Original post: pmcv
Say, Chaos Shaman, excellent find. I think this piece you link for us presents exactly the point I am trying to make about some of the confusion I think people have about Gnostic texts.
Where we have the Naasene psalm (here is the translation I prefer)...
Behold, Father, she wanders the earth pursued by evil. Far from thy Breath she is going astray. She is trying to flee bitter Chaos, and does not know how she is to escape. Send me forth, o Father, therefore, and I, bearing the seal shall descend and wander all Aeons through, all mysteries reveal. I shall manifest the forms of the gods and teach them the secrets of the holy way which I call Gnosis
It has sometimes led people to think that what is being talked about is some kind of astral journey, or mystical experience. But, as this article points out, this is not the case since the Gnosis being talked about is a comprehension of the meaning imparted by the system itself. That is to say, it is a context.
So, the travel through the Aeons is not so much a psychic journey like the sort seen in a Casteneda model as it is an allegorical representation of a series of epiphanies.
There are some bits of this piece that are misinformed, even outright false, from the technical perspective, but it seems to recognize the point I am making here concerning context and the fact that the presentation of this kind of lingo in Gnosticism has a function that is often misunderstood. The Gnostic "realms" are not mystical places found through ecstatic experience, they are levels of comprehension and areas of development and refining.
PMCV
Erotognosis
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Original post: Chaos Shaman
...sigh...I'm going back to square one then...need an apprentice?
...sigh...I'm going back to square one then...need an apprentice?
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Original post: pathless
Man thats a hard path study study and study.No wonder modern Gnostics start looking at other traditions to study and start Comparing/Contrasting with the traditional.
That sounds like Jnana Yoga -jnana deals with the field of speculative processes, Joseph Campbell in my VERY limited view obtained a level of Gnosis thru comprehension?The Gnostic "realms" are not mystical places found through ecstatic experience, they are levels of comprehension and areas of development and refining.
Man thats a hard path study study and study.No wonder modern Gnostics start looking at other traditions to study and start Comparing/Contrasting with the traditional.
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Original post: pmcv
Chaos Shaman...
LOL... Wait, friend, don't give up just yet. Part of what I am trying to outline is simply a destinction in context and usage.
I mean.... why would we need to fit Gnosticism within Shamanism's context, or Chaos Magics? OR, why would we have to fit them withing Gnosticism to make them valid? I would say that the answer is.... we don't.
My point is, just because the definition of "Gnosis" may be different from what many people think does not mean that if thier understanding of the word changes that it could not still have meaning for them. If one wishes to use the term "erotognosis" they may do so with full knowledge that thier usage is not the same as that of traditional Gnostics.
On the other hand, there may be something else in Shamanism, for instance, that could be compared to "Gnosis" but perhaps we have simply used the word to talk about the wrong part?
While many people might wish to use the word "Gnosis" to describe the "Shamanic journey", perhaps the only problems is that the word would have been better applied to the meaning the system gives the Shamanic journey... see what I mean?
OR, maybe there really is nothing in a particular system that actually does translate from the Gnostic meaning of the term "Gnosis", but it does not invalidate that system unless we assume Gnostic context to be fully genuine. This being a group dealing with a number of Occult forms, I don't think we should make such an assumption without some dipolomacy at least
I would like to talk about how eroticism COULD have meaning in the Gnostic context... but perhaps from a different perspective.... if you are still interested in the conversation. I don't meant to frustrate you, honestly.
PMCV
Chaos Shaman...
...sigh...I'm going back to square one then...need an apprentice?
LOL... Wait, friend, don't give up just yet. Part of what I am trying to outline is simply a destinction in context and usage.
I mean.... why would we need to fit Gnosticism within Shamanism's context, or Chaos Magics? OR, why would we have to fit them withing Gnosticism to make them valid? I would say that the answer is.... we don't.
My point is, just because the definition of "Gnosis" may be different from what many people think does not mean that if thier understanding of the word changes that it could not still have meaning for them. If one wishes to use the term "erotognosis" they may do so with full knowledge that thier usage is not the same as that of traditional Gnostics.
On the other hand, there may be something else in Shamanism, for instance, that could be compared to "Gnosis" but perhaps we have simply used the word to talk about the wrong part?
While many people might wish to use the word "Gnosis" to describe the "Shamanic journey", perhaps the only problems is that the word would have been better applied to the meaning the system gives the Shamanic journey... see what I mean?
OR, maybe there really is nothing in a particular system that actually does translate from the Gnostic meaning of the term "Gnosis", but it does not invalidate that system unless we assume Gnostic context to be fully genuine. This being a group dealing with a number of Occult forms, I don't think we should make such an assumption without some dipolomacy at least
I would like to talk about how eroticism COULD have meaning in the Gnostic context... but perhaps from a different perspective.... if you are still interested in the conversation. I don't meant to frustrate you, honestly.
PMCV
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Original post: pmcv
Hey Pathless
Hmm, interesting observation. I would personally be a bit skeptical about the comparison primarily because of my skepticism of Campbell's methodologies.... but I do think I know what you mean. There is some kind of realization that comes from backing up and comparing ideas (though I would be quick to point out that there is a difference between ecclecticism and syncratism, and this is highly important to the Gnostic perspective, I believe). I would not jump to call that "Gnosis", but certainly an intellectual activity that could fit in the "Psychic" portion of the path TO Gnosis.
In fact, I think the "study study study" remark is one that many Gnostics of old could have related to. I find it interesting that some people today attempt to remove "Gnosis" from all intellectual activity, and I think this is a complete misunderstanding of the system.
Some people say, as we all know, that something worth having must be worked for.
PMCV
Hey Pathless
Hmm, interesting observation. I would personally be a bit skeptical about the comparison primarily because of my skepticism of Campbell's methodologies.... but I do think I know what you mean. There is some kind of realization that comes from backing up and comparing ideas (though I would be quick to point out that there is a difference between ecclecticism and syncratism, and this is highly important to the Gnostic perspective, I believe). I would not jump to call that "Gnosis", but certainly an intellectual activity that could fit in the "Psychic" portion of the path TO Gnosis.
In fact, I think the "study study study" remark is one that many Gnostics of old could have related to. I find it interesting that some people today attempt to remove "Gnosis" from all intellectual activity, and I think this is a complete misunderstanding of the system.
Some people say, as we all know, that something worth having must be worked for.
PMCV