Questions while reading Liber Null

awriterscorned · Post by **awriterscorned** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:38 pm

As the title says, I'm reading Liber Null. I don't know if I aspire to be a Chaote but I do aspire to understand. And I'm not trying to be offensive to anyone's ideologies, I just don't understand them fully.

1.) Have any of you actually had success with temporarily wearing and shedding personalities? I am getting the impression that if you want to see legitimate positive change in the world (and you have specific things you want to happen like gay rights because you're gay or women's rights or what-have-you), Chaos is not for you. If you have to shed the personality that cares about your values even temporarily then you are an opposing force to what you originally believed. Therefore, is there any real point to doing magic? If you don't truly believe anything but can do everything (for better or worse), it seems like magical workings wouldn't serve much purpose other than "I can do this so I will."

2.) It says in Liber Null that a Black Magician is bound to Earth forever. If we're working toward uniting Kia with Chaos, wouldn't that be counter-intuitive? And how can acts in a single lifetime affect "forever"? If "everything is permitted," and the ultimate goal is to make choices that will free you from limitations of any kind, isn't being eternally bound to Earth the ultimate limitation?

3.) When reading about rites of desire, it seems to make the assumption that ANY given practitioner will desire to engage in coitus or heterosexual intercourse. What of a person who legitimately does NOT desire this (someone who is homosexual or asexual, a rape survivor, etc)? If the rite is about desire, forcing themselves in order to complete some type of task is counter-intuitive, right?

4.) When passing through different "selves" and ideologies, how does one simply force the mindset of an Atheist, a Christian, pro-choice/pro-life, etc.? Is this similar to the idea in behavioral psychology that actions lead the way and feelings/thoughts will follow?

5.) The book speaks both of a "True Will" and of a "don't get bogged down to one path" sort of mentality. If my true will ends up "to write a novel about Blah Philosophy and help people X," then wouldn't shedding my personality to not believe in Blah or care about people X be a bad idea?

Thank you to anyone who reads/takes the time to answer any one of these. If I sound skeptical, I try to take a skeptical approach to everything I read.

DrMummy · Post by **DrMummy** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:49 pm

Just do what you understand, to the extent you're comfortable with. Then, go outside your comfort zone to keep things interesting.

It's not like the Bi(b)le, It's just a book to get your own ideas from. That's the point. DO what comes from YOU. Do what YOU find interesting.

xcb · Post by **xcb** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 12:03 am

You have an extraordinarily base understanding of the Bible if you see it as some sort of easy to understand rulebook. Perhaps you should take five seconds to Google things that you're ignorant of before spreading childish dogmas in public forums.

Allow me:

http://www.google.com/search?q=Bible+esoteric

For the original poster: You've absolutely hit the nail on the head in your first point. Chaos magic lends itself very much to left hand path dealings, and if you have ideals that you refuse to give up because you find them essential to your concept of self, you'll have a very hard time with it. Especially, I should think, if those ideals have anything to do with higher-order concepts such as Justice, Love, Equality - any of the big, important nouns, really. It's a rather bleak but effective system.

Further, all LHP methodologies that willingly create separation from the Godhead by asserting the primacy of corporeal reality over transcendent love and oneness do have the nasty side effect of potentially tethering one's soul to the earthly realms. Hell, some might call it. This is mere speculation on my part, but I think that's what's being warned against in your second point. Some belief systems don't mind giving up oneness with the Godhead for the possibility of an eternity of Earthly pleasure, I guess.

xcb · Post by **xcb** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 12:27 am

I'd just like to add one thing, which is simply that Chaos magic is a very good vehicle to learn about lots of new and different things. When I was using it in the way that you describe "I can do this so I will" (very apt description, I might add), I did so because of I was internally shiftless, selfish and miserable. However, Chaos magic laid the groundwork for a path out of that sort of mindset, so I still think of it fondly. It's a nice place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.

kiren · Post by **kiren** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:15 am

Chaos magic is not about what Liber Null says... chaos magic is what YOU make it.
feel free to mix it up. never be afraid to change or loose your mind.

awriterscorned · Post by **awriterscorned** » Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:35 am

Heh if I were afraid to lose my mind I'd never do anything xD. Thanks for the advice. I don't know that I'm as inherently opposed to the LHP as I used to be. A lot of things I thought were true about it don't seem to be anymore.

Gandridur · Post by **Gandridur** » Thu Aug 05, 2010 12:44 pm

awriterscorned wrote:
2.) It says in Liber Null that a Black Magician is bound to Earth forever. If we're working toward uniting Kia with Chaos, wouldn't that be counter-intuitive? And how can acts in a single lifetime affect "forever"? If "everything is permitted," and the ultimate goal is to make choices that will free you from limitations of any kind, isn't being eternally bound to Earth the ultimate limitation?

If you know anything about tantra and vama marga there is no difference between the material world and the spiritual. Many religions have the goal to leave the material world as they see it as evil,bad and impure and a obstacle for the spiritual progress, while in vamachara anything can be used for the spiritual progress. And you have to remember that the occult and magical world is full of paradoxes. Life gets its meaning through the paradoxes and that's the way to understand its core. Without paradoxes there are no depth in anything. And religions try to cut away things they dont understand or like. They create a religious system that is limited and says everything about the system and not enough about the rest of the world(s)that exist outside their narrow system.