Illegally Downloading Music is WRONG!

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Original post: corbin_israfael

[QUOTE=Rin Daemoko;347932]I was not referring to legal definitions of theft, but rather dictionary definitions. It is still theft, even if international law is hesitant about that fact. I'm going by the letter of the word rather than the letter of the law.[/QUOTE]It is Intellectual Theft. I have no reservations about calling it by another name and getting bogged down in semantics trying to justify it. I am a Criminal. I know I am a Criminal. However whose Crime is worse...those that commit this crime or those who call it a crime yet do much worse...I am merely making use of the tools put at my disposal...a product of the Information Age...

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Original post: dr. ski wampas

[QUOTE=Kazahel;347854]Your so funny. So tell us all then... why would you ask for a picture of this friend? Even if you are kidding like you say... Why say it? Can you explain to us what made you think of that.[/QUOTE]

yes! Extinctionspasm that made my day. Paranoia indeed, only I don't think it's the whole board that is affected.

I think simex hit the nail right on the head with this. Call it theft if you want but the fact of the matter is that bands make more money touring or playing or doing other stuff than they do selling CDs, and the idea that they are the ones making money off of album sales is a huge misconception. All the big bands who bitch about it are provided with enough services from the label and sponsers that they will tell you it's wrong and to support the label because that is who employs them and they don't want to do without all that nice stuff.

I am more than down to support bands that are getting started or dont have all that promotion or backing behind them. I don't mind paying for that music and I love going to go to those type of shows if I like the music.

The old idea of buying all your music from the mall and reccord store is dying and they don't want to let it go. As a musician I think we should embrace it. This is the age of information, right?

Being signed to a label used to mean steady work for a musician but soon that won't be the biggest thing for a band, and artist won't have to worry about selling their souls and can get back to foccusing on the art, like they should be. I see in the future people doing unlimited or free online distribution to build a fanbase, and putting on better shows and focusing on making it more of an experience for the fan so that the respect and support goes both ways in a way which the industry really lacks right now. I think a band should offer limited runs of products like vinyl box sets or DVDs to make it special or collectable for people, while maintaining free access to the music itself. I think it is more important for an artist just to have their names or art out there for people to enjoy and interpret and spread the word of that art and keep it alive. Music like that would never have to die so long as it was real art. No more pop music though... Damn.

It's just as "wrong", that music and the individual artist are so exploited and marketed by the media, which itself is "wrong" all over. This is like alot of the similiar arguments how whether it or right or wrong is just a matter of opinion that is so characteristic of OF and to say that people should be jailed on the spot is just harsh. Who here has been to jail? Aren't their enough non-violent drug offenders (being myself "guilty") over crowding our system that the courts should find a way to bennetit off this too?

Also, I love tool but MJK really posses me off sometimes.

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Original post: corbin_israfael

It's odd that you mention the thing about collectible items as I for one am a sucker for them. Here recently I bought a special cd of Bob Marley's just to get the Painted Tin that opened from both sides and said Bob Marely Forever in embossed Jamaican Colors and a big Bob Marely profile with his hair flailing.

I mean...I can get his music anytime I want and frankly had every song in the collection...I just bought it for the tin because I am a huge Bob Marley fan.

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Original post: Marquise De Sade

[QUOTE=corbin_israfael;347935]It is Intellectual Theft. I have no reservations about calling it by another name and getting bogged down in semantics trying to justify it. I am a Criminal. I know I am a Criminal. However whose Crime is worse...those that commit this crime or those who call it a crime yet do much worse...I am merely making use of the tools put at my disposal...a product of the Information Age...[/QUOTE]

Washington is lifting it's gun ban. So by your logical I'll just use the tools at my disposal, and shot you for stealing something from me because I'm just using the tools at my disposal. Corbin I'm familiar with your hacker culture very well since my uncle, and a friend of mine are hackers. I been to jail before once, and it wasn't what I would call fun, and it wasn't for something like hacking. All I can say is that your free to say what you want, and I respect that. But nontheless I hope you get sent back to jail asap for hacking, and I hope that maybe your talks about spirituality start to sink in, and you see all the wrong that you do. And stop posting all your hacker creed nonsense it just sounds stupid.

Anyway to others. Like I said in my first post I'am fully aware musicians aren't making money through physical albums(I'm going for a music business major), and thats why I support online distribution of music. What I'm opposed of is these programs that will let you download albums for free. Online sell of album is one of the best ways for an artist to make money from their music.

The reason tours, and merch is making the most money is because labels couldn't foresee the changes that were coming about in the industry. In the contracts most of the percentage from the album sells were coming from physical sells but not from any other medium. In most these contracts you have some ridiculous clauses like breakage clause, free goods, etc which the artist pays through the album sales.

Since this has nothing todo with the online distribution the artist keeps a big percentage. There is nothing wrong with getting 1 or 2 songs for free. But it is a problem when whole albums are. Many of you might be all about "screw the mainstream" which is ok. But some of us are serious about what we do, and want to make a career out of it.

If someone downloaded one or two songs from my album for free I wouldn't mind cause its promotion. You also have mediums like myspace which makes it even better. But losing that possible $10 from an album because someone decided not to buy it despite the fact that most musicians starting up aren't treated the best is just wrong.

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Original post: corbin_israfael

[QUOTE=Marquise De Sade;347954]Washington is lifting it's gun ban. So by your logical I'll just use the tools at my disposal, and shot you for stealing something from me because I'm just using the tools at my disposal.[/QUOTE]You think that by equating using technology to exchange information and physical theft on the same level that it proves anything? It's absurd to equate the two.

By my Logic you would be justified in shooting me if I were to invade your private residence as is your right by law. You can shoot anyone that may pose a physical threat if forcefully entering your home. Technology is without physical boundaries and thus the same reasoning cannot be used to determine the severity of both. So it is illogical to equate physical theft with non-physical theft since they are measured on different scales...

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Original post: Kazahel

yes! Extinctionspasm that made my day. Paranoia indeed, only I don't think it's the whole board that is affected.

Oh yes of course... must be paranoid. As I was when I replied to that other thread not long ago which was actually started about me(for me) remember!? Or am I paranoid about that too? So now why would someone start a thread about me and the amount I get harassed online, and the measures that people go to inorder to do it ect...

Why would a stranger start a thread like that for me? Considering I've never talked to him before. Hmm maybe I have reason to be paranoid.... So imo the only kind of people who say that are either people who are playing along with the tossers... or people who just have no idea at all... take your pick.

And the only reason you replied to me here now is because of that thread. I guess you've been stewing huh.. lol... At least this time you quoted me correctly and didnt try to place words in my mouth hey. It's an old technique mate.

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Original post: S33k3R

Nobody yet has yet to come up with a convincing argument as to why downloading music of a site like Youtube is wrong. Its "meant" to be viewed on the site...so why not copy it.

I would say in general, if you have to crack a DRM program to access the music...theft. No DRM = no theft.

It always amuses me that people get worked up over this seemingly modern trend of "downloading music". How many people remember casset tapes?...we all used them...we all had copy's, (remember those little plastic bits you had to break so nobody could record on your tape ) We've been doing this since the 80's....the music industry is still here, still churning out pop artists.

This is a non issue.

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Original post: DestroyedBySet

lol

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Original post: Querent

LOL. Nice.

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Original post: Marquise De Sade

[QUOTE=corbin_israfael;347957]You think that by equating using technology to exchange information and physical theft on the same level that it proves anything? It's absurd to equate the two.

By my Logic you would be justified in shooting me if I were to invade your private residence as is your right by law. You can shoot anyone that may pose a physical threat if forcefully entering your home. Technology is without physical boundaries and thus the same reasoning cannot be used to determine the severity of both. So it is illogical to equate physical theft with non-physical theft since they are measured on different scales...[/QUOTE]

Next time I need a smartass to correct my grammar I'll PM you to hack the forums, and edit all my posts.

Oh, and I'am using the technological advancements of a weapon to shoot you because your right technology has no boundaries. But all nonsense aside understand that no matter what it's still theft, and as such you must be persecuted whether it be physical, intellectual, or "technological" theft. I could easily just say if I left my drink on a table at a food court because I wanted to go get some napkins would it give you the right to take my drink because we're in a public place?

I just want to point out that no matter what medium you have to take something illegally it will always be theft. I honestly never thought that I would have to explain it to you, an aspiring spiritualist who dislikes the modern comforts of the West, and yet decides that its cool to be a hacker too. Hacker/ yogi? Sounds like an oxymoron.

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Original post: shadow flame

isn't whole point of theft that property is transfered? :eh

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Original post: Kath_

*lifts eyepatch to talk seriousness in stereoscopic 3D*

The existing system, or rather the crumbling system, is one which exploits musicians, and gives godlike power to record label corporations. The intellectual and artistic property of musicians is being stolen! and the record labels are the ones stealing it.

Musicians are forced into 'horrible' contractual situations in order to gain the support of a recording label. This was necessary though... because you couldn't become 'a hit' without their media influence. Basically you agree to give them almost everything, or you linger in an artificially created obscurity. Without record label support, you couldn't get 'airtime' on the radio. The radio station corporations and record label corporations essentially work together to control what you hear, and in turn actually 'manufacture' popularity for a particular song or band, while steamrolling over competing content.

However, the radio-corporation/record-label stranglehold is nearing its end. Now you can access 'any' song, by 'any' artist. These songs can become popular by word of mouth alone, and shared amongst listeners. This is 'ideal' for musicians, and 'bad' for the entertainment industry monopoly.

There are currently bands who are turning down record labels. Its unprecedented.

Sure the radio is becoming increasingly dominated by a smallish number of giant corporations who control what gets played and openly exchange $$ with recording labels for manufactured popularity... but the more greedy it gets, the less people are listening. Thus the popularity of iPod and internet radio.

Musicians and fans are cutting the middlemen. The music entertainment industry complex, which until now used to have both parties by the balls.

And right or wrong, it wouldn't really have been possible without piracy paving the way. Should musicians get paid for their music? absolutely. Should the entertainment cartel take your money, and the musicians' money, in exchange for providing a 'force feed' delivery system, creating artificial popularity, at the expense of artistic expression & nuance? eh... count me out.

controlled capitalism, is regulated profiteering.
uncontrolled capitalism, is enslavement.
capitalism controlled by rules devised by corporations, is tyrannical.

not that I'm advocating feudal society, or socialism, or communism either. In any system... in *every* system... the masses must see diligently, overwhelmingly, even illegally, to their own well being, or learn to be happy with the feet of powerful men on their throats.

If theft is morally 'absolutely wrong' regardless of the extenuating circumstances, then we really out to hand America over to the queen of england, and put some flowers on King George III's grave with an apology note.

*returns eyepatch*

Incidently, I do the 'monthly fee' music DL for my non-namebrand mp3player. Its worth it for the quality rips and accurate id3 tags.

Kath
ideological anarchist

PS- love the cartoon DestroyedBySet :p

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Original post: corbin_israfael

[QUOTE=Marquise De Sade;348041]Next time I need a smartass to correct my grammar I'll PM you to hack the forums, and edit all my posts.

Oh, and I'am using the technological advancements of a weapon to shoot you because your right technology has no boundaries. But all nonsense aside understand that no matter what it's still theft, and as such you must be persecuted whether it be physical, intellectual, or "technological" theft. I could easily just say if I left my drink on a table at a food court because I wanted to go get some napkins would it give you the right to take my drink because we're in a public place?

I just want to point out that no matter what medium you have to take something illegally it will always be theft. I honestly never thought that I would have to explain it to you, an aspiring spiritualist who dislikes the modern comforts of the West, and yet decides that its cool to be a hacker too. Hacker/ yogi? Sounds like an oxymoron.[/QUOTE]I am an odd one I will give you that but I adapt to my environment. Since this has degraded to the point of personal attacks I am deeming this a non-issue and will no longer continue this useless argument. I view Technology as an expansion of Consciousness since I am influenced by Anime especially Ghost in the Shell which questions the very essentials of what it means to be human in a technological dystopia.

However the next time you wish to enter into a discussion please use examples that follow logic and reason instead of your own personal views. Letting your personal feelings get in the way only skews your arguments and makes for a less than interesting debate.

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Original post: Jenfucius

...
Musicians are forced into 'horrible' contractual situations in order to gain the support of a recording label. ...

This is true.
I heard of a number cases of how exploitive the music industry is to musicians. They get pennies compare to what the companies make from them.

Two cases from TV interviews comes to the top of my head:
The Monkeys and Allanh Miles.

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Original post: Jenfucius

As for downloading music. I never ever downloaded any thing and probably never will.

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Original post: dr. ski wampas

Thankyou for that post kath!

Podcasts are the future...

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Original post: Fatal-3RR0R

Great post Kath, basically the same way I feel about this.

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Original post: Sapiens Vir

Most musicians make a very small percentage of their earnings off of physical record sales. Most of that money goes to the record company. Merchandising and touring fill the musician's pockets. At least that is the way I've had it explained to me.

I download all manner of questionable things from pirate software to MP3's and I can't say I really feel all that bad about it. I know I'm certainly not going to change my habits because some millionaire band whines about money they are losing nor will I shed a tear for the multi billion dollar software company that says my downloads negatively impact their earnings. If they want me to stop doing it then stop charging an obscene amount of money for what amounts to a word processor, and stop releasing eleven shit songs on a CD with only one good single.

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Original post: Jenfucius

Most musicians make a very small percentage of their earnings off of physical record sales. Most of that money goes to the record company. Merchandising and touring fill the musician's pockets. At least that is the way I've had it explained to me.

Thats what I heard as well.
Thats why surprisingly a number of musicians are into the free downloading of thier music. They say it helps promotes their music and its really the live concerts where they are making their money. (At least its not the record company making the big money off them.)

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Original post: tiger_shark

I don't see what the big deal is.. I download music where I can find it because it's more convenient for me. Big artists make plenty of money, regardless of whether or not I am paying for their music. I do buy most of my music from I tunes, but I tunes doesn't always have everything I want.

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Original post: doh

So what is stopping you from going to the artist's site and asking them how you can give them a buck or two?

All I can say is thank god that I wasted a shit load of money on music. And I will say wasted because a lot of it is shit for one song. It's all legally on my computer.

There are currently bands who are turning down record labels. Its unprecedented.

But you can still flip them a few. These are the types of people that know not everyone can afford a membership or a concert ticket or their CD. And that is soooooo cool. If I find them, even if I don't like the music, I'll flip them a buck for telling the system to take a flying freaking leap.

The point is it used to be musicians were given food or whatever for what they do. Now it's dollars or Euros (if they are smart). They entertain you. Isn't that worth a buck or two once to enjoy as long as you wish?

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Original post: Marquise De Sade

Hello people,

I'm glad to see that this thread got so much attention. It was actually meant to be more of a simple rant about my decision to delete some music in my library which I will be doing when I have the time. I would have responded earlier to this thread but I've just been employed by another company, and the hours are difficult.

Anyway since many here are not musicians or don't share the same views as I do I honestly didn't expect people to understand. I have heard many arguments for, and against this issue, and me working towards a music business degree major obviously have to keep up to date with the goings of the music biz.

Basically the arguments are no we should not download music for free because the artists already make alot of money, get free promotion, and make most of their money through other mediums. All of this is of course true but my views are in a way similar to doh's views. All in all while many of you might know about the issue I just wanted to raise a deeper awareness.

I can't change opinions of course but I do hope in the future that many of you support your favorite artists, and your favorite indie musicians by purchasing their music through itunes, emusic, or however it is available online. This is money that will go straight to the artist, and something I hope many of you are not against.

Thank you all for replying.

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Original post: wezzerd

100% of all of the musicians I know download music. Why? Because how they feel is that (like themselves), if their music is good then it's a labor of love, and they'll see people at their shows. If it's a labor of love and done for money, we get music like we hear on the radio oh so often and it won't be worth listening to anyway, so it's a moot point on whether or not those people care, because no one is downloading their music anyway. However, when you love something, you usually don't care about how much money you can make from it, only that it is enjoyed by others. Of course this isn't always true, and I'm not suggesting that you don't support artists, but I don't see any particular harm in listening to music without paying for it. Nothing beats the experience of being at a live show, and because of that fact popular artists will never be poor.

Now, I'm just going to play Devil's Advocate here for no good reason: The people in the music industry (like record labels) need money too, of course the big wigs at the top make more money than any one person needs, but the lower downs who actually do all the work are average joe's like you and me who work for a living, and by not purchasing CD's, you're taking money out of their pockets.

Personally, I download all the music I like when I like, and I don't give a shit about all the shit that goes with it, chances are that a good deal of these artists wouldn't have gotten my money even if I couldn't download their songs, so they're not losing anything regardless. I often go to live shows and bye merch if I like a band, so I think they're well reimbursed on that front, and if I think they're only okay, I can live without their music, but if it's there, I may listen to it.

What I fail to understand is your animosity in saying that people who download music should go to jail, it's a victimless crime where the punishment far exceeds the crime, I think a fine is much more appropriate, and only if a portion of that fine finds its way into the artists' pockets.

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Original post: simex

[QUOTE=Marquise De Sade;348418]

Anyway since many here are not musicians or don't share the same views as I do I honestly didn't expect people to understand. I have heard many arguments for, and against this issue, and me working towards a music business degree major obviously have to keep up to date with the goings of the music biz.

[/QUOTE]

Maybe you should ask for your money back; it sounds like most of the laymen in this thread know a lot more about the music business than you do. I guess that makes sense though, the school is trying to sell you a degree for something that probably won't exist in 10 years, why would they hip you to that fact?

The internet has essentially removed the need for any sort of middleman in the music "business". Any artist who believes their music is worth buying has the ability to sell it themselves, with about the same setup woes as an ebay powerseller. Information flows freely now, and people don't need manufactured stars anymore. The long tail is becoming the fat tail.

And beyond this fact, there are also a good number of musicians that share their music for free, like myself. But I guess that makes me some sort of freak hippie musician who isn't legit, right? I also work in marketing, so let me tell you something about media...

All traditional media is dying.

There may not be television in 10 years! Youtube is better, and people create the content for free! Oh my! I thought culture was a commodity!?

Every year the major television networks hold an event where they rent out a really fancy theater in NYC. All the big companies that do TV ads show up; Johnson & Johnson, Procter & Gamble, Unilever, etc... and they watch the pilots for the new shows to decide which ones they want to run ads on. This has been happening for decades.

Now, all of a sudden, none of these guys are showing up. TV advertising doesn't work, print ads don't work, radio ads don't work. And as a result of this, the good old music industry model no longer works. Of course they blame MP3s, but the MP3s are just an expression of a larger change in our society.

People are not willing to be drip fed their culture anymore, not since they've had a taste of what's really out there. I remember one of my ex girlfriends really truly believed that her local radio station scoured through all the artists in existence and picked the very best ones for her. Now that people can scour themselves, they realize that the biz wasn't really doing a great job. There's no turning back now. Pandora's box is open.

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Original post: Kath_

[QUOTE=doh;348382]So what is stopping you from going to the artist's site and asking them how you can give them a buck or two?

All I can say is thank god that I wasted a shit load of money on music. And I will say wasted because a lot of it is shit for one song. It's all legally on my computer. But you can still flip them a few. These are the types of people that know not everyone can afford a membership or a concert ticket or their CD. And that is soooooo cool. If I find them, even if I don't like the music, I'll flip them a buck for telling the system to take a flying freaking leap.

The point is it used to be musicians were given food or whatever for what they do. Now it's dollars or Euros (if they are smart). They entertain you. Isn't that worth a buck or two once to enjoy as long as you wish?[/QUOTE]

I don't disagree with that. actually i download lots and lots of music (legally, but really only as a matter of convenience, not conviction, some of my mp3's are from napster days), and when a band who's music I like, comes to town, I like to go to the concert if I can. If the band is less well known, and lacks corporate promotion, I'm doubly anxious to go see them live. I don't imagine that the $15/month actually puts much of anything into musicians' pockets, at least not compared to the sheer volume I download. But if they're not too snooty to stop by St Louis on tour, and I like their music, I'll give them a wad of cash, and get to enjoy an evening for it, I'll even support the venue with a couple insanely overpriced beers And concerts are such an energy rush really. great fun.

pirated software is a trickier matter. there's no musician to support. the programmer probably got laid off so that the company could raid his pension fund. and not knowing his name, he's hard to support. But $50 for a word processor which will work with my newer built-in-obsolescence-machine? lulz, yeah right. That's what the rules we put into our free market system were originally designed to prevent. competition-free fleecing of the consumer and non-innovation. MS can bite me. Not because they're rich, but because of the damage they've done to capitalism regulation in america.

some software companies aren't so bad. For example, I really like the work the dev's do on city of heroes, I bought all the optional content packs, which most players consider a waste of money. I got them in part *because* they were created to NOT be necessary for gameplay. Shows a real lack of corporate greed, I support that. I play UT, which is free, but if they charged money, i'd pay, in spite of all the n00bs using hax there, its a fun game. Mirc on the other hand went from freeware to shareware... and frankly its not a very good program. So i never donated to it, and i learned to use a different freeware IRC client when mirc went 'pay'.

You know, if you buy a chair, take it home, sit in it, and it breaks, you take it back. if you buy a software cd... you're screwed... the legal situation in software is pretty thoroughly F'd up.

I guess you could say, that I have no ethical qualms about pirating content from extortionists. But if someone makes something nice, pretty, nice sounding, fun to use, etc. and if there is a way to recompense the creators, i'm up for it. There are a few exceptions. photoshop for example, I don't have $800 eating a hole in my pocket. Its a great program, but if I couldn't pirate it, i just wouldn't have it. the creating entity loses nada from me, and i'm not making money on their work. *shrug*

Kath