look into it.Zero Dimensional Point
I definitely agree regarding space, but I'd say that time is an axiom of consciousness. In fact, I'd say that space arises from specific patterns of consciousness over time; e.g. it being restricted to only observing changes in 3D data. Regarding space in the physical sense, I'd argue that it's just a special case of reality that comes about from physical laws imposing restrictions on observable data. If you've ever looked into linear algebra, I prefer to think of space in the mathematical sense.Consciousness can create Space and Time. We do it all the time when we dream. There is no actual 'space'. It's an illusion.
I strongly disagree with your statements about matter. Think about what you define matter in terms of. We measure matter based on consciousness. If you take matter and then pull away all perceptible things such as weight, visible motion, visible size, etc., there is absolutely nothing left; it is completely undefined. You could argue that matter is just a pile of numbers, but then you have to remember that numbers still only exist in terms of symbols, counting based on how many objects you see, etc. For this reason, I'd say consciousness has to come before matter, because without consciousness there is no way to define matter. You need a measurement device for data to have any sense. Consciousness is the base measurement device. When we use rulers, etc., they are used as an extension of consciousness.If you're suggesting that consciousness is immortal and exists regardless of matter this may be true, but without matter and senses to know itself, it doesn't actually exist at all. Consciousness is dependent on matter to exist, and since there is an order to matter, then the answer is: order before chaos. Chaos is just another word for "I don't know yet"
You are correct. A precise definition of nothing does appear to be difficult at the least. I agree though that 'undefined' is a good substitute for a definition for the time being.blindwake wrote:Spida,
I'm not sure you can define "nothing". That's kind of a contradiction. "nothing", basically by definition, has to be undefined.
I also don't think that's correct to define "nothing" as what's left if you remove "everything". 1 - 1 does not equal "undefined". It equals "0"; a placeholder.
Besides, you can't actually remove things from existence anyway. Let's say you have a single object floating in a void. If you remove that object, the object doesn't just disappear, rather, it's replaced by more void. This is similar to how if you erase a pencil you'll get paper rather than "nothing".
I'm also not sure it's proper to say that it's possible for things to exist outside of spacetime. If there is no time, there's no way to measure anything anyway. I'd say that sequence / time is an axiom of consciousness. It's almost an oxymoron to say there is consciousness, but that it is outside of time. Then what is consciousness perceiving if not a moment of time / a glimpse of some scene.
To be honest, I always thought that theoretical physicists just like to sound smart. You might be right that it's just a poor description. When they fail to explain something in a meaningful way, I assume it's equivalent to how some religious people say "god works in mysterious ways", "god is simultaneously everywhere at once". The statements are ultimately just for "wow" value. They are emotionally charged but mean nothing. I don't even try to rationalize. I assume the premises are wrong, and I reinvent the wheel; if I do not, and the premises actually are wrong, then I will spend eternity rationalizing nonsense.Maybe you cannot remove things from Existence, but you can regress to a time before those things existed. This is exactly what is implied(I believe)when Theoretical Physicists say that time and space did not exist Pre Big Bang.
Yeah, but time is just an index. When you pick an eternal state, all you're saying is that t = constant (think about t in the sense of a physics equation which models the world). Time still exists, you're just not moving it.Now if you remove 'time' from the equation what you end up with is an "Eternal State" where paradoxically something needs to exist outside of time in order to initiate time(and space), i.e. the expansion, or Inflation of the Universe.
This fits nicely with the reality resize model.So in the context of what I am talking about here at this stage of existential evolution even the 'void' itself does not exist as it *is* 'space' which hasn't been created.
While you're right in a sense, in that we can't easily think of higher geometric dimensions, I think you've made a logical error regarding the time dimension. Basically, you've made certain assumptions about time in your paradigm, then you've realized they don't work. Instead of realizing that this means that your initial assumptions are incorrect, you've decided that it must be simply beyond you to make them work. It's like assuming that for n = 5, n + 2 = 8. But when you realize that 5 + 2 is actually 7, you start trying to make the assumption fit (rationalize it) instead of simply changing n to 6.I suppose there is difficulty here as we are metaphorically 'Programmed' for this Four Dimensional Reality Construct so to think outside of it requires a bit of conditioning. Is it correct to think in this manner? I believe so.
Shawn Blackwolf wrote:You are all mental masturbating...
I don't need to debate it...
I just *enter* the state of no time on the Otherside ,
like any shaman or witch worth their salt , and access
the information necessary which co exists "all at once"
for lack of a proper term...
Why debate , what you can experience ?
( never understood why people liked philosophy or existential psychology )
No criticism meant , just stating my experiential truth... [wink]
Cam Revillot wrote:That's not what the chaos in chaos magick stands for, if that's the subtext
If this was directed to me , which I believe it was , then to reply ,neofight wrote: Since I cant decipher your code, it means nothing to me. For all I can know youre just some mad person waving around a bunch of symbols that mean nothing, declaring it to reveal some secret truth just to validate your philosophy (which it seems that I don't find to be logical).
I'm seeing a few scenarios here involving different concepts of Time. I will only go into a couple. First you have Physical, or Macrocosmic Time. And you also have 'Perceived' Time, Microcosmic Time as it relates to consciousness. Macrocosmic Time is synonymous with 'Change", and Microcosmic Time is also change, but it is change 'within', i.e. a passing of moments.blindwake wrote: While you're right in a sense, in that we can't easily think of higher geometric dimensions, I think you've made a logical error regarding the time dimension. Basically, you've made certain assumptions about time in your paradigm, then you've realized they don't work. Instead of realizing that this means that your initial assumptions are incorrect, you've decided that it must be simply beyond you to make them work. It's like assuming that for n = 5, n + 2 = 8. But when you realize that 5 + 2 is actually 7, you start trying to make the assumption fit (rationalize it) instead of simply changing n to 6.
I think the time dimension is the most basic dimension. You cannot fathom its non-existence because all of reality is defined in terms of it. Meaning, that without time, reality also doesn't exist. You can define any n-dimensional structure and it will make geometric sense, but it simply cannot exist unless it is defined at some moment. Time is like a painter's canvas, and all the other dimensions are the colors drawn on to it.