An Experiment in Divination
I have, through methods I will divulge at a later time, stumbled upon an insight into the innermost nature of one of the members of this forum.
What I am currently interested in, is whether or not I have been accurate enough that the person can tell that I'm talking about them, without my calling them by name.
Through my undisclosed method, I have seen that you have a need for other people to like and admire you, and yet you tend to be critical of yourself. While you have some personality weaknesses you are generally able to compensate for them. You have considerable unused capacity that you have not turned to your advantage. Disciplined and self-controlled on the outside, you tend to be worrisome and insecure on the inside. At times you have serious doubts as to whether you have made the right decision or done the right thing. You prefer a certain amount of change and variety and become dissatisfied when hemmed in by restrictions and limitations. You also pride yourself as an independent thinker; and do not accept others' statements without satisfactory proof. But you have found it unwise to be too frank in revealing yourself to others. At times you are extroverted, affable, and sociable, while at other times you are introverted, wary, and reserved. Some of your aspirations tend to be rather unrealistic.
So don't be shy, if I've hit the nail on the head, say so! so I can figure out if I know what I'm doing here hehe. If the person I'm talking about says 'yeah, that sounds like me', then I'll know it works. But I want them to decide that on their own, without me calling them by name... I don't want the power of suggestion to taint the result. It could describe more than one person on the forum to some extent, so its ok if more than one person thinks it is them. Also, its possible that i'm only 'mostly right' and that I may have made an error in some small aspect. So even if its not a perfect match, if you feel that it's about you, say so. And let me know exactly how much (like say 1-10) you think it applies to you.
anyway, anxiously awaiting your reply...
Kate
Edit by Zelos-You somehow killed your topic Kath, had to put a new one up.
Experiment in Divination
Experiment in Divination
‘????????? -
?? ????Audaces fortuna iuvat
?Experiment in Divination
Ok, just to double up on this test, to ensure the best possible results, i've used it again, to gain insight into another member of the forum. So now there are two of you out there who i am specifically talking about.
I've seen (again through my undisclosed method) that you often try to leave an impression on your surroundings that you are stern and rigid, while you are actually an emotional and vulnerable person. Sometimes you are bright, communicative and social, but you can turn into yourself, and in those times it is hard for people around you to reach your thoughts. You live changes and dynamic, and lack of freedom can make you discontent, even melancholic and depressive. You know that you are a person that has an attitude and you don’t take random opinions without hard evidence. You have an amazing ability to understand people who surround you and who you love. You also have a well-developed sense for rightfulness, and it is hardest for you to accept human greed and a lack of feeling for others. In your love life you had lesser problems. Still, aside for a few weaknesses, your inner strength provided you with means to successfully diminish them. You are often expressing criticism about yourself, even more than it is necessary. The main cause is that you have a strong need to be accepted and loved, and you turn too strict when it comes to your character. You are aware that you hold significant potential that you still haven’t completely put to work because of your reticence and insecurity. Soon you will learn how to put your abilities to full use.
So if this strikes you as 'you', please respond and specify that you're responding to test 2, while the person responding to the post above should specify they are responding to test 1. ok?
thanks in advance for any and all help on this experiment.
I've seen (again through my undisclosed method) that you often try to leave an impression on your surroundings that you are stern and rigid, while you are actually an emotional and vulnerable person. Sometimes you are bright, communicative and social, but you can turn into yourself, and in those times it is hard for people around you to reach your thoughts. You live changes and dynamic, and lack of freedom can make you discontent, even melancholic and depressive. You know that you are a person that has an attitude and you don’t take random opinions without hard evidence. You have an amazing ability to understand people who surround you and who you love. You also have a well-developed sense for rightfulness, and it is hardest for you to accept human greed and a lack of feeling for others. In your love life you had lesser problems. Still, aside for a few weaknesses, your inner strength provided you with means to successfully diminish them. You are often expressing criticism about yourself, even more than it is necessary. The main cause is that you have a strong need to be accepted and loved, and you turn too strict when it comes to your character. You are aware that you hold significant potential that you still haven’t completely put to work because of your reticence and insecurity. Soon you will learn how to put your abilities to full use.
So if this strikes you as 'you', please respond and specify that you're responding to test 2, while the person responding to the post above should specify they are responding to test 1. ok?
thanks in advance for any and all help on this experiment.
‘????????? -
?? ????Audaces fortuna iuvat
?-
ZoboTheClown
- Neophyte
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2009 11:11 pm
Experiment in Divination
Hrmmm....
Isn't that just cold reading... those are vague and could apply to just about anyone...
Not really hard to have a hit with that, sorry...
Isn't that just cold reading... those are vague and could apply to just about anyone...
Not really hard to have a hit with that, sorry...
Experiment in Divination
I'll go ahead & come clean. I don't really like playing trickster. And Zobo, you've kinda pulled the plug on things by pointing out that they could describe just about anyone, and obviously they can.
My intent was to look at how those interested in divination would react to statements which have been scientifically designed to tell you almost nothing, but make you feel like they do. So as to illustrate something about how the mind interprets such material. If anyone feels deceived, I do apologize. The end intent was to shed light into the dark, not to deceive.
its more than a cold reading. well, there's much more point to it anyway. Its some texts which have been used to prove Personal Validation Fallacy, or the Forer Effect, in psychology. They're not divination at all. You can give either of these to 100 people, tell them each that their copy is personalized specifically for them, based on anything, stars, food preferences, personality tests, whatever. and a vast majority of people will rate them as 'highly accurate'. even though it involves no testing or divination or any other method at all, other than playing off of the nature of human psychology.
I received a couple PM's based on this thread, but overall participation has been minimal, so i haven't been able to do with it what I had hoped. Still I have had 2 people respond in as many days, saying "yeah, that's me". that's 2 people who both felt that way, AND felt cooperative enough to bother to tell me so (meaning there may have been more who felt that way), all out of about 25 views of this topic. In controlled study environments, people tended to rate statements such as the above to be about 85% accurate, in the sense of describing them individually. even though they describe no one individually.
The point of it all is this... that a great deal of what passes for divination, is actually just the personal validation fallacy at work. You could take 13 descriptions of the different astrology signs, deliberately mismatch the description & the sign, and people would still feel like the astrology really captures the essence of their personality traits. But what does that really mean? I did that for a paper in psychology. Of those who stated at the begining of the test, that they believed in astrology, 95% felt the mismatched personality profiles were accurate, which was almost identical to the control group who got correctly matched personality profiles. of those who stated at the begining that they firmly disbelieve in astrology, they rated both the correctly matched and mismatched profiles are less than 30% accurate. Which could be expected, but the point is, that whether the descriptions were correctly matched or not had zero effect on how accurate people felt they were. Actually the mismatched profiles did slightly better than the correctly matched ones, in terms of reported accuracy. Meanwhile the only thing which seemed to differentiate accurate from inaccurate was the beliefs of the person prior to being handed anything.
its based on subjective validation. Subjective validation occurs when two unrelated or even random events are perceived to be related because a belief, expectancy, or hypothesis demands a relationship. Thus people seek a correspondence between their perception of their personality and the contents of a horoscope.
Forer explained the effect thusly: People tend to accept claims about themselves in proportion to their desire that the claims be true rather than in proportion to the empirical accuracy of the claims as measured by some non-subjective standard. We tend to accept questionable, even false statements about ourselves, if we deem them positive or flattering enough. We will often give very liberal interpretations to vague or inconsistent claims about ourselves in order to make sense out of the claims.
The target of this research was psychics, horoscopes, etc. as well as some forms of personality tests used in psychology.
Now the real question... when is a 'reading' NOT cold? The above was some pretty obviously cold reading material. What about material which uses some rudimentary knowledge about the subject? At exactly what point does a reading shift from 'subtly cold' to actual 'divination'? And can a person easily tell the difference?
Skeptics bring this issue up extensively, and for good reason. As someone with several forms of psychic ability myself, I know first hand that there is more to the story than what the skeptics say. But unfortunately, I think the skeptics are *right* more often than not.
I don't think that tarot or astrology or any other form of divination is impossible. But I think a great deal of what passes for 'genuine' divination, isn't.
I offer my views on this to perhaps share understanding & knowledge with others. But I'm not a raving skeptic, I have dreams which come true, i've read peoples' minds, I'm intimate with an incorporeal being... I'm not just being critical, because i have NO room to talk. And I am kinda hoping that I'm missing some things, and that others will take it upon themselves to illuminate me in any misconceptions I may have. Its not all about what I think, it just about what makes sense. so if you feel i'm looking at it wrong, then make sense back at me!
So my question is, how do you know when you've got actual divination on your hands? I had a psychic I met in a nightclub once tell me some pretty generic cold reading stuff, and then told me my birthday accurately. That kinda got my attention since she had a 1 in 365 chance of getting that right, and she didn't seem unsure at all. How much of the other more generic cold reading stuff was generic & cold? how do you tell the difference?
So far, the only standard I can think of is when explicit claims are made, which could not have been easily guessed at. And even then, does that mean that *all* of the rest of the content is equally inspired?
Personally I have avoided tarot & astrology in my occult path(s), because most every example I can find is seeped in material which reads rather similar to the first couple posts in this thread. I *know* that a person *can* arrive at genuine divinatory information via many means, including tarot. And I know that things such as a full moon seem to affect human behavior, through no apparent or known mechanism. So its not that I don't think that tarot or astrology have potential. Its more just that as occult fields, they're massively overrun with people exploiting personal validation fallacy, sometimes without even realizing thats what they are doing. Its a very defensive setting, where skepticism is not a very good way to win any popularity contests. And so without healthy skepticism, things seem to run amok, at least from my perspective.
So, if we were to approach tarot/astrology/other with a critical yet openminded eye, and we were to check all the cold reading, flowery speech, new age catchphrases & slogans, etc. at the door. How would we approach these fields objectively then? would there be enough left over after dropping the pretenses & showmanship at the door to make much of it? why or why not? does anyone know of any writers or prominent practicioners who approach these topics with complete seriousness and a genuine distaste for vagueness & pandering to psychological weaknesses?
In my magick, I could offer several different explanations of how it would or could work. I know the who-what-why of it, there's no overwhelming sense of vagueness or wishful thinking. I'm self critical in my working methods & results, I try to be vigilant vs. both personal bias and observer bias in interpreting what I'm doing. I'm really not a fan of 'blind faith', in any way shape or form. but when i look towards divination, i see a great deal of 'unfounded belief'. People get annoyed if you ask 'why' or 'how' too much. Which are things I am *constantly* asking myself in my own magick practices. So I just get a sense that I'm not dealing with people with the same approach, priorities, etc.
I ask as someone interested, someone openminded to the potential, but someone who is greatly turned off by the apparent lack of sincerity and honesty (including inward honesty) in these fields. I'm more interested in validity than being sociable. Am I alone in having an interest mixed with a distaste for what I see at a glance?
Do you believe in or practice tarot or astrology?
why or why not?
how would you say it works, if you think it does?
what percentage of the divination community at large would you say is accurate/valid?
while its not hard to swallow that an object which makes our oceans rise & fall could affect human behavior in a fairly general way... how do you justify the idea that incredibly distant points of light, trillions upon trillions of miles away, have a bearing on whether or not you should go on a date with someone on tuesday?
if a person did 15 tarot readings a day, how much of the time would there be 'divination content' in these workings? (as apposed to vague content, requiring the reader to 'reach' for ways to tie it all together)
What is the purpose of astrology?
What is the purpose of tarot?
What is the purpose of divination in general?
My intent was to look at how those interested in divination would react to statements which have been scientifically designed to tell you almost nothing, but make you feel like they do. So as to illustrate something about how the mind interprets such material. If anyone feels deceived, I do apologize. The end intent was to shed light into the dark, not to deceive.
its more than a cold reading. well, there's much more point to it anyway. Its some texts which have been used to prove Personal Validation Fallacy, or the Forer Effect, in psychology. They're not divination at all. You can give either of these to 100 people, tell them each that their copy is personalized specifically for them, based on anything, stars, food preferences, personality tests, whatever. and a vast majority of people will rate them as 'highly accurate'. even though it involves no testing or divination or any other method at all, other than playing off of the nature of human psychology.
I received a couple PM's based on this thread, but overall participation has been minimal, so i haven't been able to do with it what I had hoped. Still I have had 2 people respond in as many days, saying "yeah, that's me". that's 2 people who both felt that way, AND felt cooperative enough to bother to tell me so (meaning there may have been more who felt that way), all out of about 25 views of this topic. In controlled study environments, people tended to rate statements such as the above to be about 85% accurate, in the sense of describing them individually. even though they describe no one individually.
The point of it all is this... that a great deal of what passes for divination, is actually just the personal validation fallacy at work. You could take 13 descriptions of the different astrology signs, deliberately mismatch the description & the sign, and people would still feel like the astrology really captures the essence of their personality traits. But what does that really mean? I did that for a paper in psychology. Of those who stated at the begining of the test, that they believed in astrology, 95% felt the mismatched personality profiles were accurate, which was almost identical to the control group who got correctly matched personality profiles. of those who stated at the begining that they firmly disbelieve in astrology, they rated both the correctly matched and mismatched profiles are less than 30% accurate. Which could be expected, but the point is, that whether the descriptions were correctly matched or not had zero effect on how accurate people felt they were. Actually the mismatched profiles did slightly better than the correctly matched ones, in terms of reported accuracy. Meanwhile the only thing which seemed to differentiate accurate from inaccurate was the beliefs of the person prior to being handed anything.
its based on subjective validation. Subjective validation occurs when two unrelated or even random events are perceived to be related because a belief, expectancy, or hypothesis demands a relationship. Thus people seek a correspondence between their perception of their personality and the contents of a horoscope.
Forer explained the effect thusly: People tend to accept claims about themselves in proportion to their desire that the claims be true rather than in proportion to the empirical accuracy of the claims as measured by some non-subjective standard. We tend to accept questionable, even false statements about ourselves, if we deem them positive or flattering enough. We will often give very liberal interpretations to vague or inconsistent claims about ourselves in order to make sense out of the claims.
The target of this research was psychics, horoscopes, etc. as well as some forms of personality tests used in psychology.
Now the real question... when is a 'reading' NOT cold? The above was some pretty obviously cold reading material. What about material which uses some rudimentary knowledge about the subject? At exactly what point does a reading shift from 'subtly cold' to actual 'divination'? And can a person easily tell the difference?
Skeptics bring this issue up extensively, and for good reason. As someone with several forms of psychic ability myself, I know first hand that there is more to the story than what the skeptics say. But unfortunately, I think the skeptics are *right* more often than not.
I don't think that tarot or astrology or any other form of divination is impossible. But I think a great deal of what passes for 'genuine' divination, isn't.
I offer my views on this to perhaps share understanding & knowledge with others. But I'm not a raving skeptic, I have dreams which come true, i've read peoples' minds, I'm intimate with an incorporeal being... I'm not just being critical, because i have NO room to talk. And I am kinda hoping that I'm missing some things, and that others will take it upon themselves to illuminate me in any misconceptions I may have. Its not all about what I think, it just about what makes sense. so if you feel i'm looking at it wrong, then make sense back at me!
So my question is, how do you know when you've got actual divination on your hands? I had a psychic I met in a nightclub once tell me some pretty generic cold reading stuff, and then told me my birthday accurately. That kinda got my attention since she had a 1 in 365 chance of getting that right, and she didn't seem unsure at all. How much of the other more generic cold reading stuff was generic & cold? how do you tell the difference?
So far, the only standard I can think of is when explicit claims are made, which could not have been easily guessed at. And even then, does that mean that *all* of the rest of the content is equally inspired?
Personally I have avoided tarot & astrology in my occult path(s), because most every example I can find is seeped in material which reads rather similar to the first couple posts in this thread. I *know* that a person *can* arrive at genuine divinatory information via many means, including tarot. And I know that things such as a full moon seem to affect human behavior, through no apparent or known mechanism. So its not that I don't think that tarot or astrology have potential. Its more just that as occult fields, they're massively overrun with people exploiting personal validation fallacy, sometimes without even realizing thats what they are doing. Its a very defensive setting, where skepticism is not a very good way to win any popularity contests. And so without healthy skepticism, things seem to run amok, at least from my perspective.
So, if we were to approach tarot/astrology/other with a critical yet openminded eye, and we were to check all the cold reading, flowery speech, new age catchphrases & slogans, etc. at the door. How would we approach these fields objectively then? would there be enough left over after dropping the pretenses & showmanship at the door to make much of it? why or why not? does anyone know of any writers or prominent practicioners who approach these topics with complete seriousness and a genuine distaste for vagueness & pandering to psychological weaknesses?
In my magick, I could offer several different explanations of how it would or could work. I know the who-what-why of it, there's no overwhelming sense of vagueness or wishful thinking. I'm self critical in my working methods & results, I try to be vigilant vs. both personal bias and observer bias in interpreting what I'm doing. I'm really not a fan of 'blind faith', in any way shape or form. but when i look towards divination, i see a great deal of 'unfounded belief'. People get annoyed if you ask 'why' or 'how' too much. Which are things I am *constantly* asking myself in my own magick practices. So I just get a sense that I'm not dealing with people with the same approach, priorities, etc.
I ask as someone interested, someone openminded to the potential, but someone who is greatly turned off by the apparent lack of sincerity and honesty (including inward honesty) in these fields. I'm more interested in validity than being sociable. Am I alone in having an interest mixed with a distaste for what I see at a glance?
Do you believe in or practice tarot or astrology?
why or why not?
how would you say it works, if you think it does?
what percentage of the divination community at large would you say is accurate/valid?
while its not hard to swallow that an object which makes our oceans rise & fall could affect human behavior in a fairly general way... how do you justify the idea that incredibly distant points of light, trillions upon trillions of miles away, have a bearing on whether or not you should go on a date with someone on tuesday?
if a person did 15 tarot readings a day, how much of the time would there be 'divination content' in these workings? (as apposed to vague content, requiring the reader to 'reach' for ways to tie it all together)
What is the purpose of astrology?
What is the purpose of tarot?
What is the purpose of divination in general?
‘????????? -
?? ????Audaces fortuna iuvat
?
Experiment in Divination
Are we a psyche-major?Kath wrote:Ok, just to double up on this test, to ensure the best possible results, i've used it again, to gain insight into another member of the forum. So now there are two of you out there who i am specifically talking about.
I've seen (again through my undisclosed method) that you often try to leave an impression on your surroundings that you are stern and rigid, while you are actually an emotional and vulnerable person. Sometimes you are bright, communicative and social, but you can turn into yourself, and in those times it is hard for people around you to reach your thoughts. You live changes and dynamic, and lack of freedom can make you discontent, even melancholic and depressive. You know that you are a person that has an attitude and you don’t take random opinions without hard evidence. You have an amazing ability to understand people who surround you and who you love. You also have a well-developed sense for rightfulness, and it is hardest for you to accept human greed and a lack of feeling for others. In your love life you had lesser problems. Still, aside for a few weaknesses, your inner strength provided you with means to successfully diminish them. You are often expressing criticism about yourself, even more than it is necessary. The main cause is that you have a strong need to be accepted and loved, and you turn too strict when it comes to your character. You are aware that you hold significant potential that you still haven’t completely put to work because of your reticence and insecurity. Soon you will learn how to put your abilities to full use.
So if this strikes you as 'you', please respond and specify that you're responding to test 2, while the person responding to the post above should specify they are responding to test 1. ok?
thanks in advance for any and all help on this experiment.
These are the same personality issues, stated in both, but with variation in the "Introversion/Extroversion" self-examination.
What's Up?
Experiment in Divination
Interesting. To be fair, I did see myself in parts of the first reading... but there were other parts that were so far off it made me go, "Am I really that way?... Of course not." And, the second reading, as ZobotheClown said, was incredibly similar to it.
As you touched on, divinatory (is that a word?) results can be obtained from using -anything-. It has absolutely nothing to do what is being used, and only about the internal mechanism that makes it possible. If someone thinks that divination is bullshit, then they can divine using bull poop.
That being said, I don't know too many people who I would consider authentic "diviners" or "prophets" apart from dabbling in areas such as the tarot, or doing little card readings for money. This does bring up the point though... aren't most tarot readings very similar to what you've just satirically done? "You will have great misfortune with a lover in the near future!" What's the "near future"? What's a "misfortune"? Who qualifies as a "lover?" I can see how these readings are so vague that you would be hard pressed to find someone who does not inevitably find themselves in such a situation in the next 5 years.
Interesting.
As you touched on, divinatory (is that a word?) results can be obtained from using -anything-. It has absolutely nothing to do what is being used, and only about the internal mechanism that makes it possible. If someone thinks that divination is bullshit, then they can divine using bull poop.
That being said, I don't know too many people who I would consider authentic "diviners" or "prophets" apart from dabbling in areas such as the tarot, or doing little card readings for money. This does bring up the point though... aren't most tarot readings very similar to what you've just satirically done? "You will have great misfortune with a lover in the near future!" What's the "near future"? What's a "misfortune"? Who qualifies as a "lover?" I can see how these readings are so vague that you would be hard pressed to find someone who does not inevitably find themselves in such a situation in the next 5 years.
Interesting.
Experiment in Divination
psyche minor. I didn't write them, they come directly from tests involving Personal Validation Fallacy. (read my last post above post #4Azzerac wrote:These are the same personality issues, stated in both, but with variation in the "Introversion/Extroversion" self-examination.
What's Up?
)Basically a lot of people go through a lot of very similar crap, at least on the vaguest possible level. So if you leave enough room, by being 'non-explicit' for people to relate their own issues, experiences, insecurities, etc. to what you're saying, then they will, and they'll tend to feel that your statements are very personal, even though they are not at all.
‘????????? -
?? ????Audaces fortuna iuvat
?-
hungariandabbler
- Neophyte
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 1:45 am
Experiment in Divination
Kath, I read through your OP and I found it consisting exclusively of what linguistics - specifically NLP - calls Ericksonian patterns. Nice experiment. Generalities fine-tuned (in simpler English) - they teach this skill to therapists, marketing people and politicians. However, I have 4 professions and among them one is - vedic astrologer! In that, I, as an NLP master practicioner, am aware of NLP patterns. Try to avoid them actually. Or just give clients real choices. In astrology, I can see cases where you have to tell your client that their dad was probably an alcoholic, or that he died when they were about 12, and maybe their mother lost another child etc. In yet other cases I had to find out (with the help of Indian books) that someone's roof was bad, not the foundation, when they were renovating a house two years back. Yet again, I read in an ancient book about a woman that was standing in front of me that she must have a mole on her left hip on her back. She proceeded to show me... So, there ARE people who use and learn - at least Eastern - astrology honestly, I think. Also, the very first time I saw an Indian astrologer (jyotishi) in D.C. in 90, he told me that I had left my birth country in the fall of 84. It was October 24, 1984 actually.
So? Maybe Western tropical astrology has gone over to psychologising around generalities in some cases, but you certainly cannot say that about jyotish if you do your research for your paper. Also, Israel Regardie advocated sidereal astrology already in the beginning part of the 20th century - which is the different zodiac Hindus also use.
You may be interested in Grinder and Bandler's work on the hypnotic patterns of Milton Erickson.
Respectfully yours:
Hungariandabbler
So? Maybe Western tropical astrology has gone over to psychologising around generalities in some cases, but you certainly cannot say that about jyotish if you do your research for your paper. Also, Israel Regardie advocated sidereal astrology already in the beginning part of the 20th century - which is the different zodiac Hindus also use.
You may be interested in Grinder and Bandler's work on the hypnotic patterns of Milton Erickson.
Respectfully yours:
Hungariandabbler
Experiment in Divination
*laughs* very good. To add to your research, 1 and 2. *chuckles* But yes, it is a very interesting question. I myself have divined exact encounters with the supernatural people have had (but it's an extremely erratic ability, and if I'm uncertain, I say nothing), but yes, you have to worry about things like that with divination, or indeed any "principle"
*grins* I do believe in Tarot, but not as a "this is your future", more as a "you connect the dots yourself, and I'm helping you see what you already want to see, and set your mind thinking about how to deal with it". Hell, I tell anyone I do a reading for something similar to that, and they don't seem to walk away disappointed. Astrology, however, I laugh at.
*grins* I do believe in Tarot, but not as a "this is your future", more as a "you connect the dots yourself, and I'm helping you see what you already want to see, and set your mind thinking about how to deal with it". Hell, I tell anyone I do a reading for something similar to that, and they don't seem to walk away disappointed. Astrology, however, I laugh at.
-
hungariandabbler
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- Posts: 8
- Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 1:45 am
Experiment in Divination
I laugh at economics - it simply does not qualify for a science from a logical-linguistic point of view.
At least, much less than astrology or sociology.
I think the narrative of most modern Western astrologers is insufferable and their content varies - usually starting from the obvious and sometimes reaching a shallow amount of prediction.
(Anyone reading this, let us get out of simplistic inquiries in logic and philosophy - namely whether anything is/can be predetermined is quite a beginner's question I asked myself when I was a 20-year-old philosophy major who just read his first translation of Plato... it is simply not worthy of the other contents of this web site. The question of predetermination can be shown to originate in the dogmatic beliefs of medieval Catholics. So don't be proud if you are older and still cannot work out something that is solved so much simpler in cultures older than ours. The next thing - we are going to discuss the Secret?)
(Just one illustration to the general topic: I had dreamed of the two planes hitting the WTC already in 94 when I lived in VA. At the time I dismissed it as a tabloid-type phantasy... it was damn unlikely. So one thing is sure: people DO get advance knowledge of things that WILL happen later on...)
hungariandabbler (bela lugosi in disguise)
At least, much less than astrology or sociology.
I think the narrative of most modern Western astrologers is insufferable and their content varies - usually starting from the obvious and sometimes reaching a shallow amount of prediction.
(Anyone reading this, let us get out of simplistic inquiries in logic and philosophy - namely whether anything is/can be predetermined is quite a beginner's question I asked myself when I was a 20-year-old philosophy major who just read his first translation of Plato... it is simply not worthy of the other contents of this web site. The question of predetermination can be shown to originate in the dogmatic beliefs of medieval Catholics. So don't be proud if you are older and still cannot work out something that is solved so much simpler in cultures older than ours. The next thing - we are going to discuss the Secret?)
(Just one illustration to the general topic: I had dreamed of the two planes hitting the WTC already in 94 when I lived in VA. At the time I dismissed it as a tabloid-type phantasy... it was damn unlikely. So one thing is sure: people DO get advance knowledge of things that WILL happen later on...)
hungariandabbler (bela lugosi in disguise)
Experiment in Divination
Thank you for thinking I'm young enough to still be in college writing a paper 
but I finished that paper on personal validation fallacy long long ago. What I wrote for that paper though, was a study into the psychological issues at play in fortune telling & astrology, from a skeptic's point of view. I didn't, in the paper, discuss the issue of whether precognition was possible. Instead I just discussed the psychic marketplace and the human mind (such that it is).
personally I don't laugh at economics, well I do, but only because one has to keep a sense of humor to stay sane, no? And the issue of consciousness, time, predetermination, and free will, is not a simple one, certainly it is a multifaceted concept which has no definitive answers in science or philosophy in any age. I have my own theories & understandings of these matters, based on my own experiments, and on the input of beings more 'in the know' than I. But, i could go on for hours on that topic, and it'd be a little off topic
As someone with several different forms of recurrent precognitive experiences, I can personally vouch for the validity of the human mind's capacity to foresee events, sometimes randomly, sometimes in more purposeful circumstances, and through a fairly wide variety of methods/experiences.
So I KNOW that a person can know something about the future. Its happened to me myself often enough that I've quit looking for swamp gas reflecting off a weather balloon, and just accepted it as fact.
What vexes me, is that in turning towards 'seers', looking for answers, I found a great deal of fakery, commercialism, and self delusion, instead of answers. The psychic/fortune/medium/astrology trade seems inundated with the use of the personal validation fallacy to such a deep extent, that even people who I know first had to really be genuinely psychic, spend a large chunk of their time talking in psychobable like I wrote in my first two posts here. And that doesn't begin to even touch on the celebrity types who've been caught using various scam tactics. Like John Edwards wiring the area where people are waiting to come onto the set of his show, listening in on what they talk about before the show, just for example.
Which has led me to a suspicion. In an old x-files episode, there was a little girl who could heal people, and in the plot, she really could. But as she put it, "not even babe ruth hits a home run every time he was up to bat", so the church she was faith healing for would fabricate a lot of 'fake' healings, etc. to bolster their image & such. I forget how that episode ended or why mulder & scully were involved. But anyway, the point is, do people who are genuinely psychic, fill in gaps in their legitimate ability, with cold reading mystic mumbo jumbo? Is that even a majority? or is the majority *Just* marketing fortune telling "validity be damned"? Or am I being too cynical? and can you defend that assertion?
Personally, in my own precognition, I get ZERO content which is not from a 'first hand' perspective. In other words, if I glimpse the future, like say next saturday afternoon, then I'll have no f'n clue what you or anybody else will be doing next saturday afternoon, unless you happen by chance to actually be in my company, within my visual field of view, at the relevant time of the precognitive perception. I other words, I've found it utterly useless regarding anybody else's future, unless they plan to move in with me just to make a cameo in my next precognitive perception. So the fact that I *never* get any precognitive content about anybody else, leads me in a somewhat skeptical direction regarding the psychic trade itself. BUT, I recognize that this may be presumptuous. I can't say that just because I've only ever driven cars, that pickup trucks don't exist, eh? but it makes me wonder.
__
I can see tarot as a sort of 'mind jog' to facilitate a more 'internal' divination experience... but if this were the case, then monopoly 'chance' cards could do that, or just listening to random songs on the radio, etc. So in saying that tarot is just "a feather in the seer's hat", it opens up the issue of "why tarot then?" why not any of a hundred other things which could jog the mind into thoughtful shifts in brainwave state?
I have had 1 (yeah, just one) detailed tarot reading done of/for me. I don't own any tarot cards myself. I found it to be surprisingly accurate, but it didn't really define anything which I'd call "new info". It just laid out a fairly 'easy to interpret' general listing of influences in my life, past, present & near future. In other words, i could have told you everything in the tarot reading without a tarot reading. But I was surprised that none of the cards required any 'stretching' of the imagination to interpret as 'fitting' my circumstances.
I dunno guys. I was kinda impressed that it wasn't more of an awkward stretch to make the cards fit my life circumstances. but I was also unimpressed that my friend didn't come up with any information that we didn't both already basically know. In the end I gotta say that I'm not real impressed with tarot. of course I base that on such vast experience... not. But I can admit that perhaps more experience is needed to appreciate it? I dunno. I'm pretty good at ignoring the great & powerful oz & zeroing in on the man behind the curtain pulling the levers... which makes me suspect I wouldn't get much out of tarot if I did invest more time in the subject. What do you think? second opinions?
__
on the subject of divinations like tarot, I have to say that I-ching is kinda interesting. Though really I would almost view that as "brainstorming stimulation", useful when pondering something, or problem solving, rather than genuine divination. I've seen it used that way anyway. similar to my comments 3 paragraphs up about tarot. or am I way off base? I know less about i-ching than I do about tarot, to be fair.
__
And astrology... I can show you that the lunar cycles affect human behavior. Obviously the solar cycles do too. But in the moon's case, it's gravitational force is moving the oceans, it's determining if night time will be pitch or light enough to read by moonlight, it has measurable physical effects on earth here. and the solar cycle, well, day & night... need I really explain how this affects human behavior? And I could also see, how being born at different times of the year might affect a person's psychological development, based on seasonal changes... of course that would mean that every different world climate should have different birthdate profiling, but on principal, the idea is rationally workable.
BUT, what does the path of a distant body like say Saturn, which has no gravitational effect on us, and is just a tiny pinpoint of light in the sky, moving across the backdrop of some stars which are millions of times still further away... have to do with whether I should keep my eye open for a possible new courtship next tuesday?
this hurts brain.
__
Anyway, its not my intent to belittle anyone's practices or beliefs. I'm being challenging in the sincere hope that someone will challenge the things I'm bringing up. I'd like to see rebuttal. My view of the field of divination in the occult & new age, is kinda depressing honestly. Some really cogent thought provoking counter argument would kinda be a relief, cuz I kinda feel like I'm going around school telling everyone that there is no santa clause. which isn't a pretty truth, but then i don't let aesthetics or social considerations sleep with my sense of truth.
But I am *not* trying to pick a fight or win an argument, just open a challenging dialog.
At any rate, as things stand now, I never tell anyone I'm "psychic" (even though I could be called "psychic" for any of a dozen different reasons) because I don't want anyone to get confused and think that just because i'm "psychic"(adjective), that I am "A Psychic"(noun).
but I finished that paper on personal validation fallacy long long ago. What I wrote for that paper though, was a study into the psychological issues at play in fortune telling & astrology, from a skeptic's point of view. I didn't, in the paper, discuss the issue of whether precognition was possible. Instead I just discussed the psychic marketplace and the human mind (such that it is).personally I don't laugh at economics, well I do, but only because one has to keep a sense of humor to stay sane, no? And the issue of consciousness, time, predetermination, and free will, is not a simple one, certainly it is a multifaceted concept which has no definitive answers in science or philosophy in any age. I have my own theories & understandings of these matters, based on my own experiments, and on the input of beings more 'in the know' than I. But, i could go on for hours on that topic, and it'd be a little off topic
This I STRONGLY agree with. You wouldn't know it from reading my college paper, but there is a reason I focused on fortune telling, professional psychics, and astrologers, and NOT on the issue of the validity of precognitive experience/perception itself.hungariandabbler wrote:So one thing is sure: people DO get advance knowledge of things that WILL happen later on...)
As someone with several different forms of recurrent precognitive experiences, I can personally vouch for the validity of the human mind's capacity to foresee events, sometimes randomly, sometimes in more purposeful circumstances, and through a fairly wide variety of methods/experiences.
So I KNOW that a person can know something about the future. Its happened to me myself often enough that I've quit looking for swamp gas reflecting off a weather balloon, and just accepted it as fact.
What vexes me, is that in turning towards 'seers', looking for answers, I found a great deal of fakery, commercialism, and self delusion, instead of answers. The psychic/fortune/medium/astrology trade seems inundated with the use of the personal validation fallacy to such a deep extent, that even people who I know first had to really be genuinely psychic, spend a large chunk of their time talking in psychobable like I wrote in my first two posts here. And that doesn't begin to even touch on the celebrity types who've been caught using various scam tactics. Like John Edwards wiring the area where people are waiting to come onto the set of his show, listening in on what they talk about before the show, just for example.
Which has led me to a suspicion. In an old x-files episode, there was a little girl who could heal people, and in the plot, she really could. But as she put it, "not even babe ruth hits a home run every time he was up to bat", so the church she was faith healing for would fabricate a lot of 'fake' healings, etc. to bolster their image & such. I forget how that episode ended or why mulder & scully were involved. But anyway, the point is, do people who are genuinely psychic, fill in gaps in their legitimate ability, with cold reading mystic mumbo jumbo? Is that even a majority? or is the majority *Just* marketing fortune telling "validity be damned"? Or am I being too cynical? and can you defend that assertion?
Personally, in my own precognition, I get ZERO content which is not from a 'first hand' perspective. In other words, if I glimpse the future, like say next saturday afternoon, then I'll have no f'n clue what you or anybody else will be doing next saturday afternoon, unless you happen by chance to actually be in my company, within my visual field of view, at the relevant time of the precognitive perception. I other words, I've found it utterly useless regarding anybody else's future, unless they plan to move in with me just to make a cameo in my next precognitive perception. So the fact that I *never* get any precognitive content about anybody else, leads me in a somewhat skeptical direction regarding the psychic trade itself. BUT, I recognize that this may be presumptuous. I can't say that just because I've only ever driven cars, that pickup trucks don't exist, eh? but it makes me wonder.
__
I can see tarot as a sort of 'mind jog' to facilitate a more 'internal' divination experience... but if this were the case, then monopoly 'chance' cards could do that, or just listening to random songs on the radio, etc. So in saying that tarot is just "a feather in the seer's hat", it opens up the issue of "why tarot then?" why not any of a hundred other things which could jog the mind into thoughtful shifts in brainwave state?
I have had 1 (yeah, just one) detailed tarot reading done of/for me. I don't own any tarot cards myself. I found it to be surprisingly accurate, but it didn't really define anything which I'd call "new info". It just laid out a fairly 'easy to interpret' general listing of influences in my life, past, present & near future. In other words, i could have told you everything in the tarot reading without a tarot reading. But I was surprised that none of the cards required any 'stretching' of the imagination to interpret as 'fitting' my circumstances.
I dunno guys. I was kinda impressed that it wasn't more of an awkward stretch to make the cards fit my life circumstances. but I was also unimpressed that my friend didn't come up with any information that we didn't both already basically know. In the end I gotta say that I'm not real impressed with tarot. of course I base that on such vast experience... not. But I can admit that perhaps more experience is needed to appreciate it? I dunno. I'm pretty good at ignoring the great & powerful oz & zeroing in on the man behind the curtain pulling the levers... which makes me suspect I wouldn't get much out of tarot if I did invest more time in the subject. What do you think? second opinions?
__
on the subject of divinations like tarot, I have to say that I-ching is kinda interesting. Though really I would almost view that as "brainstorming stimulation", useful when pondering something, or problem solving, rather than genuine divination. I've seen it used that way anyway. similar to my comments 3 paragraphs up about tarot. or am I way off base? I know less about i-ching than I do about tarot, to be fair.
__
And astrology... I can show you that the lunar cycles affect human behavior. Obviously the solar cycles do too. But in the moon's case, it's gravitational force is moving the oceans, it's determining if night time will be pitch or light enough to read by moonlight, it has measurable physical effects on earth here. and the solar cycle, well, day & night... need I really explain how this affects human behavior? And I could also see, how being born at different times of the year might affect a person's psychological development, based on seasonal changes... of course that would mean that every different world climate should have different birthdate profiling, but on principal, the idea is rationally workable.
BUT, what does the path of a distant body like say Saturn, which has no gravitational effect on us, and is just a tiny pinpoint of light in the sky, moving across the backdrop of some stars which are millions of times still further away... have to do with whether I should keep my eye open for a possible new courtship next tuesday?
this hurts brain.
__
Anyway, its not my intent to belittle anyone's practices or beliefs. I'm being challenging in the sincere hope that someone will challenge the things I'm bringing up. I'd like to see rebuttal. My view of the field of divination in the occult & new age, is kinda depressing honestly. Some really cogent thought provoking counter argument would kinda be a relief, cuz I kinda feel like I'm going around school telling everyone that there is no santa clause. which isn't a pretty truth, but then i don't let aesthetics or social considerations sleep with my sense of truth.
But I am *not* trying to pick a fight or win an argument, just open a challenging dialog.
At any rate, as things stand now, I never tell anyone I'm "psychic" (even though I could be called "psychic" for any of a dozen different reasons) because I don't want anyone to get confused and think that just because i'm "psychic"(adjective), that I am "A Psychic"(noun).
‘????????? -
?? ????Audaces fortuna iuvat
?-
hungariandabbler
- Neophyte
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 1:45 am
Experiment in Divination
I wrote a long post but it disappeared... I agree with your views mostly. It is refreshing to find someone who tests experience and thinks about them and takes and gives challenges...
their output.
Philosophy: There are obviously so many gray areas between free will and predetermination. Reading Hitler's or Bundy's chart made me feel these people were simply playing parts. I could not say that about my grandmother. Glad that you have arrived at such a differentiated place of wondering. That is the beginning of true wisdom.
...On teh contrary, you may try to do tarot for yourself! If the principle that whoever is doing it affects the reading works, in this case, it watered it down, it may very well work the other way too!
Tools: Morphic resonance of tarot cards will bring a greater probability of something valuable than if you construct a system of say, Santa and Donald duck etc. as another poster remarked on CM. Rupert Sheldrake may interest you - although his language patterns are quite hypnotic. (We call these generalities you can insert your own specific contents into 'hypnotic patterns' in NLP). However, you COULD construct a valid system of divination based on say, rolling nine dice upon a giant Buddhist mandala or a GD layout - and go from there. Because the other principle I found in all divinatiton systems is that the core system that is the basis should be a more or less complete picture of the world, usually described by abstract nouns sometimes in pairs of opposites. Like, everything can be translated to (my kind) of astrology, that is just a desription of teh world, an archaic language.
Pluto is barely noticeable in gravity when seeing the Sun. But as an analogy, a virus is much smaller than your organs, yet it may be a significant factor in some parts of your life because it is pattern, not quantity that matters in this case.
Precog events: I still could not figure out how they happen. But sometimes they just happen to me. I am lucky if it is during astrological counseling...
Wishful thinking is another thing that can destroy a reading's accuracy. But believe me, what I am mostly concerned with are concrete facts such as "is her husband getting so abusive during the coming months that she has to divorce or will he try to forgive and make peace?" If you know the karmic framework of these people involved, you may know a direction of their choices. If not, or not enough, you can point to a time as omen: say, if the relationship got worse this March, I would not bet on it.
Astrologers may also have certain blind spots, types of people they cannot read well - and this can be partly explained by their own astrology.
I have yet to see two identical charts of any people. Plus, in Indian, you have several secondary charts and 27 lunar mansions, so it is a rarity. Twins are studied for that, but frequently they are like one person split. The theoretical problem would only arise if you try to chart the lives of twins four or higher. The edges fall out because there are different rules for elder and younger siblings. That is why four. Then seconds will count, sometimes minutes.
But twins of four rartely frequent astrologers. At least, I cannot recall such a case - though I did go to a twin festival once to astrologize. Only one non-twin mom and a twin pair of 90 were interested - the latter because they did not know what hour they were born...
If you do the math, with Indian techniques you would arrive at an extremely unlikely large number - 12 on the 12th on the 27th repeated. I think the result is far over what we have on the planet today...
But reincarnationally, people do not get born by chance... Or do they?
I will go on later ... your thoughtful reply deserves more, but as I said I lost my first version...
Keep up your differentiated thinking!
hungariandabbler
That is true - snake oil is dispensed. Also what you write later, with genuine seers "spicing up"Kath wrote:What vexes me, is that in turning towards 'seers', looking for answers, I found a great deal of fakery, commercialism, and self delusion, instead of answers. The psychic/fortune/medium/astrology trade seems inundated with the use of the personal validation fallacy to such a deep extent, that even people who I know first had to really be genuinely psychic, spend a large chunk of their time talking in psychobable like I wrote in my first two posts here. And that doesn't begin to even touch on the celebrity types who've been caught using various scam tactics. Like John Edwards wiring the area where people are waiting to come onto the set of his show, listening in on what they talk about before the show, just for example.
their output.
You need a personal perspective, one truly unique. Where there are no more laws, you can begin to discern the laws of that individual... even for the coming Saturday. But are you interested enough?Kath wrote:Personally, in my own precognition, I get ZERO content which is not from a 'first hand' perspective. In other words, if I glimpse the future, like say next saturday afternoon, then I'll have no f'n clue what you or anybody else will be doing next saturday afternoon, unless you happen by chance to actually be in my company, within my visual field of view, at the relevant time of the precognitive perception. I other words, I've found it utterly useless regarding anybody else's future, unless they plan to move in with me just to make a cameo in my next precognitive perception. So the fact that I *never* get any precognitive content about anybody else, leads me in a somewhat skeptical direction regarding the psychic trade itself. BUT, I recognize that this may be presumptuous. I can't say that just because I've only ever driven cars, that pickup trucks don't exist, eh? but it makes me wonder.
Philosophy: There are obviously so many gray areas between free will and predetermination. Reading Hitler's or Bundy's chart made me feel these people were simply playing parts. I could not say that about my grandmother. Glad that you have arrived at such a differentiated place of wondering. That is the beginning of true wisdom.
...On teh contrary, you may try to do tarot for yourself! If the principle that whoever is doing it affects the reading works, in this case, it watered it down, it may very well work the other way too!
Tools: Morphic resonance of tarot cards will bring a greater probability of something valuable than if you construct a system of say, Santa and Donald duck etc. as another poster remarked on CM. Rupert Sheldrake may interest you - although his language patterns are quite hypnotic. (We call these generalities you can insert your own specific contents into 'hypnotic patterns' in NLP). However, you COULD construct a valid system of divination based on say, rolling nine dice upon a giant Buddhist mandala or a GD layout - and go from there. Because the other principle I found in all divinatiton systems is that the core system that is the basis should be a more or less complete picture of the world, usually described by abstract nouns sometimes in pairs of opposites. Like, everything can be translated to (my kind) of astrology, that is just a desription of teh world, an archaic language.
You may look at the planets as the unconscious of the Sun and the Moon which are far more noticeable. They have little physical effect, yet they are on the same team. Arcturus is not. The basis of this archaic world view was what things kept on moving across the sky regularly and what didn't. What didn't was considered less important. Plus, morphic resonance... they've been at it for billions of years... they're pretty steadfast.Kath wrote:And astrology... I can show you that the lunar cycles affect human behavior. Obviously the solar cycles do too. But in the moon's case, it's gravitational force is moving the oceans, it's determining if night time will be pitch or light enough to read by moonlight, it has measurable physical effects on earth here. and the solar cycle, well, day & night... need I really explain how this affects human behavior? And I could also see, how being born at different times of the year might affect a person's psychological development, based on seasonal changes... of course that would mean that every different world climate should have different birthdate profiling, but on principal, the idea is rationally workable.
BUT, what does the path of a distant body like say Saturn, which has no gravitational effect on us, and is just a tiny pinpoint of light in the sky, moving across the backdrop of some stars which are millions of times still further away... have to do with whether I should keep my eye open for a possible new courtship next tuesday?
this hurts brain.
Pluto is barely noticeable in gravity when seeing the Sun. But as an analogy, a virus is much smaller than your organs, yet it may be a significant factor in some parts of your life because it is pattern, not quantity that matters in this case.
Precog events: I still could not figure out how they happen. But sometimes they just happen to me. I am lucky if it is during astrological counseling...
Wishful thinking is another thing that can destroy a reading's accuracy. But believe me, what I am mostly concerned with are concrete facts such as "is her husband getting so abusive during the coming months that she has to divorce or will he try to forgive and make peace?" If you know the karmic framework of these people involved, you may know a direction of their choices. If not, or not enough, you can point to a time as omen: say, if the relationship got worse this March, I would not bet on it.
Astrologers may also have certain blind spots, types of people they cannot read well - and this can be partly explained by their own astrology.
I have yet to see two identical charts of any people. Plus, in Indian, you have several secondary charts and 27 lunar mansions, so it is a rarity. Twins are studied for that, but frequently they are like one person split. The theoretical problem would only arise if you try to chart the lives of twins four or higher. The edges fall out because there are different rules for elder and younger siblings. That is why four. Then seconds will count, sometimes minutes.
But twins of four rartely frequent astrologers. At least, I cannot recall such a case - though I did go to a twin festival once to astrologize. Only one non-twin mom and a twin pair of 90 were interested - the latter because they did not know what hour they were born...
If you do the math, with Indian techniques you would arrive at an extremely unlikely large number - 12 on the 12th on the 27th repeated. I think the result is far over what we have on the planet today...
But reincarnationally, people do not get born by chance... Or do they?
I will go on later ... your thoughtful reply deserves more, but as I said I lost my first version...
Keep up your differentiated thinking!
hungariandabbler
Experiment in Divination
Yeah, the I-Ching is very interesting, but sometimes has less "range" of subjects than Tarot does. But because it's simpler to apply, it is definitely a useful one.
One interesting idea raised (in fiction, true, but the possibility exists) was that many of the "popular" forms of divination are clouded by the "noise" from everyone else using it. An interesting possibility, and one I haven't really explored, sad to say.
Anyway, to the nitty gritty. I have also found my own precognitive talents to be limited to the self, but when a prediction happens, I *know* what's going to happen. It only predicts bad events in my life, sadly. Ah, well. And Hitler, sad to say, was not just "playing a part". He was genuinely a nasty individual, and he manipulated more than he was manipulated.
One interesting idea raised (in fiction, true, but the possibility exists) was that many of the "popular" forms of divination are clouded by the "noise" from everyone else using it. An interesting possibility, and one I haven't really explored, sad to say.
Anyway, to the nitty gritty. I have also found my own precognitive talents to be limited to the self, but when a prediction happens, I *know* what's going to happen. It only predicts bad events in my life, sadly. Ah, well. And Hitler, sad to say, was not just "playing a part". He was genuinely a nasty individual, and he manipulated more than he was manipulated.
Experiment in Divination
None of the leaders of the world during WWII were honestly any better or worse than one another. Stalin was twice the murderer Hitler was, Churchill had the opportunity to end the war before it even got bloody, the American presidents used deceit and outright lies in order to coerce the American populace into supporting the war and even threw their own countrymen out purposely to die, if not killed them by their own hands, in order to use it for propaganda. Hell, most western nations even sought out and harassed, imprisoned, or killed the men and women who went out before the US and Britain entered the war, to fight Fascism in Spain. The sad fact is, the Nazi's were the only political party out there that even cared about their own people... sadly they countered that with the hatred of others.
Good people never become world leaders, but the strongest of them do have a habit of making themselves appear that way.
^entirely off topic...
So, care to go further into the idea of there being too much static in the systems, Darkwolf? Personally I'd believe that static would come more from the differing opinions on how such things should be used and their meanings, rather than the numbers alone though.
Good people never become world leaders, but the strongest of them do have a habit of making themselves appear that way.
^entirely off topic...
So, care to go further into the idea of there being too much static in the systems, Darkwolf? Personally I'd believe that static would come more from the differing opinions on how such things should be used and their meanings, rather than the numbers alone though.
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hungariandabbler
- Neophyte
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 1:45 am
Experiment in Divination
Based on Sheldrake, it is a brilliant idea that old forms of divination may be clouded by simply what happened before...
Hitler - I stated this too briefly. Sorry. This is based on my esoteric understanding, and in no way would absolve the guy from what he did and what he ordered others to do. In my studies of reincarnation - right where Nazism took place, in Central Europe - I found Nazism to be a subject blackened with so mch bad energy that it cannot be compared to many other mass murders which in retrospect killed more people. It is almost like a bunch of people wanted to overtake the entire planet by a mass sacrifice affair - whenever the matter is touched in family constellation therapy, where a group of people are asked to play your ancestors, if we play a Jewish person's family whose forerunners had been taken in the Holocaust, scores of people get sick and just roll on the floor... the energy is so negative.
I was merely stating an astrological observation tied to the OP's pondering of the philosophical question of determination related to divination: Adolf Hitler's chart seems to be very predetermined, which is an exception in my trade. Reincarnationally that may be because his soul agreed to play a most negative role in modern history.
In contrast, Stalin who ended up finishing off more people (including Siberian tribes and Jews too) than Hitler in retrospect, is shown by his Indian horoscope simply as an absolute fanatic, a political ruler who believed that money and possessions determined people's lives completely (a tenet of vulgar Marxism), might is right etc. but also that he should massacre some people for the common good of all (the utopian ideals he believed in). Kind of like the members of the Inquisition.
He lived a simple life and was a paranoid alcoholic by the way.
It is difficult for me to believe that the Hitler we know believed in anything really positive, even in his utopias... in retrospect he even betrayed those he said he would protect.
I have no sympathy for any of these tyrants but sometimes it is instructional to see horoscopes. You could have foretold by Indian techniques that Hitler was to go to prison for a while and that
later he would become a professional nationalist whose real core belief was to sacrifice masses of people for whatever black occult goals. I think if you are interested in the spiritual aspects, you may want to search for an article called "A Channelled German General" at the excellent alternative health and conspiracy web site www.educate-yourself.org.
Back to Sheldrake: do you guys think it is also possible to sometimes wash clean an old system of divination if things became too clouded? Such is definitely happening to what is called Indian astrology since the days of computers. But maybe it is also due to the sue of computers alone...
The I Ching is less useful in finding objects and concrete tasks. I've been experimenting since 82. But it is helpful in making decisions in your life.
I am no New Age fan, but Osho's Zen Tarot I found useful sometimes...
BTW I use an old style copper rod bent seven times moving in a thin wood casing right or left. Advisors, higher guides etc. may also help me through that. I am bad at finding objects but this sometimes helps me. The man who taught me to use it, a village shaman in Slovakia, said you have to ask three times if it is an important decision... It moves for a lot of other people but not at all for some who are less in touch with their latent powers. It also senses earth grids and such. However, I cannot say all my dowsing has been accurate. I was told sometimes things are subject to change as well - and this ties again to the OP's musings: let's say I get an answer today that there's going to be a civil war in Hungary soon, but then something changes, in teh will and intent and choice of many people, prayers and good magic is released and a week later the answer is no... What do you say to that?
(BTW, I would appreciate some help with my thread here "on Solerus techniques" - some of you may be much more experienced at this than I am.)
hungariandabbler
Hitler - I stated this too briefly. Sorry. This is based on my esoteric understanding, and in no way would absolve the guy from what he did and what he ordered others to do. In my studies of reincarnation - right where Nazism took place, in Central Europe - I found Nazism to be a subject blackened with so mch bad energy that it cannot be compared to many other mass murders which in retrospect killed more people. It is almost like a bunch of people wanted to overtake the entire planet by a mass sacrifice affair - whenever the matter is touched in family constellation therapy, where a group of people are asked to play your ancestors, if we play a Jewish person's family whose forerunners had been taken in the Holocaust, scores of people get sick and just roll on the floor... the energy is so negative.
I was merely stating an astrological observation tied to the OP's pondering of the philosophical question of determination related to divination: Adolf Hitler's chart seems to be very predetermined, which is an exception in my trade. Reincarnationally that may be because his soul agreed to play a most negative role in modern history.
In contrast, Stalin who ended up finishing off more people (including Siberian tribes and Jews too) than Hitler in retrospect, is shown by his Indian horoscope simply as an absolute fanatic, a political ruler who believed that money and possessions determined people's lives completely (a tenet of vulgar Marxism), might is right etc. but also that he should massacre some people for the common good of all (the utopian ideals he believed in). Kind of like the members of the Inquisition.
He lived a simple life and was a paranoid alcoholic by the way.
It is difficult for me to believe that the Hitler we know believed in anything really positive, even in his utopias... in retrospect he even betrayed those he said he would protect.
I have no sympathy for any of these tyrants but sometimes it is instructional to see horoscopes. You could have foretold by Indian techniques that Hitler was to go to prison for a while and that
later he would become a professional nationalist whose real core belief was to sacrifice masses of people for whatever black occult goals. I think if you are interested in the spiritual aspects, you may want to search for an article called "A Channelled German General" at the excellent alternative health and conspiracy web site www.educate-yourself.org.
Back to Sheldrake: do you guys think it is also possible to sometimes wash clean an old system of divination if things became too clouded? Such is definitely happening to what is called Indian astrology since the days of computers. But maybe it is also due to the sue of computers alone...
The I Ching is less useful in finding objects and concrete tasks. I've been experimenting since 82. But it is helpful in making decisions in your life.
I am no New Age fan, but Osho's Zen Tarot I found useful sometimes...
BTW I use an old style copper rod bent seven times moving in a thin wood casing right or left. Advisors, higher guides etc. may also help me through that. I am bad at finding objects but this sometimes helps me. The man who taught me to use it, a village shaman in Slovakia, said you have to ask three times if it is an important decision... It moves for a lot of other people but not at all for some who are less in touch with their latent powers. It also senses earth grids and such. However, I cannot say all my dowsing has been accurate. I was told sometimes things are subject to change as well - and this ties again to the OP's musings: let's say I get an answer today that there's going to be a civil war in Hungary soon, but then something changes, in teh will and intent and choice of many people, prayers and good magic is released and a week later the answer is no... What do you say to that?
(BTW, I would appreciate some help with my thread here "on Solerus techniques" - some of you may be much more experienced at this than I am.)
hungariandabbler
Experiment in Divination
I hate it when you type up something large and hit submit and find that you've been disconnected. always worth right clicking in the text field, 'select all', right click in it again, 'copy'... then submit. then your post is in your computer's clipboard. but yeah, i have all too often forgotten to do that myself. I try to remember to for larger posts though.
Perhaps if I eventually get this magnum opus thing all worked out then 'first person perspective' will take on a somewhat broader meaning and I'll be a little less egocentric in my precognition
Back when I was a christian, I always liked saint thomas. he saw christ walking on water, but that didn't make him into a "just believe anything" kind of guy. Must be a distant ancestor of mine. I try not to be overly cynical, but I don't believe in much without first seeing first hand the mechanism or principal by which it works. If I weren't overtly psychic, and fairly interactive with various entities, I would be a happily simpler atheist. for example, i've never seen a ufo or an alien, so I "just smile & nod" when people talk about them. Which doesn't mean that there can't be any aliens, just that I don't have very much respect for the rationality or even sanity of mankind, and I've never seen any aliens. (unless you count a nonphysical being I ran across last year which did actually look a lot like how UFO people describe aliens, but I digress)
maybe 4, depending on your view of contractions.
Regarding free will & pre-determinism, this has been a subject of a great deal of study by myself, for about 30 years now. I'd love to run with that topic, but I'd end up completely burying this thread in reams of text on that subject if I get started
I'd suspect that I wouldn't be very good at doing my own tarot, because I don't really have much confidence in tarot cards, and in my magical practices, I've found confidence to be a necessary ingredient.
If i jump up into the air, the earth moves away from me in an equal and opposite reaction to me. The earth moves away from me with the same amount of energy I jump up with. However, its actual movement is immeasurably tiny, because its mass is so much greater, the earth only moves some near infinite small distance in order to amount to the same kinetic energy. But technically, when i jump, the earth does move. really distant planets, or smaller planets which are 'pretty distant', their impact on the earth, in terms of actual physical impact, is in this same negligible bracket as jumping up & down. every time we launch a satellite into orbit, we push on the earth more than mars' gravity does. So in terms of physical impact, it's just not there. in terms of light or radiation, again, negligible.
as for the potency of tiny influences in complex systems, that's really sort of touching on something like The Butterfly Wing Effect. The idea being that in complex and unpredictable dynamic systems, every tiny input affects the progress of all variables in the system in such a way that every variation is magnified as it cascades through time. For example, a butterfly flaps its wings in china, or it doesn't... 6 months later a hurricane hits either florida or cuba depending on whether it did or not. This is somewhat countered by opposing views as well, and the truth, is probably in a golden mean. However, the butterfly wing effect concept is a part of chaos theory physics. IE the whole point of it is that events are ultimately unpredictable by nature, due to the cascading effect of countless tiny and unknowable variables. So to say that you're predicting the future by leaning on butterflywingeffect-like influences on our world and lives, is... like saying you use liquid nitrogen to heat up leftover pizza. the butterfly wing effect lends itself to unpredictability, not predictability (divination).
All of which is to say, that there is nothing in physics, theoretical or otherwise, which in any way lends anything at all to the validity of astrology. It does not say that astrology works or doesn't work, but that if it does, it would be 'magic', not the subtle forces of nature. Or, I should say, not any of the subtle forces of nature which we are currently scientifically aware of.
I am somewhat handicapped in my view of astrology, in that I am an avid fan & hobbyist of astroNOMY, so my sense of wonder when looking up at the night sky is somewhat filled up with knowledge already. When I look up, I have a pretty clear understanding of what I'm looking at. You could drop me off anywhere on earth, give me a working watch, the date, and one day&night of clear skies, and I could tell you where on earth I am within a couple hundred miles without any other tools. Cuz they're not just pretty dots moving across other dots that look like patterns, they're objects in 3D space moving in a 3D clockwork.
If the moon occludes venus, its a fairly significant astrological event. astronomically its a somewhat rare event. But rationally its just two objects, one in front of the other. Is there a mystical significance? maybe, but its certainly a leap of faith to think so. Zoroaster would say so, but I'm not a member of any persian religions personally.
But what do i know? I talk to nonphysical beings, I'm in no position to critisize someone for thinking 'the moon touched venus & it means something'
Honestly I could be a really great 'psychic' just by taking my ability to get into peoples' heads, on both a psychological level and yes, on a metaphysical level too. And cutting through the superficial thought processes, examining the voices which underly the internal dialog, using lateral thinking, problem solving, etc. And then making up some sort of mystical song & dance to dazzle & amaze, while subtly directing people towards rational perspectives which 'make everything seem so clear now'. Because frankly 90% of everything anyone ever asks a psychic, is something they unconsciously already know the answer to.
But I'd not enjoy doing that.
again though, remember I'm speaking skeptically, but as a practicioner of magic(k), and pioneer/student of my own enlightenment path. just trying to be Frank, not Hostile (technically i'm Kate though, *smirk*). I keep repeating that because I'm really enjoying the discussion, and don't want it to seem unfriendly you can put a big fat "I think..." in front of any of my statements.
That sounds sorta like "maybe its cuz you're just self focused". To which i'd reply "maybe". But it doesn't quite answer it for me. The sense isn't that its 90% about me, or that i'm even necessarily important within precognitive content, but simply that what I precognitively perceive is always from a 'first hand' perspective. In other words, I perceive it as a participant part of the future. Its visual, auditory, touch, smell, taste, feeling. It's always a 'being there', as my future self. Not an outside floating viewpoint that just follows me cuz I like me so much. When I was a child, i accepted the idea of foretelling the future quite easily, because of my experiences. But when i heard that there were people who foretold other peoples' futures, that sounded alien and silly to me. Just doesn't work that way for me. Which isn't to say that it doesn't or can't work, just that it doesn't sit well in my gut.You need a personal perspective, one truly unique. Where there are no more laws, you can begin to discern the laws of that individual... even for the coming Saturday. But are you interested enough?Kath wrote:Personally, in my own precognition, I get ZERO content which is not from a 'first hand' perspective. In other words, if I glimpse the future, like say next saturday afternoon, then I'll have no f'n clue what you or anybody else will be doing next saturday afternoon, unless you happen by chance to actually be in my company, within my visual field of view, at the relevant time of the precognitive perception. I other words, I've found it utterly useless regarding anybody else's future, unless they plan to move in with me just to make a cameo in my next precognitive perception. So the fact that I *never* get any precognitive content about anybody else, leads me in a somewhat skeptical direction regarding the psychic trade itself. BUT, I recognize that this may be presumptuous. I can't say that just because I've only ever driven cars, that pickup trucks don't exist, eh? but it makes me wonder.
Perhaps if I eventually get this magnum opus thing all worked out then 'first person perspective' will take on a somewhat broader meaning and I'll be a little less egocentric in my precognition
Back when I was a christian, I always liked saint thomas. he saw christ walking on water, but that didn't make him into a "just believe anything" kind of guy. Must be a distant ancestor of mine. I try not to be overly cynical, but I don't believe in much without first seeing first hand the mechanism or principal by which it works. If I weren't overtly psychic, and fairly interactive with various entities, I would be a happily simpler atheist. for example, i've never seen a ufo or an alien, so I "just smile & nod" when people talk about them. Which doesn't mean that there can't be any aliens, just that I don't have very much respect for the rationality or even sanity of mankind, and I've never seen any aliens. (unless you count a nonphysical being I ran across last year which did actually look a lot like how UFO people describe aliens, but I digress)
3 words are the beginning of wisdom, "I don't know"Philosophy: There are obviously so many gray areas between free will and predetermination. Reading Hitler's or Bundy's chart made me feel these people were simply playing parts. I could not say that about my grandmother. Glad that you have arrived at such a differentiated place of wondering. That is the beginning of true wisdom.
maybe 4, depending on your view of contractions.
Regarding free will & pre-determinism, this has been a subject of a great deal of study by myself, for about 30 years now. I'd love to run with that topic, but I'd end up completely burying this thread in reams of text on that subject if I get started
Are you saying i should interpret my own tarot reading? or that I need to handle the cards & do all of it? if you're suggesting the latter, then are you meaning to say that there is a magical 'non-chance' event occurring in the order & placement of the cards? Because i've always kinda viewed tarot as being fairly random, and occurring more in the reader, where the cards are just forming a framework to work in/reflect on. But if you think that the order & placement of the cards is 'magically active' in itself, then that would imply some pretty far reaching ideas, in terms of your paradigm....On teh contrary, you may try to do tarot for yourself! If the principle that whoever is doing it affects the reading works, in this case, it watered it down, it may very well work the other way too!
I'd suspect that I wouldn't be very good at doing my own tarot, because I don't really have much confidence in tarot cards, and in my magical practices, I've found confidence to be a necessary ingredient.
except that in a mind, the unconscious is typically much larger and more powerful/influential than the conscious mind. and in the sky, pluto ain't jack.You may look at the planets as the unconscious of the Sun and the Moon which are far more noticeable. They have little physical effect, yet they are on the same team. Arcturus is not. The basis of this archaic world view was what things kept on moving across the sky regularly and what didn't. What didn't was considered less important. Plus, morphic resonance... they've been at it for billions of years... they're pretty steadfast.
Pluto is barely noticeable in gravity when seeing the Sun. But as an analogy, a virus is much smaller than your organs, yet it may be a significant factor in some parts of your life because it is pattern, not quantity that matters in this case.
If i jump up into the air, the earth moves away from me in an equal and opposite reaction to me. The earth moves away from me with the same amount of energy I jump up with. However, its actual movement is immeasurably tiny, because its mass is so much greater, the earth only moves some near infinite small distance in order to amount to the same kinetic energy. But technically, when i jump, the earth does move. really distant planets, or smaller planets which are 'pretty distant', their impact on the earth, in terms of actual physical impact, is in this same negligible bracket as jumping up & down. every time we launch a satellite into orbit, we push on the earth more than mars' gravity does. So in terms of physical impact, it's just not there. in terms of light or radiation, again, negligible.
as for the potency of tiny influences in complex systems, that's really sort of touching on something like The Butterfly Wing Effect. The idea being that in complex and unpredictable dynamic systems, every tiny input affects the progress of all variables in the system in such a way that every variation is magnified as it cascades through time. For example, a butterfly flaps its wings in china, or it doesn't... 6 months later a hurricane hits either florida or cuba depending on whether it did or not. This is somewhat countered by opposing views as well, and the truth, is probably in a golden mean. However, the butterfly wing effect concept is a part of chaos theory physics. IE the whole point of it is that events are ultimately unpredictable by nature, due to the cascading effect of countless tiny and unknowable variables. So to say that you're predicting the future by leaning on butterflywingeffect-like influences on our world and lives, is... like saying you use liquid nitrogen to heat up leftover pizza. the butterfly wing effect lends itself to unpredictability, not predictability (divination).
All of which is to say, that there is nothing in physics, theoretical or otherwise, which in any way lends anything at all to the validity of astrology. It does not say that astrology works or doesn't work, but that if it does, it would be 'magic', not the subtle forces of nature. Or, I should say, not any of the subtle forces of nature which we are currently scientifically aware of.
I am somewhat handicapped in my view of astrology, in that I am an avid fan & hobbyist of astroNOMY, so my sense of wonder when looking up at the night sky is somewhat filled up with knowledge already. When I look up, I have a pretty clear understanding of what I'm looking at. You could drop me off anywhere on earth, give me a working watch, the date, and one day&night of clear skies, and I could tell you where on earth I am within a couple hundred miles without any other tools. Cuz they're not just pretty dots moving across other dots that look like patterns, they're objects in 3D space moving in a 3D clockwork.
If the moon occludes venus, its a fairly significant astrological event. astronomically its a somewhat rare event. But rationally its just two objects, one in front of the other. Is there a mystical significance? maybe, but its certainly a leap of faith to think so. Zoroaster would say so, but I'm not a member of any persian religions personally.
But what do i know? I talk to nonphysical beings, I'm in no position to critisize someone for thinking 'the moon touched venus & it means something'
It has been my experience that people already know what is going on in their life, and/or what they need to do. They just subconsciously cloud the matter for various psychological reasons. I don't read fortunes, but I do read people, and I'm pretty good with 'minds'. I've found that by hanging out with 'psychics' I've managed to steal some fame for myself, by solving peoples' problems with psychology & logic instead. I have even had people, who had screamingly obvious situations, but wouldn't cooperate with reason or logic unless i pretended to make it 'mystical', then they underwent cathartic experience, and seemed very impressed. There's a couple episodes of South Park which really just capture that sort of experience perfectly, usually when Kyle or Stan are trying to talk sense into adults.Precog events: I still could not figure out how they happen. But sometimes they just happen to me. I am lucky if it is during astrological counseling...
Wishful thinking is another thing that can destroy a reading's accuracy. But believe me, what I am mostly concerned with are concrete facts such as "is her husband getting so abusive during the coming months that she has to divorce or will he try to forgive and make peace?" If you know the karmic framework of these people involved, you may know a direction of their choices. If not, or not enough, you can point to a time as omen: say, if the relationship got worse this March, I would not bet on it.
Honestly I could be a really great 'psychic' just by taking my ability to get into peoples' heads, on both a psychological level and yes, on a metaphysical level too. And cutting through the superficial thought processes, examining the voices which underly the internal dialog, using lateral thinking, problem solving, etc. And then making up some sort of mystical song & dance to dazzle & amaze, while subtly directing people towards rational perspectives which 'make everything seem so clear now'. Because frankly 90% of everything anyone ever asks a psychic, is something they unconsciously already know the answer to.
But I'd not enjoy doing that.
hehe, I've never had much choice but toKeep up your differentiated thinking!
again though, remember I'm speaking skeptically, but as a practicioner of magic(k), and pioneer/student of my own enlightenment path. just trying to be Frank, not Hostile (technically i'm Kate though, *smirk*). I keep repeating that because I'm really enjoying the discussion, and don't want it to seem unfriendly
you can put a big fat "I think..." in front of any of my statements.‘????????? -
?? ????Audaces fortuna iuvat
?Experiment in Divination
The idea that multiple people using divination systems can bleed 'static' into the systems themselves...
I like it.
It fits very well with sigilization principals as well.
I have, sometimes wondered, just what might be magically possible but for 7 billion people around us, the majority of which ponder impossibility more than possibility. One has to wonder what impact that has on our working. Might explain things working better at night, when more of the local population is unconscious, or the magical feel of remote places.
I like it.
It fits very well with sigilization principals as well.
I have, sometimes wondered, just what might be magically possible but for 7 billion people around us, the majority of which ponder impossibility more than possibility. One has to wonder what impact that has on our working. Might explain things working better at night, when more of the local population is unconscious, or the magical feel of remote places.
‘????????? -
?? ????Audaces fortuna iuvat
?Experiment in Divination
*grins* to answer the question in the last half of your post, Kath... So much, even despite the 'sheep and goats' effect. Also to answer a few other points and questions:-
The static comes from so many people using the same *method*, generally. One person's reading, I've noticed, can be interfered with by a reading just five feet away, and then, I've found, the events get horribly mixed. But in general, the effect is only noticable on a large scale. So using a very rare form (Indian Astrology, Selenomancy, the like) seems to work better, although many times these forms have been discarded because, frankly, they're not very practical.
Now, back to Kath. If you admit that life is made of several billion (at least!) random probabilities occuring, then it is *possible* you have a synchronistic effect with the cards. But I don't really subscribe to that theory, merely state it as a possibility. I reiterate that it is merely a tool that functions by bringing your subconscious knowledge (that information you have processed, but not in a conscious fashion) to the fore, allowing you to make decisions based upon perceptions you already have.
Hungariandabbler, you are quite correct in your thesis, and it interests me that you came to that conclusion by such a roundabout method. Nonetheless, it's the results that count, not the process in this case, and you are quite correct about your theory with Hitler. Luckily, the damned man failed.
Phew. Long post, for me!
The static comes from so many people using the same *method*, generally. One person's reading, I've noticed, can be interfered with by a reading just five feet away, and then, I've found, the events get horribly mixed. But in general, the effect is only noticable on a large scale. So using a very rare form (Indian Astrology, Selenomancy, the like) seems to work better, although many times these forms have been discarded because, frankly, they're not very practical.
Now, back to Kath. If you admit that life is made of several billion (at least!) random probabilities occuring, then it is *possible* you have a synchronistic effect with the cards. But I don't really subscribe to that theory, merely state it as a possibility. I reiterate that it is merely a tool that functions by bringing your subconscious knowledge (that information you have processed, but not in a conscious fashion) to the fore, allowing you to make decisions based upon perceptions you already have.
Hungariandabbler, you are quite correct in your thesis, and it interests me that you came to that conclusion by such a roundabout method. Nonetheless, it's the results that count, not the process in this case, and you are quite correct about your theory with Hitler. Luckily, the damned man failed.
Phew. Long post, for me!
Experiment in Divination
Hey Kath, interesting thread. I myself could spot the "cold reading" part from about the first half of your initial post, I was thinking most of the people on this forum have already done the same thing as well. I mean most people looking into divination will stumble unto cold reading, and what terms it uses.
As for how much is accurate how much bs, I think Remote Viewing is doing a pretty good job of telling the two apart, especially in Associative RV, where you get clear accuracy numbers (75% or whatever). There's also a good deal of statistics on what affects that accuracy over time, and so far they came up with
- Solar Wind Speed
- Sidereal Time and
- Moon Phase (in that order, I think).
IMO the more people stand to gain (financially) from their alleged "psychic powers", the more they will be tempted to market them better, by exaggerating what they can do, and how often. The more they use the skills they have for real (like in Associative RV, betting their own money on it) the more they will need an exact error margin they work with, and possibly how external factors affect their accuracy. I found that if you're honest about those numbers, there are things you can do, to somehow minimize the impact of your errors, and get a better system that's more accurate as a result.
Can't really find solutions to problems until you first admit they actually exist.
So far Remote Viewing is one of the few places where I've heard people say hey, it works 2 out of 3 times, and 1 out of 3 it's just gibberish, you can ignore it. I wonder how open to exact measurements other people are, from other divination fields
As for how much is accurate how much bs, I think Remote Viewing is doing a pretty good job of telling the two apart, especially in Associative RV, where you get clear accuracy numbers (75% or whatever). There's also a good deal of statistics on what affects that accuracy over time, and so far they came up with
- Solar Wind Speed
- Sidereal Time and
- Moon Phase (in that order, I think).
IMO the more people stand to gain (financially) from their alleged "psychic powers", the more they will be tempted to market them better, by exaggerating what they can do, and how often. The more they use the skills they have for real (like in Associative RV, betting their own money on it) the more they will need an exact error margin they work with, and possibly how external factors affect their accuracy. I found that if you're honest about those numbers, there are things you can do, to somehow minimize the impact of your errors, and get a better system that's more accurate as a result.
Can't really find solutions to problems until you first admit they actually exist.
So far Remote Viewing is one of the few places where I've heard people say hey, it works 2 out of 3 times, and 1 out of 3 it's just gibberish, you can ignore it. I wonder how open to exact measurements other people are, from other divination fields