[QUOTE=Illuminous]But whos to say it is? (If your reflection ever talks back let me know)
I have a good exercise that involves gazing into a mirror at your reflection. Its called the beast within. Its used to access your primal self (since it can be a good source of power)[/QUOTE]A good technique I myself have used for years to enter gnosis. It enables me to reach atavistic states quite easily. *[back-tracking]* Commenting upon my aforementioned statement in the last reply; we all must remember reality is always in a constant state of flux, it is never in a concrete state. Change insures reality continues. Stasis equals reality destruction perse'. Reality is what IS experienced, not what is thought. "For many this is a very hard concept to swallow". The riddle I was presenting via the mirror was as follows: Who's to say we are not the reflection to the one staring back at us. That our opposite is the real and we are not, that we are the imagined, or presented image. Anyway this is just a little amusing exercise for me to pass the day so don't read to much into what I'm saying. It's just Good mental gymnastics at work!
I wasn't saying that reality was static. I understood about the mirror thing after you explained it the first time. Sorry I was trying to be ironic or funny or something and it backfired (I think I'll stop trying to be funny)
No problem....... I did see your ironic sense of humor, and liked it! It's refreshing to still see spiritual seekers keeping *it real* and balancing it with a small dash of funny-spice! So please by all means keep the sense of humor coming!!! :twisted:
[QUOTE=die before death]whats better an armchair magician or someone who actually goes out and does it? Unless by imagination you mean masturbation I suppose, which is still an act.
Lets not get into the ramifications of what if someone is doing something illeagle in that case, because we know that would defeat the point of focus on Self Interest.[/QUOTE]
Masturbation doesn't take much imagination.
I must agree that personal experience is more relevant and valuable upon self reflection compared to read theory or contemplation, but (as you also identify) there is a cut-off point due to society, and after that, reality. That's the problem. Eventually, one must retreat inside to find answers which will rarely be supported by reality as it seems to exist right now. If these concepts are not tested, then how can we have any confidence in our self? Is there a line of delusion?
[QUOTE=die before death]Its obvious to anyone of intelligence that one isn't going thru this process just to be a perverted weirdo by the end of the day.[/QUOTE]
Yes. Perversely, we court discomfort to increase our comfort. If it can be imagined as a circle which surrounds us; the larger the comfort zone the more space we have, the more freedom we have, the more people we can accept into our world without feeling overcrowded. Through pushing the boundaries we become more accepting of areas of life which lead to understanding. Ultimately, an effort to move towards a perverted life is actually going to allow one to support others and grow stronger (in reality) through them, as the real affirmation of one's true skills. Of course this depends on the reasons, as you have mentioned; only good intelligent reasons to push in a certain direction are going to empower the pervert.
There is also the sense of fun which increases in all areas through such practice.
Wise men find comfort in the strangest of places.
[QUOTE=die before death]I like to search every area of myself, w/ impliments made of rubber haha jk! but what I mean is that I think that its best to take a good look at everything in the psyche, everything. Things like vulnerability to love are even harder things to deal with for some than the prospects of said rubber impliments in unsaid places.[/QUOTE]
Hehe! Indeed.
[QUOTE=Illuminous]Jas, That quote was from 8mm with Nicolas cage.[/QUOTE]
Ah yes! I remember now.
[QUOTE=Ludi]Oh yes, I agree the power of the imagination is underestimated, but manifesting something goes beyond merely imagining it. By "transformation" I mean transformation of the self. To imagine traveling to a place is not the same, has not the same depth, as actually physically going there. Imagining an action does not, in my experience, have the same effect as actually physically doing it. Of course, it may be I have an especially feeble imagination![/QUOTE]
Don't beat yourself up there Ludi!
Perception of the self can be changed through affirmations and visualisation, provided one holds a strong understanding of one's self concept and how it relates to begin with. Of course, the further we drive from reality, the stronger our will has to be to allow the new concept to last. Starting with something that can easily be 'proved'/supported by reality is a logical beginning if one wishes to change.
Though I would question whether it is possible to ever change the actual self; that many aspects of personality which we believe to stem from our individuality were possibly reactively built around us due to external life events. Whatever lies at the core is a lot more simple. Simple enough to experience pure bliss for eternity.
[QUOTE=AJAtheMetastasis]When looking into a mirror - have you ever wondered what the image of yourself may be thinking as he's looking back at you.[/QUOTE]
I thought of this when I read your post, AJAtheMetastasis:
--- Shadow Of A Man ~ Mudvayne.
Mirror, mirror, upon the wall
I'm asking you, who is the most confused, of them all
Mirror, mirror, subservient twins
Screams back at me, you, you sick, flawless mind
I wanna break you!
(Yeah!) You're a clever one
Do you reflect me, or do I reflect you
Are you inside of another world
I wanna break through!
(Yeah!) You're a clever one
Is this a tool?
And I'm not through
To find another plane, I'm or just a shadow of a man
Superficial tool
To suppress your vanity of weak
When you don't love yourself
If this is made for, all your sign
I'll break your existence, and cut through mine!
(Yeah!) You're a clever one
Are you a tool?
And it's not through
To find another plane, I'm just a shadow of a man
Are you my brother, or you look like me
Trapped inside another world
My last win
Just a superficial tool, just a fucked up entity
When you don't love yourself
Mirror, upon the wall, am I a reflection of you?
Mirror, upon the wall, are you staring back?
Understanding, as a place within my world
On this side
Are you a fool?
And it's not through
To find another plane, I'm just a shadow of a man
Are you my brother, or you look like me
Trapped inside another world
My last win
Are you a tool?
Cause that's just true
To find another plane, I'm just a shadow of a man
Just a superficial tool, just a fucked up entity
We carry on ourselves
---
[QUOTE=Illuminous]
Die before death, But even with the best preparation you can be overwhelmed sometimes. Theres some forces that just take your head clean off and it takes a lot of time to get it back together again. Everyones got things within that they'd rather not face and they're afraid of. My problem is I'm drawn and repelled by the darkness both at the same time. Maybe thats just where my head is at the moment though. [/QUOTE]
The first step towards getting over it is being overwhelmed ;P
I'll admit, I've had my moments of mania and lunacy, and even periods of said behavior, but I survived it, and I feel it was nessesary. Also a fond lot of memories if you can believe that.
As it is, I didn't much prepare for my mind bending experiences as much as is suggested, and made it all the more wild the ride.
Is your problem the sense that this is dangerous? Embrace it!
...or get a better idea of what works for you I guess. ;p
Jas wrote:
Masturbation doesn't take much imagination.
It doesnt, but it can.
I must agree that personal experience is more relevant and valuable upon self reflection compared to read theory or contemplation, but (as you also identify) there is a cut-off point due to society, and after that, reality. That's the problem. Eventually, one must retreat inside to find answers which will rarely be supported by reality as it seems to exist right now. If these concepts are not tested, then how can we have any confidence in our self? Is there a line of delusion?
I personally don't mind having several realities circling around my psyche that dont nessesarily match up at all. I'd say either and every reality is delusional on some level.
Yes. Perversely, we court discomfort to increase our comfort. If it can be imagined as a circle which surrounds us; the larger the comfort zone the more space we have, the more freedom we have, the more people we can accept into our world without feeling overcrowded. Through pushing the boundaries we become more accepting of areas of life which lead to understanding. Ultimately, an effort to move towards a perverted life is actually going to allow one to support others and grow stronger (in reality) through them, as the real affirmation of one's true skills. Of course this depends on the reasons, as you have mentioned; only good intelligent reasons to push in a certain direction are going to empower the pervert.
There is also the sense of fun which increases in all areas through such practice.
I'm always curious what these practices are that people do which cause "lunacy." If anyone cares to discuss them I would be very interested to know. Thanks.
[QUOTE=Ludi]I'm always curious what these practices are that people do which cause "lunacy." If anyone cares to discuss them I would be very interested to know. Thanks.[/QUOTE]
If one puts a whole lot of faith into building a bridge to another place, but they make the structure too heavy to hold itself, then it can collapse, leaving the brave adventurer on the other side with no solid path of return.
[QUOTE=Ludi]I'm always curious what these practices are that people do which cause "lunacy." If anyone cares to discuss them I would be very interested to know. Thanks.
[/QUOTE]You can take any (belief) and make it your own, for a time, and immerse yourself totally in the chosen (belief) until it becomes organic. When such has been successfully acomplished you can use it as desired. Let's say I want to believe in *ONE* god - with enough effort and mental commitment I can have myself believe in that *ONE* god whether it be true or not, does not matter; what does matter is that it is important and believed by me on a personal level, at least for a time. It is when I refuse to let go of (supposed truth) that this technique can become dangerous and lead to psychological break-down, or mental-illness. "Truth is fluid - never static". Religion is a very good example of mass mental-illness.
That's interesting, thanks for giving me that example, AJA. So you actually found yourself unable to function in your day to day life because of these beliefs? People are rarely affected in such a way by mainstream religion, because their beliefs are in general supported by the culture and so they find no opposition to their worldview, and function just fine.
[QUOTE=Ludi]Thanks, but I'm afraid that tells me next to nothing....can you translate, give an example, etc?[/QUOTE]
AJA writes it perfectly:
[QUOTE=AJAtheMetastasis]You can take any (belief) and make it your own, for a time, and immerse yourself totally in the chosen (belief) until it becomes organic. When such has been successfully acomplished you can use it as desired. Let's say I want to believe in *ONE* god - with enough effort and mental commitment I can have myself believe in that *ONE* god whether it be true or not, does not matter; what does matter is that it is important and believed by me on a personal level, at least for a time. It is when I refuse to let go of (supposed truth) that this technique can become dangerous and lead to psychological break-down, or mental-illness. "Truth is fluid - never static". Religion is a very good example of mass mental-illness. [/QUOTE]
The mind needs to be exercised to keep it healthy. It needs to breathe. So it must be opened (we accept, learn and strive to understand) and closed (we use); this cycle should be kept up, and stagnation avoided.
[QUOTE=Ludi]So you actually found yourself unable to function in your day to day life because of these beliefs? People are rarely affected in such a way by mainstream religion, because their beliefs are in general supported by the culture and so they find no opposition to their worldview, and function just fine.[/QUOTE]
Also, and I can't say for sure because I am only one individual, but I would assume that most religious people are followers and don't actually 'use' religion like some occultists use beliefs.
Hmm, I wish I knew the right questions to ask to get some answers here....what do you mean by "use" beliefs and in what way does "using" beliefs cause one to go mad? I'm just having a heck of a time understanding what you're getting at here, sorry... :p My density...
[QUOTE=Ludi]That's interesting, thanks for giving me that example, AJA. So you actually found yourself unable to function in your day to day life because of these beliefs? People are rarely affected in such a way by mainstream religion, because their beliefs are in general supported by the culture and so they find no opposition to their worldview, and function just fine.[/QUOTE]LOL! That was amusing........ No I function fine in a society; I just have the courage to see the iniquities and insensate nature of man-kind, and recognize it's disfunction for what it is: LIMITATION.
Ok, but I was asking for examples of these practices which lead people to lunacy, I was actually hoping for some examples which people could provide from their own experience rather than anecdote. Thanks! maybe it should be a new thread....
[QUOTE=Ludi]Hmm, I wish I knew the right questions to ask to get some answers here....what do you mean by "use" beliefs and in what way does "using" beliefs cause one to go mad? I'm just having a heck of a time understanding what you're getting at here, sorry... :p My density...[/QUOTE]
I believe that there is a thread in the ceremonial magick forum regarding the dangers that occultists face.
Your confusion may lie in the fact that I accidentally added an 's' to the end of belief; I meant belief as a concept. Rather than following belief and allowing it to manipulate the believer, one should attempt to disbelieve everything through believing in everything; as this also contains belief in nothing. Once one has mastered belief and can use it through turning it into 'knowledge' (which is more about a working attitude and self hypnosis than anything) it will be shown that beliefs do initially cause beneficial change, but one should not build on these with too many beliefs that are unsupported by reality - going back to my bridge metaphor.
[QUOTE=AJAtheMetastasis]To desire life, or the ability to live from day to day is a BELIEF .................. And a very important one to I might add! :mrgreen:[/QUOTE]
Indeed. And there the danger does lie.
[QUOTE=Ludi]Ok, but I was asking for examples of these practices which lead people to lunacy.....[/QUOTE]
Ok. Decide not to buy into the propaganda of the human herd which states that their way is the best way and is the way things have always been.
After remaining in the shallow end of the pool decide you are going to high dive into a completely alien culture, but first cut off any escape route that you could take if things get to intense.
Is your problem the sense that this is dangerous? Embrace it!
Die before death, I've got a lot of mental rubbish I need to get clear of, which is getting in the way of me cementing my beliefs into something individual. I've been exposed to the herd mentality for so long that I'm only just finding my own individuality. Meditation is helping me through.
[QUOTE=Illuminous]Die before death, I've got a lot of mental rubbish I need to get clear of, which is getting in the way of me cementing my beliefs into something individual. I've been exposed to the herd mentality for so long that I'm only just finding my own individuality. Meditation is helping me through.[/QUOTE]
