Original post: The Fool
I´ve been visiting Lisiewski´s website (http://www.8thmatrixpress.com/) and have also ordered his books from Amazon.
He promotes what he calls "Old Style Magic", which I suppose is following the old Grimoires to the letter.
He seems to be against all types of modern magic, which he refers to as "New Age" bullshit. Rituals such as the LBRP are viewed as insatisfactory. He is fond of the MP, though.
The results he describes from using his old style Magic are, to say the least, quite remarkable. His methods of evocation literally produce shaking of walls, screams and howls and floating images, culminating in the manifestation of the entity in tangible, physical form.
Here are a few excerpts from his website:
"Never mind that I was not only a member of the Argentum Astrum years ago, but that I was also a member of one of the schools of the Golden Dawn itself: in fact, it was the one co-founded by Regardie immediately prior to his death (I still have my original membership card.) These facts are very well known throughout the New Age community. Looking back on it now I am even less impressed with what that system of Magick teaches, and with the lack of tangible, real-world results those teachings produce, than I was when I was a member of these â??Orders.â?Â
Joseph Lisiewski and his Old Style Magic
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Joseph Lisiewski and his Old Style Magic
Original post: Tiro DvD
Seconded! He articulates very well some of my complaints concerning magic theory and the occult community. Of course there are some points I don't agree, e.g. Bardon's IHH is pretty decent for occult practices, but still there is a lot of gobblely-gook that goes around.
Also I thought the adage was "those who can't, teach."
Seconded! He articulates very well some of my complaints concerning magic theory and the occult community. Of course there are some points I don't agree, e.g. Bardon's IHH is pretty decent for occult practices, but still there is a lot of gobblely-gook that goes around.
Also I thought the adage was "those who can't, teach."
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Joseph Lisiewski and his Old Style Magic
Original post: frateruranus
As I try to say in my PM to you, I see what he is saying in that he associated the GD with the New AGe (creative visualization is NOT astral projection though)
but also that I believe he is wrong as much of his GD knowledge seems to come from the STella Matutina and the mistakes made by the various authors of the 20th Century in regards to mixing THelema and the GD. I do LOVE his comment on the HGA working and totally agree with him on that matter. More often individuals seem to mistake the VISION of the HGA as actual Knowledge and Conversation.
I've met a lot of people who have made the claim to the HGA working and only three of them do I find to have possibly have achieved this working. One key I think should be pointed out: attainment does not mean you become more compassionate and kindhearted... in fact, it requires the Reapers scythe many times.
As I try to say in my PM to you, I see what he is saying in that he associated the GD with the New AGe (creative visualization is NOT astral projection though)
but also that I believe he is wrong as much of his GD knowledge seems to come from the STella Matutina and the mistakes made by the various authors of the 20th Century in regards to mixing THelema and the GD. I do LOVE his comment on the HGA working and totally agree with him on that matter. More often individuals seem to mistake the VISION of the HGA as actual Knowledge and Conversation.
I've met a lot of people who have made the claim to the HGA working and only three of them do I find to have possibly have achieved this working. One key I think should be pointed out: attainment does not mean you become more compassionate and kindhearted... in fact, it requires the Reapers scythe many times.
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Joseph Lisiewski and his Old Style Magic
Original post: Fra. Vincit Veritas
But since Lisiewski is teaching (perhaps even preaching), he obviously has to reframe.
LVX
VV
You're right: that is indeed the adage.Tiro DvD;247292 wrote:Also I thought the adage was "those who can't, teach."
But since Lisiewski is teaching (perhaps even preaching), he obviously has to reframe.
LVX
VV
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Joseph Lisiewski and his Old Style Magic
Original post: ASh Abraxas
One thing I praise Lisiewski for is his ardent rejection of the psychological model of Magick so readily adopted by most modern Magicians. I can not agree with him more on this subject. Angels and Demons are NOT part of our subconscious; to subscribe to this belief is an inversion of spirituality that results in little more than introverted psychism. Such a belief has given birth to the plethora of New Age crap that is out for mass consumption, yes you do get results, but on a purely psychological level... I know some of you will disagree, but if you are evoking spirits to unlock parts of your mind and balance your subconscious world, put down your magical grimoire and seek a psychologist!
I am reminded of Rene Guenon, who masterfully wrote: "...it has been clear that the psychoanalytic offensive is gaining more and more ground, attacking tradition directly now under the pretext of explaining it, and thus distorting the very notion of tradition itself in the most dangerous way." Indeed, modernity has found itself relegating God's Kingdom to the subconscious human mind...WTF!!! We don't dream God, but rather God dreams us! This does not mean that divinity is solely external as it also exists within us, but that spark of divine light within us is only a tiny speck of the totality. The goal of the Magus should be to reunite the divine spark within with the external divine source; in other words, to embrace the totality of God's Kingdom and our place within it. Take this perspective in Magical workings and then you will truly know what it means to wield God's power and to command by His/Her/It's authority! In this, Lisiewski's "Old Style" system hits the bullseye.
I also like that Lisiewski works with Peter de Abano's Heptameron, which along with the Arbatel, I place as the best tomes grimoire magic has to offer. These grimoires clearly lay out the theology/theory behind magical operations that seems to be absent or obscured in many others. Not that other grimoires should be disregarded, but a good understanding of the principles in the Heptameron and Arbatel create the ideal foundation from which to approach the "darker" tomes such as the Lemegaton, Le Dragon Rouge, and others. Lisiewski's commentary and notes on the Heptameron operation and preparations in "Ceremonial Magic" are superb and should be read by anyone considering working with Peter de Abano's grimoire .
Now, with all that said, Lisiewski deserves less praise in other areas. In particular, his need to place PHD before his name and constantly legitimize his magical lineage irks me, as does his linking of material "evidence" to spiritual progress. There is also an underlying arrogance to his writing that seems to imply that his way is the only and original method. Following grimoires literally is definately a good manner to approach evocation magic, but we must keep in mind that grimoires were simply the notebooks and journals of practicing Magicians. Each Magus will pave their own way and in a sense write their own grimoires; it is preposterous to argue that there is only one path. Furthermore, as Lisiewski himself points out, the roots of modern ceremonial magic are in the Greek Magical Papyri, thus any authentic or original "Old Style Magic" is to be found amongst these texts and not in the later traditions of grimoire magic.
Anyway, all in all, I'd say that his teachings are far superior to the majority of recently published books on Magic.
One thing I praise Lisiewski for is his ardent rejection of the psychological model of Magick so readily adopted by most modern Magicians. I can not agree with him more on this subject. Angels and Demons are NOT part of our subconscious; to subscribe to this belief is an inversion of spirituality that results in little more than introverted psychism. Such a belief has given birth to the plethora of New Age crap that is out for mass consumption, yes you do get results, but on a purely psychological level... I know some of you will disagree, but if you are evoking spirits to unlock parts of your mind and balance your subconscious world, put down your magical grimoire and seek a psychologist!
I am reminded of Rene Guenon, who masterfully wrote: "...it has been clear that the psychoanalytic offensive is gaining more and more ground, attacking tradition directly now under the pretext of explaining it, and thus distorting the very notion of tradition itself in the most dangerous way." Indeed, modernity has found itself relegating God's Kingdom to the subconscious human mind...WTF!!! We don't dream God, but rather God dreams us! This does not mean that divinity is solely external as it also exists within us, but that spark of divine light within us is only a tiny speck of the totality. The goal of the Magus should be to reunite the divine spark within with the external divine source; in other words, to embrace the totality of God's Kingdom and our place within it. Take this perspective in Magical workings and then you will truly know what it means to wield God's power and to command by His/Her/It's authority! In this, Lisiewski's "Old Style" system hits the bullseye.
I also like that Lisiewski works with Peter de Abano's Heptameron, which along with the Arbatel, I place as the best tomes grimoire magic has to offer. These grimoires clearly lay out the theology/theory behind magical operations that seems to be absent or obscured in many others. Not that other grimoires should be disregarded, but a good understanding of the principles in the Heptameron and Arbatel create the ideal foundation from which to approach the "darker" tomes such as the Lemegaton, Le Dragon Rouge, and others. Lisiewski's commentary and notes on the Heptameron operation and preparations in "Ceremonial Magic" are superb and should be read by anyone considering working with Peter de Abano's grimoire .
Now, with all that said, Lisiewski deserves less praise in other areas. In particular, his need to place PHD before his name and constantly legitimize his magical lineage irks me, as does his linking of material "evidence" to spiritual progress. There is also an underlying arrogance to his writing that seems to imply that his way is the only and original method. Following grimoires literally is definately a good manner to approach evocation magic, but we must keep in mind that grimoires were simply the notebooks and journals of practicing Magicians. Each Magus will pave their own way and in a sense write their own grimoires; it is preposterous to argue that there is only one path. Furthermore, as Lisiewski himself points out, the roots of modern ceremonial magic are in the Greek Magical Papyri, thus any authentic or original "Old Style Magic" is to be found amongst these texts and not in the later traditions of grimoire magic.
Anyway, all in all, I'd say that his teachings are far superior to the majority of recently published books on Magic.
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Joseph Lisiewski and his Old Style Magic
Original post: mikewho
[QUOTE=ASh Abraxas;247506]One thing I praise Lisiewski for is his ardent rejection of the psychological model of Magick so readily adopted by most modern Magicians. I can not agree with him more on this subject. Angels and Demons are NOT part of our subconscious; to subscribe to this belief is an inversion of spirituality that results in little more than introverted psychism. Such a belief has given birth to the plethora of New Age crap that is out for mass consumption, yes you do get results, but on a purely psychological level... I know some of you will disagree, but if you are evoking spirits to unlock parts of your mind and balance your subconscious world, put down your magical grimoire and seek a psychologist!
I am reminded of Rene Guenon, who masterfully wrote: "...it has been clear that the psychoanalytic offensive is gaining more and more ground, attacking tradition directly now under the pretext of explaining it, and thus distorting the very notion of tradition itself in the most dangerous way." Indeed, modernity has found itself relegating God's Kingdom to the subconscious human mind...WTF!!! We don't dream God, but rather God dreams us! This does not mean that divinity is solely external as it also exists within us, but that spark of divine light within us is only a tiny speck of the totality. The goal of the Magus should be to reunite the divine spark within with the external divine source; in other words, to embrace the totality of God's Kingdom and our place within it. Take this perspective in Magical workings and then you will truly know what it means to wield God's power and to command by His/Her/It's authority! In this, Lisiewski's "Old Style" system hits the bullseye.
I also like that Lisiewski works with Peter de Abano's Heptameron, which along with the Arbatel, I place as the best tomes grimoire magic has to offer. These grimoires clearly lay out the theology/theory behind magical operations that seems to be absent or obscured in many others. Not that other grimoires should be disregarded, but a good understanding of the principles in the Heptameron and Arbatel create the ideal foundation from which to approach the "darker" tomes such as the Lemegaton, Le Dragon Rouge, and others. Lisiewski's commentary and notes on the Heptameron operation and preparations in "Ceremonial Magic" are superb and should be read by anyone considering working with Peter de Abano's grimoire .
Now, with all that said, Lisiewski deserves less praise in other areas. In particular, his need to place PHD before his name and constantly legitimize his magical lineage irks me, as does his linking of material "evidence" to spiritual progress. There is also an underlying arrogance to his writing that seems to imply that his way is the only and original method. Following grimoires literally is definately a good manner to approach evocation magic, but we must keep in mind that grimoires were simply the notebooks and journals of practicing Magicians. Each Magus will pave their own way and in a sense write their own grimoires; it is preposterous to argue that there is only one path. Furthermore, as Lisiewski himself points out, the roots of modern ceremonial magic are in the Greek Magical Papyri, thus any authentic or original "Old Style Magic" is to be found amongst these texts and not in the later traditions of grimoire magic.
Anyway, all in all, I'd say that his teachings are far superior to the majority of recently published books on Magic.[/QUOTE]
I cannot agree with you more. I also find that lisiewske is a bit more to the point as where the majority of modern magicians are on this dream faze of "imagination" and "visualization." dont get me wrong, these are excellent traits. However, New Age thought has contamminated the mind of new study'ers, everyone believes that everything spoken of in old texts is metaphorical.
I believe that New Age belief is rooted in lack of faith and discipline. This is why they have to imagine their results. As was said before, go see a psychologist. Find Out How You Can Use Magic To Change Your Life Today, For Money, Luck, and Success.
..im going to add to this later, my time on the computer is spent...libraries.
[QUOTE=ASh Abraxas;247506]One thing I praise Lisiewski for is his ardent rejection of the psychological model of Magick so readily adopted by most modern Magicians. I can not agree with him more on this subject. Angels and Demons are NOT part of our subconscious; to subscribe to this belief is an inversion of spirituality that results in little more than introverted psychism. Such a belief has given birth to the plethora of New Age crap that is out for mass consumption, yes you do get results, but on a purely psychological level... I know some of you will disagree, but if you are evoking spirits to unlock parts of your mind and balance your subconscious world, put down your magical grimoire and seek a psychologist!
I am reminded of Rene Guenon, who masterfully wrote: "...it has been clear that the psychoanalytic offensive is gaining more and more ground, attacking tradition directly now under the pretext of explaining it, and thus distorting the very notion of tradition itself in the most dangerous way." Indeed, modernity has found itself relegating God's Kingdom to the subconscious human mind...WTF!!! We don't dream God, but rather God dreams us! This does not mean that divinity is solely external as it also exists within us, but that spark of divine light within us is only a tiny speck of the totality. The goal of the Magus should be to reunite the divine spark within with the external divine source; in other words, to embrace the totality of God's Kingdom and our place within it. Take this perspective in Magical workings and then you will truly know what it means to wield God's power and to command by His/Her/It's authority! In this, Lisiewski's "Old Style" system hits the bullseye.
I also like that Lisiewski works with Peter de Abano's Heptameron, which along with the Arbatel, I place as the best tomes grimoire magic has to offer. These grimoires clearly lay out the theology/theory behind magical operations that seems to be absent or obscured in many others. Not that other grimoires should be disregarded, but a good understanding of the principles in the Heptameron and Arbatel create the ideal foundation from which to approach the "darker" tomes such as the Lemegaton, Le Dragon Rouge, and others. Lisiewski's commentary and notes on the Heptameron operation and preparations in "Ceremonial Magic" are superb and should be read by anyone considering working with Peter de Abano's grimoire .
Now, with all that said, Lisiewski deserves less praise in other areas. In particular, his need to place PHD before his name and constantly legitimize his magical lineage irks me, as does his linking of material "evidence" to spiritual progress. There is also an underlying arrogance to his writing that seems to imply that his way is the only and original method. Following grimoires literally is definately a good manner to approach evocation magic, but we must keep in mind that grimoires were simply the notebooks and journals of practicing Magicians. Each Magus will pave their own way and in a sense write their own grimoires; it is preposterous to argue that there is only one path. Furthermore, as Lisiewski himself points out, the roots of modern ceremonial magic are in the Greek Magical Papyri, thus any authentic or original "Old Style Magic" is to be found amongst these texts and not in the later traditions of grimoire magic.
Anyway, all in all, I'd say that his teachings are far superior to the majority of recently published books on Magic.[/QUOTE]
I cannot agree with you more. I also find that lisiewske is a bit more to the point as where the majority of modern magicians are on this dream faze of "imagination" and "visualization." dont get me wrong, these are excellent traits. However, New Age thought has contamminated the mind of new study'ers, everyone believes that everything spoken of in old texts is metaphorical.
I believe that New Age belief is rooted in lack of faith and discipline. This is why they have to imagine their results. As was said before, go see a psychologist. Find Out How You Can Use Magic To Change Your Life Today, For Money, Luck, and Success.
..im going to add to this later, my time on the computer is spent...libraries.
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Joseph Lisiewski and his Old Style Magic
Original post: frateruranus
I think Lisiewski is the troll that posts here every now and then about how we don't know anything truly about magick etc. if any of you remember that guy.
One thing I do hate about the new practitioners is the way that Wiccan thought has infiltrated ceremonial magick. Concepts like the Threefold Law etc. all of a sudden start cropping up in conversation (and even now in some ceremonial magick texts) when it is based in a misunderstanding of what Karma is and does. KArma isn't that what you do comes back on you, it is what you take with you in life. If the 3 fold law and Karma were true then you get into why do bad things happen to good people and obtuse and unverifiable concepts about previous lives etc.
I think Lisiewski is the troll that posts here every now and then about how we don't know anything truly about magick etc. if any of you remember that guy.
One thing I do hate about the new practitioners is the way that Wiccan thought has infiltrated ceremonial magick. Concepts like the Threefold Law etc. all of a sudden start cropping up in conversation (and even now in some ceremonial magick texts) when it is based in a misunderstanding of what Karma is and does. KArma isn't that what you do comes back on you, it is what you take with you in life. If the 3 fold law and Karma were true then you get into why do bad things happen to good people and obtuse and unverifiable concepts about previous lives etc.
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Joseph Lisiewski and his Old Style Magic
Original post: Rokkyu
I just found this thread and I'm wondering if anyone has tried these methods and gotten results on par with what is claimed?
I've not read anything from this author but i'm curious as to what mental and spiritual training or preportation is needed in addition to following the mechanical practices of the traditional grimores?
I just found this thread and I'm wondering if anyone has tried these methods and gotten results on par with what is claimed?
I've not read anything from this author but i'm curious as to what mental and spiritual training or preportation is needed in addition to following the mechanical practices of the traditional grimores?
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Joseph Lisiewski and his Old Style Magic
Original post: The Fool
Hello, Rokkyu!
I´ll tackle the Heptameron the old fashioned way, as described in Lisiewski´s "Ceremonial Magic".
I only have to wait for the book to arrive from Amazon.com (I live in Brazil and they haven´t sent it yet).
If you´re interested, I´ll keep you posted.
Hello, Rokkyu!
I´ll tackle the Heptameron the old fashioned way, as described in Lisiewski´s "Ceremonial Magic".
I only have to wait for the book to arrive from Amazon.com (I live in Brazil and they haven´t sent it yet).
If you´re interested, I´ll keep you posted.
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Joseph Lisiewski and his Old Style Magic
Original post: Rokkyu
Thank you.
I'd be interested to hear about you impressions and result.
Thank you.
I'd be interested to hear about you impressions and result.
Joseph Lisiewski and his Old Style Magic
There is no "training" in Western Ceremonial Magic. Preparation to work with grimoires is mainly about prayer and study and also three months initition ritual.I've not read anything from this author but i'm curious as to what mental and spiritual training or preportation is needed in addition to following the mechanical practices of the traditional grimores?