Magick: Objective or Subjective?

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Original post: IAO131

93,

Do you see Magick as a subjective endeavor (changes in consciousness)? Or do you feel that Magick has objective effects (can get physical objects, cause things to physically appear/speak, see through physical walls, etc.)?

I leave the question open to discussion.

IAO131

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Original post: destructive_metaphysician

i don't think there's any difference.

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Original post: WillowDarkWytch

I think both...

And if the first happens, the second will be a "fact" in no time. When something changes inside, one starts to "emanate" some kind of energy through our attitude and actions, and we finaly get what we wanted... or maybe if we don't get it we realize that it wasn't that important. Sometimes we change our way of seeing things because of our magickal acts, and then we might get a little more mature.

I believe in both. I believe that I can get physical effects, move things in the material world by changing harmoniously some energy flows, or taking advantage in some powerful energy streams. And I believe too that sometimes the necessary change is only from the inside, and I get to work on that.

W.

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Original post: MagiAwen

93,

Do you see Magick as a subjective endeavor (changes in consciousness)? Or do you feel that Magick has objective effects (can get physical objects, cause things to physically appear/speak, see through physical walls, etc.)?

I leave the question open to discussion.

IAO131

You cannot have one without the other (subjective reality/objective reality). Both. Whether or not everyone experiences both and whether or not their interpretation realizes both...entirely different subjects.

Wasn't this discussed already not too long ago?

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: IAO131

i don't think there's any difference.

Give me a break. We know what is meant by objective and subjective. A change in your state of consciousness is subjective, a change in your environment is objective. Please dont split hairs, its not very useful.

I think both...

And if the first happens, the second will be a "fact" in no time. When something changes inside, one starts to "emanate" some kind of energy through our attitude and actions, and we finaly get what we wanted... or maybe if we don't get it we realize that it wasn't that important. Sometimes we change our way of seeing things because of our magickal acts, and then we might get a little more mature.

In this sense, Magick is only objective insofar as subjective changes alter behavior. I was thinking more of objective magick in the sense of projecting to other rooms to see objects, doing an evocation in general but specifically to get a physical object (book/money) or attain a physical aim (hurting/helping another).

I believe in both. I believe that I can get physical effects, move things in the material world by changing harmoniously some energy flows, or taking advantage in some powerful energy streams. And I believe too that sometimes the necessary change is only from the inside, and I get to work on that.

W.

If we go into the realm of 'physical effects' it becomes a subject of science or of verification. If Magick is objective in this sense, one should be able to 'prove' its objective effects.

You cannot have one without the other (subjective reality/objective reality).

This is certainly true but the question isnt about those realities but if magick can affect both.

IAO131

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Original post: destructive_metaphysician

[QUOTE=IAO131;375343]Give me a break. We know what is meant by objective and subjective. A change in your state of consciousness is subjective, a change in your environment is objective. Please dont split hairs, its not very useful.


IAO131[/QUOTE]

in terms of use, i'm not sure what the use this thread could possibly have other than some hair splitting and careful investigation of those split ends. but, either way, this thread is mostly covered (in terms of grounding metaphysics and philosophy, which is where our disagreement will lie) in our threads about the existence of reality and magic's relationship to whatever that is, where i have already spoken my peace. it's good to see some folks like magiawen making good points though, so i'm glad you posted another thread here.

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Original post: IAO131

in terms of use, i'm not sure what the use this thread could possibly have other than some hair splitting and careful investigation of those split ends.

" A change in your state of consciousness is subjective, a change in your environment is objective. " How is that splitting hairs?

but, either way, this thread is mostly covered (in terms of grounding metaphysics and philosophy, which is where our disagreement will lie) in our threads about the existence of reality and magic's relationship to whatever that is, where i have already spoken my peace.

Your 'piece'? Im not sure the threads were very clear and this focuses on a very psecific question. Something can be subjectively real but not objectively (hallucinations).

it's good to see some folks like magiawen making good points though, so i'm glad you posted another thread here.

Much obliged.

IAO131

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: MagiAwen

the question isnt about those realities but if magick can affect both

Of course it can/does. Maybe I am missing something, this all seems like a moot point here. Even that which initially affects a persons subjective experience, eventually it all affects our objective/physical world. Any time you change the inner, that in turn changes the outer. Micro to macro...one way or the other. Whether or not that affect on the physical/objective is direct would vary. And I think it also holds true the other way around. Any time you perform something that gives you rather immediate physical/objective results...it should on some level change or start change in the inner.

Give me a break. We know what is meant by objective and subjective. A change in your state of consciousness is subjective, a change in your environment is objective.

So... I'd like to ask, to be perfectly clear . I do a short operation that is intended to bolster my financial reserve and two hours later I realize we are out of milk and find $80.00 on the ground on my way into the grocery store. Is this an example of objective results as we are speaking about in your thread? Or does the money have to materialize from thin air on my kitchen table 2 minutes after the operation to be a "genuine" physical alteration ...seemingly due to magic?

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Original post: Frater Manjet

"Laiad Holq Ta Napea...

Pardon if my replies are a bit incoherent and cloudy as early morning is my only real free time.

I veiw magick from the transpersonal experiential model.

I will admit, however, there is a possibility altering our states of consciousnes may be able to influence the world outside of our own perceptions. We are bio-chemical machines and radiate various feilds. These feilds could have influence beyond our current understanding.

Looking for objective results in this area is not without merit, but it is highly unlikely that we will develop the apparati (pl?) or techniques to verify or dismiss such speculations any time soon.

Fantasy is a wonderful mother of invention and wellspring of discovery. It can however become a vehicle for that most despicible corruptor of mind - 'faith'.

VVV (210/3)
... Ds Praf Piap"

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Original post: Frater Manjet

So... I'd like to ask, to be perfectly clear . I do a short operation that is intended to bolster my financial reserve and two hours later I realize we are out of milk and find $80.00 on the ground on my way into the grocery store. Is this an example of objective results as we are speaking about in your thread? Or does the money have to materialize from thin air on my kitchen table 2 minutes after the operation to be a "genuine" physical alteration ...seemingly due to magic?

"Laiad Holq Ta Napea...

If this 'effect' is not reproducable, then it is coincidence. How many times did the person attempt such a feat without any noticable results. ( see Why does magick 'seem' to work thread.)

How does the person know that any physical alteration occurred. Did the money materialize so the person would find it? Even if there is a high proportion of such 'results' with said actions do not confuse correlation with causation.

I hate to be the proverbial stick in the mud - until I see the world economy collapse from magickians manifesting currency, which would be the effect of proving a reproducable technique to do so - I will remain doubtful at best.

VV (210/3)
...Ds Praf Piap"

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Original post: Ishvara

If all you get is "subjective" results yet aim for objective results I recommend you try something else than what has failed you so far.

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Original post: MagiAwen

If this 'effect' is not reproducable, then it is coincidence. How many times did the person attempt such a feat without any noticable results.

No, the effect is reproducable, however the monetary value changes and the results do have some variances but what is always the same is that cash is obtained within hours and legally lol. This operation has never failed, always cash..however different monetary amounts.

So, to you, this would be all coincidence. Even if when no operation is performed this person never just finds money laying around.


Meh. First off lol the world's financial system isn't quite collapsing but..well. lol Although I do think there is more than enough money to go around...if this worked all the time for everyone with increasing monetary amounts I highly doubt it would crash the economy. It should actually keep it afloat...unless everyone just hoards the money and never spends it.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Frater Manjet

"Laiad Holq ta Napea...

No, the effect is reproducable, however the monetary value changes and the results do have some variances but what is always the same is that cash is obtained within hours and legally lol. This operation has never failed, always cash..however different monetary amounts.

If it is reproducable anyone would be able to replicate it. Please, write down your operation and all requirements. I will be glad to test this and post my results. Gods know as a full time student I could use the cash.

So, to you, this would be all coincidence. Even if when no operation is performed this person never just finds money laying around.

I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to say here. Are you trying to prove a negative? That it must be valid if said result never happens when said action isn't taken?

Meh. First off lol the world's financial system isn't quite collapsing but..well. lol Although I do think there is more than enough money to go around...if this worked all the time for everyone with increasing monetary amounts I highly doubt it would crash the economy. It should actually keep it afloat...unless everyone just hoards the money and never spends it.

Now this is just a very strange notion. I didn't think that it took an economist to know you what happens when a currency is devalued, but that is way off topic.

So... please post you method here, or if you wish to save the world economy PM me. I promise I will keep all but my results private.

VVV (210/3)
... Ds Praf Piap"

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Original post: IAO131

[QUOTE=Frater Manjet;375531]"Laiad Holq ta Napea...If it is reproducable anyone would be able to replicate it. Please, write down your operation and all requirements. I will be glad to test this and post my results. Gods know as a full time student I could use the cash. [/quote]

Exactly - if Magick is a 'science' in any kind of sense, the results would be able to be reproduceable if the conditions are the same. The lack of repeatability in many workings make it un-scientific.

IAO131

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Original post: shadow flame

[QUOTE=Frater Manjet;375531]"Laiad Holq ta Napea...If it is reproducable anyone would be able to replicate it.[/QUOTE]
in science something can be reproduced if you have right equipment and under certain circumstances. not everyone has the right equipment.

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Original post: Yog-Sothoth

I don't know what all of you are talking about. Even in "science" results may vary.

Many of the results in "magic" are reproduceable, Fluid condensers, different forms of alchemy etc. This makes the results precise because in a series of experimentation the same results occur. First you experiment to make a change according to your will, first subjectively, in your mind and astral body, and many that master this, don't see any sense in making objective changes occur, altough it is possible, the proof i have is my faith, to produce results even in science, you have to have faith or skeptiscism to make something occur

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Original post: elvex

[QUOTE=Yog-Sothoth;375538]Even in "science" results may vary.[/QUOTE]
They may, but they shouldn't. Bertrand Russell said, "The power of science is its discovery of causal laws." Same causes should not produce different effects; to do so is unlawful (cf. chaotic).

If you instruct any number of people who are equally capable of doing so to toggle a light switch, you'll probably get the same results for each person (assuming no change in the mechanism other than its on/off state which behaves consistently throughout the experiment). If you instruct the same number of people to perform a strict Solomonic evocation of Astaroth, you'll likely get more variety in the results. The trick with the latter is equally capable. People are non-trivial machines (if we are machines at all), with many "internal" variables, and so the results of magical operations vary widely. Still, enough people who do Goetic work (e.g.) have similar-enough experiences with it that it continues to attract people who experiment with it and then nod in agreement each other's description of what happens during such activity. This last bit is, I think, of critical importance to any discussion of objectivity or subjectivity in magic (or anything else): that we all have experiences and give descriptions of those experiences and attempt to correlate our descriptions with others' descriptions of their experiences. As I said in an earlier, similar thread, there is no objectivity to a Goetic daemon or the works it produces. Rather there is more or less agreement among descriptions of the daemon and its works, produced by observers (who are also the ones doing the dis/agreeing).

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Original post: elvex

[QUOTE=IAO131;375200]Do you see Magick as a subjective endeavor (changes in consciousness)? Or do you feel that Magick has objective effects (can get physical objects, cause things to physically appear/speak, see through physical walls, etc.)?[/QUOTE]
Yes.

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Original post: Qez

To those who have truly seen, there is only silence.

To those who still struggle with knowledge, we extend our warmest regards with hope.

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Original post: MagiAwen

I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to say here. Are you trying to prove a negative? That it must be valid if said result never happens when said action isn't taken?

No, not trying to prove a negative. As far as what I am talking about goes...I have never had it fail and I have never had any "monetary coincidences" happen when not using the operations...is what I meant. I think I was trying to better understand your qualifications of physical...or something. Not sure, I was tired.

I'll pm ya. Because I only know that it is repeatable if I do it...I don't know that anyone else has done them with the same success.

So this will be interesting. I have gotten several pm's and I'll send what I have been doing to all.

However.... like someone said above... is something I agree with as well.... it should be repeatable if everyone has the same "equipment" and one of the components to this...I do believe is the magician themself...so we'll see how it goes. Though I tend to think that these are so simple that as long as the magician isn't sabotaging themselves then they should work.

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Original post: MagiAwen

On second thought. I'm starting a thread on it and will post everything I did from the beginning.

I was just thinking right now...there are some things I did before I started the money stuff... and possibly that is part of it.

So it will get long.

These are not huge secrets...in fact many of these are taken off the net and modified...plus I don't believe in keeping helpful knowledge secret.

There are a few here who expressed wanting to do group experiments and post results of those to see how it went for everyone....so...yeah. I'll start a new post in this section.

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Original post: IAO131

I don't know what all of you are talking about. Even in "science" results may vary.

Technically not really. If you say you are going to get X and you get Y, you failed. THis doesnt occur in a lot of Magick where you say 'oh I guess Y is sort of like X anyhow!'

Many of the results in "magic" are reproduceable, Fluid condensers, different forms of alchemy etc. This makes the results precise because in a series of experimentation the same results occur. First you experiment to make a change according to your will, first subjectively, in your mind and astral body, and many that master this, don't see any sense in making objective changes occur, altough it is possible, the proof i have is my faith, to produce results even in science, you have to have faith or skeptiscism to make something occur

HEY ASTRALMAGICKCRAFT: This guy just said he had faith - remember when you said no one said that?

IAO131

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Original post: Yog-Sothoth

[QUOTE=IAO131;375644]Technically not really. If you say you are going to get X and you get Y, you failed. THis doesnt occur in a lot of Magick where you say 'oh I guess Y is sort of like X anyhow!'



HEY ASTRALMAGICKCRAFT: This guy just said he had faith - remember when you said no one said that?

IAO131[/QUOTE]

In magic and in science logical and ilogical results happen, ilogical is a form of logical.

I don't see what is wrong with the faith part, clearly you do not differenciate between blind faith and faith. For me faith is just like skepticism (skepticism is just another form of saying you beleive in one thing) it is a conviction that leads you to a pursuit that ends up in finding proof, to pursue this conviction you have to beleive in you conviction.

Science is blind faith because they cannot prove existance of life, how the hell are they going to prove the big bang theory? magic and different philosophical systems can explain this clearly, science cannot explain higher truths, magic is a higher science that can explain this, and if you think this is irrational or ilogical science is too, ever heard about quantum mechanics?

John Bell showed that the EPR paradox led to experimentally testable differences between quantum mechanics and local realistic theories. These experimentations have been performed confirming the accuracy of quantum mechanics, thus demonstrating that the physical world cannot be described by local realistic theories. this makes a lot of scientific theories just as ilogical, because they, then defy a different form of logic that would originally considered as ilogical. So yeah, even science proved and accepted it falls short in many aspects. You have to have a lot of blind faith to beleive in theories that are still full of holes.

Magic too leads to experimentally testable results that CAN or cannot defy logic, if it is experimentally testable and defies logic, ilogical is logical.

Of course science is important, but without philosophical or mystical teachings it is worthless, magic fills both. Science fills mundane necesities, magic higher ones

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Original post: KCh

Magick is certainly the union of Subject and Object, not one or the other.

This limiting of 'Objective or Subjective' is horridly boorish mediocrity-thought.

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Original post: elvex

[QUOTE=KCh;375743]Magick is certainly the union of Subject and Object, not one or the other.[/QUOTE]
Hear, hear!