Chaote or Poser?

Occult Forum Archive · Sat Feb 12, 2005 8:13 am

Original post: lunukaos

[QUOTE=Horus]What about this... since everything is permitted, what if I am aware of the possibility of alternate paradigms, but it is my choice to remain a dogmatic ceremonial/thelemite. Can I say I am a chaote using a permanent Thelemic/Ceremonial paradigm. Can I still get the shirt, the card, and acceptance by the in crowd :lol:. Do I lose points for not asserting that my reality model is the largest and most-META-est (or contradictory as the case may be)?[/QUOTE]Yes. As much disagreement over what Chaos Magick is, chaotes "do what works for them. If CM/thelema is the best for you, and works for you, I don't care if you ever fire a sigil or create a servitor.
No points lost in my book.
*edit* I'm not a fan of defining what Chaos Magick is, but I really like what it does.

Occult Forum Archive · Sat Feb 12, 2005 4:47 pm

Original post: babyalien

a poser is someone who does new actions just for another in such away, that it does not sum up the poser's true nature.

if that did'nt make sense, then don't question it...

Occult Forum Archive · Sat Feb 12, 2005 6:53 pm

Original post: Chaotic_Shadow

"That's quite reassuring, actually. It lends itself nicely to the chaos of the non-path. Fake it till you make it. We're reserved to call others posers because we ourselves aren't entirely sure what we're doing. That would explain all of the delicious absurdity that abounds. Mmm ... absurdity." qoute of rin

Mmm absurdity is very yummy and quite intriguing... I would have to agree with that Rin [chuckles]hmm... well this is a amusing question and train to thought... [purrs] there is strength not being bound to one particular 'path' and being perfectly adaptable [chuckles and then wanders off because his attention span is short and the spirits are coalescing]

Shades · Post by **Shades** » Tue May 26, 2009 7:21 pm

Original post: aniler

May i interject a question to you poser or chaote . You use whatever you deem usefull to your advancement . So what makes you a chaote instead of just for example an eclectic ceremonial mage ?

A good question.

Kath · Post by **Kath** » Tue May 26, 2009 8:29 pm

chaos magic is a philosophy regarding one's approach to magical practice. its not a practice form in itself.

So what makes you a chaote instead of just for example an eclectic ceremonial mage ?

two thoughts,
one, not all chaotes use ceremonial magic. that would be a gross misconception. so i'm going to remove the word ceremony from your statement so that I can address your query more accurately.

two, all chaotes are 'eclectic magicians'. but not all eclectic magicians are chaotes. you may view chaotes as a subset of the larger grouping 'eclectic magicians'. chaotes adhere to a particular 'metaparadigm' or a paradigm regarding how one approaches paradigms. This metaparadigm contains a few very simple baseline concepts such as "nothing is true, everything is permissible" (among other less vaguely stated ideas). So you may accurately regard chaos magic as a particular school of thought under the umbrella of eclectic magical practice.

awriterscorned · Post by **awriterscorned** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:42 am

For me that's a hard one to answer because I personally dislike the word "poser." It has its uses but it gets overused. If you're using Wiccan magic or Wiccan inspired magic because "well Chaos is kewl but I so like Wicca and wanna have a pentagram background on myspace lawlz!" then you're a poser. If you're using Wiccan magic because "everything is permitted" or just because it seems right in a situation, it's not a big deal. Then again I think a lot of times the idea of Wiccan magic is very different from the Chaos philosophy, but still...

To me it seems like people who are Chaotes won't care about "poser" vs. not if they know what they're doing works and goes along with their will. Then again I am not an expert.

xcb · Post by **xcb** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:27 pm

I made an account to reply to this question.

Hello.

Anywho - I am a chaote who is knee deep into Christian poseurdom. I had enormously efficacious results with chaos for nearly a decade, but eventually I found it almost too easy and decided to try to find something a little more hardcore. Thus, I took it upon myself to wade into Christianity and have found myself rather purposefully stuck. Am I a Christian, in that I believe that Jesus is the one true son of God and that it is only through him that we may find salvation? Absolutely. Do I believe that there are lots of different roads to the Godhead? 100%. Are Hindus going to hell? Yes. Are Hindus going to hell? No. Does utility justify the chaote regimen? Not really. What does this have to do with anything? Nothing.

It's hard for me to fathom that any sincere chaote would give a damn about labels when we should know - instinctively, in the gnosis sense of the word - that labels are meant to be discarded. This is why it's so important to never use labels, and wisely and routinely.

We are, by definition, poseurs. And it is through this poseuring that we are best able to grasp the transcendent nature of the Christic/Buddhic/Osirian/Krishna consciousness that will ultimately lead to our undoing and/or immortality. Getting caught up in the paradigm is every bit as important as throwing it away, in some ways. The meta-conception that I Know This Is Just A Joke isn't nearly as interesting as I No Longer Wish This To Be A Joke - for me, at any rate. There's only so much satiated desire that one can stomach before it becomes an awful bore.

I guess what I'm saying is that, for me at any rate, chaos was a very fine path until it got boring and poseuring became reality, and reality became solid and the paradigm shifted outward instead of inward.

I have no point.

Mist · Post by **Mist** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 3:17 am

Question: How can you be a Chaos Magician if you even call yourself one?
I thought Chaos Magic was a method of approach, not a label for a "school of magic" or a way to mock "posers" like a bunch of freaking "Goths" talking about what is "Goth" or not.
I find it possibly limiting to one's abilities and way of thinking.

If I am wrong at this well, just tell me and I will care no more for the subject.

xcb · Post by **xcb** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 3:25 am

Nobody can be a chaote unless they have signed up via their local alderman and have paid the yearly dues. At that point all chaotes receive their admittance card, their yearly salvia divinorum ration, and the hummus of their choice. Goths are strictly verboten, as are hippies, punks, squares, mods, new wavers, preps, socs, greasers, homosexuals, heterosexuals, and women.

Please consult the chaote constitution if you have more questions pertaining to the rules.

Mist · Post by **Mist** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 3:33 am

xcb wrote:Nobody can be a chaote unless they have signed up via their local alderman and have paid the yearly dues. At that point all chaotes receive their admittance card, their yearly salvia divinorum ration, and the hummus of their choice. Goths are strictly verboten, as are hippies, punks, squares, mods, new wavers, preps, socs, greasers, homosexuals, heterosexuals, and women.

Please consult the chaote constitution if you have more questions pertaining to the rules.

According to you, chaotes would be rich, narcissistic hermaphrodites that like heavy metal? Everything suddenly makes sense to me! ...or does it? xD

lol

Post by **Venefica** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 9:44 pm

Poser is a idiot term used by those that need to feel special about the way they do things. The way I see it how can a path that have as is most important concept nothing is true everything is permitted say that someone is not truly following it. Truth is relative, if someone say they are a Chaote, then I take their word for it.

xcb · Post by **xcb** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 9:49 pm

Truth isn't relative, but words certainly are.

Shaam · Post by **Shaam** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 12:42 am

Well, words may be relative, but the meanings of them aren't,,..lol.

Post by **Venefica** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 12:37 pm

That truth is relative, or rather that there are no truth, not just in words, but in reality, that this world we live in, that what we see as reality is not true, it is a reflection, a shared delusion and by that it can be manipulated at will, that is the very foundation of Chaos magick. That belief is what separates Chaos magick from having an eclectic path. Nothing is true, one can summon Mikey Mouse as a Spirit, or make one for oneself, or use a magick system and cosmology from a fantasy book because fiction is no more or less true than this so called reality. It is not just about twisting words, but about twisting reality itself.

xcb · Post by **xcb** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 3:26 pm

The fact that one can manipulate reality doesn't mean that truth is relative, simply that there is some sort of mechanism that allows us to manipulate reality.

And if truth is truly relative, then the notion that truth is relative is relative, which would mean that, strictly speaking, truth isn't relative is a necessary and logical extension of your core belief.

Shaam · Post by **Shaam** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 5:46 pm

Well, whose 'truth' would be relative?

What one person considers as 'truth', may not be another man's 'truth....

xcb · Post by **xcb** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 5:55 pm

I'm not saying that I know what the truth is, but I feel quite comfortable saying that there's one out there. Even if the ultimate truth is simply Everything Is Totally Freaking Random, there's still an underlying truth that's immutable. If there's no truth, then saying "there's no truth" can't be a truth, meaning there's truth.

And it also helps to demonstrate how words are relative!

Shaam · Post by **Shaam** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 6:48 pm

Words are only relative until someone pops them like a balloon...lol:rolleyes:

Post by **Venefica** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 7:24 pm

The fact that one can manipulate reality doesn't mean that truth is relative, simply that there is some sort of mechanism that allows us to manipulate reality.

Off course, however the core belief of Chaos magick is that reality is relative and that nothing is true.

And if truth is truly relative, then the notion that truth is relative is relative, which would mean that, strictly speaking, truth isn't relative is a necessary and logical extension of your core belief.

Actually here you are missing the logic. Yes everything is relative, including the fact that all is relative, that however do not mean that there is one true way, only that you can, and let me stress can, create one true way for yourself.

xcb · Post by **xcb** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 7:33 pm

I wouldn't disagree, necessarily. But when you say something along the lines of "only the individual can create his or her own reality", this is, so far as I'm concerned, "truth".

Perhaps it's worth taking a moment to define what truth is.

I would say that it's something along the lines of That Which Cannot Be Avoided. Something so everpresent, so inherent to the fabric of the cosmos, that it simply Is. Something that, were it to disappear, the cosmos would no longer be recognizable. I don't see how or why being able to manipulate reality should automatically dispense with the notion of truth. The ability to create and distort and manipulate reality is, to my way of thinking, simply a truth. It doesn't make sense for this to mean that everything is relative, because it's not. Were reality NOT malleable, it would no longer be anything like the reality which we currently share - it would be some HP Lovecraft color-we-can't-understand thing that would mark a radical shift in the truth of the reality that exists plainly and manifestly.

Perception can certainly be relative. Truth cannot.

Post by **Venefica** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 11:19 pm

I wouldn't disagree, necessarily. But when you say something along the lines of "only the individual can create his or her own reality", this is, so far as I'm concerned, "truth".

Is it? Perhaps it is only my truth.

I would say that it's something along the lines of That Which Cannot Be Avoided. Something so everpresent, so inherent to the fabric of the cosmos, that it simply Is. Something that, were it to disappear, the cosmos would no longer be recognizable.

I believe there are no such thing.

I don't see how or why being able to manipulate reality should automatically dispense with the notion of truth.

Off course not, many magick paths believe in a absolute truth and still practice reality manipulation, that is after all the basic of what magick is. However I am speaking about Chaos magick, and one of the tenets of Chaos magick, one of the defining traits of it the absence of absolute truth. It is the same that not all magick paths believe in the power of Spirits, but when one is discussing Shamanism it is a bit of a moot point to argue that not all magick paths see magick the same way.

Witch leads me to wonder why you use the term Chaote about yourself? I am not saying you can not do so, however I find it a bit strange that you choose to identify with a occult path of witch you do not share the most basic belief. To me you seam to be more a Christian eclectic than a Chaote. Being eclectic, picking and choosing from various traditions do not make one a Chaote.

xcb · Post by **xcb** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 11:28 pm

Your dogmatic adherence to the "nothing is true" saying is every bit as hilarious as my own crummy flavor of chaos.

What you're suggesting, in essence, is that this "nothing is true" thing is true. Do you not see that? Can you not see the inherent logical problem therein? Are you unable to grasp that this impossible-to-grasp zennish koan is the real essence of the chaotic path?

You seem to have a particularly alarmingly narrow view of what chaos is capable of.

I'm quite willing to allow you your space to enjoy your paradigm, yet you seem quite fine in trying to abrogate mine. Curious, that.

slnuzicb · Post by **slnuzicb** » Tue May 10, 2011 9:53 pm

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Metaller · Post by **Metaller** » Tue May 10, 2011 10:25 pm

I think that a chaote stops being one and becomes a grotesque imitation of it when he petrifies his rites. chaos is chaos, not an industrial magic work. if you are a chaote and want to use wiccan rites you will be a wiccan during the rite, but the whole thing is sponsored and powered by chaos. and if you go and say that you are now a wiccan you are lying and willing to do it. I'm not a zoroarchian, nor a cultor of chutulu, I'm a chaote and no one can say nothing about it even if one day I start praying chutulu. if you start to define chaos magic in a standard way killing your imagination and stopping your possibilities you lack of imagination wich is one of the things that makes chaos the way it is so until you don't recover it you still could be a magician of some order, but you aren't using chaos anymore so you aren't a chaote even if you say so and if it's your will. chaos isn't something that you could draw in the rock but something you have to sing of everyday in a different and original way.

hope you liked the metaphors and reflections on chaos