where to start ?

[Shaam]

I do not agree, Chaos Magick is not beginner friendly, the topic is so huge, where is a beginner to start? Better to find a system and a good beginner book to take the first steps, then explore more exotic paths like Chaos Magick. What you are suggesting is like asking someone who have just got a piano to start composing. First one take lessons, then one play the music others have created, then one compose ones own, to do it the other way around only creates a mess.

I don't know. To me you are making Chaos Magick too much of a big deal. I felt like I have wasted my time dealing with other forms of magick and should have done Chaos from the start.

I simply don't see Chaos to be that difficult. Enochian, Thelema, Hemetercism is difficult and a pain the ass. Along with Witchcraft, Wicca and whatnot, that forces to make you belief in shit that you don't really care about nor truly believe. Like why in the hell should I be concerned with the God and the Goddess when I don't believe in two freaking dieties in the first place?

Why should I care about archangels and demons when I don't believe they exist.

Chaos magick is perfect for a beginner because you are not obligated to believe in anything except what you want to believe.


Simply, why waste your time with the Tree of Life and giving a damn about Ancient Hebrew and Kabbala ideas mixed with ancient Roman/Greek philosophies from bunch of dudes that dudes who liked to wear hooded capes over their heads from the Medieval times....


Chaos Magick makes sense and it is very simple. All the rest is that Harry Potter over ritualized bullshit for people who have nothing better to do than to make magick some nuclear physicist project with all that mind numbing contrived mysticism.

I am seldom one to disagree publicly to a large degree...but your attitude and approach is one of the most cynical,sour, inappropriate, and misguided ideals that I have heard in the last 30 years. This shows me that you have suffered great personal disappointments in your life which you are attempting to pass on to anyone who will listen to you. Passing on mistrust and doubt seems to be your total mission in life. There is good counseling available which could help you, I'm sure there are some offices located in your area.

[MrK]

I do not agree, Chaos Magick is not beginner friendly, the topic is so huge, where is a beginner to start? Better to find a system and a good beginner book to take the first steps, then explore more exotic paths like Chaos Magick. What you are suggesting is like asking someone who have just got a piano to start composing. First one take lessons, then one play the music others have created, then one compose ones own, to do it the other way around only creates a mess.

I don't know. To me you are making Chaos Magick too much of a big deal. I felt like I have wasted my time dealing with other forms of magick and should have done Chaos from the start.

I simply don't see Chaos to be that difficult. Enochian, Thelema, Hemetercism is difficult and a pain the ass. Along with Witchcraft, Wicca and whatnot, that forces to make you belief in shit that you don't really care about nor truly believe. Like why in the hell should I be concerned with the God and the Goddess when I don't believe in two freaking dieties in the first place?

Why should I care about archangels and demons when I don't believe they exist.

Chaos magick is perfect for a beginner because you are not obligated to believe in anything except what you want to believe.


Simply, why waste your time with the Tree of Life and giving a damn about Ancient Hebrew and Kabbala ideas mixed with ancient Roman/Greek philosophies from bunch of dudes that dudes who liked to wear hooded capes over their heads from the Medieval times....


Chaos Magick makes sense and it is very simple. All the rest is that Harry Potter over ritualized bullshit for people who have nothing better to do than to make magick some nuclear physicist project with all that mind numbing contrived mysticism.

I am starting to remember why I have been avoiding forums for a while now. Any idiot is allowed an opinion on them:)

[Venefica]

Unfortunately yes, this is a public forum, anyone can spew their opinions onto it. And normally I would say that is a good thing, we need allot of different opinions to make a whole, but sometimes...well I guess everyone is entitled to their opinions, but some opinions just do not make sense and seam to come from a total lack of knowledge and an extreme need to be angry at everyone and everything.

[Jastiv]

I know I am on some email lists. This one list I was on the would boot anyone who wasn't sufficiently "spiritually evolved." Others of them have a huge approval process and are moderated. One even had a rule about having to receive email and not using the web-only option.

I really understood the need for them at the time when I was going through that whole dark night of the soul, worrying the magic did not exist and I was just crazy, and then worrying that it did and all kinds of awful occult things were going to happen to me.

While I think it is great that these lists exist, I think that email lists in general can have drawbacks. With email lists, you tend to get a smaller more involved community. They do not really work that well when you have a large number of people who are all interested in very different things. They also do not work that well for people who are occasional, more casual participants, since if you get email delivered you have to keep going through it so it is harder to just find the threads that are of interest.

The other thing is I think email lists tend to invite drama and flame wars more so than message boards. I've seen it happen on several email lists I have been involved in (yes even on non-occult topics)

[Venefica]

I do not think we should start to boot pepole of the forum, there are forum rules, disobeying them can lead to banning, but other than that, I think this should stay an open forum for anyone to express their opinions. But however that is a topic for another tread as this one was about where to begin studying the occult.

[Zelos]

The best advice I can give you is to simply stop asking others questions that are best answered by yourself. As long as you are true to your own will, and look inward for the answers, you will always find a way to accomplish your goals. This does not mean to ignore the aid of those around you, but rather to disallow them undue influence over your sense of self and the way that you practice.

On an unrelated note, sekhem has done absolutely nothing wrong. He has openly stated his views, perfectly in response to the original topic (regardless of it actually being a reply to a different poster.) This forum is NOT going to be allowed to fall into the depths of the cliquish hells that dominate the internet simply because a higher number of posters have differing views with a smaller number. From now on, instead of simply referring to him as an idiot, I suggest you all attempt to rebuke his claims with actual experiences, data you have collected, and your own personal views. Can any of you explain exactly why you should "waste your time with the Tree of Life and giving a damn about Ancient Hebrew and Kabbala ideas mixed with ancient Roman/Greek philosophies from bunch of dudes that dudes who liked to wear hooded capes over their heads from the Medieval times...."?

Perhaps this man, despite his hostile attitude, or perhaps even because of such, he may actually have a point? Why should one merely follow in the footsteps of the dead and burried, of old imposed laws which may no longer hold strength over a world which openly disbelieves them, and expect them to hold sway over those who in their very essence oppose the rigidity of such doctrines? For the sake of argument, I must state that yes, these old roads still may hold power and use, but I for one am unwilling to stumble a path grown over, broken, and littered with the corpses of those afraid to go outside of their parent's home, when I can stand on my own, look up at the sky and declare to it in an act of true will, defiant to all laws, that I am a god unto myself, of myself, and forever my own, and may all those who dare challenge my will, for favor of their decrepit shadowed veils shall one day open their eyes to the truth of self, and when they do, may them fall to their knees in terror of what they truly are. For they are but corpses unborn.

[Venefica]

First of all it is not Sekhem's opinions that have made me call him an idiot, it is his extremely hostile attitude of attacking anyone that do not agree with him, or practice just like him. That is both a prime example of the bad manners which you complain dominate the internet, and it is both and insult to the paths he attack, and Chaos magick that he claim to be practicing and the person he attacks. And such behavior really warrant no response. Do you feel the need to prove your opinions to a raging sulfur spitting conservative Christian? Or a Atehist that call you stupid for believing in anything but cold science? It is the same with this person, he is not worth the effort to have a discussion with.

Now, I be more than happy to discuss the value of old magickal methods in the modern day, or whatever or not newer methods are more effective or not as long as the person I discuss with show respect for both me and the paths being discussed. It is possible to disagree with a path and still treat the subject matter with respect. To me it do not matter it Sekhem have a point or not, when he acts like a angry brat, that is what he will be treated as. If he wish to discuss the matter with me, he will have to act like an adult.

And note that he have used far stronger words than idiot about me in other treads, I usually do not complain as I give as good as I take, but if you are going to complain about some posters calling Sekhem and idiot then perhaps you will also want to look at personal attacks he have come with against me and others as well, just to be fair here.

[xcb]

I would just like to chime in with nothing particularly interesting and/or new:

It seems to me that Chaos is a pretty easy place to start for purely "magical" results. I do think it's effective enough to produce results for a rank beginner, at least it was for me when I started a good many years ago.

The only downside to the chaote paradigm is that it seems rather immature, insofar as it places results as paramount. Eventually, for me, results became far less important than they had been initially. After dozens of magical triumphs, I found myself without anything at all left to do, and feeling quite vapid and grabby. This, I think, is where the various mystery schools step in and provide some sort of rationale for existence, above and beyond simply receiving-ness. The left hand path, for me, was a empty and unsatisfying dead end.

If you're the kind of person who is looking for "answers" and not just "events", then there are lots of different paths. I wound up in a fairly orthodox Christianity. I'm sure that there are other right hand path traditions that you will find both useful and fulfilling.

If you choose to go the chaos route, I'd just warn you about the possibility that it can and does transmogrify itself into a certain nihilism. And it can be very, very ugly. Stick to the high roads and you should be just fine.

[Venefica]

Chaos magick have the one huge benefit of taking whatever works from whatever source and using it. That means that if you like Neo Pagan candle rituals, Ceremonial magick ritual and summoning Mickey Mouse as a Spirit then you can. Yes it is really result oriented. But I do not see what is immature about being result focused. Some pepole come to the occult and practice it as a religion, it is the Spiritual development that are important, and that is fine, I respect that. But many also come to gain results in this physical world, and that is no less worth.

That being said far from all Chaotes are Left Hand Path practitioners, and there is nothing wrong with being on the Left Hand Path.

As for beginners, I still think that a more structured path is more easy to begin with. it is like with Martial Arts, you begin with one from, you master it, and then you begin and mix and match from various forms. You do not begin mixing and matching at the start for you need a solid, and firm foundation.

[xcb]

I found my experiences with the left hand path to be enormously boring after a fairly short time. It also has no practical applications outside of a fairly insular and egocentric realm. For me, that is what I consider "immature". Being grabby and self-driven is something that people typically grow out of. It's the reason that so many young people are driven to such insane depths as teenagers - the self-instilled pariah yells of ZOMG NOBODY UNDERSTANDS ME BECAUSE I AM EXTRAORDINARILY UNIQUE. Most people don't carry this throughout their life. And spiritual folks, seekers perhaps, usually make conscious strides to diminish this sort of behaviour in themselves. Some occult paths are probably very good for this. LHP is not - and I still maintain that earthly pleasures are a dead end. Spiritually, logically, socially, etc.

[Venefica]

I found my experiences with the left hand path to be enormously boring after a fairly short time.

That is why they say different strokes for different folks. You might not have found much use for the Left Hand Path, that however do not mean that others do not find value in it.

It also has no practical applications outside of a fairly insular and egocentric realm. For me, that is what I consider "immature". Being grabby and self-driven is something that people typically grow out of.

Here I would have to say prove it. This is the typical statement that Right Hand Path practitioners come with to belittle Left Hand Path practitioners, while Left Hand Path practitioners then to say that that Right Hand Path pepole are weak, sheep, slaves and so on, both things just show a lack of knowledge and acceptance for the values of the other group and is generally bullshit.

[xcb]

In fact, I have DOULOSXYIY tattooed on my right forearm. Roughly, Slave of Christ Jesus. So yeah. I am a slave. And a sheep. And weak. They're right.

And I would never say that the LHP doesn't work - because it does. Brilliantly. But it only works in a very small sort of way. A way that I found personally unsatisfying, and which, in my experience, a lot of other LHP eventually find unsatisfying as well, insofar as it is impotent to answer important questions in an intellectually rigorous way.

[Venefica]

For me it is Right Hand path which appear limited. I could never imagine living my life for someone else. I consider myself a kind person. I do like helping others, but to live for others, no. I could never do that. To me if one do not focus on one self, then what is the point of living? And quite a few pepole start out as Right Hand Path and decides that is not for them and move on the to Left Hand Path to. People often start out as one thing and move on to the other when they find one or the other path to be more suited to them.

[xcb]

I think you've probably hit upon something. I happen to believe in demons, for example. I see no reason why you can't enjoy your temporal, demonic enjoyments whilst I carry on being a doofus slave tempted by otherworldly matters. That's part of the beauty of the world, after all - free will and all of the intrigue that comes along with it.

Don't be offended when I say that I'm going to pray for you.

[Venefica]

Don't be offended when I say that I'm going to pray for you. smile

I am not offended as long as such prayers are not directed at trying to change me or my life. I see prayers as magick, and general players for someone, that is just a positive thing. Thank you.

[xcb]

Uh oh. I hope this doesn't turn into some Crowleyian magic war thing. Forget I mentioned it!

[Venefica]

I do not really see how you get to the conclusion that this is a Crowlyan magick war from me asking you not to pray for my mind to be changed to fit what you think is good better. That is like you saying no thank you I do not want a piece of cake, and I say you are trying to pick a fight. I do not see any reason or logic in your post.

[xcb]

(it was a joke)

[DrMummy]

As a devoted Chaote, (oxymoron ftw)I feel I must say something.

The whole right-hand/left hand paradigm is fucking stupid.

By stupid, I mean counterproductive.

I believe this for the following reason.

No one who ever did anything worthwhile has followed either path exclusively. From my perspective, the LHP is a direction of interaction with reality, while the RHP is a direction of processing reality. Without doing both, we couldn't function as human beings.

To put it another way, it doesn't matter whether you're turning left or right, when you choose the same direction over and over, you'll just end up running around in circles.

People who devote themselves entirely to the LHP tend to become self-centered and wrapped up in controlling stupid, meaningless details in their life.

People who wholly devote themselves to the RHP tend to become rather paralyzed, as they don't want to to disturb the holy order of the universe. They tend to get lost in the universe that they've chosen, and distrust the needs and desires they have that don't fit withing the elaborate framework they've constructed.

Unfortunately, the larger and more elaborate their reality becomes, the more fragile it becomes, as connections made during contemplation often has no real relation to what happens in consensus reality. And as soon as one leaves their castle it collapses. This leaves a lot of RHP'ers terrified of leaving their castle.

Folks on the LHP have bricks and mortar, but no plans. Folks on the RHP have elaborate blueprints, but no experience in handling building materials.

So don't wax on about which direction is better. All that really matters is where you're trying to go.


(NOTE: I wrote more on the RHP, not because I'm picking on it, but because I have more experience within it.)

[xcb]

I refuse to believe that a chaote would be ambivalent about picking sides.

Shocking, I say. Shocking.

[Shaam]

To put it another way, it doesn't matter whether you're turning left or right, when you choose the same direction over and over, you'll just end up running around in circles.

Kudos to you, my friend.

You hit the nail right on the head.

[xcb]

The whole "walking in circles" things sounds like a very nice inside for a greeting card or motivational coffee mug, but it's completely illogical.

If you're given three choices - forward, left or right, choosing forward and either left or right is the only way to eliminate the possibility of going back precisely the way you came while still managing to progress.

[Venefica]

It is right that no one is following one path exclusively. At lest not anyone sane. When I say following the Left Hand Path or the Right Hand Path I mean by that someone which is clearly leaning more over to one side than the other.

I refuse to believe that a chaote would be ambivalent about picking sides.

I think you misunderstand, a Chaote have no need to pick a side, sides are picked, changed and rejected as needed all after what is desirable or practical at the moment. Being a Chaote means not being bogged down by dogma or set sides, or at least try not to be, but just go with whatever works at the moment.

[xcb]

That's officially the last time I ever type anything sarcastic into this forum, ever.

[Shaam]

The whole "walking in circles" things sounds like a very nice inside for a greeting card or motivational coffee mug, but it's completely illogical.

If you're given three choices - forward, left or right, choosing forward and either left or right is the only way to eliminate the possibility of going back precisely the way you came while still managing to progress.

I think what was meant by 'walking in circles', is that when one never steps out of their comfort zone, they have effectively reached an impasse with themselves, as far as the forward motion of their learning process goes. Personally, I think this can be said for people who 'over label' things.

While walking forwards, then right or left..is pretty much common sense....it is surprising how many people refuse to look at it this way,