Why Does Magick Seem to Work?

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: IAO131

There is typically a goal, but that need not be objectively oriented.

Indeed - some people (completely wrongly) get the impresion that I am against all of magick. I believe subjective magick - Dion Fortune's definition of magick as the science and art of causing changes of consciousness in accordance with will - is great and works. Its the objective claims which (a) tread on the toes of science and (b) are more liable to fall victim to the two cognitive biases in the OP.

A number of people do things like use divinatory systems to spot trends ot for insight into what they should be aware of. There are a number of potential explainations for the results of these, from selective perception to subjective empowerment of the symbolism leading to certain actions to the somewhat more dubious but not necessarily dismissable Jungian notions.

Very true. No one theory can explain everything.

Evocation similarly is often informational in its exchange. This could be outlined as aspects of the psychological complex engaging in personification and infracommunication.

It sure could, but these cognitive biases are often not explaining magical phenomena in themselves but why people tend to think they 'worked' - they try to explain why people are so convinced their magic 'works', etc.

Illumination may be the subjective side of more objective transformation on neurological structure.

I couldnt agree with you more.

The suggestive but inconclusive research into brainwave patterns among so-called realized masters of meditative traditions suggests something akin to this may be taking place.

Perhaps. Crowley said a long time ago: "We assert a secret source of energy which explains the phenomenon of Genius... We do not believe in any supernatural explanations, but insist that this source may be reached by the following out of definite rules, the degree of success depending upon the capacity of the seeker, and not upon the favour of any Divine Being. We assert that the critical phenomenon which determines success is an occurrence in the brain characterized essentially by the uniting of subject and object. We propose to discuss this phenomenon, analyse its nature, determine accurately the physical, mental and moral conditions which are favourable to it, to ascertain its cause, and thus to produce it in ourselves, so that we may adequately study its effects." -Crowley, Liber IV, Part I, Introduction

IAO131

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: callum

Skeptismo118 said:

Really the only one that has the onus on "Make shit happen" is enchantment.
And frankly, fucked if I know exactly how that works

we may not have exactly the same perspective on enchantment... perhaps it is a combination of charisma, projection, attention and occassionally the spooky accausal but meaningful Jung factor (which in turn reinforces some of the other factors)... the human (or at least psychic) element of most systems is often the easiests to influence.. easier to persuade someone to buy you a drink than to conjure a beer from the ether.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: IAO131

we may not have exactly the same perspective on enchantment... perhaps it is a combination of charisma, projection, attention and occassionally the spooky accausal but meaningful Jung factor (which in turn reinforces some of the other factors)...

If its acausal then you didnt cause it therefore its not the enchantment... Funny how you disparage psychology and science in one thread and then use pseudo-understandings of it in other threads to make your points.

the human (or at least psychic) element of most systems is often the easiests to influence.. easier to persuade someone to buy you a drink than to conjure a beer from the ether.

And you do this through physical means anyhow, i.e. speaking to him in certain ways.

IAO131

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: occulture

I just don't wash my balls for a week. The muskey stank seems to give me a supernatural glamour over strangers. Or maybe I just think better with sticky balls.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: callum

If its acausal then you didnt cause it therefore its not the enchantment... Funny how you disparage psychology and science in one thread and then use pseudo-understandings of it in other threads to make your points.

please read again what i said about the influence occassional accausal fact

i don't really think Jungian notions come under scientific psychology so much as the art of psychoanalysis. aside from that i am uncertain as to where i have actually "disparaged" psychology.. of science. i believe what i have said in this thread is that the world has subjective as well as objective elements... psychology, as a science, presents a useful but incomplete picture. i understand that perhaps you are an elimativist in relation to such phenomenon as consciousness and intentianality... but even a lot of psychologists would not take that position.

the scientific method limits itself to public phenomena but that does not mean that all psychologists personally or professionally hold that position. a behabvioruist will purely study behavior because there is not way to publically study mental or psychic processes which is different than saying that there is nothing going on inside the brain... similarly a neuroscientist will study publically accessible electrochemical phenomena but that does not mean that there are no intentional processes occuring... a congitive psychologist the relationship between certain stimuli and certain verbal behavior... etc.

And you do this through physical means anyhow, i.e. speaking to him in certain ways.

you do this by influencing her subjective reality....the magician's and the subject's. which is why it is easier to use words (intentional objects) to influences psychic objects (like people) than to directly influence non-psychic objects like pitchers of beer. words, pictures, images and fetishes are generally used in enchantments precisely for this reason. as i said, magick is about object AND subject (see my original post in this tread).

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: fratersb

Does it matter why it seems to work as long as it does? Weather you believe in angels and demons or that they are just part of your psyche, if it works, use it.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Qez

Magic seems to work to the seemingly.

I simply call it the miracle of life!

[IAO131]

93,

Im glad this thread survived - the book 'Naturalistic Occultism,' which this thread is a chapter of, will be coming out soon (witin a month or two)

IAO131