Original post: She Demon Wolf
Was aimed at everyone involved.
Spirituality and the Sumarian Gods
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Original post: Ninus
[QUOTE=Ashnook;324277]Lumping Enki with your rabble of western ceremonial demons is just poor scholarship (not done in your post but in the website that you advertise.) Lucifer/Satan is the opposing force that most religions have always had. Pazuzu, Nammtar, Nergal, Moloch, Set, Mars, etc. are all fine examples of this. [/QUOTE]
Dude. Interesting theory, but dubious. You really are going to have to back up these sweeping statements.
Lucifer is one that always makes me wonder. People use this name as if they know all about it... But very few actually do.
It refers to a specific entity, and has a very specific myth around it. This myth can be found in the Bible. But did it originate there???? Are you aware of what this myth is and where it actually comes from? I find it hard to believe that this is your 'opposing force'.
Lets move on to Mars. Could you please explain how he was understood as the 'opposing (evil) god' in the Roman system? Are you aware that Mars was worshipped in two forms? Which of these forms are you referring to? And why on earth was he worshipped and honoured if he was so 'evil'?
If anything, I would have thought that Hades/Pluto would have been this 'opposing' deity, or perhaps Chronos/Saturn, or Hera/Juno - but even then it would have been incorrect to label them thus.
[QUOTE=Ashnook;324277]The anti-christian rhetoric about them demonizing older faiths is somewhat bullshit. Certainly it did happen, but other religions did it far before and far worse. Not far before, but certainly far worse, the muslims slaughtered thousands of pagans in the middle east. Egypt meets the west and once again, demonizing occurs. It is quite natural for this to happen.[/QUOTE]
Again, you are going to have a great deal of difficulty backing up this little belief.
Lets be fair and lump all the Judeo/Christian/Islamic faiths together. They are all from the same family... Comparing the behaviour of the Jews in the Old Testament to the behaviour of the Christians during the Crusades to the behaviour of the Muslims today doesn't make it a 'universal' phenomenon.
The Greek and Roman systems were inclusive and tended to adopt the other faiths of peoples they conquered. This created a massive number of gods and was part of the reason why the ruling class of Rome decided to create the one 'catholic' religion - the Roman Catholic Religion.
How do you equate their behaviour with that of the Christians?
Have you ever read any of the ancient Babylonian edicts? Every attempt was made to name and honour every known deity. In fact they usually included a comment like "and if there are any other gods we have missed, hail unto you as well".
Please explain how this is the same as the Christian ways?
[QUOTE=Ashnook;324277]The christian satan may be modeled after pagan gods, but if so it is not a jumble of gods as you claim. It is a model that has been used for thousands of years. Nammtar, Pazuzu, Nergal, Set, Apep (Apophis), Mars, Loki, etc. Most cultures have their adversaries (demons etc.) Some are borrowed to be sure, but generally when a deity is borrowed it keeps its function.[/QUOTE]
A borrowed deity keeps its function? How so? Baal (translation: The Lord - and used just as The Lord is used in the bible to replace the real name) was a glorious God in the early Semitic system. Today this deity is considered to be another name for evil. How on earth did this happen?
"At first the name Ba'al was used by the Jews for their God without discrimination, but as the struggle between the two religions developed, the name Ba'al was given up in Judaism as a thing of shame, and even names like Jerubba'al were changed to Jerubbosheth: Hebrew bosheth means "shame". Zondervan's Pictorial Bible Dictionary (1976) ISBN 0-310-23560-X "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baal
[QUOTE=Ashnook;324277]Your anti-judeo/christian rhetoric is nearly sophomoric. Why do you not, in your post or in the website that you drip into your signature, discuss the parallels between the christian deity Jesus and Enki? The Sumerian gods that reside above the underworld have more in common with Christian divinity than they do with Christian deviltry .
-Ashnook[/QUOTE]
Well yes... Considering that the Sumerian system is the foundation of the whole Judeo/Christian/Islamic tradition this theory makes sense. But where is your evidence?
It still doesn't say much as the orignal gods were quickly vilified, the traditions were given new names, and no recognition was ever given to the source of all this wisdom.
[QUOTE=Ashnook;324277]Lumping Enki with your rabble of western ceremonial demons is just poor scholarship (not done in your post but in the website that you advertise.) Lucifer/Satan is the opposing force that most religions have always had. Pazuzu, Nammtar, Nergal, Moloch, Set, Mars, etc. are all fine examples of this. [/QUOTE]
Dude. Interesting theory, but dubious. You really are going to have to back up these sweeping statements.
Lucifer is one that always makes me wonder. People use this name as if they know all about it... But very few actually do.
It refers to a specific entity, and has a very specific myth around it. This myth can be found in the Bible. But did it originate there???? Are you aware of what this myth is and where it actually comes from? I find it hard to believe that this is your 'opposing force'.
Lets move on to Mars. Could you please explain how he was understood as the 'opposing (evil) god' in the Roman system? Are you aware that Mars was worshipped in two forms? Which of these forms are you referring to? And why on earth was he worshipped and honoured if he was so 'evil'?
If anything, I would have thought that Hades/Pluto would have been this 'opposing' deity, or perhaps Chronos/Saturn, or Hera/Juno - but even then it would have been incorrect to label them thus.
[QUOTE=Ashnook;324277]The anti-christian rhetoric about them demonizing older faiths is somewhat bullshit. Certainly it did happen, but other religions did it far before and far worse. Not far before, but certainly far worse, the muslims slaughtered thousands of pagans in the middle east. Egypt meets the west and once again, demonizing occurs. It is quite natural for this to happen.[/QUOTE]
Again, you are going to have a great deal of difficulty backing up this little belief.
Lets be fair and lump all the Judeo/Christian/Islamic faiths together. They are all from the same family... Comparing the behaviour of the Jews in the Old Testament to the behaviour of the Christians during the Crusades to the behaviour of the Muslims today doesn't make it a 'universal' phenomenon.
The Greek and Roman systems were inclusive and tended to adopt the other faiths of peoples they conquered. This created a massive number of gods and was part of the reason why the ruling class of Rome decided to create the one 'catholic' religion - the Roman Catholic Religion.
How do you equate their behaviour with that of the Christians?
Have you ever read any of the ancient Babylonian edicts? Every attempt was made to name and honour every known deity. In fact they usually included a comment like "and if there are any other gods we have missed, hail unto you as well".
Please explain how this is the same as the Christian ways?
[QUOTE=Ashnook;324277]The christian satan may be modeled after pagan gods, but if so it is not a jumble of gods as you claim. It is a model that has been used for thousands of years. Nammtar, Pazuzu, Nergal, Set, Apep (Apophis), Mars, Loki, etc. Most cultures have their adversaries (demons etc.) Some are borrowed to be sure, but generally when a deity is borrowed it keeps its function.[/QUOTE]
A borrowed deity keeps its function? How so? Baal (translation: The Lord - and used just as The Lord is used in the bible to replace the real name) was a glorious God in the early Semitic system. Today this deity is considered to be another name for evil. How on earth did this happen?
"At first the name Ba'al was used by the Jews for their God without discrimination, but as the struggle between the two religions developed, the name Ba'al was given up in Judaism as a thing of shame, and even names like Jerubba'al were changed to Jerubbosheth: Hebrew bosheth means "shame". Zondervan's Pictorial Bible Dictionary (1976) ISBN 0-310-23560-X "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baal
[QUOTE=Ashnook;324277]Your anti-judeo/christian rhetoric is nearly sophomoric. Why do you not, in your post or in the website that you drip into your signature, discuss the parallels between the christian deity Jesus and Enki? The Sumerian gods that reside above the underworld have more in common with Christian divinity than they do with Christian deviltry .
-Ashnook[/QUOTE]
Well yes... Considering that the Sumerian system is the foundation of the whole Judeo/Christian/Islamic tradition this theory makes sense. But where is your evidence?
It still doesn't say much as the orignal gods were quickly vilified, the traditions were given new names, and no recognition was ever given to the source of all this wisdom.
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Original post: Ashnook
Secondly, the Crusades were a holy was against Islam, not a holy war against heretics and pagans.
Thirdly, your discussion of the Greeks and Romans below proves my point. Most cultures conquer and borrow religious ideas from the conquered. That the Greeks and Romans included more than the Christians does not sway the merit of my argument. (Catholicism = Heavy dose of early Christianity + small dose of Judaism + Medium dose of Roman Sun Cult)
I am well acquainted with Babylonian and Sumerian religious practices.
No two gods are the same. I really hope that you did not gather this from my original post as that was not my intent. Every god has his or her own mythology and specific role in a culture. However, there is a common thread that runs in most religions and if you look closely you can see how many gods parallel in their overall functions. The original messenger god of evil fate and death is quite arguably Nammtar. In the Christian myths, the angel Gabriel is often the messenger of death. Do these two figures have much in common? No they do not. However both play a very similar role for the people who worship them.
The discussion at the time was about Satan viewed through Christian lenses, therefore I stated "Satan/Lucifer" to signify my continuation of this as this thread is about Sumerian Spirituality and not about the origins and myths surrounding Lucifer.Ninus;324735 wrote:Dude. Interesting theory, but dubious. You really are going to have to back up these sweeping statements.
Lucifer is one that always makes me wonder. People use this name as if they know all about it... But very few actually do.
It refers to a specific entity, and has a very specific myth around it. This myth can be found in the Bible. But did it originate there???? Are you aware of what this myth is and where it actually comes from? I find it hard to believe that this is your 'opposing force'.
I was referring to the Greek Ares more so than the Roman specific Mars, I should have been more specific, however the Romans did state that Mars and Ares were one in the same.Ninus;324735 wrote: Lets move on to Mars. Could you please explain how he was understood as the 'opposing (evil) god' in the Roman system? Are you aware that Mars was worshipped in two forms? Which of these forms are you referring to? And why on earth was he worshipped and honoured if he was so 'evil'?
If anything, I would have thought that Hades/Pluto would have been this 'opposing' deity, or perhaps Chronos/Saturn, or Hera/Juno - but even then it would have been incorrect to label them thus.
Firstly, I never referred to modern Islam. I was referring to the beginnings of Islam when that religion stole pagan land and converted them to Islam at the point of a sword.Ninus;324735 wrote: Again, you are going to have a great deal of difficulty backing up this little belief.
Lets be fair and lump all the Judeo/Christian/Islamic faiths together. They are all from the same family... Comparing the behaviour of the Jews in the Old Testament to the behaviour of the Christians during the Crusades to the behaviour of the Muslims today doesn't make it a 'universal' phenomenon.
Secondly, the Crusades were a holy was against Islam, not a holy war against heretics and pagans.
Thirdly, your discussion of the Greeks and Romans below proves my point. Most cultures conquer and borrow religious ideas from the conquered. That the Greeks and Romans included more than the Christians does not sway the merit of my argument. (Catholicism = Heavy dose of early Christianity + small dose of Judaism + Medium dose of Roman Sun Cult)
I never said they were the same, I said that they do the same thing. The manner in which they do is irrelevant to this discussion. They conquer and borrow the ideas of the conquered. The flavor of Christianity that did most of the conquering was the Catholic church. They would often exchange a pagan faiths gods for saints, modifying the attributes of saints when necessary.Ninus;324735 wrote: The Greek and Roman systems were inclusive and tended to adopt the other faiths of peoples they conquered. This created a massive number of gods and was part of the reason why the ruling class of Rome decided to create the one 'catholic' religion - the Roman Catholic Religion.
How do you equate their behaviour with that of the Christians?
Have you ever read any of the ancient Babylonian edicts? Every attempt was made to name and honour every known deity. In fact they usually included a comment like "and if there are any other gods we have missed, hail unto you as well".
Please explain how this is the same as the Christian ways?
I am well acquainted with Babylonian and Sumerian religious practices.
The original Baal is Marduk, though in some respects Anu or Enlil. Baal kept much of his attributes through and through, only the name was demonized. Note that in the original flood myths, either Anu or Enlil floods the earth. Jehova does the same in the Judaic texts.Ninus;324735 wrote: A borrowed deity keeps its function? How so? Baal (translation: The Lord - and used just as The Lord is used in the bible to replace the real name) was a glorious God in the early Semitic system. Today this deity is considered to be another name for evil. How on earth did this happen?
"At first the name Ba'al was used by the Jews for their God without discrimination, but as the struggle between the two religions developed, the name Ba'al was given up in Judaism as a thing of shame, and even names like Jerubba'al were changed to Jerubbosheth: Hebrew bosheth means "shame". Zondervan's Pictorial Bible Dictionary (1976) ISBN 0-310-23560-X "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baal
No two gods are the same. I really hope that you did not gather this from my original post as that was not my intent. Every god has his or her own mythology and specific role in a culture. However, there is a common thread that runs in most religions and if you look closely you can see how many gods parallel in their overall functions. The original messenger god of evil fate and death is quite arguably Nammtar. In the Christian myths, the angel Gabriel is often the messenger of death. Do these two figures have much in common? No they do not. However both play a very similar role for the people who worship them.
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Original post: Darkwater
*The road to wisdom is by a winding staircase*
HP Enki,you kinda brought this upon yourself by inviting argument in the first place,though can understand your frustration now all sorts of stuff has been thrown at you.
I love all Pantheon of all time,they are all great just some are less great than others,been corrupted or just passed their sell by date.
I prefer Void as a perspective point,everything else being just human interpretation since.Sumerian to my knowledge being closest to *source*,though some are better mapped,some are better explained to the emotional body & some just plain lack individuality.
It is all down to individual self interpretation,be the god.
So who is the *Enki* figurehead or label in these *earlier* Pantheon which are bandied about.
Any evidence of enlightened human society should be fully investigated.I am more interested in Mercury before Astral Storms reduced it too an Iron & rock ball,Venus being a *failed*(pml) or potential Sun,all astral biology/chemistry ongoing in the Universe & our fulfilling our potential,as Godseed.
Getting involved in a dogfight over religions we cannot comprehend (unless we look within & travel them),cannot properly date or *prove*.
The simple answer is that we are experienceing much the same sh*t,just in a different day,there being nothing new under the sun(over it,around it)
To linearly argue over the travel of our rock around a sun a few thousand times over the many many millions is futile & pointless.
Does everyone thing Enki is a good example of *early* pantheon?
I think the answer should be yes,he is great & worthy of love.
Satan is within,within us all,within Enki,within deep space.As DNA is credited to have come from the mixing of salty water with Enki's fresh stuff deep in caves,I reckon Satan was involved there too for he is part of genetic human make-up.
Enki is close to source,closer than most as we evolve & a great example.
Baal was great too as desert gods go for Nomadic people,just was corrupted & had to go.History repeats itself & it is time for another clean sweep.
In love & light
Andy
*The road to wisdom is by a winding staircase*
HP Enki,you kinda brought this upon yourself by inviting argument in the first place,though can understand your frustration now all sorts of stuff has been thrown at you.
I love all Pantheon of all time,they are all great just some are less great than others,been corrupted or just passed their sell by date.
I prefer Void as a perspective point,everything else being just human interpretation since.Sumerian to my knowledge being closest to *source*,though some are better mapped,some are better explained to the emotional body & some just plain lack individuality.
It is all down to individual self interpretation,be the god.
So who is the *Enki* figurehead or label in these *earlier* Pantheon which are bandied about.
Any evidence of enlightened human society should be fully investigated.I am more interested in Mercury before Astral Storms reduced it too an Iron & rock ball,Venus being a *failed*(pml) or potential Sun,all astral biology/chemistry ongoing in the Universe & our fulfilling our potential,as Godseed.
Getting involved in a dogfight over religions we cannot comprehend (unless we look within & travel them),cannot properly date or *prove*.
The simple answer is that we are experienceing much the same sh*t,just in a different day,there being nothing new under the sun(over it,around it)
To linearly argue over the travel of our rock around a sun a few thousand times over the many many millions is futile & pointless.
Does everyone thing Enki is a good example of *early* pantheon?
I think the answer should be yes,he is great & worthy of love.
Satan is within,within us all,within Enki,within deep space.As DNA is credited to have come from the mixing of salty water with Enki's fresh stuff deep in caves,I reckon Satan was involved there too for he is part of genetic human make-up.
Enki is close to source,closer than most as we evolve & a great example.
Baal was great too as desert gods go for Nomadic people,just was corrupted & had to go.History repeats itself & it is time for another clean sweep.
In love & light
Andy
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Original post: Ninus
[QUOTE=Darkwater;324916]*The road to wisdom is by a winding staircase*
It is all down to individual self interpretation,be the god.
Getting involved in a dogfight over religions we cannot comprehend (unless we look within & travel them),cannot properly date or *prove*.
The simple answer is that we are experienceing much the same sh*t,just in a different day,there being nothing new under the sun(over it,around it)[/QUOTE]
Fair enough.
I just feel that this way of thinking is a form of polytheism - which obviously is different to the monotheistic religions - some of whom would kill you for your heretical thinking.
[QUOTE=Darkwater;324916]*The road to wisdom is by a winding staircase*
It is all down to individual self interpretation,be the god.
Getting involved in a dogfight over religions we cannot comprehend (unless we look within & travel them),cannot properly date or *prove*.
The simple answer is that we are experienceing much the same sh*t,just in a different day,there being nothing new under the sun(over it,around it)[/QUOTE]
Fair enough.
I just feel that this way of thinking is a form of polytheism - which obviously is different to the monotheistic religions - some of whom would kill you for your heretical thinking.
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Original post: Darkwater
[QUOTE=Ninus;324937]Fair enough.
I just feel that this way of thinking is a form of polytheism - which obviously is different to the monotheistic religions - some of whom would kill you for your heretical thinking.[/QUOTE]
Who are you on about?
[QUOTE=Ninus;324937]Fair enough.
I just feel that this way of thinking is a form of polytheism - which obviously is different to the monotheistic religions - some of whom would kill you for your heretical thinking.[/QUOTE]
Who are you on about?
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Original post: Ninus
[QUOTE=Darkwater;324945]Who are you on about?[/QUOTE]
I dunno anymore... I'm lost....
The original point that I was arguing was that although Christianity has absorbed a lot of the teachings of other religions, it cannot be compared with them.
I was objecting to the comment that the good/evil (God/Satan) concept in christianity is a 'universal' phenomenon in religions. It isn't. It is a Zoroastrian one.
I was also objecting to the idea that 'all religions just absorb the religion before'. While this is true to a certain extent, I just feel that the way it has been done in the Judeo/Christian/Islamic trinity is very different to the previous systems. Basically, I feel that the previous systems gave more honour to the beliefs they absorbed and where thus more true to the ideas/wisdom inherent in the system.
Inherent in this was the statement that all religions 'oppressed' the religions of others. I don't agree. I think this is a very Judeo/Christian/Islamic phenomenon.
*soapbox session ends*
[QUOTE=Darkwater;324945]Who are you on about?[/QUOTE]
I dunno anymore... I'm lost....
The original point that I was arguing was that although Christianity has absorbed a lot of the teachings of other religions, it cannot be compared with them.
I was objecting to the comment that the good/evil (God/Satan) concept in christianity is a 'universal' phenomenon in religions. It isn't. It is a Zoroastrian one.
I was also objecting to the idea that 'all religions just absorb the religion before'. While this is true to a certain extent, I just feel that the way it has been done in the Judeo/Christian/Islamic trinity is very different to the previous systems. Basically, I feel that the previous systems gave more honour to the beliefs they absorbed and where thus more true to the ideas/wisdom inherent in the system.
Inherent in this was the statement that all religions 'oppressed' the religions of others. I don't agree. I think this is a very Judeo/Christian/Islamic phenomenon.
*soapbox session ends*
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Original post: High Priest Enki
*claps* well said man, couldn't agree more
*claps* well said man, couldn't agree more
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Original post: Darkwater
*applauds*
Zoroastrian is a curve ball for me,it covers so much throughout time.
I associate with Neitche's thus spoke Zarathustra having travelled much of that which he has written,even my son somehow had a dream which I interpreted as textbook neitche,the half man/half mole of *gravity*.So I told him to deal with the creature same as Neitche did,which worked & has led him on to greater things.
I am a spiritual entity,feel that the Zoroastrian is spiritual(however it is interpreted-I find difficulty getting my head around exactly who or what it is).I love all pantheonics.
I therefore deduce that Enki is the father of all spirituality,the archetype or at least one of the top known 3 archetype to be made manifest from void by way of ecstatic self love,which is good enough for me.
*applauds*
Zoroastrian is a curve ball for me,it covers so much throughout time.
I associate with Neitche's thus spoke Zarathustra having travelled much of that which he has written,even my son somehow had a dream which I interpreted as textbook neitche,the half man/half mole of *gravity*.So I told him to deal with the creature same as Neitche did,which worked & has led him on to greater things.
I am a spiritual entity,feel that the Zoroastrian is spiritual(however it is interpreted-I find difficulty getting my head around exactly who or what it is).I love all pantheonics.
I therefore deduce that Enki is the father of all spirituality,the archetype or at least one of the top known 3 archetype to be made manifest from void by way of ecstatic self love,which is good enough for me.
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Original post: LVXocculto
Kenneth Grant says the term Satan was adapted by the Hebrews from the Yezidic "Shaitan", saying the Yezids carried on Sumerian systems. He also refers to another Egyptian combo-deity, Set-An (Seth/Anubis), who represents the star Sirius. In the glossary of Outer Gateways he says it is of African origin "Sut" meaning black (like the english soot), and "an" meaning Dog. Is there a Sumerian deity who is a Black Dog?
Kenneth Grant says the term Satan was adapted by the Hebrews from the Yezidic "Shaitan", saying the Yezids carried on Sumerian systems. He also refers to another Egyptian combo-deity, Set-An (Seth/Anubis), who represents the star Sirius. In the glossary of Outer Gateways he says it is of African origin "Sut" meaning black (like the english soot), and "an" meaning Dog. Is there a Sumerian deity who is a Black Dog?
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Original post: High Priest Enki
that symbolisis actually refers to one of Enkis children, although you are getting a roundabout similarity there it is a little mixed.
that symbolisis actually refers to one of Enkis children, although you are getting a roundabout similarity there it is a little mixed.
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Original post: LVXocculto
I also saw a documentary a while back called Cloak of the Illuminati. I couldnt find it online but i didnt look very hard. It talked alot about the similarity between Sumerian deities, and different biblical stories. He talks alot about Enki, Enlil and how the story of John the Baptist is very similar to that of Ea. The host, William Henry, seems to be a bit whacko, but worth the watch for sure.
I also saw a documentary a while back called Cloak of the Illuminati. I couldnt find it online but i didnt look very hard. It talked alot about the similarity between Sumerian deities, and different biblical stories. He talks alot about Enki, Enlil and how the story of John the Baptist is very similar to that of Ea. The host, William Henry, seems to be a bit whacko, but worth the watch for sure.
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Original post: High Priest Enki
well biblical stories are all plagerised, the sumarian gods took part in helping many cultures, christianity was not one of hem, the bible has plagerised many older religions and actually readily insults the older gods, places like the Illuminati who actually follow the bible thinking the same gods took part there are very misguided, yes it may have simularitues and even the same kinds of beings but that is because the texts were stolen, lol.
well biblical stories are all plagerised, the sumarian gods took part in helping many cultures, christianity was not one of hem, the bible has plagerised many older religions and actually readily insults the older gods, places like the Illuminati who actually follow the bible thinking the same gods took part there are very misguided, yes it may have simularitues and even the same kinds of beings but that is because the texts were stolen, lol.