Some Hermeticism questions - LBRP, Bardon vs GD
Some Hermeticism questions - LBRP, Bardon vs GD
Recently I was reading some works from Golden Dawn. And I noticed that the LBRP is one of their fundamental practices. Moreover in the Golden Dawn Ritual Tarot it is the first exercise even before the relaxation and meditation exercises, and is said that the practitioner should master it and only then proceed on. So I wonder why many books go on to the meditation without any banishing techniques (for example Bardon)..is it really necessary? And as I get GD is supposed to be a Hermetic order, on the other hand Bardon teachings are supposed to be Hermetic as well, but those differ in someways. So what is Hermeticism exactly?
Re: Some Hermeticism questions - LBRP, Bardon vs GD
The LBRP and LIRP aren't really "banishing" rituals, in the usual sense. They're very similar to the elemental accumulation exercises presented by Bardon, though they rely on Angels and God, as well as incantations, instead of pure energy.RockDemon wrote:Recently I was reading some works from Golden Dawn. And I noticed that the LBRP is one of their fundamental practices. Moreover in the Golden Dawn Ritual Tarot it is the first exercise even before the relaxation and meditation exercises, and is said that the practitioner should master it and only then proceed on. So I wonder why many books go on to the meditation without any banishing techniques (for example Bardon)..is it really necessary? And as I get GD is supposed to be a Hermetic order, on the other hand Bardon teachings are supposed to be Hermetic as well, but those differ in someways. So what is Hermeticism exactly?
The Golden Dawn is a lot more than just Hermeticism, though that is their central focus. Bardon is exclusively Hermeticism.
And, finally, Hermeticism is essentially ancient Greek and Egyptian practice. I'm no expert on the history here, so if I'm mistaken, I'm sure Shinichi will come correct me.
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Tell me what you know about darkness, and I will tell you about the light.
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Selected Contributions;
Planetary Associations of Common Intoxicants
The Mysteries of Death
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"God is an imprecise name for the only thing in the universe that actually exists."
.
Tell me what you know about darkness, and I will tell you about the light.
.
.
Selected Contributions;
Planetary Associations of Common Intoxicants
The Mysteries of Death
https://hdagaz.wordpress.com/
Re: Some Hermeticism questions - LBRP, Bardon vs GD
Thanks a lot Haelos, well you do made a few things clear for me. But what do you think then why GD puts these exercise before the meditations ? And Bardon does it the other way.
Re: Some Hermeticism questions - LBRP, Bardon vs GD
In short: "Hermetic" refers to the worldview and current of metaphysical practices which stems from the cultures surrounding the Mediterranean Sea - particularly the confluence of the mystical and magical practices taught in the Ancient Egyptian temples and the the Mystery Schools of Ancient & Classical Greece. Influences also came in from further East - namely the Arabic world, but it's generally accepted that the Greek sages traveled as far as India to study with the Yogi's there.
This current moved East following the rise of Christianity, the masters of the age sought refuge in the Arabic world and many of the major texts were translated into Arabic, where they sparked something of a minor intellectual and spiritual renaissance - new orders were formed which had a strong influence on Sufism (esoteric Islam). It thrived here for centuries, and eventually the Crusades and the movement of Islam into Spain saw a re-opening of contact between Christian Europe and the Islamic world. This saw a flow of Hermetic texts back into Europe during the middle ages, arguably peaking during the Renaissance with the translating of much of the Hermetic canon into Latin, where it lead to an even wider interest in Hermetic thought and practices such as magic, alchemy and astrology.
That's a very brief description, entire series of books have been written about the history of Hermetic thought.
As for what exactly constitutes Hermeticism - generally speaking, especially as time has passed, the term has been associated with heavily ritualized magic, but that's not necessarily a strict definition - more a result of which teachings did and did not survive the passage of time and end up surfacing publicly.
Bardon's book is, in theoretical terms, fairly firmly grounded in Hermetic thought (although he avoids going too in-depth philosophically, as his works are very much practical in nature), with influences from the Mesmerism and New Thought movements which occurred over the 19th and early 20th century (primarily in his terminology).
Practically speaking, to give some background, the commonly accepted story by his students is that Bardon was an Avesh - basically, that Bardon the Adept was not the soul born into the body of Franz Bardon, but instead a more mature and attained soul which "walked-in" to that body (with both sides being willing, and with Bardon the Adept taking on the karma of the original occupant for that incarnation in the process). This allowed him to enter physical existence with his full memories of past lives and his spiritual faculties intact (in particular, it is alleged, his most immediately previous incarnation in Tibet).
I bring this up because you're right, the exercises given in IIH are very different from those practiced by most Hermetic groups of the era. This is because, if you accept the above explanation of Bardon's origin, they come from a very different source. Most of the GD and post-GD Hermetic orders practice rituals sourced from books on magic written in the late 18th and the 19th century - Levi, Barrett, etc. with some Eastern influences included by way of Theosophy.
Bardon's IIH exercises, on the other hand, are much more in line with Eastern Tantric practices (which supports the Avesh theory), with the exception that he leaves out the more physical training (transmitting that training would require whole additional volumes, and even then is probably something best left to personal instruction) and the spiritual anatomy and internal alchemical training (although his system compensates for them to a degree in it's overall design, this was probably done because such training can be dangerous without a teacher to guide it - my guess, although it is just a guess, that Bardon intended the trainee to seek out such training through contact with spiritual teachers after moving into the latter stages of IIH and beginning PME).
So whether it constitutes "Hermetic" or not is up to you, I suppose. Bardon did his best to leave his system as non-denominational as possible, so that it could be practiced by someone regardless of their particular religious inclinations. I believ the term Hermetic was used as that was the general name for practices of the type in Europe at the time (although it wasn't included in his original title at all - it was changed during translation as I recall).The cosmology is certainly Hermetic, in a somewhat brief manner, but could be easily adapted to fit most metaphysical systems. And historically speaking, Hermeticism has a long history of taking in practices which work from other systems and integrating them.
In short, I don't see any major contraindications between the two, and practiced IIH and the LBRP/MP rituals together for a few months at a period of time with no problems at all. Different systems just teach different things in different arrangements - find the one which feels right for you and yields positive results.
This current moved East following the rise of Christianity, the masters of the age sought refuge in the Arabic world and many of the major texts were translated into Arabic, where they sparked something of a minor intellectual and spiritual renaissance - new orders were formed which had a strong influence on Sufism (esoteric Islam). It thrived here for centuries, and eventually the Crusades and the movement of Islam into Spain saw a re-opening of contact between Christian Europe and the Islamic world. This saw a flow of Hermetic texts back into Europe during the middle ages, arguably peaking during the Renaissance with the translating of much of the Hermetic canon into Latin, where it lead to an even wider interest in Hermetic thought and practices such as magic, alchemy and astrology.
That's a very brief description, entire series of books have been written about the history of Hermetic thought.
As for what exactly constitutes Hermeticism - generally speaking, especially as time has passed, the term has been associated with heavily ritualized magic, but that's not necessarily a strict definition - more a result of which teachings did and did not survive the passage of time and end up surfacing publicly.
Bardon's book is, in theoretical terms, fairly firmly grounded in Hermetic thought (although he avoids going too in-depth philosophically, as his works are very much practical in nature), with influences from the Mesmerism and New Thought movements which occurred over the 19th and early 20th century (primarily in his terminology).
Practically speaking, to give some background, the commonly accepted story by his students is that Bardon was an Avesh - basically, that Bardon the Adept was not the soul born into the body of Franz Bardon, but instead a more mature and attained soul which "walked-in" to that body (with both sides being willing, and with Bardon the Adept taking on the karma of the original occupant for that incarnation in the process). This allowed him to enter physical existence with his full memories of past lives and his spiritual faculties intact (in particular, it is alleged, his most immediately previous incarnation in Tibet).
I bring this up because you're right, the exercises given in IIH are very different from those practiced by most Hermetic groups of the era. This is because, if you accept the above explanation of Bardon's origin, they come from a very different source. Most of the GD and post-GD Hermetic orders practice rituals sourced from books on magic written in the late 18th and the 19th century - Levi, Barrett, etc. with some Eastern influences included by way of Theosophy.
Bardon's IIH exercises, on the other hand, are much more in line with Eastern Tantric practices (which supports the Avesh theory), with the exception that he leaves out the more physical training (transmitting that training would require whole additional volumes, and even then is probably something best left to personal instruction) and the spiritual anatomy and internal alchemical training (although his system compensates for them to a degree in it's overall design, this was probably done because such training can be dangerous without a teacher to guide it - my guess, although it is just a guess, that Bardon intended the trainee to seek out such training through contact with spiritual teachers after moving into the latter stages of IIH and beginning PME).
So whether it constitutes "Hermetic" or not is up to you, I suppose. Bardon did his best to leave his system as non-denominational as possible, so that it could be practiced by someone regardless of their particular religious inclinations. I believ the term Hermetic was used as that was the general name for practices of the type in Europe at the time (although it wasn't included in his original title at all - it was changed during translation as I recall).The cosmology is certainly Hermetic, in a somewhat brief manner, but could be easily adapted to fit most metaphysical systems. And historically speaking, Hermeticism has a long history of taking in practices which work from other systems and integrating them.
In short, I don't see any major contraindications between the two, and practiced IIH and the LBRP/MP rituals together for a few months at a period of time with no problems at all. Different systems just teach different things in different arrangements - find the one which feels right for you and yields positive results.
"The path of the Sage is called
'The Path of Illumination'
he who gives himself to this path
is like a block of wood
that gives itself to the chisel-
cut by cut it is honed to perfection"
- DDJ, Verse 27
"It's still magic even if you know how it's done." - Terry Pratchett
'The Path of Illumination'
he who gives himself to this path
is like a block of wood
that gives itself to the chisel-
cut by cut it is honed to perfection"
- DDJ, Verse 27
"It's still magic even if you know how it's done." - Terry Pratchett
Re: Some Hermeticism questions - LBRP, Bardon vs GD
Thanks for the history, Rin. I enjoyed reading. In fact I find more similarities between some eastern traditions and IIH than between GD and IIH. Though I would say Bardon seems to be more like a mediating point between eastern and western traditions.
The original title of the IIH is The Path of a True Adept, however we meet the word "hermetic" throughout the book.
Well, I do the LBRP for a few days now, and don't find any contradictions at all as well, the practices combine effectively for me.
As I read through some books and explored some systems IIH seems to be the most efficient one. I mean if you complete that book you can go on with any system you would like without any worries and risk, and will be able to practice almost any type of magick. The only minus that I noticed in the IIH is that it leaves out some detailed techniques, but it is understandable as the book deals with so many topics. For instance it says sit in meditation , calm down the mind then repress the thoughts and reach the vacancy of mind. But he doesn't give any concrete techniques so I combine it with Shinichi's fundamental development and Benjamin Rowe's Scrying. Then the soul mirror work. It doesn't give an exact method to deal with negative attributes, in this practice I find useful some techniques from the Dream Yoga. Then there is the conscious breathing exercises, here comes in handy the Science of breath. And so on for the physical exercises, etc ... So IIH is sorts of a map, blueprint for me.
The original title of the IIH is The Path of a True Adept, however we meet the word "hermetic" throughout the book.
Well, I do the LBRP for a few days now, and don't find any contradictions at all as well, the practices combine effectively for me.
As I read through some books and explored some systems IIH seems to be the most efficient one. I mean if you complete that book you can go on with any system you would like without any worries and risk, and will be able to practice almost any type of magick. The only minus that I noticed in the IIH is that it leaves out some detailed techniques, but it is understandable as the book deals with so many topics. For instance it says sit in meditation , calm down the mind then repress the thoughts and reach the vacancy of mind. But he doesn't give any concrete techniques so I combine it with Shinichi's fundamental development and Benjamin Rowe's Scrying. Then the soul mirror work. It doesn't give an exact method to deal with negative attributes, in this practice I find useful some techniques from the Dream Yoga. Then there is the conscious breathing exercises, here comes in handy the Science of breath. And so on for the physical exercises, etc ... So IIH is sorts of a map, blueprint for me.
Re: Some Hermeticism questions - LBRP, Bardon vs GD
The Hermetic Philosophy is the worldview that we are primarily spiritual beings, living in a spiritual world, where "the natural world" includes both the physical and metaphysical planes and both are perfectly natural parts of the whole of Nature. The Hermetic Science is the scientific (ie, The Scientific Method) study of this multi-plane Natural world, in order to understand its principles and laws, both in physics and metaphysics. Hermetic Practice is the practical application of both the former, allowing the practitioner to engage in active spiritual evolution. All of this together is Magic, in the old sense of Egyptian Priests and Chaldean Magi. The Wisdom of Sages.
The core principles of Hermeticism are universal, because they are simple natural truths. These truths can be approached, learned, and applied in many ways and through many lenses, but the whole point of the Hermetic Ideal is the pursuit of Truth - the true personal experience of objective reality at its most beautiful levels.
That understood, the Bardon vs GD (the original, proper GD) thing isn't really "vs" at all. The GD utilizes ceremonial ritual to achieve initiation, the principles and powers of Natural Magick, so that even someone with no natural talent at all can construct the ritual correctly, perform it, and slowly get results. They banish the toxic energies and invoke the divine energies to strengthen your soul and achieve Equipoise, the perform the planetary rituals to achieve initiation into those energies, and do similar work. Bardon, on the other hand, teaches you direct energy work. You learn the soul mirrors and accumulations to achieve equipoise, you initiate into the planetary spheres via astral journeying and spirit work. So you see, they are very much the same thing at the end of the day - merely two different approaches to the same goal, two paths up the proverbial mountain.
Like Taiji Quan vs Karate. One soft and internal, one hard and external. Two different approaches to "Martial Arts." Yet, a master of either can kick your ass just the same.
~:Shin:~
The core principles of Hermeticism are universal, because they are simple natural truths. These truths can be approached, learned, and applied in many ways and through many lenses, but the whole point of the Hermetic Ideal is the pursuit of Truth - the true personal experience of objective reality at its most beautiful levels.
That understood, the Bardon vs GD (the original, proper GD) thing isn't really "vs" at all. The GD utilizes ceremonial ritual to achieve initiation, the principles and powers of Natural Magick, so that even someone with no natural talent at all can construct the ritual correctly, perform it, and slowly get results. They banish the toxic energies and invoke the divine energies to strengthen your soul and achieve Equipoise, the perform the planetary rituals to achieve initiation into those energies, and do similar work. Bardon, on the other hand, teaches you direct energy work. You learn the soul mirrors and accumulations to achieve equipoise, you initiate into the planetary spheres via astral journeying and spirit work. So you see, they are very much the same thing at the end of the day - merely two different approaches to the same goal, two paths up the proverbial mountain.
Like Taiji Quan vs Karate. One soft and internal, one hard and external. Two different approaches to "Martial Arts." Yet, a master of either can kick your ass just the same.
~:Shin:~
Re: Some Hermeticism questions - LBRP, Bardon vs GD
[lol] No, thanks.Shinichi wrote:Like Taiji Quan vs Karate. One soft and internal, one hard and external. Two different approaches to "Martial Arts." Yet, a master of either can kick your ass just the same.
Great, that is what I am always seeking, this assures I am on the right path.Shinichi wrote:The core principles of Hermeticism are universal, because they are simple natural truths. These truths can be approached, learned, and applied in many ways and through many lenses, but the whole point of the Hermetic Ideal is the pursuit of Truth - the true personal experience of objective reality at its most beautiful levels.
Thanks Shin
Re: Some Hermeticism questions - LBRP, Bardon vs GD
According to Hermetic principles, the negative attributes in development are classified under the Black Phase, aka Putrefaction.RockDemon wrote:The only minus that I noticed in the IIH is that it leaves out some detailed techniques, but it is understandable as the book deals with so many topics. [. . .] It doesn't give an exact method to deal with negative attributes
For a good place to start research, I highly recommend: The Black Sun: The Alchemy and Art of Darkness, by Stanton Marlan. It's an in-depth look at the links between the alchemical 'black phase' and psychological processes.
Free yourself from the seduction of words.
Re: Some Hermeticism questions - LBRP, Bardon vs GD
I'm probably nit-picking, but you definitely don't want to "repress" your thoughts during meditation :p The idea is to avoid letting them shift into focus and taking up your conscious attention, so that instead of being fed, they drift away and shrink (to paraphrase), not to actively work to hold them back. It's a very passive process - which can be frustrating at first.As I read through some books and explored some systems IIH seems to be the most efficient one. I mean if you complete that book you can go on with any system you would like without any worries and risk, and will be able to practice almost any type of magick. The only minus that I noticed in the IIH is that it leaves out some detailed techniques, but it is understandable as the book deals with so many topics. For instance it says sit in meditation , calm down the mind then repress the thoughts and reach the vacancy of mind. But he doesn't give any concrete techniques so I combine it with Shinichi's fundamental development and Benjamin Rowe's Scrying. Then the soul mirror work. It doesn't give an exact method to deal with negative attributes, in this practice I find useful some techniques from the Dream Yoga. Then there is the conscious breathing exercises, here comes in handy the Science of breath. And so on for the physical exercises, etc ... So IIH is sorts of a map, blueprint for me.
As for negative attributes, I believe his intent was for the individual to cancel them out with positive attributes, as he discusses in his section on autosuggestion, as this redirects the focus of the mind from the negative to the positive. So instead of saying eg. "I am not sad," you say "I am happy." There's no major difference in their direct meaning, but by focusing on the positive you subconsciously direct your attention towards it.
You're right, he could go into more detail about specific exercises, but you can only fit so much in one book. An entire book could be written about any of the single steps of training in IIH if you wanted to get detailed enough, but that would probably be too intensive for most people just starting out. The more I look at the IIH system, the more I realized that there is a lot in it's design which I believe was specifically organized the way it was to specifically fit the target audience and the medium.
But yeah, it doesn't hurt to use outside sources to supplement the training - in fact I think more or less all practitioners of his system do it to some degree.
"The path of the Sage is called
'The Path of Illumination'
he who gives himself to this path
is like a block of wood
that gives itself to the chisel-
cut by cut it is honed to perfection"
- DDJ, Verse 27
"It's still magic even if you know how it's done." - Terry Pratchett
'The Path of Illumination'
he who gives himself to this path
is like a block of wood
that gives itself to the chisel-
cut by cut it is honed to perfection"
- DDJ, Verse 27
"It's still magic even if you know how it's done." - Terry Pratchett
Re: Some Hermeticism questions - LBRP, Bardon vs GD
Great, thanks I love book recommendationscorvidus wrote:According to Hermetic principles, the negative attributes in development are classified under the Black Phase, aka Putrefaction.RockDemon wrote:The only minus that I noticed in the IIH is that it leaves out some detailed techniques, but it is understandable as the book deals with so many topics. [. . .] It doesn't give an exact method to deal with negative attributes
For a good place to start research, I highly recommend: The Black Sun: The Alchemy and Art of Darkness, by Stanton Marlan. It's an in-depth look at the links between the alchemical 'black phase' and psychological processes.
But one thing, Corvidus, I am not quite familiar with alchemy. Do you think little knowledge of it will suffice for The Black Sun?Re: Some Hermeticism questions - LBRP, Bardon vs GD
Yes , it took me for a while to understand this process but it seems that I am starting to get hold of it recently. I feel like I will be able to proceed to the 2nd step soon.Rin wrote: I'm probably nit-picking, but you definitely don't want to "repress" your thoughts during meditation :p The idea is to avoid letting them shift into focus and taking up your conscious attention, so that instead of being fed, they drift away and shrink (to paraphrase), not to actively work to hold them back. It's a very passive process - which can be frustrating at first.
Yes autosuggestion is a very powerful tool, though I didn't reach the step 2, I looked through it and tried it with my smoking habit. And indeed if you can get the right phrase to autosuggest it will work wondersRin wrote:As for negative attributes, I believe his intent was for the individual to cancel them out with positive attributes, as he discusses in his section on autosuggestion, as this redirects the focus of the mind from the negative to the positive. So instead of saying eg. "I am not sad," you say "I am happy." There's no major difference in their direct meaning, but by focusing on the positive you subconsciously direct your attention towards it.
In the book Bardon states that he arranged it for the most busy man of the world, and if one has enough time can try doing more than one exercise , so I suppose Bardon will only approve the supplemented the training.Rin wrote:You're right, he could go into more detail about specific exercises, but you can only fit so much in one book. An entire book could be written about any of the single steps of training in IIH if you wanted to get detailed enough, but that would probably be too intensive for most people just starting out. The more I look at the IIH system, the more I realized that there is a lot in it's design which I believe was specifically organized the way it was to specifically fit the target audience and the medium.
But yeah, it doesn't hurt to use outside sources to supplement the training - in fact I think more or less all practitioners of his system do it to some degree.
Re: Some Hermeticism questions - LBRP, Bardon vs GD
Missed this before. In short: read step two. [yay] The IIH is a complete system, for the most part. It just takes more meditation than more descriptive works. In step one you make the soul mirrors, in step two you start balancing them out (autosuggestion, raw will, the conscious exercises, etc). That's why there's no method for dealing with it in step one.RockDemon wrote:It doesn't give an exact method to deal with negative attributes
~:Shin:~
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Re: Some Hermeticism questions - LBRP, Bardon vs GD
Shin,Shinichi wrote:Missed this before. In short: read step two. [yay] The IIH is a complete system, for the most part. It just takes more meditation than more descriptive works. In step one you make the soul mirrors, in step two you start balancing them out (autosuggestion, raw will, the conscious exercises, etc). That's why there's no method for dealing with it in step one.RockDemon wrote:It doesn't give an exact method to deal with negative attributes
~:Shin:~
You threw out some incredibly helpful thoughts and observations here both on Hermeticism and IIH.
I'm back to the One Year Manual, read it in an afternoon maybe two weeks ago and I'm planning to get through that (last time I got worried that what was in step 2 would be cumulative and that it could start taking up impossible quantities of time - reading it in it's entirety showed me that wasn't the case). I have to agree with Regardie as well when he said that it was a good primer for A.'.A.'. as it seems like a skim of that system's general bases. When that's done there's a good chance I may take another run at IIH.
You don't have to do a thing perfect, just relentlessly.
Re: Some Hermeticism questions - LBRP, Bardon vs GD
Noob question: What does LBRP stand for?RockDemon wrote:Recently I was reading some works from Golden Dawn. And I noticed that the LBRP is one of their fundamental practices. Moreover in the Golden Dawn Ritual Tarot it is the first exercise even before the relaxation and meditation exercises, and is said that the practitioner should master it and only then proceed on. So I wonder why many books go on to the meditation without any banishing techniques (for example Bardon)..is it really necessary? And as I get GD is supposed to be a Hermetic order, on the other hand Bardon teachings are supposed to be Hermetic as well, but those differ in someways. So what is Hermeticism exactly?
Re: Some Hermeticism questions - LBRP, Bardon vs GD
It is abbrevation of Lesser Banishing Ritual of Pentagram.DarkHeart wrote:Noob question: What does LBRP stand for?