Sun of God?

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Original post: Bone_Dancer

"Thanks to Acharya S for the use of her material. Acharya S is a scholar classically educated in archaeology, history, mythology and languages. Acharya specializes in religion and mythology, critiquing and comparing them, and providing unique insights into their origins. Although born into a Christian (Congregationalist Protestant) family, Acharya does not subscribe to any particular religion, nor is she a hardcore "atheist." Acharya is the author of the controversial books The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold and Suns of God: Krishna, Buddha and Christ Unveiled. She is also the author of the number 1 ranked article on the net on the "Origins of Christianity." Among other less flattering things, Acharya S has been called "the ranking religious philosopher of our era" and "the voice of reason amidst global chaos." Her web site contains a wealth of information about: religion spirituality mythology archaeology history... "

You Tube Link

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Original post: Nawali

Hi,

I found the video to be very, very refutable. It seems that Acharya S is just making some easy money with her poor (or tendentious) investigationâ?¦

This is a fact: Jesus was not born on 25th of December, moreover some orthodox churches still celebrates Christmas on 6th January. The fact is that nobody knows when Jesus was born. Of course, there is some pagan influence in the election of the 25th of december but this influence was merely social (not theological).

Also, Christ did not resurrect on 25th December. That happens in Easter! Easter is the most important celebration of Christianism: The death and resurrection of Christ. This celebration is related to a Jews celebration (Pesaj) and it date is based on a lunar calendarâ?¦

We can compare Christ with every God of every religion and obviously we will find a lot of coincidences; but this is because the general attributes that every god must have.

A final word: We can make really interesting comparisons between religions, but we must be objectives. For example: Saying that Buddha was like Jesus (or that Nirvana is the same than Heaven) has no sense.


Best regards,
Nawali

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Original post: Scarlett_156

[QUOTE=Nawali;290653]We can compare Christ with every God of every religion and obviously we will find a lot of coincidences; but this is because the general attributes that every god must have.

A final word: We can make really interesting comparisons between religions, but we must be objectives.[/QUOTE]

Ah, the voice of reason!

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Original post: Bone_Dancer

In my experience with Christians I can say I do not know of any that celebrate the birth of the Christ on January 6th. Furthermore, there is no credible non-Biblical evidence that supports there even was a Jesus of Nazareth. What is especially interesting is that Nazareth did not even exist during that period of the 1st Century.

Josephus is often cited as having accounted the miracles of Jesus, but credible Scholars in the field have discounted his "writings" since as early as the 16th and 17th centuries because it was discovered that Christian copyists had inserted the stories of Jesus into Josephus writings after his death so as to use his credibility as a Jewish scholar to perpetrate the fraud of an accurate historic recording of Jesus.

Not to mention all the prior savior gods that the Jesus myth mimics. From the virgin birth, miracles, execution and resurrection. Jesus is not an original.

Also, I know nothing of the reputation of Acharya S. However I would dare say this YouTube video is but one account of what has been observed by others regarding the correlation between the mythos related to the "sun" of God. The Original Sun of God

Excerpt:
The history of sun worship, so seemingly foreign to the Western mind has, in fact, manifested itself into Christianity in many ways as the story of Jesus in the Gospels. So little was known about the life of Jesus, any and all writing styles from Midrash (searching past scriptures for "hints" of how they might apply to the present) to discerning the story of the Zodiac and it's constellations were used to fill in what was clearly missing in the literal record.
Consider our "modern" terms, Horizon and Sun Set. These terms belie their ancient history. Horus-sun (Horizon) was sunrise as Horus was the Egyptian god of light and the day light portion of the 24 hour cycle. Set, was the god of darkness and night. He came on the scene at "Sun Set" and is the Jackal headed god of the Egyptian underworld. When we say "what a beautiful Sun Set," we don't realize we are speaking as one might in ancient Egypt. Darkness was the time of Set, god of darkness. Night time was not a good time in most ancient mythologies. This is why many a priest stood every morning acting as if by incantation and arm waving, he could bring back the Sun/Son from the Underworld of darkness and fear. The sun descending into hell is something it did every Sun-Set. There was relief every morning when the sun/son was reborn. ( Continues @ Link)

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Original post: simex

I hate to fan the flames of the Historicity of Jesus debate. But really, there's more historical evidence of dragons than there is Jesus. There are Roman accounts of dragon encounters-- any creation 'scientist' will be happy to corroborate, because they think it means the dinosaurs existed within the biblical scope of time. So, let's see...

Dragons
- First hand accounts by witnesses

Jesus
- Not so much

And I don't believe in dragons.

Now, a lack of evidence is not evidence, but if you're going to be at all pragmatic about this, you can't really believe Jesus was real unless you also believe dragons were real.

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Original post: Bone_Dancer

Given the Bible is a closed cannon, one must consider the errancy throughout to make incredible any claims of a historic Messiah. Besides the dragons, one must consider all the references to unicorns.

Job 39:9-10, Deuteronomy 33:17, Numbers 23:22 and 24:8; Psalm 22:21, 29:6 and 92:10;and Isaiah 34:7

Not only that, but references in this "word of god" to giants, wizards and illnesses caused by demons. (Derived from Daemons, from the Greek meaning, "Intelligent")

Then, when Sherri Shepherd, of "The View" came under fire for claiming she believed the Earth could be flat, she was speaking from a Biblical Fundamentalist Christian point of view. For the Bible claims not only is the Earth flat, but it sits upon pillars and the sky is actually a dome from which the sun, moon and stars are suspended. All of which will fall to the ground at the end of days. And if one stands on the highest peak, say Everest or K2, they can see all the nations of the world. And not only that, it is possible to build a tower and reach Heaven.

Ergo, I would imagine the "sun" god of myth has a greater credible history relative to astrology, etc.... than does the mythic composite of Jesus, who holds to similar aspects of such lore not to mention his being copied from far earlier pagan saviors, by itself , when some claim the sun of god is not relevant, as he is defined by such a tome as that which was canonized by mortal men who claimed it true they compiled what was to be accepted as the official "Version" of the whole of the inspired words of a god.

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Original post: Kath_

you know, you'd be good at converting christians Bone Dancer.

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Original post: Bone_Dancer

But to what!? That is the question. :p

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Original post: Kath_

yeah, i ran into that problem, some of them just kinda followed me around for a while expecting me to heal people and make a new religion for them
I'm like "no no, show's over, go forth and think rationally now..."

Some of them I think were better off for it. some however, seemed... to kinda fall apart without their paradigm holding them together. LIke there wasn't that much there to begin with, so if you remove the falsehoods, there's just nothing left.

we should start a new religion, specifically tailored to helping rehabilitate people who are recovering from any of the major world religions :p have like a 12 step program to break the dogma habit...

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Original post: Bone_Dancer

Amazingly enough someone beat us to it. Twelve steps to recovery for Christians. You can do it!

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Original post: Nawali

Not to mention all the prior savior gods that the Jesus myth mimics. From the virgin birth, miracles, execution and resurrection. Jesus is not an original.

Do you have any serious example of this?

Consider our "modern" terms, Horizon and Sun Set. These terms belie their ancient history. Horus-sun (Horizon) was sunrise as Horus was the Egyptian god of light and the day light portion of the 24 hour cycle.

...

Set, was the god of darkness and night. He came on the scene at "Sun Set" and is the Jackal headed god of the Egyptian underworld.

Egyptians gods change a lot through centuries, and honestly I never read about this position. Soâ?¦ Which cult is the author referring to (Stellar Cult, Solar Cult, Osirian Cult)?

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Original post: Bone_Dancer

Do you have any serious example of this?

Perhaps this will suffice.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa.htm

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Original post: Nawali

[QUOTE=Bone_Dancer;291250]Perhaps this will suffice.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa.htm[/QUOTE]

It doesn't. I asked for a serious example... ::D

It's impossible to make a superficial comparison of Christ with Horus. The problem is that Horus was literally many gods; the Egyptians grouped all the falcon-head Gods under Horus, and also the gods hasnâ??t the same role in the different egyptian eras or cultsâ?¦

Also, some people is saying strange things about Horus; things that I could not found in any serious reference about Egyptian religion.

As a side note: I'am not christian...


Regards,
Nawali

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Original post: The Cove

Greetings -

I am only posting to mention an author -

Joseph Campbell

A link: http://www.jcf.org/index2.php

He is 'The Man' of Comparative Mythology.

You want learn about this stuff - he is where you should go.

In my opinion.

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Original post: Kath_

12 steps, well lookie there.


In ancient Egyptian Mythology the God Horus walked on water, and in ancient Greek Mythology the giant hunter and son of the gods Orion walked on water. Hindu, Buddhist, and Greek traditions have stories about characters walking on water.

Osiris rose from the dead on the 3rd day, so did Adonis, so did Mithras... Sun-Day or day of the sun god, incidentally is mithraist in origin.

The Greco-Roman cult of Dionysius had their God, born of the virgin, Semele, being torn to pieces by the Titans. He was then resurrected by his mother. In commemorating his sacrificial death, the devotees ate bread and wine to represent his body and blood.

oh and budhism... Siddhārtha came along about 500 years before jesus, and said many of the same things "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" vs. "don't do unto others as you would have them not do to unto you" and many many others. And its not like these cultures had not mingled, Alexander saw to that.

How to turn water into wine to shock and amaze your guests, and other fun first century party games :

The amphora of Heron of Alexandria (fl. AD 62), the mathematician and inventor called 'o mechanikós', allows to pour either water or wine from the same vessel.

The amphora is divided into two compartments by a vertical partition wall, while an opening leads the liquid from each compartment to a common spout at the foot. Inside the neck there is a round wall with small holes, like a sieve; and, at the top of each half, air holes have been made near the handles.

If when the spout at the bottom is shut, wine is poured into the neck of the amphora, it can only fill the half whose air hole is open. Later the other half may be filled with water, using the same procedure.

When the neck has been closed, either water or wine can be poured from the same spout, if the right air hole is obstructed with a finger.

ad infinitum
It's not hard to see christ, as a figurative character probably based on a living person, ending up as a sort of catch-all for a variety of popular middle eastern myths, superstitions, and parables.
"hey those greeks said their guy walked on water"
"really? we'd better make our guy walk on water too.."

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Original post: simex

http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/mbh/index.htm
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/cv/wscs/index.htm

I realise these are old, and new discoveries have been made in the last 100 years, as well as changes in perception, but the conclusion is still the same.

Jesus was one of many heroes/deities, many of which share similar characteristics. If you're looking for one figure who was exactly the same as Jesus (e.g. Horus/Osiris/Dionysus) you won't find it. What you will find, however, is that many of the novel ideas associated with Jesus, appeared in other stories.

Have you ever heard the saying that there's only 20 sitcom plots? There's more than 20 sitcom plots, but people who write them acknowledge that they all draw from each other, and from the classic archetypes. Mythology is no different. In a time when there were no sci-fi movies, or video games, even books, it was difficult for people to conceptualize things outside of the day-to-day. That's how fiction and art come to be, ideas are borne of other ideas.

When coming up with the fantastical repertoire of Jesus, it should come as no surprise that Paul and friends co-opted things from Egyptian myth, and other places. After all, the Egyptian gods were quite popular with the greeks. That doesn't necessarily mean Jesus wasn't real, but since he is painted from this existing pallet of ideas, it stands to reason that it is at least hyperbole.

I mean, the Old testament co-opts from Sumerian myth, surely you don't deny that?

Kath: Where have you heard of Osiris being directly ressurected? In the version of the myth I'm familiar with, he is killed, but then horus is miraculously born and considered to be the ressurection of Osiris. But yeah, there are lots of versions of the egyptian myths, so I don't doubt the existence of that version.

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Original post: simex

Oh! and...


Kath: to further prove your point. The constellation "Orion" was also associated with Horus by the Egyptians. I'm not totally sure of that, I'm fighting the temptation to break out my Erman books at work (yes they're in my backpack! heheheheh) but I'll double check when I get home. If it's not Horus, it's Osiris, either way...

The point is, all myth and religion draw from each other in this convoluted way, and that is a direct result of memetics and cultures smashing together.

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Original post: simex

I swear I'm not trying to up my post count...

Wikipedia says the constellation Orion was associated with Osiris, but also led me to another juicy tid bit: Orion was known to the Babylonians as "The Shepard of Anu". I think you're on to something Kath!

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Original post: Bone_Dancer

It doesn't. I asked for a serious example... ::D

Regards,
Nawali

Well, perhaps you can tell us what your definition of serious is.

I find this site to sum up the Greek, Egyptian and other savior gods that precede the myth of Christ.

Also the Religious Tolerance link I posted earlier speaks to more than just the Horus figure that helped contribute to the creation of the Christians Christ. Krishna, being just one example.

Also, when one considers the myth of the Christians savior I think it important to remember the gospels that speak of this figure were written decades after his alleged crucifixion by Roman authorities. And to date, there is no record in the ancient Roman archives that speaks to the execution of this one of many messiahs to enter the region.

When Paul compiled the myth of Jesus Rome was the hub of all things Pagan. Being a polytheistic faith themselves, the Romans were quite tolerant of others who practiced their faith given they ruled most of the known world . Therefore the powers that be in Rome, the Caesars and the Senate realized it was easier to keep peace through tolerance, than it was to be intolerant.
So when the Christ myth was born it was born from far earlier sources, which is why many of the Pagans in the region saw no difference between this new son of god and any other that had come before. There was nothing unique about the virgin birth, miracles, persecution or resurrection either.

In fact, as Kath mentioned, turning water into wine was a trick known and practiced long before Jesus was said to have performed this feat during the wedding feast at Canna , as related in John 2:1-11. Even contemporary Chemistry provides a how-to. Link

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Original post: winged one

Well, perhaps you can tell us what your definition of serious is.

I find this site to sum up the Greek, Egyptian and other savior gods that precede the myth of Christ.

Also the Religious Tolerance link I posted earlier speaks to more than just the Horus figure that helped contribute to the creation of the Christians Christ. Krishna, being just one example.

Also, when one considers the myth of the Christians savior I think it important to remember the gospels that speak of this figure were written decades after his alleged crucifixion by Roman authorities. And to date, there is no record in the ancient Roman archives that speaks to the execution of this one of many messiahs to enter the region.

When Paul compiled the myth of Jesus Rome was the hub of all things Pagan. Being a polytheistic faith themselves, the Romans were quite tolerant of others who practiced their faith given they ruled most of the known world . Therefore the powers that be in Rome, the Caesars and the Senate realized it was easier to keep peace through tolerance, than it was to be intolerant.
So when the Christ myth was born it was born from far earlier sources, which is why many of the Pagans in the region saw no difference between this new son of god and any other that had come before. There was nothing unique about the virgin birth, miracles, persecution or resurrection either.

In fact, as Kath mentioned, turning water into wine was a trick known and practiced long before Jesus was said to have performed this feat during the wedding feast at Canna , as related in John 2:1-11. Even contemporary Chemistry provides a how-to. Link

First of all. Let me say that video reminded me of the movie 23 and has about just as much importance with it's connections as the number 23 does. Interesting concept and ties at best. Some sort of huge hidden truth or consipracy? No. I will not argue that the christ myth and a good deal of the preceding Jewish mythology are borrowed and influenced from different sources...the christ myth specifically having links to Zorasterism. However. That doesn't mean that Jesus didn't actually exist. I'd say I'd take the word of well known non-biased scholars vs people stretching to make links regardless of their background.

Actually they do have a theory as to when the historical christ was born due to the presence of the shepards..blah blah...can't remember but it definitely wasn't december. and we all know that time of the year was coopted by the Church much much later to cover either the pagan solstice or the festival of lights celebration. That december 25 thing isn't part of the original mythos at all. Actually romans were non-tolerant of other religions except for the Jews. They were pretty much the only people who got to keep their gods. Later christians were persecuted because they refused to acknowledge the roman gods and the emporor as god. This was the roman equivelent of being a traitor. We execute traitors today in the United States. Er...my point on this was that rome wasn't very tolerant of other religions. I always thought that too until I read a bunch of history on it. The roman empire was also incredibly racist and non-tolerant. If you were of different country of origin or race or religious background there was much conflict hate and mistreatment between you. Also all relgions (different gods and cults that were allowed and approved by the government) cost money to be a part of. The using of slaves during orgies was common, leaving babies out to die by exposure was common, and the treatment of women and slaves wasn't great.

So even though Christianity has mythos that comes from and is similiar to other religions here's what was completely different about it and yes original from any other relgion of the time or hundreds of years before it. Equality. Slaves and free , people of different races, and to a certain degree women and men lived equally. Christian communities gave up their money to communal living. What was one person's was all. They believed in the sanctity of life. (Prob a leftover from Jewish belief where killing babies was sin because they wanted as many as possible). In the beginning most converts were slaves, the poor and women. These traits of early christianity were not common, they did not exist else where from some handed down relgion, they were pretty unique to christianity. It's just too bad after about 75 odd years later a bunch of men got a hold of it and ordered into a heirarachy and made sure it was about what the power could do for them.


FYI...Tales of the trojan war...which were written like some 400 years after they were supposed to take place were thought to be completely fictional until they found troy. This doesn't mean the accounts of the gods and goddess interfering and achilles being truely invulnerable except for his heel are proved because of that..but it's likely these were people that actually existed. And I think the comparison between the likelyhood of dragons and the existence of christ are kind of silly. I'd have to reread all the stuff I read cause frankly I can't remember everyting but I'm pretty sure there are roman writings of jesus. In any case usually the simpler explaination is the truer one. Makes more sense there was an actual historical jesus then it does there was some huge consipiracy to make him up. Heck I'd say the davinci code is more likely to be true the the non-existence of jesus as a historical and political person.

I will argue up and down about the historical inaccuracies, different relgious mythos influences, amount of stuff inserted later into the bible, and the fact that half the literature concerning jesus and christianity was left out. But trying to prove Jesus wasn't there? What is that called where you know something is there because of the influence it has on the things around it?

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Original post: winged one

By the way...my point was that with what we irrefutably know.....

One..the bible is not infallible (it's pretty easy to determine from early version how much has been changed (i.e. mis copied) , plus they can also tell through analysis what was added later)

Two...the historical account of jesus according to christian writings has inconsistencies with actual historical data (doesn't prove he doesn't exist, just proves that all those christians out there saying the bible is 100% accurate are nuts.

Three..the cultural influences of other cultures on the jewish mythos and also how much of the old testament is historically inaccurate

Four... How original christianity didn't believe in the divinity of jesus. This was added later and all writings to the contrary were eventually kicked out of cannon or burned

We can refute christianity as it is today without having to strain to prove jesus didn't exist. We already delegitimized it with history, science, cultural anthropology and whatnot. Why bother to reach.?

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Original post: Bone_Dancer

By the way...my point was that with what we irrefutably know.....

One..the bible is not infallible (it's pretty easy to determine from early version how much has been changed (i.e. mis copied) , plus they can also tell through analysis what was added later)

Two...the historical account of jesus according to christian writings has inconsistencies with actual historical data (doesn't prove he doesn't exist, just proves that all those christians out there saying the bible is 100% accurate are nuts.

Three..the cultural influences of other cultures on the jewish mythos and also how much of the old testament is historically inaccurate

Four... How original christianity didn't believe in the divinity of jesus. This was added later and all writings to the contrary were eventually kicked out of cannon or burned

We can refute christianity as it is today without having to strain to prove jesus didn't exist. We already delegitimized it with history, science, cultural anthropology and whatnot. Why bother to reach.?

Why bother to reach. I think it's a dismissive question, when the myth of a fictionurlal Christ has enabled denominations faithful to it to be the most populace believer sects on Earth.
And many Christians today are not aware their Bible is a closed canon, nor are they aware of how that came to pass. Many are of the belief one does not question god and as such , by proxy, one does not question how gods faith came to be.


I think when billions of people believe in a savior that has caused the history to be born as it was in the name of that faith, it's important to scrutinize the legitimacy of those origins.

And while there is no historical non-Biblical evidence for the existence of Jesus, there was a Yeshua Ben Pantera that did exist about a century before.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


[URL="http://jesusdynasty.com/blog/2006/07/13 ... traditions"]The â??Jesus son of Pantheraâ?Â

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Original post: Kath_

here's what was completely different about it and yes original from any other relgion of the time or hundreds of years before it. Equality. Slaves and free , people of different races, and to a certain degree women and men lived equally. Christian communities gave up their money to communal living. What was one person's was all.

actually that's not original. if anything, thats the oldest system in existence, rather thoroughly replaced by monetary systems around 8000 years ago. it keeps cropping back up though, in small pockets. there were 'commune' sects in *many* locations and religious sects throughout the middle east, prior to and after christianity. Most of them were limited to a single location however.

They believed in the sanctity of life. (Prob a leftover from Jewish belief where killing babies was sin because they wanted as many as possible).

again, not original. anywhere where there is a high infant mortality rate, people tend to place greater value on their infants. and where there is overpopulation people tend to be less pro-life.

In the beginning most converts were slaves, the poor and women. These traits of early christianity were not common, they did not exist else where from some handed down relgion, they were pretty unique to christianity.

that's not true at all, there are many MANY religious sects which catered to women specifically, and quite a few which were favored by the poor because of a de-emphasis on worldly goods. Neither of these is remotely original to christianity.


anyway, I think Jesus was an actual person. I think he was probably pretty cool too. I think that he became deified after his death (as was popular in that region at that time, nearly every roman emporer was deified after death for a while there). And then a sort of cult based on him started up, gained in popularity, addapted content from many other sources, grew, etc. and probably would not have really 'made it' as a religion if not for Constantine (who was a worshiper of Helios incidently). Constantine took christianity and rebuilt it as a vehicle for his concept of monotheism, incorperating a wide variety of content from all over the roman empire. And compiling the 'bible' from many diverse religious texts, some of it was actually probably written by order of constatine to tie the pieces together. and then making it the official religion of rome, the 'holy roman empire', the 'roman catholic church'... "catholic" incidently, is latin for 'universal'. the "roman universal church" is a better, and more descript translation I think. and kinda points to its multi-origin building blocks.

Its a decent religion really. Not as enlightened as some paths from further east in my opinion, but of the 3 main world monotheisms, it seems to be the least messed up. probably because of this early 'eclectic attitude' in its beginings. monotheism's biggest weakness is its lack of recognition of alternative ideas. Of course its eclecticism has been on a downward slope for about 1100 years now. If not for the scientific renaissance, introducing inovative thought and challenging the christian west to question and think, christianity would probably have colapsed in on itself from its xenophobia of ideas.

Kath

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Original post: Dr. Pepper

[QUOTE=Bone_Dancer].For the Bible claims not only is the Earth flat, but it sits upon pillars and the sky is actually a dome from which the sun, moon and stars are suspended. All of which will fall to the ground at the end of days. And if one stands on the highest peak, say Everest or K2, they can see all the nations of the world. And not only that, it is possible to build a tower and reach Heaven. etc etc etc[/QUOTE]
You don't believe the sky being supported by four pillars to be symbolic? That the story of Jesus is symbolic? The Bible is packed with many Greater Mysteries, just look at how dense Revealation is in terms of it's occult symbology.

Here I was thinking this was a forum for occultists.

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Original post: Dunhill

Then, when Sherri Shepherd, of "The View" came under fire for claiming she believed the Earth could be flat, she was speaking from a Biblical Fundamentalist Christian point of view. For the Bible claims not only is the Earth flat, but it sits upon pillars and the sky is actually a dome from which the sun, moon and stars are suspended. All of which will fall to the ground at the end of days. And if one stands on the highest peak, say Everest or K2, they can see all the nations of the world. And not only that, it is possible to build a tower and reach Heaven.

This is just too funny really. So are stories of the earth riding on the back of a tortise any more plausible? What about Atlas holding the whole thing up on his shoulders.

So there is only some debatable evidence regarding the historical Jesus outside the NT.

So what you are really saying is that there is just as much evidence of JC's existence as there is of Odin, Zeus, Satan, Lucifer, Ahura Mazda, the Asartu, Shiva, Marduk, etc. ?