Original post: DennisE
Hi! I do a lot of things...some very well, and others rather poorly. For what it's worth one thing I do is practice shamanism. What is shamanism to me? In my foolishness it seems to me that what distinuishes shamanism from this or that other practice is when the practicioner enters and altered state of consciousness (ASC) (however light or deep) and in that state travels in non-ordinary reality (NOR) in order to meet and work with/through spirit helpers (whatever you may believe they are, are aren't) to produce changes in NOR that result in intended, desired changes occuring in ordinary reality (OR).
Thus when I successfully heal as the result of working with/through my helping spirits in NOR I am practicing shamanism. Likewise when I work with my helping spirits to protect the community by ending the spree of a serial killer or rapist I am practicing shamanism. Were I to successfully bring about these changes without entering an ASC and/or the assistance of helping spirits I might well be practicing sorcery or witchcraft or this or that form of energy work but in my world at least I would not be acting as a shaman/shamanist. Does this make sense to anyone? Thanks, Dennis
When am I practicing shamanism?
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When am I practicing shamanism?
Original post: doh
Me thinks you put too much emphasis on the labels. Though Shamans and those that practice shamanism are a bit different (there is another topic here covering that) they both use magic, just as sorcerers, wizards, witches, CM's, Chaotes and everyone else.
If the method is one that is intrinsically linked to your path (i.e. using nature, spirit guides and other "natural" aspects), then you could call is shamanism. If you are dressing in robes, lighting candles, burning incense and reciting Thelemic ritual, it would be more CM. But even Shamans will do things "outside the box" within their path. Just because it isn't ALWAYS done that way makes them no less of a Shaman unless they are only posers to begin with.
However, both are magic. Both are paths that, in my personal opinion, lead to the same conclusion eventually, just take much different routes in getting there.
Me thinks you put too much emphasis on the labels. Though Shamans and those that practice shamanism are a bit different (there is another topic here covering that) they both use magic, just as sorcerers, wizards, witches, CM's, Chaotes and everyone else.
If the method is one that is intrinsically linked to your path (i.e. using nature, spirit guides and other "natural" aspects), then you could call is shamanism. If you are dressing in robes, lighting candles, burning incense and reciting Thelemic ritual, it would be more CM. But even Shamans will do things "outside the box" within their path. Just because it isn't ALWAYS done that way makes them no less of a Shaman unless they are only posers to begin with.
However, both are magic. Both are paths that, in my personal opinion, lead to the same conclusion eventually, just take much different routes in getting there.
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When am I practicing shamanism?
Original post: DennisE
My 2 cents:
Yes, labels are just labels, and yet...... If we don't preserve and pass on the core of shamanic practices and techniqes then in the end we have a handful of shallow New Age bookstore mishmash, hodgepodge and poop. I have no problem with borrowing tools from other traditions for my toolkit howver I see many contemporaries who never focused on the core skills and practices of any traditional path and their effectiveness is limited and their depth of knowledge is surficial. Dennis
My 2 cents:
Yes, labels are just labels, and yet...... If we don't preserve and pass on the core of shamanic practices and techniqes then in the end we have a handful of shallow New Age bookstore mishmash, hodgepodge and poop. I have no problem with borrowing tools from other traditions for my toolkit howver I see many contemporaries who never focused on the core skills and practices of any traditional path and their effectiveness is limited and their depth of knowledge is surficial. Dennis
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When am I practicing shamanism?
Original post: doh
Re-read one aspect of my post:
But, with that being said, you will find a million and one dime store Shamans all over the place. Like I said, you need to wade through a lot of coal. And, more often than not, that means that you aren't getting your magic from books but from an actual Shaman. And they can be difficult to find. Utah has a lot of tribes, nearby, though, so it may not be so hard for you.
Re-read one aspect of my post:
Shamanism is just like every path that is here. You have to wade through a lot of coal to find the diamond. Posers are posers. Eclectics are eclectics. A true Shaman is true to his path always and always uses the tools available to him. If you are thinking outside of the box, you are not necessarily not behaving in a shamanistic manner. You are not behaving in a shamanistic manner if you are ignoring the cores values. It's as simple as that.Just because it isn't ALWAYS done that way makes them no less of a Shaman unless they are only posers to begin with.
But, with that being said, you will find a million and one dime store Shamans all over the place. Like I said, you need to wade through a lot of coal. And, more often than not, that means that you aren't getting your magic from books but from an actual Shaman. And they can be difficult to find. Utah has a lot of tribes, nearby, though, so it may not be so hard for you.
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When am I practicing shamanism?
Original post: crowfuzz
hello the hall!
first let me say right out that i'm puzzled to see mentioned often on these threads as i read them an outlook which seems to put forth that shamanism is a Native American"thing". some people on this forum seem to be expressing as a given that for a person to understand and practice shamanism that said person must contact an NA tribe and follow NA ways. i disagree with this. IMO unless a person's own spirits lead them to NA ways then those ways are not for that person.
there are other forms or focuses of shamanism. a great many other forms and focuses actually. as many as their are cultures in this world to draw from and spirits thereof. not to mention the eclectic vogue of gathering from many places and sycretizing it to a personal path. it seems to me in my simple understanding of the multiverse, of the spirits in it, and of we who contact and associate with those spirits, that our own spirits will lead, aid, or flat-out guide us to the road which is best for us. which is often a way other than the NA path of the red road. which isn't said as an argument or a disparagement, just as my own understanding of this practice.
as to Dennis' quandry for this thread. i feel that there is more to shamanism then journey. while i think journey is essential to shamanism, and that without the ability to journey that one really isn't practicing shamanism, i think it holds more to it than just journey. seership, for example, seems to me an art of shamanism. ceremony i think can be part of shamanistic work. crafting healing objects is part of this whole too. so is song and dance, if either are done in a way that connects to spirit and accomplishes change of some sort.
i would say that it's not journey so much that constitutes practicing shamanism, but that it's the ability to affect change with the aid of one's spirits.
Jackie
hello the hall!
first let me say right out that i'm puzzled to see mentioned often on these threads as i read them an outlook which seems to put forth that shamanism is a Native American"thing". some people on this forum seem to be expressing as a given that for a person to understand and practice shamanism that said person must contact an NA tribe and follow NA ways. i disagree with this. IMO unless a person's own spirits lead them to NA ways then those ways are not for that person.
there are other forms or focuses of shamanism. a great many other forms and focuses actually. as many as their are cultures in this world to draw from and spirits thereof. not to mention the eclectic vogue of gathering from many places and sycretizing it to a personal path. it seems to me in my simple understanding of the multiverse, of the spirits in it, and of we who contact and associate with those spirits, that our own spirits will lead, aid, or flat-out guide us to the road which is best for us. which is often a way other than the NA path of the red road. which isn't said as an argument or a disparagement, just as my own understanding of this practice.
as to Dennis' quandry for this thread. i feel that there is more to shamanism then journey. while i think journey is essential to shamanism, and that without the ability to journey that one really isn't practicing shamanism, i think it holds more to it than just journey. seership, for example, seems to me an art of shamanism. ceremony i think can be part of shamanistic work. crafting healing objects is part of this whole too. so is song and dance, if either are done in a way that connects to spirit and accomplishes change of some sort.
i would say that it's not journey so much that constitutes practicing shamanism, but that it's the ability to affect change with the aid of one's spirits.
Jackie
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When am I practicing shamanism?
Original post: doh
I agree on the Native American aspect. Shamanism isn't a NA thing only. In the US, they seem to make up the bulk, but they aren't the only ones. But, for Dennis, the NA are probably his closest, if not only, personal resource on shamanism. I've got a feeling it would be difficult for him to travel to South America or Africa or Europe or anywhere else (even within the US) to find an actual practicing Shaman that has been doing it forever.
I disagree about the effecting one's spirit, though. I believe that the journey is very important to that and I feel that that statement wasn't "all encompassing" enough, if you know what I mean. It's hard to describe, but there are many aspects to Shamanism that go well beyond one's own spirit.
I agree on the Native American aspect. Shamanism isn't a NA thing only. In the US, they seem to make up the bulk, but they aren't the only ones. But, for Dennis, the NA are probably his closest, if not only, personal resource on shamanism. I've got a feeling it would be difficult for him to travel to South America or Africa or Europe or anywhere else (even within the US) to find an actual practicing Shaman that has been doing it forever.
I disagree about the effecting one's spirit, though. I believe that the journey is very important to that and I feel that that statement wasn't "all encompassing" enough, if you know what I mean. It's hard to describe, but there are many aspects to Shamanism that go well beyond one's own spirit.
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When am I practicing shamanism?
Original post: crowfuzz
howdy Doh,
it's not just the US that has many people holding the image of shamanism as a Native American thing. i've encountered people from other lands who think that the American Indians have all the keys and all the tools.
i think you might be surprised to learn what and who Dennis has had access to in his life.
[QUOTE=doh;259517]
I disagree about the effecting one's spirit, though. I believe that the journey is very important to that and I feel that that statement wasn't "all encompassing" enough, if you know what I mean. It's hard to describe, but there are many aspects to Shamanism that go well beyond one's own spirit.[/QUOTE]
i think that's a misunderstanding of what i said. i feel that shamanism is a means to affect change through the help of spirits. which is different than sorcery (for example) where change is accomplished through one's will.
i completely agree that there are many aspects of shamanism that go beyond one's own spirit. but all shamanism includes interaction with spirits. and while personal growth and insight into oneself simply must be part of the practice, it's not the all of it.
i often refer to the beings that i "work" with as "my spirits", but one could also say "my friends", "my allies", or even (depending on one's view); "the voices in my head". *S* so when i said; "i would say that it's not journey so much that constitutes practicing shamanism, but that it's the ability to affect change with the aid of one's spirits." i was referring to any kind of change, not just the changing of one's own self. while shamanism is often a "take it on faith" sort of thing, nothing puts forth it's relevance like having seen actual change take place from the practice.
frith,
Jackie
howdy Doh,
it's not just the US that has many people holding the image of shamanism as a Native American thing. i've encountered people from other lands who think that the American Indians have all the keys and all the tools.
i think you might be surprised to learn what and who Dennis has had access to in his life.
[QUOTE=doh;259517]
I disagree about the effecting one's spirit, though. I believe that the journey is very important to that and I feel that that statement wasn't "all encompassing" enough, if you know what I mean. It's hard to describe, but there are many aspects to Shamanism that go well beyond one's own spirit.[/QUOTE]
i think that's a misunderstanding of what i said. i feel that shamanism is a means to affect change through the help of spirits. which is different than sorcery (for example) where change is accomplished through one's will.
i completely agree that there are many aspects of shamanism that go beyond one's own spirit. but all shamanism includes interaction with spirits. and while personal growth and insight into oneself simply must be part of the practice, it's not the all of it.
i often refer to the beings that i "work" with as "my spirits", but one could also say "my friends", "my allies", or even (depending on one's view); "the voices in my head". *S* so when i said; "i would say that it's not journey so much that constitutes practicing shamanism, but that it's the ability to affect change with the aid of one's spirits." i was referring to any kind of change, not just the changing of one's own self. while shamanism is often a "take it on faith" sort of thing, nothing puts forth it's relevance like having seen actual change take place from the practice.
frith,
Jackie
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When am I practicing shamanism?
Original post: doh
Thanks for clearing that up. It makes much more sense to me now.
As far as what Dennis has available to him, I lived in Utah for 20+ years. There really isn't much in the ways of shamanism available on a face-to-face basis other than the tribes in the nearby areas, and even they are riff with dime store shamans. There are a few what I'll call covens that work with nature and the spirits that it entails, but they are much more druidic or pagan than what I classify as a shaman. It's probably just a difference of perspective and of intrepretting the words used.
Thanks for clearing that up. It makes much more sense to me now.
As far as what Dennis has available to him, I lived in Utah for 20+ years. There really isn't much in the ways of shamanism available on a face-to-face basis other than the tribes in the nearby areas, and even they are riff with dime store shamans. There are a few what I'll call covens that work with nature and the spirits that it entails, but they are much more druidic or pagan than what I classify as a shaman. It's probably just a difference of perspective and of intrepretting the words used.
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When am I practicing shamanism?
Original post: crowfuzz
howdy Doh,
[QUOTE=doh;259560]As far as what Dennis has available to him, I lived in Utah for 20+ years. There really isn't much in the ways of shamanism available on a face-to-face basis other than the tribes in the nearby areas, and even they are riff with dime store shamans. There are a few what I'll call covens that work with nature and the spirits that it entails, but they are much more druidic or pagan than what I classify as a shaman. It's probably just a difference of perspective and of intrepretting the words used.[/QUOTE]
what i said that you seem to be replying to here wasn't about shamanic resources specifically in the state of UT. or in Northern Utah. let me repeat for clarity;
"i think you might be surprised to learn what and who Dennis has had access to in his life."
(emphasis added)
i'll leave it to Dennis to share of his rich and interesting life's path if he chooses. obviously i've known him for a bit and so have a different perception of him then you seem to have. i do think it's funny to see him being addressed as though he's a newb. :p
i have heard recently that there's a large drumming circle regularly happening in Liberty Park. SLC is a bit far for me to drive just for drumming at about 220 miles one way, and so i won't be personally exploring it.
as for pagans and shamanism as compared to NA folk and shamanism, i don't see the problem. perhaps as you say it's a matter of perspective. but to me shamanism is a practice of connecting to spirits. i don't see any one way of spirituality as having a lock on the practice. and as i've already said my understanding of Native American spiritual/religious ways is that those ways are not "shamanism". i know that to see shamanism as being NA religion is a common conception, or misconception. one which seems to be very much in vogue here on this board as even the way this board is designated, that being "Indigenous Faiths & Shamanistic Practices", links the two together.
of course there are people who take shamanism to be their personal spiritual path rather than a practice alongside or connected to another spirituality. but again a personal spiritual path is not a Native spirituality, AIUI. AIUI a person following Lakota ways, for example, has many things of that culture and their views, ceremonies, and public interactions to guide them. it's a set way of being and the person seeking Lakota ways, for example, needs to enmesh themselves in those ways. and then perhaps the tribe or someone in it will adopt them and they will then be something like Lakota.
as each of the many tribes is unique in their beliefs as respective to each other there really isn't *one* NA spirituality. (which you are probably well aware of, but i'm on a roll
) there is, of course, some basic concepts which do seem to be accepted by all the tribes. but a faithway or spirituality which draws from a blanket-understanding and pick-and-choose kind of blending of what an *outsider* to those nations deems NA ways to be is really a pan-Indian New Age spirituality. and such a spirituality probably does include shamanism or shamanistic concepts in it's syncretic blending, but it's not an NA spirituality. what a pan-Indian New Age way of looking at things is is what the New Age person desires it to be. which is likely neither here nor there as far as what you've been saying about face to face contact and seeking out local tribes. but it is what many people consider to be NA ways as they feel themselves drawn to spirits and a respectful to Nature way of life.
so as far as i'm concerned, Pagan, Heathen, Buddhist, New Age, ect. those are all just fine as spiritual paths in approaching shamanism. as i've said a few times now, from my perspective shamanism is about connecting to spirits. it's about "working" with spirits. it's about affecting change through interaction and aid with and from spirits. there is no one right cultural way to approach learning shamanic practice. that is unless it's through the Sami folk. but really modern shamanism is it's own thing. a Sami term may be applied to it, but modern shamanism is itself. it is what the people practicing it and the spirits they are connected to are growing it to be.
bliss
,
Jackie
howdy Doh,
[QUOTE=doh;259560]As far as what Dennis has available to him, I lived in Utah for 20+ years. There really isn't much in the ways of shamanism available on a face-to-face basis other than the tribes in the nearby areas, and even they are riff with dime store shamans. There are a few what I'll call covens that work with nature and the spirits that it entails, but they are much more druidic or pagan than what I classify as a shaman. It's probably just a difference of perspective and of intrepretting the words used.[/QUOTE]
what i said that you seem to be replying to here wasn't about shamanic resources specifically in the state of UT. or in Northern Utah. let me repeat for clarity;
"i think you might be surprised to learn what and who Dennis has had access to in his life."
(emphasis added)
i'll leave it to Dennis to share of his rich and interesting life's path if he chooses. obviously i've known him for a bit and so have a different perception of him then you seem to have. i do think it's funny to see him being addressed as though he's a newb. :p
i have heard recently that there's a large drumming circle regularly happening in Liberty Park. SLC is a bit far for me to drive just for drumming at about 220 miles one way, and so i won't be personally exploring it.
as for pagans and shamanism as compared to NA folk and shamanism, i don't see the problem. perhaps as you say it's a matter of perspective. but to me shamanism is a practice of connecting to spirits. i don't see any one way of spirituality as having a lock on the practice. and as i've already said my understanding of Native American spiritual/religious ways is that those ways are not "shamanism". i know that to see shamanism as being NA religion is a common conception, or misconception. one which seems to be very much in vogue here on this board as even the way this board is designated, that being "Indigenous Faiths & Shamanistic Practices", links the two together.
of course there are people who take shamanism to be their personal spiritual path rather than a practice alongside or connected to another spirituality. but again a personal spiritual path is not a Native spirituality, AIUI. AIUI a person following Lakota ways, for example, has many things of that culture and their views, ceremonies, and public interactions to guide them. it's a set way of being and the person seeking Lakota ways, for example, needs to enmesh themselves in those ways. and then perhaps the tribe or someone in it will adopt them and they will then be something like Lakota.
as each of the many tribes is unique in their beliefs as respective to each other there really isn't *one* NA spirituality. (which you are probably well aware of, but i'm on a roll
) there is, of course, some basic concepts which do seem to be accepted by all the tribes. but a faithway or spirituality which draws from a blanket-understanding and pick-and-choose kind of blending of what an *outsider* to those nations deems NA ways to be is really a pan-Indian New Age spirituality. and such a spirituality probably does include shamanism or shamanistic concepts in it's syncretic blending, but it's not an NA spirituality. what a pan-Indian New Age way of looking at things is is what the New Age person desires it to be. which is likely neither here nor there as far as what you've been saying about face to face contact and seeking out local tribes. but it is what many people consider to be NA ways as they feel themselves drawn to spirits and a respectful to Nature way of life.so as far as i'm concerned, Pagan, Heathen, Buddhist, New Age, ect. those are all just fine as spiritual paths in approaching shamanism. as i've said a few times now, from my perspective shamanism is about connecting to spirits. it's about "working" with spirits. it's about affecting change through interaction and aid with and from spirits. there is no one right cultural way to approach learning shamanic practice. that is unless it's through the Sami folk. but really modern shamanism is it's own thing. a Sami term may be applied to it, but modern shamanism is itself. it is what the people practicing it and the spirits they are connected to are growing it to be.
bliss
,Jackie
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When am I practicing shamanism?
Original post: doh
That drumming circle you mention is excellent. Been there quite a few times. But I live in Georgia now, so it's too far for me to drive too. But if you are ever down from ID on weekend trip, I highly suggest checking it out.
And it looks like we have a difference of opinion on what shamanism is and isn't. Nothing major, but it appears that you encompass a lot more in the term than I do. Rather than it being just a connection and interaction with spirits, I see it as a bit narrower in definition. Not only is it the connection and the interaction, but it's much more specific. For instance, anyone can connect and interact with spirits. That in and of itself isn't shamanistic. For it to be so, it has to encompass much more. It a different path. It's the understanding that one has of how spirits fit into our lives and our universes. Many can claim a connection to spirits. But they wouldn't be shamans.
This is REALLY difficult to try to explain. Shamans are more, hmmm, active, for lack of better term, in their connection with the spirit and trying to encompass it in daily life. And using that connection as a tool to help all. Man, this isn't coming out like I wanted it too. LOL It's like trying to understand what Raven is saying if you don't know who Raven is. LOL
Like I said, it's just a difference of opinion, mostly dealing with the terminology, but that happens everywhere and everyone has their own set definition of something, but I'm going to try and think on this and come up with a better definition for what shamanism is to me other than the babble I just typed.
That drumming circle you mention is excellent. Been there quite a few times. But I live in Georgia now, so it's too far for me to drive too.
But if you are ever down from ID on weekend trip, I highly suggest checking it out.And it looks like we have a difference of opinion on what shamanism is and isn't. Nothing major, but it appears that you encompass a lot more in the term than I do. Rather than it being just a connection and interaction with spirits, I see it as a bit narrower in definition. Not only is it the connection and the interaction, but it's much more specific. For instance, anyone can connect and interact with spirits. That in and of itself isn't shamanistic. For it to be so, it has to encompass much more. It a different path. It's the understanding that one has of how spirits fit into our lives and our universes. Many can claim a connection to spirits. But they wouldn't be shamans.
This is REALLY difficult to try to explain. Shamans are more, hmmm, active, for lack of better term, in their connection with the spirit and trying to encompass it in daily life. And using that connection as a tool to help all. Man, this isn't coming out like I wanted it too. LOL It's like trying to understand what Raven is saying if you don't know who Raven is. LOL
Like I said, it's just a difference of opinion, mostly dealing with the terminology, but that happens everywhere and everyone has their own set definition of something, but I'm going to try and think on this and come up with a better definition for what shamanism is to me other than the babble I just typed.
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When am I practicing shamanism?
Original post: crowfuzz
hello again Doh,
if I get the chance I will check out that drumming circle. I lived within a couple of blocks of Liberty Park for a few years when I was in grade school. so itâ??s not entirely foreign territory, but Iâ??ve not been to SLC often as an adult.
[QUOTE=doh;259792]
And it looks like we have a difference of opinion on what shamanism is and isn't. Nothing major, but it appears that you encompass a lot more in the term than I do. Rather than it being just a connection and interaction with spirits, I see it as a bit narrower in definition. Not only is it the connection and the interaction, but it's much more specific. For instance, anyone can connect and interact with spirits. That in and of itself isn't shamanistic. For it to be so, it has to encompass much more. It a different path. It's the understanding that one has of how spirits fit into our lives and our universes. Many can claim a connection to spirits. But they wouldn't be shamans. [/QUOTE]
it seems to me that while we may be having a differing of opinions that we are also having problems in communicating. it seems to me that you are responding to what you expect me to be saying rather than to what Iâ??ve said. of course itâ??s also entirely possible that Iâ??m speaking clumsily or overloading my posts with too many words for clarity to emerge. it also seems to me that there are two topics here. that is; when is one practicing shamanism? and when is one a â??shamanâ?Â
hello again Doh,
if I get the chance I will check out that drumming circle. I lived within a couple of blocks of Liberty Park for a few years when I was in grade school. so itâ??s not entirely foreign territory, but Iâ??ve not been to SLC often as an adult.
[QUOTE=doh;259792]
And it looks like we have a difference of opinion on what shamanism is and isn't. Nothing major, but it appears that you encompass a lot more in the term than I do. Rather than it being just a connection and interaction with spirits, I see it as a bit narrower in definition. Not only is it the connection and the interaction, but it's much more specific. For instance, anyone can connect and interact with spirits. That in and of itself isn't shamanistic. For it to be so, it has to encompass much more. It a different path. It's the understanding that one has of how spirits fit into our lives and our universes. Many can claim a connection to spirits. But they wouldn't be shamans. [/QUOTE]
it seems to me that while we may be having a differing of opinions that we are also having problems in communicating. it seems to me that you are responding to what you expect me to be saying rather than to what Iâ??ve said. of course itâ??s also entirely possible that Iâ??m speaking clumsily or overloading my posts with too many words for clarity to emerge. it also seems to me that there are two topics here. that is; when is one practicing shamanism? and when is one a â??shamanâ?Â
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When am I practicing shamanism?
Original post: Theila
My teachers have taught me that Shamanism is primarily the healing of the spirit. Shamans do this by soul-extraction, soul-retrieval, soul-restoration, herbal healing, hands on healing. They also act as spiritual counselor. teacher, student and observer.
What makes a shaman different from other healers is 'Journeying' between this reality and the spiritual realms. While journeying and healing, Shamans ask their spirit guides for assistance. They say that a Shaman will walk with one foot in this world and one foot in the spirit world.
Shamans are present from cultures all over the world. Every society has had a form of shamanism. My teachers are traditional Shamans. One Apache/Siberian my other is Oceanic/Andean. Note that only one of the methods is Native American.
My teachers have taught me that Shamanism is primarily the healing of the spirit. Shamans do this by soul-extraction, soul-retrieval, soul-restoration, herbal healing, hands on healing. They also act as spiritual counselor. teacher, student and observer.
What makes a shaman different from other healers is 'Journeying' between this reality and the spiritual realms. While journeying and healing, Shamans ask their spirit guides for assistance. They say that a Shaman will walk with one foot in this world and one foot in the spirit world.
Shamans are present from cultures all over the world. Every society has had a form of shamanism. My teachers are traditional Shamans. One Apache/Siberian my other is Oceanic/Andean. Note that only one of the methods is Native American.
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When am I practicing shamanism?
Original post: Melusine
Just wish to get back to the cultural origin & roots of the word .
Shaman/ Shamanka, is a Turkic Tungus word from Siberia & Mongolia translating roughly as: One who knows.
From my understanding, the Shaman is an intermediary between the ordinary world ( middle world) and the worlds of spirits ( Upper & Lower).
In Mongolia/ Siberia, Shamans, as medecine-men & women, are almost always CHOSEN- and sometimes very reluctant!- rather than CHOOSING their vocation . They are spotted or recognised as children by the tribe's shaman because of asign, or some unusual trait or disability, thus linking with the archetype of the wounded healer.
They are always put through years of rigourous training, practises & ordeals, with great risk to their physical & mental health.
They often have to ceremonially" claim" their power from their teacher.
A shaman/ shamanka serves their community as healers, counsellors, ritualists, wise men/women , performing rites of passages, burials, exorcisms, and more.
In return, their community supports them.
The inititation & functions of a" shaman"/ medecine -(wo)man- within a community seems fairly similar in northen asia, the native people of North and South America, Africa . It is not so different from the role of local "cunning folks" in the UK.
Having place the word in its sociological context, shamanism seems to me to be a fair label for any practice working roughly along these lines.
In that sense I would agree with the OP.
( Service to a community being an important aspect for me).
I also sometimes get annoyed at the avalanche of " new age" shamans& wishy-washy pseudo shamanistic " how-to " books.
Yet I also recognise the value of " labels"- for naming, forging an identity for our practices while living in a culture/ society which, unlike shamistic/animistic societies , does not acknowledge or support our belief system, and is based upon a radically different paradigm.
I wonder: Neo-Shamanism for the 21st Century?
Melusine
Just wish to get back to the cultural origin & roots of the word .
Shaman/ Shamanka, is a Turkic Tungus word from Siberia & Mongolia translating roughly as: One who knows.
From my understanding, the Shaman is an intermediary between the ordinary world ( middle world) and the worlds of spirits ( Upper & Lower).
In Mongolia/ Siberia, Shamans, as medecine-men & women, are almost always CHOSEN- and sometimes very reluctant!- rather than CHOOSING their vocation . They are spotted or recognised as children by the tribe's shaman because of asign, or some unusual trait or disability, thus linking with the archetype of the wounded healer.
They are always put through years of rigourous training, practises & ordeals, with great risk to their physical & mental health.
They often have to ceremonially" claim" their power from their teacher.
A shaman/ shamanka serves their community as healers, counsellors, ritualists, wise men/women , performing rites of passages, burials, exorcisms, and more.
In return, their community supports them.
The inititation & functions of a" shaman"/ medecine -(wo)man- within a community seems fairly similar in northen asia, the native people of North and South America, Africa . It is not so different from the role of local "cunning folks" in the UK.
Having place the word in its sociological context, shamanism seems to me to be a fair label for any practice working roughly along these lines.
In that sense I would agree with the OP.
( Service to a community being an important aspect for me).
I also sometimes get annoyed at the avalanche of " new age" shamans& wishy-washy pseudo shamanistic " how-to " books.
Yet I also recognise the value of " labels"- for naming, forging an identity for our practices while living in a culture/ society which, unlike shamistic/animistic societies , does not acknowledge or support our belief system, and is based upon a radically different paradigm.
I wonder: Neo-Shamanism for the 21st Century?
Melusine
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When am I practicing shamanism?
Original post: Theila
Even today, in most of the traditional Shamanic teachings, in order to be 'initiated' you must have been through a near-death experience, or have died and been brought back to life. Either that or it is hereditary.
In Neo-Shamanism, they just have to receive a 'calling'.
Even today, in most of the traditional Shamanic teachings, in order to be 'initiated' you must have been through a near-death experience, or have died and been brought back to life. Either that or it is hereditary.
In Neo-Shamanism, they just have to receive a 'calling'.
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When am I practicing shamanism?
Original post: DennisE
Perhaps the litmus test is not how you got there but what you can do. If you're a traditional shaman and your power is weak are you worthy of great respect. If you're a modern shaman of whatever ilk and you can heal/kill, bring about changes in ordinary reality, are you less of a shaman and/or are your spirit helpers less authentic than those of an indigenous shaman? Dennis
Perhaps the litmus test is not how you got there but what you can do. If you're a traditional shaman and your power is weak are you worthy of great respect. If you're a modern shaman of whatever ilk and you can heal/kill, bring about changes in ordinary reality, are you less of a shaman and/or are your spirit helpers less authentic than those of an indigenous shaman? Dennis
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When am I practicing shamanism?
Original post: Theila
Perhaps the litmus test should be in the eyes of the community in which the Shaman practices. If you perform the duties of a Shaman, and the community is happy with your work, then you are a good Shaman. As with any occupation.
If you successfully perform soul-extractions, soul-retrievals, healings, etc. then are you not successful at being a Shaman?
Personally I believe it is up to the Great Spirit and the Shaman's clients to judge, not me.
Perhaps the litmus test should be in the eyes of the community in which the Shaman practices. If you perform the duties of a Shaman, and the community is happy with your work, then you are a good Shaman. As with any occupation.
If you successfully perform soul-extractions, soul-retrievals, healings, etc. then are you not successful at being a Shaman?
Personally I believe it is up to the Great Spirit and the Shaman's clients to judge, not me.
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When am I practicing shamanism?
Original post: crowfuzz
howdy Melusin,
it is always of worth to remember where the word "shaman" came from. and too to recognize how a person came to be such a thing in that community from which the Western world has coopted the word. however . . . . and while i wish to be respectful about core cultures and culteral appropriation, in this case that horse is way out of the barn and galloping madly down the end stretch of the track.
,]
call it shamanism or call it neo-shamanism, there is a practice in growing existance among people who were not raised tribally that consists of working with spirits to effect change. call them what you will but there does exist people of power in the Western world who work as "shamans". people who "serve" their communities (for want of a better word); by binding killers, rapists, and other ugly ilk. by dealing with possesions and ill entities. by working to shift the probabilities of wyrd to better their communities. by working for individuals in healing. IMO if this work is done with the aid of helping spirits, then it is shamanism.
and yes journey is often a part of this work. but also, again IMO, if a person can bilocate and communicate with their spirits easily, asking their spirits to take on the work which is then done, AFAIC that is also shamanism.
howdy Theila, such luck that you've had human teachers. i've come to realize that many people need to learn face to face from other people. i hope that your teachers have been blessings for you.
myself i learned from others on the net who shared their techniques. while i had always done what i call "involuntary journeys" these people shared with me how to "journey deliberately" which gave me control of my practice. most of my teaching has been from my spirits. i am one who values books though. it seems to me that for a teacher to reach all who will benefit from their words that books are a fine method.
i find the notion that people should not judge who is a shaman or a teacher to be a very New Age influenced fluffy sweet idea. somewhat along the lines of playing games and not keeping score so as to avoid hurting anyone's feelings. JMO, and all that rot. but if shamanism as a serious practice becomes overburdened with New Age PC guidelines, then it's no longer shamanism, it's New Age.
now since so may here equate shamanism with Native American ways let me say that i do recognize that many Native American folk do not believe that it's appropriate to judge another's spiritual ways. but there is a difference to my mind between a person who is studying and practicing shamanism as their personal spiritual path, and a person whose interest and guidance in shamanism is on a more "active" level. not everyone who practices shamanism is, or has any interest in being, a "shaman". though as i'm sure i said somewhere above in my tendency to be entirely too verbose, there are those who feel learning to journey has made them a "shaman". to them i say; :p yep, the big wet rasberry!
to paraphrase Dennis' excellent point; does it matter how a person becomes a "shaman"? or does it matter what they can do?
i think that how a person becomes a "shaman" is interesting. such as the concept that many modern Western shamans went through their gauntlet of calling by enduring abuse in their lives. the theory there is that the abuse thinned the veil. but others come from stable backgrounds and take up shamanism as a warrior's or a healer's path (or both) out of choice. interesting, sure, but not a deciding factor of ability.
so, to tie a little bow on what i'm trying to say; i think that what a person can do is more important than whether they've sat at the appropriate feet in learning to do so.
howdy Melusin,
it is always of worth to remember where the word "shaman" came from. and too to recognize how a person came to be such a thing in that community from which the Western world has coopted the word. however . . . . and while i wish to be respectful about core cultures and culteral appropriation, in this case that horse is way out of the barn and galloping madly down the end stretch of the track.
,]
call it shamanism or call it neo-shamanism, there is a practice in growing existance among people who were not raised tribally that consists of working with spirits to effect change. call them what you will but there does exist people of power in the Western world who work as "shamans". people who "serve" their communities (for want of a better word); by binding killers, rapists, and other ugly ilk. by dealing with possesions and ill entities. by working to shift the probabilities of wyrd to better their communities. by working for individuals in healing. IMO if this work is done with the aid of helping spirits, then it is shamanism.
and yes journey is often a part of this work. but also, again IMO, if a person can bilocate and communicate with their spirits easily, asking their spirits to take on the work which is then done, AFAIC that is also shamanism.
howdy Theila, such luck that you've had human teachers. i've come to realize that many people need to learn face to face from other people. i hope that your teachers have been blessings for you.
myself i learned from others on the net who shared their techniques. while i had always done what i call "involuntary journeys" these people shared with me how to "journey deliberately" which gave me control of my practice. most of my teaching has been from my spirits. i am one who values books though. it seems to me that for a teacher to reach all who will benefit from their words that books are a fine method.
i find the notion that people should not judge who is a shaman or a teacher to be a very New Age influenced fluffy sweet idea. somewhat along the lines of playing games and not keeping score so as to avoid hurting anyone's feelings. JMO, and all that rot. but if shamanism as a serious practice becomes overburdened with New Age PC guidelines, then it's no longer shamanism, it's New Age.
now since so may here equate shamanism with Native American ways let me say that i do recognize that many Native American folk do not believe that it's appropriate to judge another's spiritual ways. but there is a difference to my mind between a person who is studying and practicing shamanism as their personal spiritual path, and a person whose interest and guidance in shamanism is on a more "active" level. not everyone who practices shamanism is, or has any interest in being, a "shaman". though as i'm sure i said somewhere above in my tendency to be entirely too verbose, there are those who feel learning to journey has made them a "shaman". to them i say; :p yep, the big wet rasberry!
to paraphrase Dennis' excellent point; does it matter how a person becomes a "shaman"? or does it matter what they can do?
i think that how a person becomes a "shaman" is interesting. such as the concept that many modern Western shamans went through their gauntlet of calling by enduring abuse in their lives. the theory there is that the abuse thinned the veil. but others come from stable backgrounds and take up shamanism as a warrior's or a healer's path (or both) out of choice. interesting, sure, but not a deciding factor of ability.
so, to tie a little bow on what i'm trying to say; i think that what a person can do is more important than whether they've sat at the appropriate feet in learning to do so.
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When am I practicing shamanism?
Original post: Steppe Master
Aloha! And hail to all Shamans here.
"When am I practicing Shamanism?"
Each Tradition has its own criteria for its Shamans and their practices.
What Tradition do you practice within?
Aloha!
Aloha! And hail to all Shamans here.
"When am I practicing Shamanism?"
Each Tradition has its own criteria for its Shamans and their practices.
What Tradition do you practice within?
Aloha!
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When am I practicing shamanism?
Original post: Melusine
Howdy, Crowfuzz,
You are so right: the horse is out of the barn, & wildly galloping.
Practice is worth a 1000 words!
Melusine
Howdy, Crowfuzz,
You are so right: the horse is out of the barn, & wildly galloping.
Practice is worth a 1000 words!
Melusine
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When am I practicing shamanism?
Original post: Dracophoenix
I love drumming circles too. With some Native American Nations and Tribes women/girls aren't allowed to be a part of the drumming circle. However many cultures world wide use drumming where it's not considered purely masculine.
Crowfuzz you make a lot of good points.
I love drumming circles too. With some Native American Nations and Tribes women/girls aren't allowed to be a part of the drumming circle. However many cultures world wide use drumming where it's not considered purely masculine.
Crowfuzz you make a lot of good points.