Something I'd never considered

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: lioncastle

I'd like some feedback on this one as i am genuinely puzzled here.

What do you think would happen if an individual were to pray and offer to a diety, asking them to wreak annihilation and suffering on another - and the person who was targeted already has a longstanding and deep relationship with the deity?

Now trust me, I have NEVER asked my deities (I have seven shrines atm and a whole room dedicated to Isis) to go after someone and harm them. Nor would I use them that way, nor would I pretend I was just issuing some lesson or other (I lack the arrogance to think I have the right to impose my desires on another like that, even when i can see how badly someone may need to learn, I am just humble enough to stay working on my own stuff, you know? ). I HAVE asked for and recieved much, much protection. But if someone were to attempt to harm another person using a deity that the intended victim has longserved -what do you think happens next?

I've never really thought about this because I don't engage in any sort of cursing, and if I ever DID require assistance magically I wouldn't use a diety to do my dirtywork. (I think they have intervened, sometimes in amusing ways, but I don't ask them to. I pray for the same things we all want - protection, happiness, wisdom, my loved ones, I feel it's inappropriate to ask even my more warriorlike patrons to go hurt another person for me.)

Do any of you ask your patrons to exact vengeance or otherwsie harm someone? What do you think happens if that person already has a strong relationship with the same deity? What does this all suggest about the nature of the gods, anyway?
lc

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Draginvry

You shouldn't ask entities to harm their chosen charges. Ideally you shouldn't ask entities to harm anyone in the first place. If you want it done right, you've got to do it yourself. Or preferably, not at all. Third parties are for people who don't want to get their hands dirty.

If the entity is truly powerful enough to be considered a deity, they will probably just ignore you. Unless they are vengeful/spiteful, in which case you honestly deserve what you've asked for. It's generally not a good idea to seek out all-powerfull entities to do your whimsical bidding, if you don't know anything about them.

If I was all-powerful and you wanted me to hurt someone, I'd just throw a pie in your face in laugh. But maybe that's just me.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: lioncastle

You shouldn't ask entities to harm their chosen charges. Ideally you shouldn't ask entities to harm anyone in the first place. If you want it done right, you've got to do it yourself. Or preferably, not at all.

I'm well aware of this, and as mentioned above, I would never do it. I consider the multiple attacks I've withstood to be opportunities to learn and grow, to strengthen my shielding, to deepen my practise, not cheapen it by engaging back . And as you said, if one *must* engage, it's inapprorpiate to enlist a deity.
My question was, say an individual DID use a diety. for example; I have had a shrine to Oshun for over 20 years. I send money to Africa and make regular contributions to foodbanks in Her name, I have offered flowers coffee, rum, honey etc daily for all this time and I have introduced Oshun to a woman who became a priest, does a huge amount of charity work, and recently published a book on the orishas. I feel deeply connected to all the orisas but especially Oshun. Now let's say someone tries to harm me by petitioning Oshun. Wouldnt that be most likely to backfire on them? (NOTE: this is not a real example, as far as I know anyway, just used for discussion)

If the entity is truly powerful enough to be considered a deity, they will probably just ignore you. Unless they are vengeful/spiteful, in which case you honestly deserve what you've asked for.

I certainly agree with you here.

If I was all-powerful and you wanted me to hurt someone, I'd just throw a pie in your face in laugh. But maybe that's just me.

So perhaps what one could expect is, if an individual WERE to (try) to use a deity to cause harm, the sort of trouble they might expect in return would be related to the special areas the deity presides over?
lc

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: She Demon Wolf

My guess would be that not a lot would happen. I think the intent from the devotion of the attacked to the deity would cancel out the intent of the attacker who is using the deity. Potentially, the deity may react as if it were recieving the attack - and probably reflect it back round to the attacker. I imagine trying to attack a deity magickally would be about as useful as trying to shoot smoke, anyway.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Draginvry

[QUOTE=lioncastle;327298]

So perhaps what one could expect is, if an individual WERE to (try) to use a deity to cause harm, the sort of trouble they might expect in return would be related to the special areas the deity presides over?[/QUOTE]

Yes. I would expect a reaction to involve areas that the entity has expertise or interest in. But I'd still expect that most entities with enough status to be considered a deity probably wouldn't waste their time on you in the first place. After all, if you are so ignorant to even make such a request, your life is already destined for mishap.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: lioncastle

[QUOTE=Draginvry;327354]Yes. I would expect a reaction to involve areas that the entity has expertise or interest in. But I'd still expect that most entities with enough status to be considered a deity probably wouldn't waste their time on you in the first place. After all, if you are so ignorant to even make such a request, your life is already destined for mishap.[/QUOTE]

Amen to that, although it wasnt ME who did this, it would never in a million years have been ME.
lc

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Darkwater

Hi Lioncastle,

If your intent is strong & your purpose is laudible,your desires shall be attended too.If they disagree it is a good idea you have then it should go no further.

If they agree & are enraged by your story then the shit will really hit the fan.I first talked to Hathor,then briefed Sehkmet(who was really,really really in the mood).

What a night that was & I had a ringside seat.

Money won't help,praying won't help,begging won't help,crying won't help.....There is no help,only self help...that goes for Deity or beings of greater duration too,all shall be judged.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Scarlett_156

The following is my opinion, and feel free to reject or disregard it.

I am often completely astounded at how people who worship see the worship as being a one-way type of deal--that is, they worship the deity, and fear its totally random and inexplicable wrath... and that's all. The deity apparently is never expected to reciprocate or otherwise DO ANYTHING for the human who worships it.

Why worship, if all it generates is fear? If nothing else, religious devotion should make one feel GOOD. Being reassured as to one's safety in worshipping, I would think, would be something else that a devotee might reasonably expect.

But when all is said and done, most deities ARE pretty untrustworthy, or so it seems. That's why I don't worship anything on a regular basis. To me, if a god can't do anything for me, then I'm not wasting my time on it, and I have yet to encounter any god that seems worth the time and trouble.

I do worship occasionally, but only for the fun of it, or to establish a connection with some force that I need in working. As with nearly everything else, when it comes to worship I keep my expectations REALLY low.

Blind worship and obedience to ANY god, no matter what his/her attributes, is an evolutionary step backwards. It's one of the things that makes me suspect that humanity is on its way out, evolutionarily speaking.

I know this sounds kinda harsh--but the situation you are describing is harsh, and perhaps a different point of view might be helpful. xoxo Scarlett

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: High Priest Enki

The God's believe in just vengeance, if that person has done wrong by the gods and you in a way the gods would find despicable, then requesting vengeance on a level they see fit would be the best course of action, if it is deserved they will deliver it.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: lioncastle

And if it isn't deserved? If the human is manipulating the god to cover their own absurd malice and devious aims?

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Rend Sever

[QUOTE=lioncastle;327423]And if it isn't deserved? If the human is manipulating the god to cover their own absurd malice and devious aims?[/QUOTE]

I'd say any human thinking that can manipulate a true deity is a fool and deserving of some repercussion themselves, if not for their sheer arrogance. Hehe.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: High Priest Enki

People cannot manipulate the gods to their will, the gods communicate telepathically so they sense what you want and your intentions, if it is deserved it is deserved and they will get punished, if it is not deserved then that is a time you have to look at yourself and your anger and think about trying to control your emotions more.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: MagiAwen

Hmmm. Timely discussion.... here's my opinions/observations.

Well. I have had someone "send" a deity "after" me... I'll tell some of how it went.

Worst attack ever in my life, that is most assuredly. I did not have a personal relationship with the deity that was sent forth to exact the practitioner's revenge. However, I did/do have a personal interest/relationship with a system similar to the system this operator was working within. HOWEVER, I don't really think that having or not having a personal relationship with the pantheon, system or specific deity is necessary for "coming out alright."

Here are some curious things I noted during this experience.

*The operator knew what he was doing, that is for sure, and he had had practice...so this wasn't some kid that talks to ouja boards and runs around waving his wand periodically gouging the air and saying his magic words.

*The deity did attack and it was not a fun experience.

*The operator was not justified. That is, I actually did this person no wrong - I think this is important.

*During the experience, once I identified what/whom was attacking and did my own thing also acknowledging my "side of the story" and why this attack was not justified. It was over.

Some more interesting points:
Anytime I have been psychically attacked (or it is assumed that is what it was...not many either), this sort of justification did not go through. Meaning...it seems that when a person is simply using their own will/power/whatever to attack and/or drain another...explaining that there is no justified reason for the attack does you no good...or at least...it did me no good.

This is the second time now I have been attacked by an entity through another operator. This is the first time I was attacked by an entity that was a deity. There are striking differences in structure, intensity and there are apparent "rules". This I don't mind...as in general person to person psychic attack there aren't any "rules" at all really.

Another thing to note while in this experience with a deity attacking me through an operator is that at first I did not recognize who/from where it was coming from, the reason and so forth. So I used a general angelic-like clearing/banishing ritual of my own design. This simply aggravated the situation, causing the physical and mental pain to rise to extraordinary heights. So that was buggered.

When I switched to a system that I learned first, have been practicing the longest and is just as old or older than the system from which the deity that was attacking...that is when my shit worked. The system I use is a sort of modified version/combination of Zorastrian/Sumerian Hermetics...well...I'm not explaining that...but that is basically what it is.

I think the main point there that is the reason I even think this is applicable is that:

1. Only when I used a system that I was most comfortable in/have used the longest and also seemed more in accordance with the system that was being accessed to attack, did I actually gain some ground and eventually relief.

2. When I recognized that in fact it was a deity and stated my side of the situation...this seemed to help as well...and I think that because of #1 I was able to gain a more grounded stability within the situation that #2 was able also to work.

I have to say though. After this experience and after my several hour recovery, I did do some work that hopefully put enough "filters" up that it is not a repeated occurence.

I also have to say that most probably because I do not define myself with a deity or some sort of patron/protector that that is why I got attacked in the first place...besides the fact that the operator is actually quite good and he chose the King of The Dead to attack me.

Also.. I don't think that what was happening was exactly the operators intention. I believe the operator, through his own words about this event, actually meant to kill me. But I was going through a judgement, or so it seemed. This strikes me as much different than another lesser entity or psychic attack..because this was not just mindless adherence to an operators demands/commands...or else I'm not sure I'd be around to talk about it. Seriously.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: lioncastle

[QUOTE=Rend Sever;327432]I'd say any human thinking that can manipulate a true deity is a fool and deserving of some repercussion themselves, if not for their sheer arrogance. Hehe.[/QUOTE] Hhhmmm, yes of course I agree with the "manipulate" part. but what do we do when we make offerings, tend shrines etc? Pray? I have petitioned my dieties ('mine' as in, the ones I am closest to) for protection, to help with healing...so (playing Devil's Advocate to my own topic) why NOT say, ok Oya, I've been screwed around enough by so-and-so, can't you please go put a stop to it?

I guess what I'm wondering is, say I DID "send" Oya after someone (I assure you I did NOT) and that person turns out to be a Priest of Her?

I know a lot of folks here use Goetics and servitors to exact vengance or whatever. This isn't my scene at all. But even when we pray for protection, the diety petitioned to might well say, Ok, I'll protect you allright - and cause some damage to the "enemy"? The Orisas in particular are not to be toyed with. I am a child of Obatala and Oxun, and they have both given me some not so pleasant lessons, when I was first working with Yoruba magick.

The more I look at the ethcis of it all, the more I'm happy I really don't ask for much.
lc

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Darkwater

Can you not just sort it out yourself?

On the grand scale of things?

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: lioncastle

I'm not sure what you mean. This is really an academic sort of a question, although I have been in past attacked by people totally unwilling to reason or talk etc. and who wanted me dead over some relatively minor issues. If you are involved in the occult long enough, it will happen to you too. But seriously - I'm just wondering what others here think.

lc

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Darkwater

eh,just makes you sound a wee bit weak or alone,these are things a warrior at your side could sort out ok,just maybe a wee change in your pattern?


It was a major deal spanning more than a millenia that Hathor & Sehkmet discussed with me,I just had to point the finger & have profitted ever since,this being the catalyst to my touring pantheon,in love.

Good luck!

Who is pissing you off & why?

Baste gets rid of pests & vermin once the big stuff is away,I know who you remind me off & would love to have a wee cup of tea & a chat with you(as I always do)

In love,

Andy

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: lioncastle

Wow..strange reply, but intersting. I think of myself as one of the most powerful individuals I know, and I don't mean that in a boastful way. I mean powerful as in strong. If I told you what I've lived through in fifty years...and I do know many, many people who have lived through a lot, but I feel i have not ony survived, but grown and learned. So "weak" applying to me, is..sort of amusing, really, and strange.

As for alone - well, in some ways aren't we all? I'm perhaps unique in that I fully accept that. I'm not, however, "alone" in any lonely sense. I have perhaps more friends than I can keep up with, and the company of my pack which I cherish above all. Again - not being boastful here, but your words seem strange. Where in my posts did I soulnd weak...or alone? It was surely not a reflection of the reality here.

I did state a few times I believe that this was an academic question. It's true it was prompted by my learning that one of the things an attacker had used against me was a deity I've had a very close relationship - ancestral, really - for decades. I have never used any deity I'm close to, to try to harm anyone. So I wondered what the repercussions could be for the sender, how it might have manifested in my own life - and I wonder this truly more intellectually than personally. I don't actually care what happens to her, as long as someday, she is in less pain and stops lashing out so viciously and deviously at others. It really is my belief that we should simply vibrate at a higher level than our attackers or detractors and thus, their "curses" continually miss the mark. Eventually, as we know, they will return on the sender.

If you mean my reference of "attacks" in general, they are an unavoidable aspect of working in the occult - I would say in life, but greatly amplified in occult circles. Many, many unhappy and unstable individuals come to the occult, and target others as some display of "power". There is nothing at all weak in being prepared for that.

In answer to your post - I not only have a warrior at my side (I don't discuss Her here at OF but rather, keep things light, for my own reasons) I AM a warrior. The fact that many see me as lightweight is both deliberate and beneficial. It's also not a false persona; I am actually what I appear to be. I'm just also...other things. Let's say...multi-dimensional. Displays of how powerful I can be etc strike me as vulgar and unwarranted. It also sets anyone who wishes to attack me up to know where and how to strike. And this is experience, not paranoia, speaking here. I always prefer a gentle solution to conflicts.

Who do I remind you of? You're welcome here for tea anytime, as long as you don't mind a house ful of cats and dogs.

lc

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: lioncastle

Hi Scarlett,

I always value your opinion, just needed a day or two to consider this one.

I am often completely astounded at how people who worship see the worship as being a one-way type of deal--that is, they worship the deity, and fear its totally random and inexplicable wrath... and that's all. The deity apparently is never expected to reciprocate or otherwise DO ANYTHING for the human who worships it.

I personally DO have - if not expectations, well, requests? I have asked for protection, for my dogs to be well, for healing...I completely agreee that's fair enough. I've also made one or two inappropriate requests and always got a smack to the head over it - but I deserved it (metaphorically). I suppose I could have phrased it - say two people both ask Oxun for the same man. Then what? Or one person uses Chango to attack a priest of his. How do you think these conflicts sort themsleves out when they involve diety?

Why worship, if all it generates is fear? If nothing else, religious devotion should make one feel GOOD. Being reassured as to one's safety in worshipping, I would think, would be something else that a devotee might reasonably expect.

Again, agreed. I have long felt protection coming from several of my own close deities. But there are limits to what I would ask.

But when all is said and done, most deities ARE pretty untrustworthy, or so it seems. That's why I don't worship anything on a regular basis. To me, if a god can't do anything for me, then I'm not wasting my time on it, and I have yet to encounter any god that seems worth the time and trouble.

I do worship occasionally, but only for the fun of it, or to establish a connection with some force that I need in working. As with nearly everything else, when it comes to worship I keep my expectations REALLY low.

I guess I have high expectations from some of them. I've given a lot, and I expect certain things. The more intensely I have worked with a deity the more I would expect. Not speaking only about gifts here, but invocation in some cases, and various lifestyle changes I have made in honour of the deity. I feel the ones I work with are good to me. I would - personally - find it disrespectful to just all up a deity and say hey so-and -so, go kick someone's butt for me and I'll lighta candle for you.

Blind worship and obedience to ANY god, no matter what his/her attributes, is an evolutionary step backwards. It's one of the things that makes me suspect that humanity is on its way out, evolutionarily speaking.

I know this sounds kinda harsh--but the situation you are describing is harsh, and perhaps a different point of view might be helpful.

Yes...it is. I don't feel enslaved to any of them, but in some cases, I DO feel extremely close. I've had enough evidence of their existence and attitudes to fel there are a few "deities" I know well, and feel indebted to. It is as you say, a reciprocal arrangement.
lc

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Darkwater

I love cats and dogs so do my boy's

*put's kettle on,boys play with cats & dogs,cats head for the high ground away from Gregor*

ok,the buzz I get from you is similar to an entity I have met on many levels,whom I always stop for a chat with as she likes my gossip & I learn stuff from her too.

I have met her in Egyptian Pantheon(in love),Void(in love),Nordic,at passage to Aesir(in love),Indian Pantheon(in love),Greek(in love),Mexican(in love)at various stages in my Astral(in love),most notably seeing her in her highest form there recently as she was high above me spinning threads of reality,these being the very routes I take to travel Astral,the shortcuts,through the middle at supergreasy fast lightening speed though you don't know where you are going until you get there & back sometimes.It is also impossible to define the makeup of the routes,what they are constructed of until you gain perspective on the subject.


All too often our chats are too brief as you sense everything about me in an instant.

*sips tea*


It saddens me that some one or another would attack you,or there is something that causes you pain to *absorb*,if there is anything I can do then please ask.It would be nothing compared to the great things your higher self(ves)have done for me,are doing for me/will do for me.

The petty ones obsessed with self empowerment through ego sadden me greatly & I would love for you to tell me who should be chastised.Who or what is bugging you.

You are very powerful spiritually,I know you do not make false boasts & to suggest such a thing is ridiculous,then again all is vanity...........

Point the finger in whatever direction pleases you,you are not alone although prefer to be so.

Namaste

DW

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: lioncastle

Namaste, Darkwater. On this Path we all walk alone. It is always good to meet a kindred, sip some tea, and communicate. You have grasped the paradox; we are all alone, we are all together.


I am fine, but appreciate your presence.
Till we meet again?
lioncastle

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Rin Daemoko

Naturally it depends on which deity and what the nature of everyone's relationship with em is. That said, I would imagine that such a request would be met with an unsurprising, "No" and that you may lose the deity's favor to some degree, or altogether.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Darkwater

"There's nothing to mourn about death any more than there is to mourn about the growing of a flower. What is terrible is not death but the lives people live or don't live up until their death. They don't honor their own lives, they piss on their lives. They shit them away. Dumb fuckers. They concentrate too much on fucking, movies, money, family, fucking. Their minds are full of cotton. They swallow God without thinking, they swallow country without thinking. Soon they forget how to think, they let others think for them. Their brains are stuffed with cotton. They look ugly, they talk ugly, they walk ugly. Play them the great music of the centuries and they can't hear it. Most people's deaths are a sham. There's nothing left to die." Hagbard Celine

Peter O'Toole (The Ruling Class) i "Everything is more or less organized matter. To think so is against religion, but I think so just the same. When did I realize I was God? Well, I was praying and I suddenly realized I was talking to myself."

"A little thing about titles. Someday,somewhere,you may be required to live up to them. Be careful what you call yourself, it could be painful filling those shoes." Frater Habilus


Many thanks for your blessing,Great Mother.There is so much I cannot say right now such is my path & the exciting times in which we live.


I'll be seeing *you* before long,as ever I greatly appreciate the new perspective & focus.Not to mention the food for the soul on another thread which I shall endevour to respond to seperately.

The only thing to avoid is stagnation,stagnation is the killer.

As always I enjoy the company too.If your cause is just your desires shall be attended too.



Namaste

DW