Are there good demons?

Lucian · Post by **Lucian** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 1:23 pm

I'm no expert on occult theory and practice, so forgive me if this is a strange or stupid question, but I'd still like to know: Are there good demons? I know there are evil angels (At least, I'm fairly certain) so I would take a guess as to say that if there's evil angels, there's good demons.

Any thoughts on this? Thanks.

*Edit* Sorry about the lack of title. I labled it as 'My first question', but for some reason it keeps showing a smiley instead. I'm not sure why....

Mist · Post by **Mist** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 3:09 pm

Well, to me personally good and evil differ greatly from each person's perspective.
I won't try to bring doubt about the existence or malexistence of demons and angels, that is something you decide for yourself.
But if you want to find out if there are any "good demons" then the first thing you should think of is:

What is my image of demonic creatures?
How can I describe my perspective of "good"?
Is my image of demons able to reflect a personality that is "good" in my eyes?

Also, your question is quite general, as demons are referred to differently in seperate cultures and religions.
If you really want an answer to that, I suggest you find out more about the perticular demons you believe exist.

Post by **Venefica** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 7:15 pm

First of all what are your idea of angels and demons? Many religions and cultures have had Spiritual messengers flying between the Divine and mankind. And the word angel just means messenger. As for demons, what a demon is vary allot between various religions and cultures as well, in Shinto for example any hostile Spirit or supernatural creature is seen as a demon.

Then there is a question of what is good or evil in your eyes. If you are a strong Christian believer and hold to that world view then all angels are good, and all demons are evil. Though an angel can fall and become evil, every angel even when it is punishing mankind is good, and every demon even if it are helping mankind is evil. However other world views might be very different. Many might look at for example the angel that on order from God killed all the first born children in Egypt, many of them completely innocent young children, it was a terror tactic against the Egyptian people and say look at that, that is evil, others might see descriptions of demons helping people and say see there they are good.

Now in the occult angel and demon is a rather loose concept, especially demon, which many use for any negative Entity. However in my opinion there are no good or evil, but a thing might be helpful or harmful. With angels you more often know what you are getting, they follow the orders of the God or Gods or Goddesses of the pantheon they serve. That be an angry angel of death, a water color and sweetness new age angel, the Archangel Gabriel, Norse valkyries or Enochian angels, some of them might wish to do you harm, but depending on what pantheon of angels you are dealing with, you should be able to know what you get. Demons however is more unpredictable, they might decide they like you and help you allot, or decide to just attack you the moment they see you, they also work for them self instead of some God and therefore might have other prices. I might be tempted to say they are more dangerous to deal with due to being more unpredictable. But good an evil, no, I do not subscribe to those concepts. But are you asking if a demon can be kind, yes I think a demon can, but I do not think it is very often.

Torey · Post by **Torey** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:27 am

I work exclusively with Demons in my path. To me, They are neither wholly benevolent nor malevolent. They are what They are - spiritual beings whose natures are truly unknown to us. I firmly believe that how They treat you depends on how you approach Them to begin with.

Post by **Venefica** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 1:17 pm

Like I said, it depend allot on what the individual's idea of what a demon is happens to be. To some they are a race of Spiritual creatures, to others the minions of whatever they call good, and to others again they are all malevolent Spirits and supernatural creatures. There are allot of different definitions.

Ankhhape · Post by **Ankhhape** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 5:24 pm

It is the Intent behind what you use Daimons (Spirit Energies) for that dictates benevolence or malevolence.

Post by **Venefica** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 5:51 pm

They have no will or desires of their own in which to be beneficial or malevolent towards you and others with? Are they just Energies in your opinion? And not creatures in their own right in any shape or form?

Ankhhape · Post by **Ankhhape** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 7:14 pm

They are aspects of our Inner Self waiting to take form and become flesh

sekhem_nefer · Post by **sekhem_nefer** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 9:39 pm

Lucian wrote:I'm no expert on occult theory and practice, so forgive me if this is a strange or stupid question, but I'd still like to know: Are there good demons? I know there are evil angels (At least, I'm fairly certain) so I would take a guess as to say that if there's evil angels, there's good demons.

Any thoughts on this? Thanks.

*Edit* Sorry about the lack of title. I labled it as 'My first question', but for some reason it keeps showing a smiley instead. I'm not sure why....

If you believe in Judeo-Christian-Islamic thought then evil angels ARE DEMONS. And if you are going the pagan route in your belief system then I suggest you disregard the belief in angels and demons all together, since both are really a Judeo-Christian-Islamic invention. Maybe some pagan beliefs adapted the concept in ancient times, but mostly like it was due to the influence of Judeo-Christian-Islamic culture invaded theirs during colonialism. Just like you can find some Roman, Greek and Persian hints of religion in some Judeo-Chrisitan-Islamic holy textbooks.

Post by **Venefica** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:18 pm

And if you are going the pagan route in your belief system then I suggest you disregard the belief in angels and demons all together, since both are really a Judeo-Christian-Islamic invention.

Actually no they are not. Allot of religions, including Pagan religions have the concept of messengers Spirits that are usually described as winged that deliver messages between the Gods and man. The Norse Valkyries for example. The word angel just means messenger. And it have been a common concept long before the Judeo Christian faiths formed their mythology. The same for demons, most Asian religions for example use the term demon on any Spirit or supernatural being who is at odds with the God, or even who are just hostile to human beings. Angels and Demons and presented in the Bible, yes that is a Christian concept, but Angels and Demons in other form are common concepts in most religions.

Jastiv · Post by **Jastiv** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 12:54 am

I used to have this really noob idea that angels = good and demons = bad. Then I became a Satanist, and had to rethink the whole notion. I decided I was going to go beyond the silly idea of throwing things into childish categories of good and bad.
I spent a lot of time reading about angels and demons, and I learned that demons were more into doing thing on the material plane, while angels were supposed to be about the spiritual. Then I decided to do some rituals to test my theory and put them into practice so to speak.

I think it is a mistake to blindly and obediently worship a demon like some crazy fundamentalist god and doing whatever it says no matter what. The key of Solomon takes the opposite approach and makes it sound like you should order them around like slaves and threaten them. But then I used to wonder what was a so called good magician doing summoning them in the first place then?

Magical practice is really the only way to for certain to answer questions about the nature these beings. If you have not done it yourself, how do you know that people are not just making stuff up, or even that what they say does apply to you?

Ankhhape · Post by **Ankhhape** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 12:31 pm

The word demon comes from the archaic daimon and are Spirit Energies, neither good nor bad. It was the Abrahamic religions as usual that corrupted the name and used it for their own leverage.

Druj - old Persian Draug / demon
Djinn - Arabic spirit energy that acts like a servitor (genie)
Daemon is used by Thelemites in reference to the Inner Self / Holy Guardian Angel

Asterion · Post by **Asterion** » Sun Oct 04, 2009 4:50 pm

there are a numer of angelic beings that hold an office wich to humans might seem bad, such as the ministering angels of wrath, punishment, judgement or grief. They are not bad or evil, simply work the divine will in a particular domain that humans care to avoid. If someone has hurt you, and you seek Divine Justice, the person who hurt you will get punished, right? To you, that angel is a hero, a good guy, buy for your bully, that angel is a baddass m..f...

a good demon might be one that is very diplomatic and seemingly pleasent, such as some of the boys and gals of goetia, but most of the time they have an agenda of their own and just wish to gain your trusty. they always want something in return. Altruistic and demon just don t seem to ge well together.

Elystan · Post by **Elystan** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:30 pm

I think it may already have been mentioned but demon is a neutral term originally meaning a wise spirit. Cacodemon being the term used to refer to malevolent entities, and I forget its correpsonding term.

Although within the prevailing Christian paradigm and thus the major method for supernatural interpretation of psychic phenomena in the west you're looking at an answer much like the one above this. However, doing the opposite of whatever Christians do just because the do it is childish and can get you in a lot of trouble spiritually.

Asterion · Post by **Asterion** » Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:07 am

i m quite aware of the neutral and androgyne sense of the original term daimon. it s not a question of semantics and ethymology. i agree with you, and ethymologically speaking, Michael, Gabriel, Uriel and all the rest are of course, daimones. I think the term demon was meant here just as it is meant in the whole world nowwadays, a predominating negative being or fallen entity.

While i wholehartedly agree with you on the origin of the word, i think the word demon has now other valences and we are supposed to go with the flow. Cacodaemon is ideed the term used, then again, it s not quite the most popular term around.

Why use demon to decribe a wise spirit, if you actually mean spirit, entity, soul, angel, guardian, watcher , etc?

And why ask if there are benevolant wise spirits? It s quite redundant.... My guess is it was mean demon as in cacodaemon...

There is a lot of literature out there, especially on the web, describing the nasties of all mythologies as fluffy anfd friendly: when it comes to norsebeliefs, Loki is a cool guy, when it comes to pagan lore, Dyonissos is one hell of a guy, talking about the judeo christian esotheric paradigm, Lilith is a babe and a dear, Vassago is cute and friendly, Bune is a great buddy, Lucifer is a great dude , and Satan is full of love for humanity...

My guess is that particular kind of perception about demonic or cacodaemonic entities sparked the conversation.

Thanks for the response i was actually wondering if someone will start posting. A very pertinent answer.

Post by **Venefica** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:51 am

Perhaps it would be wise rather than to discuss whatever or not some creatures have the quality good or the quality evil, to discuss what those qualities are. So I am asking the original poster, and really any on the forum, what are good? And what are evil? And how do you know if a creature have these qualities? Can we really judge the morality of Spirits with our often limited minds?

Asterion · Post by **Asterion** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 2:41 pm

in my oppinion, good and evil are striclty human categories, that occur when we interced between a cause and an effect. if we find ourselves in loss, pain, discomfort, disillusion, etc, we deem it evil, and if we find joy and happiness , we deem it good.

evil spiritis would be those who inflict pain, death, fear or use the resorces of other s without consent.

good spirits would be helpful yet selfless beings, caring and nurturing for us upon request without asking for something in return that they could proffit from.

just an oppinion.

Post by **Venefica** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:35 pm

I agree that good and evil are human categories but it are categories not always clear cut. Sex is good, and still many considers such pleasures to be evil. Forsaking all you have to follow an ideal can be painful and hurtful, and yet many would consider it to be good. Most have a tendency to view good as whatever is adhering to their personal moral code, and evil as what they consider wrong according to their own moral code.

We would a helpful Spirit need to be selfless to be considered good? Is it not good enough that He She or It are helpful and friendly to humans?

Elystan · Post by **Elystan** » Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:51 pm

Venefica wrote:Perhaps it would be wise rather than to discuss whatever or not some creatures have the quality good or the quality evil, to discuss what those qualities are. So I am asking the original poster, and really any on the forum, what are good? And what are evil? And how do you know if a creature have these qualities? Can we really judge the morality of Spirits with our often limited minds?

Biggest tangent ever. Let me quote a guy with a hammer

Nietschze wrote: My demand of the philosopher is well known: that he take his stand beyond good and evil and treat the illusion of moral judgment as beneath him. This demand follows from an insight that I was the first to articulate: that there are no moral facts. Moral and religious judgments are based on realities that do not exist. Morality is merely an interpretation of certain phenomena â€” more precisely, a misinterpretation. Moral judgments, like religious ones, belong to a stage of ignorance in which the very concept of the real, and the distinction between what is real and imaginary, are still lacking. "Truth" at this stage designates all sorts of things that we today call "figments of the imagination." Moral judgments are therefore never to be taken literally: so understood, they are always merely absurd. Semiotically, however, they remain invaluable: they reveal, at least for those who can interpret them, the most valuable realities of cultures and psychologies that did not know how to "understand" themselves. Morality is only a language of signs, a group of symptoms: one must know how to interpret them correctly to be able to profit from them.

Asterion · Post by **Asterion** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 8:56 am

you can settle this in a more simple manner. Pick one spirit from the goetia, conjure it, and ask him to make you cookies. If he refuses and starts cursing in an obscure Babylonian dialect and calls you pewny mortal, than no, there are no such things as good demons.

please dont turn this thread into a good versus evil versus moral versus duuality philosophic debate. Nietzche has nothing to do with the concept of dualistic hierarchies of beings simply because he denies the very source and head of the hierachy itself.

like quoting James Randi in a conjuration...

there are such things as painful usefull experiennces, and such things as very pleasent blockages in one s spiritual path.

DantheDilettante · Post by **DantheDilettante** » Tue Feb 09, 2010 8:23 pm

I think that 'good' and 'evil' are purely human concepts, which differ from person to person and culture to culture. So ascribing monotheistic consensus morality to a supernatural entity doesn't make much sense. The very terms 'angel' and 'demon' are loaded with subjective morality judgements, the former having positive connotations and the latter negative. I think that making the destinction between the two based upon their relationship to the individual and their own respective characteristics is more concise and accurate than talking in terms of good and evil. That is if a distinction between angels and demons needs to be made at all. I think reading up on Nietzsche is beneficial to anyone wanting to free themselves from the moral dogmas of Christianity. Even though many people think of themselves as being free of Judeo/Christian doctrine western society in general is still in the throes of the moral absolutism which is a hangover from Christianity. I think of myself as a moral relativist though so it figures that I would think this way.

Post by **Venefica** » Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:55 pm

Even if one have Christian morality, the morality, not the religion, then the behavior of demons can be considered good. Is not good in the Christian morality defined as being kind, helpful and so on, many demons in various lores are helpful, or even kind, is not that being good?

DantheDilettante · Post by **DantheDilettante** » Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:45 pm

Is not good in the Christian morality defined as being kind, helpful and so on, many demons in various lores are helpful, or even kind, is not that being good?

It is good if you are viewing the world through a Christian lens, sure. Good and evil, right and wrong, beautiful and ugly are all subjective value judgements. The 21st century westerner might have a different conception of beauty to the 5th century Papua New Guinnean tribesman, the 21st century occultist might have a different conception of good to the extraterrestrial from Sirius or our theoretical demon. All value judgements are abstractions and ultimately meaningless to everyone apart from the observer. O.K, i'll admit to playing devil's(or demon's?) advocate here, and pursuing this mode of thinking can perhaps lead to solipsistic nihilism, but understanding that good and evil are subjective and mean different things to different people is, I think, an enlightening idea. Also, it may have come across that I was speaking disparagingly of Christianity. I have no problem with Christ, and find his gospel of love and forgiveness beautifull.It is only the overly rigid moral dogmas of mainstream Christianity that I have issue with.

DantheDilettante · Post by **DantheDilettante** » Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:49 pm

please dont turn this thread into a good versus evil versus moral versus duuality philosophic debate

Sorry buddy, I guess I got a little carried away there.

Post by **Venefica** » Wed Feb 10, 2010 8:17 am

It is good if you are viewing the world through a Christian lens, sure. Good and evil, right and wrong, beautiful and ugly are all subjective value judgements.

Which is what I have said several times in the tread, so yes I agree with this. I used the Christian morality an example as it is perhaps the best known in the West. But like I have said. Good and evil are just human concepts, not universal truths.