What is Crowley's view on destiny and free will?

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Original post: Joker

After studying works such as The Aeneid, The Thebian Plays and The Inferno I can't help but to contemplate the endless struggle between fate and free will. This morning while I was in my shower I realized I was not fully educated about Crowley's stand on this struggle. He argues that every man and woman has a True Will but I feel his philosophy's theme, Do what thou wilt, conflicts with this idea. I understand 93 is exercising your True Will, but I feel there is an illusion created that one's True Will is fate while manifesting this fate is through the act of free will.

Am I getting terms mixed up? Could someone point me towards an article (cough cough IAO131).

Thanks

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Original post: AstralMagickCraft

He gives several conflicting translations. Think of it this way, where you are is a result of where you were and which direction you moved in. If I decide to go eat something, its fate. If I decide to go read something, its fate. My actions control my fate in ways I may never understand. It's fate that you ask this, and if you didn't it wouldve been fate, it would have been the decision of a higher power, YOU. Don't lessen your opinion of fate, but understand your own control is much greater than you would have thought.

In summary, they don't conflict at all, and I think crowley knew that.

(cough cough IAO131).

He'll probably repost one and claim it as his own...because it is :p

At any rate, fate comes from "the fates" in greek mythology represented, I believe, in the fortune card. The idea was, these three people control a persons destiny. and they were the past the present and the future. You, of course control your future through your actions, and are here because of your past, which you controlled.

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Original post: IAO131

[QUOTE=AstralMagickCraft;374936]He gives several conflicting translations. Think of it this way, where you are is a result of where you were and which direction you moved in. If I decide to go eat something, its fate. If I decide to go read something, its fate. My actions control my fate in ways I may never understand. It's fate that you ask this, and if you didn't it wouldve been fate, it would have been the decision of a higher power, YOU. Don't lessen your opinion of fate, but understand your own control is much greater than you would have thought.

In summary, they don't conflict at all, and I think crowley knew that.


He'll probably repost one and claim it as his own...because it is :p

At any rate, fate comes from "the fates" in greek mythology represented, I believe, in the fortune card. The idea was, these three people control a persons destiny. and they were the past the present and the future. You, of course control your future through your actions, and are here because of your past, which you controlled.[/QUOTE]

I actually have written on free will in Thelema. Do you have a problem with that AstralMagickCraft?

Here you go:

The lack or illusion of free will does not negate the notion of Will in Thelema. A way to understand this is through analogy. The motion of the planets and stars does not change no matter what interpretation one gives of these bodies. A Copernican interpretation upset the Ptolemaic interpretation of the solar system as geocentric (as well as those who were attached to the Ptolemaic interpretation) yet Copernicus did not re-arrange the solar system - things continued as they always did, but humans grasped a more accurate way of approaching these motions. In the same sense, since "All is Will, and yet all is Necessity" (The Law is For All, p.54) all things will always follow their allotted path, and although both may be apparent there is no "freedom" nor choice. In this sense, "acquiescence in the order of Nature is the ultimate Wisdom" (The Law is For All, p.96). Only in the sense of identifying oneself with All things, with the Lord of the Universe, can one be relieved of this pressure known as the illusion of free will and choice. "This is the evident and final Solvent of the Knot Philosophical concerning Fate and Freewill, that it is thine own Self, omniscient and omnipotent, sublime in Eternity, that first didst order the Course of thine own Orbit, so that that which befalleth thee by Fate is indeed the necessary Effect of thine own Will... Behold, there is a Pageant of Triumph as each Star, free from Confusion, sweepeth free in its right Orbit" (Liber Aleph). Again, it is said that "the Aspirant must well understand that it is no paradox to say that the Annihilation of the Ego in the Abyss is the condition of emancipating the true Self, and exalting to unimaginable heights. So long as one remains "one's self," one is overwhelmed by the Universe; destroy the sense of self, and every event is equally an expression of one's Will, since its occurrence is the resultant of the concourse of the forces which one recognizes as one's own" (The Law is For All, p.95). Further, "Everything in itself is perfect, but when things are muddled, they become evil," (The Law is For All, p.27) and "To swerve is ultimately impossible; to seek to serve is to suffer" (The Law is For All, p.54)

I could argue against free will on the grounds of physics, psychology, and neurology entirely but that would be irrelevant really (unless you just want scientific reinfocement of the above proposition). But here is a good quote from the Gita on free will:

"All actions are performed by the gunas [qualities/contistuents] of prakriti[nature]. Deluded by his identification with the ego, a person thinks, "I am the doer." But the illumined man or woman understands the domain of the gunas and is not attached. Such people know that the gunas [contistuents of nature] interact with each other; they do not claim to be the doer."
-Bhagavad Gita, III:27-28 (from 1500 B.C. or earlier in Rig Veda)

and from western philosophy:

"Experience teaches us no less clearly than reason, that men believe themselves to be free, simply because they are conscious of their actions, and unconscious of the causes whereby those actions are determined; and, further, it is plain that the dictates of the mind are but another name for the appetites, and therefore vary according to the varying state of the body." -Spinoza, Ethics, Part III, Proposition II

IAO131

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Original post: destructive_metaphysician

you'll also find good food for thought anywhere in nietzsche. crowley draws freely from nietzsche in my opinion, and nietzsche does not believe in free will, yet he talks often about the will.

your thelema is not free, its just your holy will. none of us gets to be free. not that we are somehow enslaved or oppressed, but freedom in an illusion that ultimately oppresses us as soon as we posit its possibility.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: AstralMagickCraft

I actually have written on free will in Thelema. Do you have a problem with that AstralMagickCraft?

Yes I know, that was a joke. Thats why I added "because it is," being the punchline.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: IAO131

[QUOTE=destructive_metaphysician;375075]you'll also find good food for thought anywhere in nietzsche. crowley draws freely from nietzsche in my opinion, and nietzsche does not believe in free will, yet he talks often about the will.

your thelema is not free, its just your holy will. none of us gets to be free. not that we are somehow enslaved or oppressed, but freedom in an illusion that ultimately oppresses us as soon as we posit its possibility.[/QUOTE]

Indeed - some people say 'well you're taking away human dignity' to which I would reply its hard to take away something which was illusory to begin with.

IAO131

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Original post: MysteryMan

Hmmm... From what I can remember, Crowley's "Will" was more like "destiny."

I think it was in Liber ABA where, while discussing the nature of "will", he says that everyone should strive to find out what their fate/"will" is then drop everything else and do it.

Officially swearing to do that would give you an instant Adept grade in his order if I'm not mistaken.

I remember the phrase that said something like "if you follow your will, the universe will help you" or "nothing in the universe can possibly stop you."

In simple words, crack your skull open finding out what you TRULY want to do with yourself and your life, what you were born here to do, and then do it...stop caring what other people think or what you even think is possible...just do it.

Do what thou wilt.

Interestingly enough, this is what 99.9% of the self-help gurus (Tracy, Proctor, Hill, etc.) teach.

In this sense, there IS such a thing as a free-will in the sense that have the ability to choose whether to follow that path or not, yet, it appears that knowing it, then following definitely makes things WAAAY easier.

From something written during Crowley's time, I must admit, that point of view was pretty revolutionary.

It's funny, cuz after studying developmental psych, there's an actual scientific basis to this. People are born with what they call a "temperament." Although the research is still in its infancy, certain temperaments lead themselves to certain careers, etc. It's an inborn thing, so it's not learned.

Seriously, it's one of the few things I've read in the occult paradigm that has actually helped me in a practical way.

FSEM

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Original post: Ishvara

So, has any Thelemites found out what their True Will is yet?

(This is not a "hate post" btw, I find it useful too.. Just curious that's all..)

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Original post: Qez

[QUOTE=Ishvara;375568]So, has any Thelemites found out what their True Will is yet?

(This is not a "hate post" btw, I find it useful too.. Just curious that's all..)[/QUOTE]

True will is the knowing before, after and as the thought of the knowing. It allows the thought to be, yet at the same time it contains the thought. The ultimate container of everything and nothing. It cannot be found, because it does not need to be sought. Grace, and sincerity in our spiritual path allows the light of our true will to penetrate our minds.

If one must seek, seek to know oneself, because until one remains ignorant, then what chance are we to know our true will?

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: IAO131

Hmmm... From what I can remember, Crowley's "Will" was more like "destiny."

I think it was in Liber ABA where, while discussing the nature of "will", he says that everyone should strive to find out what their fate/"will" is then drop everything else and do it.

Officially swearing to do that would give you an instant Adept grade in his order if I'm not mistaken.

You are mistaken.

I remember the phrase that said something like "if you follow your will, the universe will help you" or "nothing in the universe can possibly stop you."

Pretty much... insofar as the true will is one's will united with the universe or 'Movement of Things' as he says.

In simple words, crack your skull open finding out what you TRULY want to do with yourself and your life, what you were born here to do, and then do it...stop caring what other people think or what you even think is possible...just do it.

Yeah, Im not a fan of the whole 'you were born to do it' since someone could easily switch careers and still be doing their will in my opinion. In my thinking, its more of a moment-to-moment thing where if you clear away your misconceptions the pure will will spring forward. Its just attuning to one's original/true nature without all the dirt covering it and letting it flow without hindrance.

[INDENT]"The Concealed Child becomes the Conquering Child, the armed Horus avenging his father Osiris. So also our own Silent Self, helpless and witless, hidden within us, will spring forth, if we have craft to loose him to the Light, spring lustily forward with his cry of Battle, the Word of our True Wills."

"We are not to regard ourselves as base beings, without whose sphere is Light or "God". Our minds and bodies are veils of the Light within. The uninitiate is a "Dark Star", and the Great Work for him is to make his veils transparent by 'purifying' them. This 'purification' is really 'simplification'; it is not that the veil is dirty, but that the complexity of its folds makes it opaque. The Great Work therefore consists principally in the solution of complexes. Everything in itself is perfect, but when things are muddled, they become 'evil'."
[/INDENT]

In this sense, there IS such a thing as a free-will in the sense that have the ability to choose whether to follow that path or not, yet, it appears that knowing it, then following definitely makes things WAAAY easier.

I dont think you understand what 'free will' means and the arguments against it. Even your choices are conditioned/determined/fate.

From something written during Crowley's time, I must admit, that point of view was pretty revolutionary.

Although in this regard its not different at all from Christians' notions bout the Will of God (look at the Lord's prayer, Meister Eckhart's writings, Miguel Molinos writings...), the notion about the Dharma in Hinduism & Buddhism, or becoming the Way in Taoism.

It's funny, cuz after studying developmental psych, there's an actual scientific basis to this. People are born with what they call a "temperament." Although the research is still in its infancy, certain temperaments lead themselves to certain careers, etc. It's an inborn thing, so it's not learned.

A temperament is way different than some kind of in-born, destiny-controlled career or something like that. Its just a way of saying you have a certain way of interacting with the world. Besides, its possible to change one's temperament.

Seriously, it's one of the few things I've read in the occult paradigm that has actually helped me in a practical way.

...Thats kinda sad.

IAO131

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Original post: AstralMagickCraft

So, has any Thelemites found out what their True Will is yet?

Discovering your true will is more like acting it.

It cannot be described, it is beyond words. "That will which can be named, is not the true will" or something.

IAO131, you explained it so much better in your interview with occult sentinel. Do you mind explaining?

I mean, your "true will" isn't going to be "CEO of X" "trashman in ontario" or even "president."

It isn't even going to be "one who is good at finding patterns, logic and healing"

It is indescribable, because, well I can't exactly descrbe it, but you may get the idea.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: IAO131

[QUOTE=AstralMagickCraft;375733]Discovering your true will is more like acting it.

It cannot be described, it is beyond words. "That will which can be named, is not the true will" or something.

IAO131, you explained it so much better in your interview with occult sentinel. Do you mind explaining?

I mean, your "true will" isn't going to be "CEO of X" "trashman in ontario" or even "president."

It isn't even going to be "one who is good at finding patterns, logic and healing"

It is indescribable, because, well I can't exactly descrbe it, but you may get the idea.[/QUOTE]

I dont remember what I said on the interview - sicne it was mostly about the Psychological Commentary I was probably saying something along the lines that in Liber AL, when it says there is "a factor infinite & unknown," it refers to the subconscious and therefore one could never completely know one's Will or put it in finite terms (the interpretation of that factor as the subconscious is actually from Crowley in his New Comment). I also wrote more in general about he Will being supra-rational (above the reach of reason):

Part II: The Will is Supra-rational

"Our own Silent Self, helpless and witless, hidden within us, will spring forth, if we have craft to loose him to the Light, spring lustily forward with his cry of Battle, the Word of our True Wills."
-Aleister Crowley, The Law is for All, commentary to I:7

The first question one might ask when embarking upon the quest to understand the philosophy of Thelema is "What is my Will?" or "How do I know what my Will is?" The answer to this questions might initially be presumed to be answerable in the form of a sentence such as "my Will is to be a doctor" or "my Will is to eat this sandwich," but this is not so, for this is to restrict the Will to the trappings of language and reason. The Will is the innermost Motion of one's being, an individual expression of the Eternal Energy of the cosmos.

"The Way that can be named is not the Eternal Way." [1]

To confine the Will to logical expression is to inherently assert a limit. Further, it assumes that one must have a logical reason for acting such-and-such way, but to do so would make one "fall down into the pit called Because" to "perish with the dogs of Reason." [2] As the Beast remarked, "It is ridiculous to ask a dog why it barks," [3] for this is simply an expression of its nature, not determined by any kind of rational process. "One must fulfil one's true Nature, one must do one's Will. To question this is to destroy confidence, and so to create an inhibition... There is no 'reason' why a Star should continue in its orbit. Let her rip! Every time the conscious acts, it interferes with the Subconscious, which is Hadit. It is the voice of Man, and not of a God. Any man who 'listens to reason' ceases to be a revolutionary." [4]

Again, to express one's Will in terms of reason is to assert a limit. This is because of the inherently dualistic nature of not only logic & reason but language & thought themselves. To do this would be to drive a cleft into one's being, fracturing it into multiplicity.

"Thoughts are false." [5]

To experience and manifest one's pure Will, one must not act out of notions of purpose nor out of desire for some pre-formed result or outcome. [6] Both of these things are manifestations of the dualistic mind and restrict one unnecessarily to the trappings of logic. The Will can only be the genuine and spontaneous manifestation of one's inmost nature, the united whole of one's being.

Since "the word of Sin is Restriction," [7] the Will is certainly not deduced from the workings of the mind which, by its very nature, asserts division & separation and therefore restriction. When we clear away the morass of morality and the over-contemplated categories of metaphysics, the Will may more easily spring forward uninhibited.

"In logic there is a trace of effort and pain; logic is self-conscious. So is ethics, which is the application of logic to the facts of life... Life is an art, and like perfect art it should be self-forgetting; there ought not to be any trace of effort or painful feeling. Life... ought to be lived as a bird flies through the air or as a fish swims in the water. As soon as there are signs of elaboration, a man is doomed, he is no more a free being. You are not living as you ought to live, you are suffering under the tyranny of circumstances; you are feeling a constract of some sort, and you lose your independence... Not to be bound by rules, but to be creating one's own rules..." [8]

And this last point is important because Thelema is not illogical in that it wishes reason to be entirely abolished, but rather it wishes that it be put in its rightful place, under the governance of the Will. The mind is a harsh master and a good mistress, for once one realizes that one's Will is not amenable to the dualisms of thought, once freed from one's earlier bonds of logic, one may again employ reason to one's benefit in those circumstances that call for it.

"It is not the object... to look illogical for its own sake, but to make people know that logical consistency is not final, and that there is a certain transcendental statement that cannot be attained by mere intellectual cleverness... When we say 'yes,' we assert, and by asserting we limit ourselves. When we say 'no,' we deny, and to deny is exclusion. Exclusion and limitation, which after all are the same thing, murder the soul; for is it not the life of the soul that lives in perfect freedom and in perfect unity? There is no freedom or unity... in exclusion or in limitation." [9]

Here - outside logical dualisms, outside notions of ethics, purpose, and metaphysics - the Will can be known. This knowledge is not that of the mind which asserts duality - a knower and a thing known - but the experiential knowledge, the gnosis, of immersion in the flow of the world. Here the Eternal Will runs through oneself, is oneself, for "...mind, never at ease, creaketh "I". / This I persisteth not, posteth not through generations, changeth momently, finally is dead. / Therefore is man only himself when lost to himself in The Charioting." [10] Therefore, one 'knows' one's Will in doing one's Will. The Will that is not restricted by mental formulations springs freely from one's innermost Self, crowned & conquering.

"Life is fact and no explanation is necessary or pertinent. To explain is to apologize, and why should we apologize for living? To live - is that not enough? Let us then live!" [11]


References

[1] Lao Tsu, Tao Teh Ching, ch.1
[2] Liber AL vel Legis, II:27
[3] Aleister Crowley, The Law is For All, commentary to II:31
[4] Aleister Crowley, The Law is For All, commentary to II:30-31
[5] Aleister Crowley, The Book of Lies, ch.5
[6] A reference to Liber AL vel Legis, I:44, "For pure will, unassuaged of purpose, delivered from the lust of result, is every way perfect."
[7] Liber AL vel Legis, I:41
[8] D.T. Suzuki, Intro to Zen Buddhism, p.34
[9] D.T. Suzuki, Intro to Zen Buddhism, p.37
[10] Aleister Crowley, The Book of Lies, ch.8
[11] D.T. Suzuki, Intro to Zen Buddhism, p.41

BTW, this essay is in Volume 2, Number 1 of the Journal of Thelemic Studies

IAO131

[IAO131]

93,

In short: Theoretically, free will does not exist but practically we must work with the illusion or appearance of free will - and in fact it gives us a sense of independence and autonomy which is quite valuabke.

IAO131