Why Does Magick Seem to Work?

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Why Does Magick Seem to Work?

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Original post: IAO131

93,

Why does Magick seem to work?

I will give a few reasons:

1) COGNITIVE DISSONANCE: Cognitive dissonance is the feeling of tension when two contradictory beliefs are held so that one must do something to resolve this tension. For example, one could believe (like many Adventists & Davidians) that the WORLD IS GOING TO END ON SATURDAY (or a spaceship will appear on October 15, for example) but then the world does not end (or space ship does not appear) on the specified date. So what happens? We have two ideas (a) World will end on date X and (b) World did not end on date X - so we resolve this tension in one of many ways. For example, it could be "Oh, it was really Pacific time" or "Oh maybe we got the year wrong" or (in the case of Branch Davidians) "Oh, your love for the world stopped the world from ending" or many other possible ideas.

This applies to magick in a simple way: we have the belief (a) Doing X and Y and Z will produce result R because of magick (b) Doing X and Y and Z did not produce result R. There are many excuses, or 'outs' at this point. Im sure many people are thinking of a few at this moment: oh, someone was in the room; oh, the energy was bad; oh, the stars were not in alignment, etc etc etc.

How much of Magick's supposed results or lack of results comes from cognitive dissonance?

Cognitive dissonance has a subset: effort justification. Effort justification is simply where someone tries to justify something they put a lot of effort into. For example, Bobby Bob put a lot of effort into making his new theory about airplane lift but it was proven wrong - he justifies this by saying (a) theres a conspiracy to suppress this information (b) he had fun making the theory anyway (c) he learned a lot anyhow or infinite other justifications. A beautiful example of effort justification is Scientology - people think 'Ive just dropped 10,000+ dollars on this program... [insert justification for staying here]'. Investment in a paradigm about magic, crystals, tarot, ESP, etc. all follow this justification because of the time investment put into them (let alone money).


2) CONFIRMATION BIAS: Confirmation Bias is where one tends to notice and to look for what confirms one's beliefs, and to ignore, not look for, or undervalue the relevance of what contradicts one's beliefs. "It is the peculiar and perpetual error of the human understanding to be more moved and excited by affirmatives than by negatives." - Francis Bacon (a person who was laughed at for saying that hte best way to find out how many teeth a horse has was to look inside a horse's mouth instead of just making guesses)

Does this really need explaining? For example: Bobby Bob got into magick after his airplane theory didnt work out and so he performs ritual X. Every time something does not conform to the ritual (for example, a book doesnt come when he willed it) he ignores it, and the one time it works he remembers it forever. How much of magick is simple confirmation bias?

There are a few other reasons that magick can appear to work but here are a couple to get us started.

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Why Does Magick Seem to Work?

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Original post: AstralMagickCraft

Thats something I've never heard before.

And it changed my life. :rolleyes:

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Why Does Magick Seem to Work?

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Original post: IAO131

[QUOTE=AstralMagickCraft;374822]Thats something I've never heard before.

And it changed my life. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

3) Sarcasm when faced with real challenges

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Why Does Magick Seem to Work?

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Original post: Raal

Na, wie geht's Dir? Or should I say: How are you? LOL!

Super thread here: "is it useful?"

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Why Does Magick Seem to Work?

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Original post: IAO131

[QUOTE=Raal;374881]Na, wie geht's Dir? Or should I say: How are you? LOL!

Super thread here: "is it useful?"[/QUOTE]

Es geht mir gut. Why did you capitalize 'Dir'? Your German sucks.

Its useful if you actually consider it... but I doubt many will in that it actually challenges their 'magical thinking'. I fail to see how most occultists are any different from fundamentalist christians insofar as they say 'I dont need reason/science/explanations, I have faith'

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Why Does Magick Seem to Work?

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Original post: hunterwitch_bloodpact

i love this question
Why does Magick seem to work?
seem


that kinda dulled it down to a microbe then infected it with some kind of virus XD

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Original post: IAO131

[QUOTE=hunterwitch_bloodpact;374929]i love this question



seem


that kinda dulled it down to a microbe then infected it with some kind of virus XD[/QUOTE]

You got me at the sarcasm. (Tally is up to two).

Care to address the issue? Do you recognize or even comprehend how the actual thread relates to title? Do you understand the play off of the other thread 'Why does magick work?' in this forum?

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Original post: AstralMagickCraft
I dont need reason/science/explanations, I have faith'
I FAIL TO SEE AN OCCULTIST WHO SAYS THAT!!!

Make that straw man your bitch, IAO, you make it your bitch woohoo! Beat that straw man.

But, I do agree that they are by definition the same.

(Actually, if rely on faith in the face of reason, as said, I cease considering them an occultist)

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Original post: callum

IAO, i find it strage that you, as a professed Thelamite, have you used the word Magick in this context. Surely you appreciate the profound mysteries in Crowley's definition: the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will.... Every Intentional act is a Magical Act. Science/Knowlege, Art/Perception, Change/Time, Will/Life, Intention/Meaning... what dreamy stuff this world is made of!!! has the scientific method really come to grips with any of these ideas? or does the scientific method eliminate these precisely because these cannot be objective experiences? there is an object and a subject... and magick is all about the subjective aspect of reality. not about delusive unreality or fantasy as you seem determined to believe... it is about the subjective aspect of reality (which is, in a sense, the only aspect of reality we ever know). again and again you argue the most naive realist, and literalist, position without any indication that you have any familiarity with Magick.

notice how Crowley refers to Science AND Art, Object AND Subject in his definitions. for a person who can quote Crowley at the drop of a hat it seems to me that you have grasped preciously little of his work.

you really do your cause no service with you bombastic. missionary zeal... there are much better ways of persuading people or encouraging them to consider alternative perspectives.... perhaps study the methods used by some of the more lucid Satanists here: they encourage healthy scepticism without acting like complete assholes. i very much doubt that your pro-rational spamming of this forum has really won a single convert... your "martyrdom" may have given you a bit of a sense of importance but suspect that there will even be a diminishing return for that buzz.

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Original post: Fluvve

Nice post IAO131, its always good to look at something from different angles. Much to think about there.

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Original post: Rawiri

This is definitely a post worthy of consideration.

I'm not exactly the most well read on social psychology, but as far as I can tell the act of trying to reduce this 'cognitive dissonance' seems to be a very real sort of 'ego defence' and I have certainly seen it plenty of times, in myself and others.

That is personally one of the beautiful things about 'rituals' IMO. They are generally specific, you either did what they said or you didn't. This limits the 'outs' and 'excuses' people can use...but then again, a lot of people don't do them as given anyhow and so will still find some way to make all those excuses up. Free range 'eclectic' magic doesn't often allow such a thing, so there is much more elbow space for the ego to toss pillows at oncoming objects.

I had never heard of effort justification before, but that's understandable consider I just have a dabbling interest in psychology. But I can definitely relate to it. I spent years doing certain "magical systems" honestly trying to get results I wanted in the world to improve my life. They didn't come, and if something did seem to it could easily be discarded as coincidence. I eventually decided to just do things the old fashioned way...put blame where blame was due...on myself and work hard in 'normal' ways to get what I wanted. But it took me years to get to that, I clung tenaciously to the magical systems I was doing...I had spent so much time with them. I didn't want to consider the idea that what I was doing was not working how I was told it would...to think I had wasted all my time!

Well confirmation bias is really just more ego defense I suppose. Accumulating examples one has found where something seemed to 'work' so it is anecdotal evidence to be given later when doubts pop up...and frankly often the memory is quite tricky which adds to it even more.

But, I think confirmation bias could possibly be done away with as a reason 'magic seems to work.' By the simple act of keeping what Crowley perhaps brought to light best and absolutely insisted on...the 'magical journal' as well as perhaps a daily diary. If you write down that you do a ritual for so and so, and so and so does not appear then you cannot so easily defend yourself and ignore it. The first one is a bit harder and really just comes down to not making excuses...simple, but harder than keeping a journal, for me at least.

Thank you for this, IAO131

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Original post: Raal
callum;374985 wrote:IAO, i find it strage that you, as a professed Thelamite, have you used the word Magick in this context. Surely you appreciate the profound mysteries in Crowley's definition: the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will.... Every Intentional act is a Magical Act. Science/Knowlege, Art/Perception, Change/Time, Will/Life, Intention/Meaning... what dreamy stuff this world is made of!!! has the scientific method really come to grips with any of these ideas? or does the scientific method eliminate these precisely because these cannot be objective experiences? there is an object and a subject... and magick is all about the subjective aspect of reality. not about delusive unreality or fantasy as you seem determined to believe... it is about the subjective aspect of reality (which is, in a sense, the only aspect of reality we ever know). again and again you argue the most naive realist, and literalist, position without any indication that you have any familiarity with Magick.

notice how Crowley refers to Science AND Art, Object AND Subject in his definitions. for a person who can quote Crowley at the drop of a hat it seems to me that you have grasped preciously little of his work.

you really do your cause no service with you bombastic. missionary zeal... there are much better ways of persuading people or encouraging them to consider alternative perspectives.... perhaps study the methods used by some of the more lucid Satanists here: they encourage healthy scepticism without acting like complete assholes. i very much doubt that your pro-rational spamming of this forum has really won a single convert... your "martyrdom" may have given you a bit of a sense of importance but suspect that there will even be a diminishing return for that buzz.
I pretty much agree with callum there; poster seems to make an impression only on people who are absolutely new to magic(k)- anyone who even has a iota of practical experience (in either science or magick) can easily see the shallowness of his rhetoric.
Es geht mir gut. Why did you capitalize 'Dir'? Your German sucks.
When used as a direct form of address the personal pronoun can be written in either way. (Dir/dir- both are correct in that case).

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Original post: MagiAwen
IAO131 wrote:
Why does Magick seem to work?

Easy answer: We choose to believe it does. However, how someone chooses to "explain away" why it doesn´t I agree could be cognitive dissonance.

To me, it is about perspective. To me personally there never are no results and every result is important. This applies to basic life events, magic, psychology and, well everything.

How we choose to view the world, our life and our part in both is the biggest factor here. If you are an emotionally driven person, that is, a person who bases their choices from a purely emotional front I believe you have more of a chance of falling into cognitive dissonance or even delusion....living the illusion.

Again, in my personal view, if a spell or ritual comes out with results I either did not expect or a result that I would not have preferred, I trust that whatever has happened has happened for a reason. And not because of a bigger "plan" or a dude hanging out in the sky. I believe strongly in energetic vibration and actual energetic drawing and other concepts similar. I don´t believe this because of a book, I believe this because it is my experience and a way to put into words those experiences. There are many things we cannot prove...and whether they have actually happened or not, whether or not our explanations are correct, I still cannot deny the experiences. And those experiences stay explainable as far as my knowledge combined with experience at the moment until I find a better way to explain them for myself.

I see cognitive dissonance as a personal struggle mostly. Without speaking "magically"...many people practice cognitive dissonance on a daily basis. In fact, what I see a lot of in my area is to it`s extreme as denial and lack of taking responsibility for actions. Something-someone else is always the problem. Didn´t get that job? Must have been the dress or the interviewer right...it could never be that you simply are not right for the job. Didn´t get the guy to ask you out...must have been the neighbor girl who is always sabotaging you. The moon was too full...didn´t wear enough amethyst jewelry.

The thing is...there really is no reason to be a slave to cognitive dissonance...which I actually think is a very large problem. Probably one that is all over the world but I was born and raised in America...so that is the only place I can comment on at the moment.

There are no technical failures in magic. Actually... if you want to look at it (as many do) as an alchemy\development of the self...then look at your "no results" and see it for what it is. It is a result...and if it´s not the one you ultimately wanted, you need to examine...not the ritual...but the magician...and not what the magician did during the ritual...but who the magician is. If it is true that the magic is only as good as the magician...then all "problems" or "lack of results" comes from the magician and not because they said a word wrong or the cat walked through the circle....or because the moon was waxing instead of waning.

When a magician sees things for what they are, accepts them...sees themselves for what they are and accepts that (changes if it is needed) then there is no issue about results or whether there is magic or whether it works or seems to work or not.
IAO131 wrote: How much of Magick's supposed results or lack of results comes from cognitive dissonance?

For the majority of people, I would have to say.....most of it. 97%

I like the bit about effort justification. I saw this a lot when I was ghost writing for a certain industry. I saw it in the people that attended seminars, workshops, and etc..the ones who thought they would buy the perfect book or "system" to make their life wonderful. And the sad part is that it is free to be happy...you just need to be equipped with knowledge and self honesty. There really are no books you must buy...same as in magic...people have used it for millenia...and most of those people didn´t have all these books that are a "must" or these authors that are so knowledgeable and "powerful".

I happen to know a woman that suffers from a huge case of confirmation bias. She has no idea of course and she does not see what is blatantly pointed out to her. This woman thought all ceremonial magicians...nay all magicians and witches were evil. She was a Reiki master and had all these experiences in her life with shaman of several Native American tribes...but to her all religion and all magicians were evil. This was her experience as fed to her by parents and peers throughout her life. She never looked for what was really there...she only looked for what she was told to look for as the supposed warning signs. There was a lot of projection and interjection on her part. She had me "figured out" before she even really knew me...because she based her interpretation of me and my life by what she was told by other people and what she read in biased books.

There was never any reality check...never a balance of bias...if we can call it that. She never considered that the people and ideas she had always followed could have been anything other than correct.
IAO131 wrote: How much of magick is simple confirmation bias?

My answer here is also going to be... for the majority of people quite a lot... 97%

I also do not think that it is this simple. True these things can happen whether you are utilizing classical magic or not...we are human, these are human factors that people develop as they experience things. I think the real issue here is not about magic but about people in general.

I realized just now that I am speaking as if I am above all of these traits or...should we call them practices. I may have gotten past them for the most part, but to say that I have never "fallen victim" or have "been there done that" would not be correct. I spent a good amount of time in cognitive dissonance land...perhaps not with magic but with life...and the fact that I finally recognized it and many other things and have admitted it all to myself and worked past it all, I feel that not only my magic but my life is on a much better track. Well..not only feel...I see the results of the entire thing....which is resulting in a much more goal oriented future and much more happiness and contentment in my life. That, I feel, has as much to do with magic as it does with psychology.

Just one last thing.

Why is it when someone decides to challenge minds or offer an alternative discussion....one that apparently some do not like...is the poster of said item immediately called into question with their motives? It seems very similar to the type of personality traits or what I call psychological denialisms...that the poster is actually talking about.

But that is just me. I do not take posts personally and for me they are mostly for discussion and if the need be, intelligent argument.

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Original post: IAO131
AstralMagickCraft;374961 wrote:I FAIL TO SEE AN OCCULTIST WHO SAYS THAT!!!

Make that straw man your bitch, IAO, you make it your bitch woohoo! Beat that straw man.

But, I do agree that they are by definition the same.

(Actually, if rely on faith in the face of reason, as said, I cease considering them an occultist)
Do you see the inanity of your post? You say its a straw man and then agree to it? See the 'Think magick is real, prove it' thread for many instances of people essentially saying 'I know it works, I dont need proof'. That, my squirming friend, is called faith.
callum;374985 wrote:IAO, i find it strage that you, as a professed Thelamite, have you used the word Magick in this context. Surely you appreciate the profound mysteries in Crowley's definition: the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will.... Every Intentional act is a Magical Act. Science/Knowlege, Art/Perception, Change/Time, Will/Life, Intention/Meaning... what dreamy stuff this world is made of!!!
Agreed, mostly. Im using magic in the sense of Ceremonial Magick as this is the CM forum.
has the scientific method really come to grips with any of these ideas?
Uh, yes. They, in accordance with their Will, caused enough change to get a man or two on the Moon - to make cars - to make wireless phones - to make your laptop, etc. Thats more change than an occultist ever did.
or does the scientific method eliminate these precisely because these cannot be objective experiences? there is an object and a subject... and magick is all about the subjective aspect of reality.
Oh really? I think many (AstralMagickCraft?) might idsagre that 'its all subjective.' There was a gigantic thread about just this.
not about delusive unreality or fantasy as you seem determined to believe... it is about the subjective aspect of reality (which is, in a sense, the only aspect of reality we ever know). again and again you argue the most naive realist, and literalist, position without any indication that you have any familiarity with Magick.
Actually this isnt a 'naive realist' position at all (do you know what that phrase means in, gasp, science! which you appropriated it from?). Im quite familiar with magick, hence why I made this thread. The old ad hominem attack of me out of ignorance that I somehow dont understand or am not familiar with magick is getting old and worn out - try again.
notice how Crowley refers to Science AND Art, Object AND Subject in his definitions.
Im pretty sure you're tacking on the object and subject part. But he does refer to Scientific Illuminism as "the Method of Science." Even doing chemistry experiments or psychology experiments requires a little bit of art.
for a person who can quote Crowley at the drop of a hat it seems to me that you have grasped preciously little of his work.
I appreciate the ignorant insult but I beg to differ.
you really do your cause no service with you bombastic. missionary zeal...
What exactly is bombastic or missionary zeal? Posting two items that question your belief so you project bombasticism and zeal onto me (Projection: Another comment defense of occultists who feel threatened).
there are much better ways of persuading people or encouraging them to consider alternative perspectives....
Please do tell.
perhaps study the methods used by some of the more lucid Satanists here: they encourage healthy scepticism without acting like complete assholes.
How is anything in this thread acting like a complete asshole? You are the one calling me a complete asshole which seems like more of a complete asshole thing to do, really.
i very much doubt that your pro-rational spamming of this forum has really won a single convert... your "martyrdom" may have given you a bit of a sense of importance but suspect that there will even be a diminishing return for that buzz.
Well, you're wrong on two fronts. For one thing they 'have won converts' in the sense that people PM me and thank me publicly (check out the post below yours). Another thing my object isnt to win converts - that is your pathetic attempt at understanding something that is quite simple - it is to make people question their entrenched beliefs which are as fundamentalist as some christians. Yes, some christians.

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Original post: IAO131
Fluvve;374990 wrote:Nice post IAO131, its always good to look at something from different angles. Much to think about there.
Thanks.
Rawiri;375015 wrote:This is definitely a post worthy of consideration.

I'm not exactly the most well read on social psychology, but as far as I can tell the act of trying to reduce this 'cognitive dissonance' seems to be a very real sort of 'ego defence' and I have certainly seen it plenty of times, in myself and others.

That is personally one of the beautiful things about 'rituals' IMO. They are generally specific, you either did what they said or you didn't. This limits the 'outs' and 'excuses' people can use...but then again, a lot of people don't do them as given anyhow and so will still find some way to make all those excuses up. Free range 'eclectic' magic doesn't often allow such a thing, so there is much more elbow space for the ego to toss pillows at oncoming objects.
I think you would be surprised at the amount of excuses people tend to conjure up (pun intended).
I had never heard of effort justification before, but that's understandable consider I just have a dabbling interest in psychology. But I can definitely relate to it. I spent years doing certain "magical systems" honestly trying to get results I wanted in the world to improve my life. They didn't come, and if something did seem to it could easily be discarded as coincidence. I eventually decided to just do things the old fashioned way...put blame where blame was due...on myself and work hard in 'normal' ways to get what I wanted. But it took me years to get to that, I clung tenaciously to the magical systems I was doing...I had spent so much time with them. I didn't want to consider the idea that what I was doing was not working how I was told it would...to think I had wasted all my time!
Im glad you were strong enough to overcome the fact that you mightve wasted your time.
Well confirmation bias is really just more ego defense I suppose. Accumulating examples one has found where something seemed to 'work' so it is anecdotal evidence to be given later when doubts pop up...and frankly often the memory is quite tricky which adds to it even more.

But, I think confirmation bias could possibly be done away with as a reason 'magic seems to work.' By the simple act of keeping what Crowley perhaps brought to light best and absolutely insisted on...the 'magical journal' as well as perhaps a daily diary. If you write down that you do a ritual for so and so, and so and so does not appear then you cannot so easily defend yourself and ignore it. The first one is a bit harder and really just comes down to not making excuses...simple, but harder than keeping a journal, for me at least.

Thank you for this, IAO131
The problem with this is that people won't write down when a ritual didnt work or they will forget abotu it - even if its in your 'magical journal'. Or what is really important is that they will forget about hte 100 times nothing happened and keep thinking about and talking about the one thing something seemed to 'happen.' Thats how it works.

Thanks for reading and not being overly hostile like the normal few. Its nice to have an actual conversation instead of just reading ad hominem attacks and whining.
Raal;375043 wrote:I pretty much agree with callum there; poster seems to make an impression only on people who are absolutely new to magic(k)- anyone who even has a iota of practical experience (in either science or magick) can easily see the shallowness of his rhetoric.
Callum is talking about a wide Thelemic definition and Im talking abotu hte specific definition of ceremonial magick that applies to Thelema, Golden Dawn, Grimoire-folks or really anyone. Its pretty clear.

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Original post: IAO131
MagiAwen;375045 wrote:Easy answer: We choose to believe it does. However, how someone chooses to "explain away" why it doesn´t I agree could be cognitive dissonance.

To me, it is about perspective. To me personally there never are no results and every result is important. This applies to basic life events, magic, psychology and, well everything.

How we choose to view the world, our life and our part in both is the biggest factor here. If you are an emotionally driven person, that is, a person who bases their choices from a purely emotional front I believe you have more of a chance of falling into cognitive dissonance or even delusion....living the illusion.

Again, in my personal view, if a spell or ritual comes out with results I either did not expect or a result that I would not have preferred, I trust that whatever has happened has happened for a reason.
Interesting but still this is another 'out': saying that, no matter what happens, it happened for a reason. To an extent this is right, even to science since every effect has a cause, yet in another sense it is another 'out' because when things dont 'go according to plan' then an excuse is just conjured. The point of magick is that it should produce certain results - and when it doesnt, these kind of defenses tend to kick in.
And not because of a bigger "plan" or a dude hanging out in the sky. I believe strongly in energetic vibration and actual energetic drawing and other concepts similar. I don´t believe this because of a book, I believe this because it is my experience and a way to put into words those experiences. There are many things we cannot prove...and whether they have actually happened or not, whether or not our explanations are correct, I still cannot deny the experiences. And those experiences stay explainable as far as my knowledge combined with experience at the moment until I find a better way to explain them for myself.
Example?
I see cognitive dissonance as a personal struggle mostly.
Thats exactly what it is - indeed.
Without speaking "magically"...many people practice cognitive dissonance on a daily basis. In fact, what I see a lot of in my area is to it`s extreme as denial and lack of taking responsibility for actions. Something-someone else is always the problem. Didn´t get that job? Must have been the dress or the interviewer right...it could never be that you simply are not right for the job. Didn´t get the guy to ask you out...must have been the neighbor girl who is always sabotaging you. The moon was too full...didn´t wear enough amethyst jewelry.
Indeed - this would be more specifically the defense mechanism of 'transference' and 'rationalization' and 'deflection' combined.
The thing is...there really is no reason to be a slave to cognitive dissonance...which I actually think is a very large problem. Probably one that is all over the world but I was born and raised in America...so that is the only place I can comment on at the moment.

There are no technical failures in magic.
I think there are and its clear when this happens. If you set out to do X and A B R Q Z L M or P happens, it failed.
Actually... if you want to look at it (as many do) as an alchemy\development of the self...then look at your "no results" and see it for what it is. It is a result...and if it´s not the one you ultimately wanted, you need to examine...not the ritual...but the magician...and not what the magician did during the ritual...but who the magician is.
This is a much broader view than what I intended which is the ceremonial magic of intending to cause certain results.
For the majority of people, I would have to say.....most of it. 97%
Agreed...

Interesting stories.
My answer here is also going to be... for the majority of people quite a lot... 97%
Agreed....
I also do not think that it is this simple. True these things can happen whether you are utilizing classical magic or not...we are human, these are human factors that people develop as they experience things. I think the real issue here is not about magic but about people in general.
Absolutely - the problem is that these are normal human cognitive biases that get applied to whatever endeavor the human is undertaking. In this case they are being applied to CM.

Why is it when someone decides to challenge minds or offer an alternative discussion....one that apparently some do not like...is the poster of said item immediately called into question with their motives? It seems very similar to the type of personality traits or what I call psychological denialisms...that the poster is actually talking about.
Ironic, isnt it?
But that is just me. I do not take posts personally and for me they are mostly for discussion and if the need be, intelligent argument.
I appreciate it.

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Why Does Magick Seem to Work?

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Original post: 1000ShadesofGrey

Please people, be passionate about your beliefs but cool on your reasoning.

Reduce each other ideas to rubble if you have to, but be civil with one another.


Why does magick seem to work?
I don't know...Because it works?

Magic should be faced like any other human activity. And like any other activity is full of delusional people.

It has a learning period when people can't seem to do anything right, and them people start having success. But one or two successes wonâ??t make anyone a magician. Even a broken watch will give the right time twice a day. One is only a magician when one can consistently reproduce those results.

If you canâ??t do that, and you are still â??doing magicâ?Â

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Why Does Magick Seem to Work?

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Original post: IAO131
1000ShadesofGrey;375087 wrote: Why does magick seem to work?
I don't know...Because it works?

Magic should be faced like any other human activity. And like any other activity is full of delusional people.
LOL - very true!
It has a learning period when people can't seem to do anything right, and them people start having success. But one or two successes wonâ??t make anyone a magician. Even a broken watch will give the right time twice a day. One is only a magician when one can consistently reproduce those results.
I could not agree with you more - great analogy (especially in relation to confirmation bias).

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Why Does Magick Seem to Work?

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Original post: koolbear05

"Even a broken watch will give the right time twice a day"

Oh now I get it! Magic "seems" to work. Hehehe :p

IF my magic does not work there is ALWAYS a reasonable cause. You can tell me I am lying or I am delusional but itâ??s the truth (who would be practicing magic otherwise?). Also I THINK most of my magic works so I'm not remembering one spell forever (call it coincidence), I PERSONALLY havenâ??t met one person yet who experienced what the OP wrote. Then again I'm not basing this on ceremonial magic.

"One is only a magician when one can consistently reproduce those results."

Was this basically your point of the thread IAO131? (I need things written out in simple sentences :p) If so I fully agree.

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Why Does Magick Seem to Work?

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Original post: callum
Agreed, mostly. Im using magic in the sense of Ceremonial Magick as this is the CM forum.

i believe that to a large extent your distinction is artificial... Ceremonial Magic is an act of Magick with all the same mysteries.

Uh, yes. They, in accordance with their Will, caused enough change to get a man or two on the Moon - to make cars - to make wireless phones - to make your laptop, etc. Thats more change than an occultist ever did.

.. and how does going to the moon demonstrate an scientifc understanding of what constitutes knowledge, what the experience of art is, what the process of time is, the perculiarity of being or what it is that makes an act meaningul? Has any science really done anything but nibble at the edges of these questions? (my questions are rhoetorical by the way)


Oh really? I think many (AstralMagickCraft?) might idsagre that 'its all subjective.' There was a gigantic thread about just this.

... i'm fairly confident that if i had an hour or two to spare i could convince most people that it is entirely reasonable to believe that the entire universe is "subjective".
Actually this isnt a 'naive realist' position at all (do you know what that phrase means in, gasp, science! which you appropriated it from?). Im quite familiar with magick, hence why I made this thread. The old ad hominem attack of me out of ignorance that I somehow dont understand or am not familiar with magick is getting old and worn out - try again.

From the grand oracle Wikipedai:

It may be characterized as the acceptance of the following 5 beliefs.
  1. There exists a world of material objects.
  2. Statements about these objects can be known to be true through sense-experience.
  3. These objects exist not only when they are being perceived but also when they are not perceived. The objects of perception are largely, we might want to say, perception-independent.
  4. These objects are also able to retain properties of the types we perceive them as having, even when they are not being perceived. Their properties are perception-independent.
  5. By means of our senses, we perceive the world directly, and pretty much as it is. In the main, our claims to have knowledge of it are justified. [3]
The debate over the nature of conscious experience is confounded by the deeper epistemological question of whether the world we see around us is the real world itself, or merely an internal perceptual copy of that world generated by neural processes in our brain. In other words this is the question of direct realism, also known as naive realism, as opposed to indirect realism, or representationalism.[4]
this seems to me to be your general perspective on things... i would be interested in which of these beliefs you do not hold... definitely 1-3 (which are the points of contention here). i'm actually quite interested on you take on belief 5. really this is the only issue that i'd really be interested in discussing further with you.

.. but its a new ad hominen for me... while i made various accusations at people in this forum this is the first time i have ever felt the need to accuse someone of this.
Im pretty sure you're tacking on the object and subject part. But he does refer to Scientific Illuminism as "the Method of Science." Even doing chemistry experiments or psychology experiments requires a little bit of art.

doing a chemistry experiment actually requires a great deal more Art than i think you will admit...


I appreciate the ignorant insult but I beg to differ.

ignorance all round then....
What exactly is bombastic or missionary zeal? Posting two items that question your belief so you project bombasticism and zeal onto me (Projection: Another comment defense of occultists who feel threatened).

we're not that stupid.... though i admit you're not really one for seeing patterns
Please do tell.

i believe my very next sentence did... apologies.
How is anything in this thread acting like a complete asshole? You are the one calling me a complete asshole which seems like more of a complete asshole thing to do, really.

my statement was: "they encourage healthy scepticism without acting like complete assholes". apologies or besmirching you stainless reputation by implication.
Well, you're wrong on two fronts. For one thing they 'have won converts' in the sense that people PM me and thank me publicly (check out the post below yours). Another thing my object isnt to win converts - that is your pathetic attempt at understanding something that is quite simple - it is to make people question their entrenched beliefs which are as fundamentalist as some christians. Yes, some christians

why do you feel the need to "make people" question their entreched beliefs about magic. surely in a time when your country is on the threshold of financial ruin because of mass greed and stupidity, you can find a more ambitious project upon which to expend your energy. also i personally believe that many of the beliefs that people express here are not entreched but are very fragile, easy to destroy... they need to evolve rather than be obliterated.

Koolbear05 said:

Please people, be passionate about your beliefs but cool on your reasoning.

its all in good fun... a few insults add a bit of drama to the what's really a boring undergraduate topic... IAO131 loves this sort of thing... we all do. most of us are adults and know the real insignificance of the argument of wizards ;)

time for me to resume healthy silence,

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Why Does Magick Seem to Work?

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Original post: MagiAwen
IAO131 wrote:Interesting but still this is another 'out': saying that, no matter what happens, it happened for a reason. To an extent this is right, even to science since every effect has a cause, yet in another sense it is another 'out' because when things dont 'go according to plan' then an excuse is just conjured. The point of magick is that it should produce certain results - and when it doesnt, these kind of defenses tend to kick in.

I do not see acceptance of whatever happens as something that needs to happen is exactly an out or a rationalization for unintended results. It certainly is not a reason to just say "oh ok...this was meant to happen so I won't try again"...To me, failure is an event that should make you take notice of yourself. Basically...if unintended results are generated you should examine them for what they are...not make things up as excuses...but an opportunity to examine the entire operation, your motives and etc. Of course... there are times when you get a result that you did not intend that is better than what you did intend...that I find interesting.

MagiAwen wrote: And not because of a bigger "plan" or a dude hanging out in the sky. I believe strongly in energetic vibration and actual energetic drawing and other concepts similar. I don´t believe this because of a book, I believe this because it is my experience and a way to put into words those experiences. There are many things we cannot prove...and whether they have actually happened or not, whether or not our explanations are correct, I still cannot deny the experiences. And those experiences stay explainable as far as my knowledge combined with experience at the moment until I find a better way to explain them for myself.
IAO131 wrote: Example?

I'm not sure what it is you would like to see an example of. The type of experiences I am referring to...or the energetic vibration belief/theory?

IAO131 wrote: I think there are and its clear when this happens. If you set out to do X and A B R Q Z L M or P happens, it failed.

I agree with us both, it depends on how you choose to look at each instance. Yes if I set out for result A and get result B then the operation in it's intention is a failure. However, there is still a result...there never is lack of result. That is probably more to what I was saying...since so many people say that no results happen....to me that is really not possible, there is always a result..just whether or not it was the result you wanted.

The times when results get really interesting is when it seems like you did not get what you wanted at first...but a bit later you do...seemingly from the "failure".
IAO131 wrote: This is a much broader view than what I intended which is the ceremonial magic of intending to cause certain results.

Alright. Although I still posit that the magician needs to examine more themselves than their operation, per se. Of course... this depends as well I guess. I don't consider myself a traditional CM...whatever that might mean...and it is my understanding that many traditionals do not consider the magician and believe that what magic there is comes directly from spirits, the magician need only know the actions and words that affect or control those spirits. I think this is an oversimplification but technically correct...but still an oversimplification.

If man truly is a microcosm of the universe or macrocosm...which is a further reflection of a large macrocosm...etc.etc... then as they say, by knowing and controlling yourself, you can control all there is. At least in some respect. However, that range of influence a magician has is wholy dependent on the magician and not some spirit or willy-nilly happenstance...or at any rate, it doesn't have to be. I think I'm getting off my point.

Point being...what can be applied to a specific aspect can also be applied to larger aspects. Not sure if that's clear or not, but I trust you'll let me know :)
IAO131 wrote: Absolutely - the problem is that these are normal human cognitive biases that get applied to whatever endeavor the human is undertaking. In this case they are being applied to CM.

This is why it irks me that people get defensive when these discussions comes up. Ironic....for sure. If a magician is so insecure as to bristle hair at a ...well not simple...but yet simple psychological issue that has implications across all human cognitive perception then...what kind of magician...even what kind of person are they?

People like to say that magic is a natural thing...which I agree with. But at the same time they deny other natural things...such as psychological explanations for human behavior. In my personal research and experience I have found a way to explain most of my dog's behavior. Whether it is scientifically or clinically correct...I have no way of telling...it's an energetic theory that makes sense to me and always fits. Though most people reject it because I take the "human" or emotions out of dogs and people don't like that. A magician admitting that they are susceptible to human psychological factors is, apparently, admitting to weakness...not just being human.

I also don't think that every single explanation one can come up with for something that happens or doesn't happen is cognitive dissonance...which is something you seem to imply in your response to the first item you quoted from me.

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Why Does Magick Seem to Work?

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Original post: Frater Manjet

"Laiad Holq Ta Napea...

Thank you IAO131 for stirring up this kettle. I admit I have not read through this thread fully, but I am just waking up. (Still on first cup of coffee)

I am a magickian and a psychology major. I appreciate the points addressed in the primary post.

I would like to make a side step in the discussion to point out another common and dangerous pitfall in 'magickal' circles, that of grandiosity (sp?). It strikes me that a natural tendency of CM practice/thought can lead to this snare. If the magickian is not cautious delusion will find its foothold.

IAO131 is not attacking anyone by discussing these very human tendencies. We should all, as magickians, be especially on gaurd against thinking errors. Fallicies do not stimulate true honest growth; they inhibit and stagnate it. Elimination of such thinking errors begins with understanding them, but ultimately they must be recognized within ourselves.

Magick does have a place in the contemporary world. It does have amazing potential for human development, but only if as magickians we are really able to truly examine and be conscious of our behaviours. How can we, as magickians, quest forth on this 'Magnum Opus' with eyes unwilling to examine ourselves thusly.

... my two copper for now.

I hope I have not rambled to much this morning.

VVV (210/3)
... Ds Praf Piap"




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Why Does Magick Seem to Work?

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Original post: Skeptismo118

Rolling things back a bit, which particular elements of magic are we talking about? Enchantment? Evocation? Invocation? Divination? Illumination?

Chances are there can be multiple explanitory models for each of these that will not necessarily cover the other aspects.

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Original post: IAO131
MagiAwen;375257 wrote: This is why it irks me that people get defensive when these discussions comes up. Ironic....for sure. If a magician is so insecure as to bristle hair at a ...well not simple...but yet simple psychological issue that has implications across all human cognitive perception then...what kind of magician...even what kind of person are they?
I don't know MagiAen, I just don't know... perhaps they can speak up for themselves?
I also don't think that every single explanation one can come up with for something that happens or doesn't happen is cognitive dissonance...which is something you seem to imply in your response to the first item you quoted from me.
If it seems that way I didnt mean it - cognitive dissonance is widespread for sure but does not apply or explain everything.
Frater Manjet;375274 wrote:"Laiad Holq Ta Napea...

Thank you IAO131 for stirring up this kettle. I admit I have not read through this thread fully, but I am just waking up. (Still on first cup of coffee)

I am a magickian and a psychology major. I appreciate the points addressed in the primary post.
It appears we share some common ground then - thanks for reading...
I would like to make a side step in the discussion to point out another common and dangerous pitfall in 'magickal' circles, that of grandiosity (sp?). It strikes me that a natural tendency of CM practice/thought can lead to this snare. If the magickian is not cautious delusion will find its foothold.
Mania? Delusions of grandeur?

IAO131 is not attacking anyone by discussing these very human tendencies. We should all, as magickians, be especially on gaurd against thinking errors. Fallicies do not stimulate true honest growth; they inhibit and stagnate it. Elimination of such thinking errors begins with understanding them, but ultimately they must be recognized within ourselves.

Magick does have a place in the contemporary world. It does have amazing potential for human development, but only if as magickians we are really able to truly examine and be conscious of our behaviours. How can we, as magickians, quest forth on this 'Magnum Opus' with eyes unwilling to examine


Very good points - thanks for helping to clarify.

Skeptismo118;375278 wrote:Rolling things back a bit, which particular elements of magic are we talking about? Enchantment? Evocation? Invocation? Divination? Illumination?

Chances are there can be multiple explanitory models for each of these that will not necessarily cover the other aspects.


I would say most things that require some kind of objective goal - Goetia usually, evocation in general, divination usually, etc. Subjective things are much harder to deal with because, for example, a hallucination of pain is still just as real as a pain from a 'real' source.

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Original post: Skeptismo118
IAO131;375342 wrote: I would say most things that require some kind of objective goal - Goetia usually, evocation in general, divination usually, etc. Subjective things are much harder to deal with because, for example, a hallucination of pain is still just as real as a pain from a 'real' source.

There is typically a goal, but that need not be objectively oriented.

A number of people do things like use divinatory systems to spot trends ot for insight into what they should be aware of. There are a number of potential explainations for the results of these, from selective perception to subjective empowerment of the symbolism leading to certain actions to the somewhat more dubious but not necessarily dismissable Jungian notions.

Evocation similarly is often informational in its exchange. This could be outlined as aspects of the psychological complex engaging in personification and infracommunication.

Invocation may be articulated as focused aspects of the psychological complex being empowered and given inner reality to such an extent that they overshadow the conventional self completely, as in situations of possession.

Illumination may be the subjective side of more objective transformation on neurological structure. The suggestive but inconclusive research into brainwave patterns among so-called realized masters of meditative traditions suggests something akin to this may be taking place.

Really the only one that has the onus on "Make shit happen" is enchantment.

And frankly, fucked if I know exactly how that works.

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