Some doubts I have!
Some doubts I have!
First off, Hello all! I'm new here, and I pretend to stay and learn about the occult, not just created this account and will stop using it, anyways, I started studying magick, gathered a couple of books and I'm currently reading some of them, but with time some questions grew inside me, I know they are too advanced and I just want to clarify that I'm not trying to summon anything yet, I know it take years of practice and inner development, it's not something I want to do soon, anyway, to the questions!
My doubts are related to the whole summoning system:
1)When I see a sigil or a summoning ritual, where did it come from? who or what invented that sigil and why a sigil can communicate with it's related entity?
2) How do we know we are summoning something that the book is refering to? could be a wrong information on purpose so you can be screwed, how we know that when we are summoning an angel, that it's really an angel?
3) When you ask for a favor, you are in debt right? what kind of things you have to do to pay for your wish to be granted? I don't think they would do awesome favors for free
4) When you summon a spirit why it's constantly testing your protection and trying to break it? they don't like to be summoned?
My doubts are related to the whole summoning system:
1)When I see a sigil or a summoning ritual, where did it come from? who or what invented that sigil and why a sigil can communicate with it's related entity?
2) How do we know we are summoning something that the book is refering to? could be a wrong information on purpose so you can be screwed, how we know that when we are summoning an angel, that it's really an angel?
3) When you ask for a favor, you are in debt right? what kind of things you have to do to pay for your wish to be granted? I don't think they would do awesome favors for free
4) When you summon a spirit why it's constantly testing your protection and trying to break it? they don't like to be summoned?
Re: Some doubts I have!
Hello Draugen and welcome to the Forum.
I'd like to propose my own answers to what you raised in your post. The first thing is that, if you wish to succeed in the long run in the occult you have to develop basic skills and have a solid knowledge base. This will address all your concerns.
But, to find the general thread that runs through most of them, if you have a solid connection to the Divine and to positive spiritual forces then you need not be concerned about most of the issues you raised. In my personal practice and from my perspective, this is the spoke around which the wheel of everything else turns. By “Divine,” I do not necessarily mean Jehovah. There is an advanced practitioner on this site who is a priestess of Hecate. I worship Lord Shiva.
In traditional Ceremonial Magic the Hermetic view is that you are co-creating with the Divine because that power is in you. This is the secret of the 'Great I Am' as well as the central realization of Tantra & Kashmir Shaivism, “I am Shiva.”
So, what skills do you need & does it take years?
1) Self-hypnosis and the ability to enter into a trance: This is where magic happens. There are tons of books and videos on YouTube about this. Binaural beats are good to help train your brain.
2) Clairvoyance: I just posed a thread about this
3) Basic Energy Work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTLCdIkDaAk Learn Robert Bruce's methods.
4) Mediation: again, there are a ton of videos but focus mainly on learning basic grounding and centering
5) Ask for Higher help: this is in line with what I said above. Find a connection and reach out with the right attitude. Beings like the Devas/Angels are available to you but they are seeing you energetically. So respect and gratitude are important.
Does it take years? That depends on you but to reach an intermediate level and to be able to work with these beings does not take years. Although, to be truly advanced, no matter how much native talent you may have, will take time.
I'd like to propose my own answers to what you raised in your post. The first thing is that, if you wish to succeed in the long run in the occult you have to develop basic skills and have a solid knowledge base. This will address all your concerns.
But, to find the general thread that runs through most of them, if you have a solid connection to the Divine and to positive spiritual forces then you need not be concerned about most of the issues you raised. In my personal practice and from my perspective, this is the spoke around which the wheel of everything else turns. By “Divine,” I do not necessarily mean Jehovah. There is an advanced practitioner on this site who is a priestess of Hecate. I worship Lord Shiva.
In traditional Ceremonial Magic the Hermetic view is that you are co-creating with the Divine because that power is in you. This is the secret of the 'Great I Am' as well as the central realization of Tantra & Kashmir Shaivism, “I am Shiva.”
So, what skills do you need & does it take years?
1) Self-hypnosis and the ability to enter into a trance: This is where magic happens. There are tons of books and videos on YouTube about this. Binaural beats are good to help train your brain.
2) Clairvoyance: I just posed a thread about this
3) Basic Energy Work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTLCdIkDaAk Learn Robert Bruce's methods.
4) Mediation: again, there are a ton of videos but focus mainly on learning basic grounding and centering
5) Ask for Higher help: this is in line with what I said above. Find a connection and reach out with the right attitude. Beings like the Devas/Angels are available to you but they are seeing you energetically. So respect and gratitude are important.
Does it take years? That depends on you but to reach an intermediate level and to be able to work with these beings does not take years. Although, to be truly advanced, no matter how much native talent you may have, will take time.
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Re: Some doubts I have!
From another person. That is why you should study a lot of different sources and never just on.Draugen wrote:
1)When I see a sigil or a summoning ritual, where did it come from? who or what invented that sigil and why a sigil can communicate with it's related entity?
A person invented that sigil.
Always question what kind of person did this. Don't use symbols from mistress moonshadow (typical new age witch name) or someone you've found online.
The sigil is activated by you-
You don't.2) How do we know we are summoning something that the book is refering to? could be a wrong information on purpose so you can be screwed, how we know that when we are summoning an angel, that it's really an angel?
You're not asking them. You are commanding them.3) When you ask for a favor, you are in debt right? what kind of things you have to do to pay for your wish to be granted? I don't think they would do awesome favors for free
You try being forcefully dragged through dimensions and see how you like it.4) When you summon a spirit why it's constantly testing your protection and trying to break it? they don't like to be summoned?
They don't show up just because you draw a sigil.
That is just a mental symbol for you to focus on, It's there so that YOU are sure what you want to summon. And then you summon/create that being.
And then you have to get rid of it somehow.
Beginners Book List
http://www.occultforum.org/forum/viewto ... =2&t=39045
Information Resources
http://www.occultforum.org/forum/viewto ... 57&t=36162
Fundamental Development
http://www.occultforum.org/forum/viewto ... 57&t=37025
http://www.occultforum.org/forum/viewto ... =2&t=39045
Information Resources
http://www.occultforum.org/forum/viewto ... 57&t=36162
Fundamental Development
http://www.occultforum.org/forum/viewto ... 57&t=37025
Re: Some doubts I have!
And here we go again. It is, so to say, very dependent on the stage of “theory perspective”, where you are standing. I will go again with the classical perspectives of general spiritism and animism, but note that there are plenty of other perspectives, I will just try to give an impulse on how one can look onto this topic so that you may get your own picture (which is the most important part).Draugen wrote:First off, Hello all! I'm new here, and I pretend to stay and learn about the occult, not just created this account and will stop using it, anyways, I started studying magick, gathered a couple of books and I'm currently reading some of them, but with time some questions grew inside me, I know they are too advanced and I just want to clarify that I'm not trying to summon anything yet, I know it take years of practice and inner development, it's not something I want to do soon, anyway, to the questions!
My doubts are related to the whole summoning system:
1)When I see a sigil or a summoning ritual, where did it come from? who or what invented that sigil and why a sigil can communicate with it's related entity?
2) How do we know we are summoning something that the book is refering to? could be a wrong information on purpose so you can be screwed, how we know that when we are summoning an angel, that it's really an angel?
3) When you ask for a favor, you are in debt right? what kind of things you have to do to pay for your wish to be granted? I don't think they would do awesome favors for free
4) When you summon a spirit why it's constantly testing your protection and trying to break it? they don't like to be summoned?
Also, doubt and paranoia are one of the most annoying enemies you will encounter during your practice. Be prepared to face them as it is you who you are fighting as they both are emotions also based inside you.
In short, what are spiritism and animism?
Very bluntly spoken spiritism treats the entities and forces as external factors originating from the surrounding world or whatever plain while animism basically assumes their origin inside yourself and is the more psychological perspectives. Most common points of views are somewhat a hybrid form of those two mixed with specific cultural backgrounds of the individuals.
Now I will try to answer your questions considering both directions and how we would theoretically approach the matter:
Spiritism: Some time ago the one who wrote it down might have got it from an external entity or had a moment of inspiration where he got to draw it. Or he simply came up with it. Symbols (and sigils are no exception) often undergo a change of meaning during the ages, best example is the sun wheel, meaning that it meaning today might not be the same as it was 2000 years ago.1) When I see a sigil or a summoning ritual, where did it come from? who or what invented that sigil and why a sigil can communicate with it's related entity?
Animistic view: It was a human like you.
Summary: However you see it, from the point of the spiritism or the animism if he received it from an “external force” or as a shortly result of inspiration or just a joke, it is always a human who writes it down.
Hmm, this one is very difficult to answer simply based on the two paradigms, but I will try:2) How do we know we are summoning something that the book is refering to? could be a wrong information on purpose so you can be screwed, how we know that when we are summoning an angel, that it's really an angel?
Spiritistic view: Simply when the “thing” you call upon stands before you or makes you feel that it is here you know that it is here. Many synonyms for that type of awareness are going around, “astral senses”, “third eye”, “intuition”, etc. It is not uncommon to ask the summoned entity a question to verify its identity or using a special symbol which acts as sort of “filter” like the mentioned sigils.
Animistic view: Here you don’t really have the problem with the identity of the summoned thing as it will always be a projected part of yourself which you summoned. Ritual equipment and stuff therefore works as anchor so that the right “aspect” comes to the surface.
In regards to the wrong information, there is no real “correct” information, nobody can give you a 100% how it is perfect-assurance. Though there is always a kind of rough way in systems how to approach things and certain “teachers” tend to test their future students with wrong information or simply don’t give a fuck.
Sprititism: It depends a lot on the system and its entities, in many paradigms it is not uncommon to give some sort of sacrifice or offer beforehand or honor the entity you call upon regularly (like shinto). Even some sort of “partnership” might form. Bonds are also a form of sacrifice, don’t forget that!3) When you ask for a favor, you are in debt right? what kind of things you have to do to pay for your wish to be granted? I don't think they would do awesome favors for free
Animism: You don’t have to “pay” in a sense to make up for something, it also only serves as mental focus and depends on the paradigm and is also excluded in some systems (the commanding the spirit and drive it away then-way of desecrated would be an example for that)
Spiritism: Again it depends a lot on the system and the nature of the entity. Dragging a devil up from hell to do your bidding without a thank you or something like that might not bring them into a good mood. On the other hand, those constructs/entities are so abstract, so different that it is difficult to graps that we tend to project some things like anger or so upon them. And then there is this always present paranoia that you are tested even if you are not…4) When you summon a spirit why it's constantly testing your protection and trying to break it? they don't like to be summoned?
Animism: You are dealing with plains of your own nature which are very very deep down and when coming up without control they are even responsible for serious mental problems. Therefore a grounded mental state is required to deal with them to withstand what might be dragged up like emotions or traumata which you thought you buried long ago.
I hope this gives some thought impulses for your own picture. Don’t forget it is you who wants to shape his surrounding, himself and maybe the world if it is now with doing some strange symbols, calling upon unspeakable names or whatever you prefer.
bye bye
Re: Some doubts I have!
In response to #3
You can't create something out of nothing. The universe demands a sacrifice.
You can't create something out of nothing. The universe demands a sacrifice.
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The Only Constant is Change
--------------
1. What is a Magician
2. The Human Experience
3. The Jail, The House, and The Temple
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Magari vs Illuminati Conspiracy Theories
The Only Constant is Change
--------------
1. What is a Magician
2. The Human Experience
3. The Jail, The House, and The Temple
--------------
Magari vs Illuminati Conspiracy Theories
Re: Some doubts I have!
Personally, I happen to agree that many times sacrifices are demanded.
Not every belief or paradigm does.
Not every belief or paradigm does.
When my wings get tired I grab my broom.
Re: Some doubts I have!
In response to the other questions...
Magick is the result of a particular consciousness's relationship with the universe/reality/divine.
In order to fully understand someone else's particular sigil you have to be that person. You could come extremely close, but it will never be 100%. Certain sigils and rituals have the same effects across multiple consciousnesses, but thats partly due to the symbols and actions and patterns of the rituals themselves. Certain patterns and symbols and actions echo throughout time because they are the context for our entire reality. These sigils or rituals have power because they have been fundemental to the development of the human race since primitive times and possibly even before that.
However I never recommend utilizing someone else's rituals or sigils for the same purpose. The reason being that you will never know what kind of relationship this individual had with the divine when the sigil/ritual was created. The only way to come close to the original relationship is to follow that sigil/ritual all the way to the end and if the consequences at that point aren't desired, its too late.
Lastly..... Regarding protection, I personally have never understood this. There are situations we are presented with from the divine that can be extremely uncomfortable, however if our faith and intentions are pure than the divine will guide you all the way through it to the other side. In my experience I have utilized protection when I realized that I myself, was weak and susceptible to external influence. However, through development and the gaining of wisdom, all evils dissolve into nothing.
I've seen people use protection too much. Often the divine or entity or whatever you want to call it is trying to interact with you, your weaknesses and your ignorance. This is often seen as an attack when in reality its trying to heal and enlighten you to what you are. I have found that while my personal experiences have been incredibly intense and borderline suicide, when I refuse protection, leaving it all to faith in what I am and what the universe is I make the greatest leaps in development and enlightenment.
So in the end.... Use your own sigils, develope your own rituals, and have faith that you are truly one with the universe and it is only trying to turn you into that diamond, that ultimate realization of a human being, that most efficient consciousness that can exist, raising everything around it into a greater state of being.
Its simple really. If the universe didn't need you, you wouldn't exist.
Magick is the result of a particular consciousness's relationship with the universe/reality/divine.
In order to fully understand someone else's particular sigil you have to be that person. You could come extremely close, but it will never be 100%. Certain sigils and rituals have the same effects across multiple consciousnesses, but thats partly due to the symbols and actions and patterns of the rituals themselves. Certain patterns and symbols and actions echo throughout time because they are the context for our entire reality. These sigils or rituals have power because they have been fundemental to the development of the human race since primitive times and possibly even before that.
However I never recommend utilizing someone else's rituals or sigils for the same purpose. The reason being that you will never know what kind of relationship this individual had with the divine when the sigil/ritual was created. The only way to come close to the original relationship is to follow that sigil/ritual all the way to the end and if the consequences at that point aren't desired, its too late.
Lastly..... Regarding protection, I personally have never understood this. There are situations we are presented with from the divine that can be extremely uncomfortable, however if our faith and intentions are pure than the divine will guide you all the way through it to the other side. In my experience I have utilized protection when I realized that I myself, was weak and susceptible to external influence. However, through development and the gaining of wisdom, all evils dissolve into nothing.
I've seen people use protection too much. Often the divine or entity or whatever you want to call it is trying to interact with you, your weaknesses and your ignorance. This is often seen as an attack when in reality its trying to heal and enlighten you to what you are. I have found that while my personal experiences have been incredibly intense and borderline suicide, when I refuse protection, leaving it all to faith in what I am and what the universe is I make the greatest leaps in development and enlightenment.
So in the end.... Use your own sigils, develope your own rituals, and have faith that you are truly one with the universe and it is only trying to turn you into that diamond, that ultimate realization of a human being, that most efficient consciousness that can exist, raising everything around it into a greater state of being.
Its simple really. If the universe didn't need you, you wouldn't exist.
------------
The Only Constant is Change
--------------
1. What is a Magician
2. The Human Experience
3. The Jail, The House, and The Temple
--------------
Magari vs Illuminati Conspiracy Theories
The Only Constant is Change
--------------
1. What is a Magician
2. The Human Experience
3. The Jail, The House, and The Temple
--------------
Magari vs Illuminati Conspiracy Theories
Re: Some doubts I have!
Interesting text, reminds me a bit about Steiners Texts.
Regardless, I have a question about a part I did not understand:
Regardless, I have a question about a part I did not understand:
What exactly do you mean by that?however if our faith and intentions are pure
bye bye
Re: Some doubts I have!
Ramscha wrote:Interesting text, reminds me a bit about Steiners Texts.
Regardless, I have a question about a part I did not understand:What exactly do you mean by that?however if our faith and intentions are pure
I suppose I am referring to a lot here....
Integrity is important,
Selflessness,
A desire for purpose or to serve,
A knowledge that separation is an illusion.
What we don't want is intentions that are selfish. I've found that I can easily improve the overall situation for the group 100x easier than I'll ever be able to for myself alone. Any attempt to separate myself from the group or the universe/divine usually has negative consequences.
Pure intentions should be the intentions of the universe/divine themselves, acting through you.
Hope that helps or at least makese sense, I'm not 100% confident in my answer lol.
------------
The Only Constant is Change
--------------
1. What is a Magician
2. The Human Experience
3. The Jail, The House, and The Temple
--------------
Magari vs Illuminati Conspiracy Theories
The Only Constant is Change
--------------
1. What is a Magician
2. The Human Experience
3. The Jail, The House, and The Temple
--------------
Magari vs Illuminati Conspiracy Theories
Re: Some doubts I have!
It does in a way, thank you for trying even if you are not content with it. [happy2]magari wrote:
Hope that helps or at least makese sense, I'm not 100% confident in my answer lol.
bye bye
Re: Some doubts I have!
Now I need to research Steiner...
Name sounds familiar... but I did do 2 years in Bavaria.
Name sounds familiar... but I did do 2 years in Bavaria.
------------
The Only Constant is Change
--------------
1. What is a Magician
2. The Human Experience
3. The Jail, The House, and The Temple
--------------
Magari vs Illuminati Conspiracy Theories
The Only Constant is Change
--------------
1. What is a Magician
2. The Human Experience
3. The Jail, The House, and The Temple
--------------
Magari vs Illuminati Conspiracy Theories
Re: Some doubts I have!
Word!
Austrian.... I was close.
Austrian.... I was close.
------------
The Only Constant is Change
--------------
1. What is a Magician
2. The Human Experience
3. The Jail, The House, and The Temple
--------------
Magari vs Illuminati Conspiracy Theories
The Only Constant is Change
--------------
1. What is a Magician
2. The Human Experience
3. The Jail, The House, and The Temple
--------------
Magari vs Illuminati Conspiracy Theories