Norse paganism surviving traditions

[Mr.Angelof]

This folkpoem is from the deep forest Tiveden in Sweden
it indicates that there might have been pagan traditions
surviving into modern times, The rites are described in this
folk poem documented by the folklorist Carshult (1941).

I figured this could inspire people interested in Norse Paganism.





[indent]The procession creeps on a meandering path
preferably unseen to the Troll mountains/hills.
A mass shall be held for three days,
this will be the beginning of the holiday.
The frock is long, so it reaches down to the ground,
the socks are sharply pointed,
the hood is pulled down so that the holes for the eyes fit.
Everybody looks alike except for the height,
the prelate counts their number.

The password is given in a low voice,
the prelate blows three times in a horn.
The fire is kindled with nine kinds of wood,
that is old custom.
A sacrifice is offered to the spirits,
everyone is sprinkled with the blood.
The best part is gifted to spirits,
what remains is to be consumed by the men.

In the midnight hour
when stars glitter,
the prelate asks for silence
and this is obeyed by all the men.
They fall down onto the ground,
the prelate looks grimly at the heavens.
And incantations and summons echo in the dells
the prelate is summoning spirits.

Everyone received an answer to their question,
no one heard from another man what the answer was.[/indent]


Source and more interesting info :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trollkyrka

Here is a more indepth article:
http://howlfromthenorth.blogspot.com/20 ... kyrka.html

[Nahemah]

http://cauldronborn.blogspot.com/2006/1 ... kyrka.html

Another older blog on Trollkyrka.
I do enjoy the similarities in wording between Scots vernacular and Norse.Kyrka - Kirk,both mean church or holy place.

I used to have some images but the link I had is no longer active.If I recall correctly it is an astoundingly beautiful and haunting place.

I also find it intriguing that the Tiveden forest is a borderland between Goth/Swede territories.Liminality is important isn't it?

We have capercaillies here in Scotland also,strange birds they are,lol.I am also intrigued by the Nix legend and the red waterlillies.

[Mr.Angelof]

Nice article Nahemah, I am also interested in the waterspirits of Scandinavia and northen Europe,
as a kid I was always scared of "Näcken". I guess alot has been forgotten about these ancient deities,
always nice to come across fairytales and legends that reveal information.

[Nahemah]

We have water spirits here,that manifest somewhat like Nix: the Kelpie.There are many similarities in our legends and mythology,particularly in areas here that were settled by Norse folk. We had Spae wives too.

I am looking around for those pics I used to have,there were shots of the Trollkirk cave on the inside.I found a blog with lovely photos and info on the Trollskyrka trail,link below.It's somewhere Id like to go exploring one day.Awe inspiring I think.

http://www.tabblo.com/studio/stories/vi ... ser=288014

[Philoneus Bosch]

Hi I was fascinated to see your thread on Norse survival. I hope you dont mind me butting in, but which part of Scotland do you stay in? I'm on the east coast and have found a few traces of old norse here too namely in words that were in common usage when I was a bairn and have now passed out of the dialect altogether, words like kist/cist....a box or chest;sark....a shirt and clept....known (as). Also there is an association of old Norse names and ideas within an area of about 3 sq miles.
Firstly there is a bay opposite my home town called Wormit Bay. The name derives directly from the old Norse word for a dragon,wyrm. Later peoples pronounced this place name as Wyrmit with "id/it" indicating the definite article.It is literally The place of the Wyrm. Wyrm becomes "orm" in many cases and in turn led to the creation of such place names as Ormskirk. Orm is also a variant of the name Ormundgandr,Iormundgandr, the World Serpent of Norse mythology which was widely believed to favour deep naturally occuring pools as hidey holes.When he thrashed around in his watery home storms lashed the coast.
Secondly,a couple of miles to the south of Wormit Bay is a village called Gauldry, but curiously enough the locals refer to it as The Gauldry and tell tales of how the place used to be famous for its gallows.Now,the Norse god of hanged men was? Odin,lord of all and ruler of a power called Galdra/Galdr.Wormit itself was a Norse settlement as was (The)Gauldry.
In the far north of Scotland there is a place called Ullapool...Uller's pool.Uller was a particularly unpleasant little bugger that the Norse included in their pantheon out of sheer bastardry. His particular schtick was to capture,torture and devour wayfarers. Hope this is of some use or interest to you. PB

[Nahemah]

Absolutely fascinating,Id like to talk more,so I'll come back on later today.Those words you used are all familiar to me too,yet,I live in the South West,in Glasgow.Norse travels well,lol.

more later.

[Philoneus Bosch]

Thanks Nahemah, your right ,Norse does travel well and it can be found liberally besprinkled around the coastal parts of Britain.Are there any survivals in your area that interest you most? I'm not familiar with the West Coast, I've travelled mainly on the East Coast and only really just touched upon the Highlands but Norse is increasingly hard to find there because they were a coastal dwelling people, although, saying that their words, customs and DNA are all over the Northern Isles.

[Nahemah]

Sorry for taking so long.

In my area [ Glasgow] we have Hogback gravestones,we used to have the largest collection [in one location] outside of Denmark,but unfortunately a wall collapsed and destroyed many of them.The grqveyard was next to the shipyard.We had a lot of interaction here,between Dublin and it's Norse overlords and our mixed folk of several cultures.The hogbacks sat nicely alongside Pictish and Celtic graves and the time period of the burials matches.Intermarriage and alliance was a common theme here.

http://www.citystrolls.com/people/govan-history.htm

Ivar the boneless,Viking king of Dublin [ son of Ragnar Lodbruk and general of the Gt.Heathen Army that ravaged England] hostaged the king of Strathclyde,for a year,but we didn't want him back,so didn't pay the ransom.There is a funny story that goes with that.Ivar is said to have given the ransomed Arthgal all the hospitality that rightly went with his status,but Arthgal was a misanthropic,arrogant and downright rude personality [why we didn't like him too] and he is said to have driven his hosts to the point of despair,they were glad when the date of payment passed and passed again after extension,to end his miserable whining and silence him.We were also glad as we could righfully elect a more worthy man as king...Politics eh? Lol.

There are many of our local terms and words that are of Norse origin.'Law' for hill, is just one example.

I enjoyed seeing you post 'Gey' on the forum,as in 'gey teuch'.Oh the fun I 've had trying to explain that term to folk online in the past.They can't get the pronunciation.

I fear our old words are falling out of use,so it's lovely to see others still using them too.

Spae wives have always been a feature here also.My great granny was a Spae.I didn't know Spae was a Norse term in childhood.

My brain is jam today ,but I will have athink,I know lots more,I 'm just loaded up with snot [lovely eh? soz] I 've had a sinus infection all week and I am struggling to think.

More later.

[Nahemah]

"In 2005 a study by Professor of Human Genetics Bryan Sykes of Oxford led to the conclusion that Somerled has possibly 500,000 living descendants—making him the second most common currently-known ancestor after Genghis Khan. Sykes's research led him to conclude that Somerled was a member of the Y-DNA R1a1 Haplogroup, sometimes considered the marker of Viking descent among men of deep British or Scottish ancestry."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somerled

How cool is that? Now The Gallgaels...

"The gallowglass were a mercenary warrior élite among Gaelic-Norse clans residing in the Western Isles of Scotland (or Hebrides) and Scottish Highlands from the mid 13th century to the end of the 16th century. As Scots, they were Gaels and shared a common origin and heritage with the Irish, but as they had intermarried with the 10th century Norse settlers of the islands and coastal areas of Scotland and the Picts, the Irish called them Gall Gaeil ("foreign Gaels"). Clans involved in Gallowglass were Clan MacLean, Clan MacKay and Clan MacLeod."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallowglass

More later.

I'l go south/east from the Isles and across into the South west next.

Then there comes Galloway and Dumfries.

[Philoneus Bosch]

I remember reading somewhere that the Gallowglass were drawn from selected youths and that the term was also applied to young warriors who had not completed their warrior training. The Scots equivalent being Cowan. I have traced my own family name back to a Gaelic (Erse) word meaning poet,scholar or historian, Sceolog.(apologies for any misspelling).The sceolog had (limited) magical powers but could call storms,influence the course of battles and summon a particularly vicious form of attack called the Scaith which would cause the victim to become covered in agonizing black and yellow blisters before dying, the original 'blistering criticism'?.Scaith entered into English and Scots as the word Scathe meaning 'harm'.Also the Norse had a deity called Skadi, whom I believe harmed others.
On the Norse pagan survival front I remember as a teenager visiting family in Orkney and my aunt telling me stories of the Trows (trolls) that inhabited the shoreline although the stories are now forgotten. When I was a bairn (Norse word, originally 'bjarnum'= Swedish and still in use), my mother had to go out to work and an elderly Danish wife would babysit me. She told me tales of her native land i.e Norse myths and folktales.
To this day I am drawn to the Asatru and like practices. I use runes,follow Odin and am ALWAYS polite to crows and ravens, one eyed old men and strangers met at crossroads.

[Venefica]

There are no surviving Norse paths that I know of, not if one is thinking Norse as in Scandinavian Vikings and their heritage. However we do have quite a bit of writing, both in the form of runes on stones and carved into surviving ships but also books and poems and stories. And we know that Norse religion and magick is somewhat similar to Celtic paths, of which there is even more records, so there are several groups which have taken the available information and constructed new paths in it in the tradition of the old, or at least as well as they could so there are fairly authentic paths out there. However allot of the Norse magick one find in occult books to day are just a jumble of mangled Celtic wisdom, a bit of Wicca, mated with Kiligons right out of Star Trek and throw into a horned hat to stew. Such books might be interesting, they might even be useful, but they are very far from authentic Norse religious or magickal paths. If you want authentic look to the Edda and history books about old rune carvings and the Viking ships, do not look in the New Age selection of a book store.

[Philoneus Bosch]

Beautifully put. I say we round up the tree hugging wierdos and sacrifice the bloody lot of them. Nothing but trouble and no use for anything except fuel. Really, you do have to go to the original sources to get information of any value. Even those who are or were considered among the greats of occult literature did precious little to actually illuminate the subject and the errors and misconceptions that they generated have been repeated and magnified with each retelling. bad scholarship leads to bad conclusions.

[Venefica]

I do not have a problem with three hugging and New Agers, on the contrary I have had good use of many New Age and rather fluffy techniques. What I have a problem with is presenting something as something it is not. There was a similar discussion to this on this site, I think it was on this site, concerning Celtic magick, and really I have no problem with new inventions, what I have a problem with is when these inventions is presented as the original. If someone makes a path using the old Norse Gods and make it rather modern and fluffy, I think it is just nice. I might even read up on their path. All is well, unless they try to claim that it is how the Norse faiths was originally practiced.

Far to many occult pats have what I call the Wicca syndrome. Now Wicca is a great path. I have been a Wiccan and I often use Wiccan rituals, however it is just pain silly to claim Wicca is several thousand years old. There is not one single historical fact supporting such a claim and then just saying well they where hidden and their teaching went from High Priestess to High Priestess down the ages, yeah right, even if there was a secret society, why would that society hold modern Western morality several thousand years ago for example? That is like claiming baby Christ played with GI Joes.

And this is not just a problem with Wicca, all over the Occult it seams pepole want to claim some ancient heritage for their paths, even when their claimed histories is a blatant lie if one look at historical sources. I remember arguing with someone from Aset-Ka who claimed that their religion had their basis in the coffin texts of Ancient Egypt, something which is bullshit. Why can pepole not just say, ok I made up an occult path, it was inspired by such and such and here it is for what it is worth. But oh no, pepole have to claim some ancient heritage because old is always better.

Now if someone say, we have made a new path, it is based on Norse mythology, I am fine with that. However when they claim to be a path descended in a straight line from the Vikings them self and it is blatantly false, that is a bit annoying. Now what pepole think off when they think Norway is Vikings, however the Vikings was not sweet and love and fluffy bunnies and neither where their religion. The Vikings lives in a harsh environment, with very long, very cold winters and short summers, they where a warrior culture, they where racist and they kept slaves. They where brutal bastards who would kill, maim and murder and who believed that if a man was peaceful and was a farmer or craftsman and did not go to war then he would go straight to their version of hell when he died, unless he was extraordinary handsome in which case a Goddess might pick him up as a boy toy. The Viking version of heaven was a land of eternal combat where men tore one another to bits on the battle field each day in an orgy of blood and gore before they where resurrected in the evening to sit and eat and drink and tell war stories each evening until they went to war again. Vikings did human and animal sacrifice regularly and their Gods would seriously smite you if you diseased them. Vikings would travel to other nations and pull their ships up close to peaceful settlements and they would murder the men, rape women and children and loot what they wanted of valuables and slaves and then burn the rest of the shit down. And this kind of behavior was considered good and proper. In some areas Vikings sent traders but by their very religion Vikings where a warrior pepole, all over Europe Norse men where the villeins. Now I am proud of my Norse heritage. I am proud I come from a Spiritual, strong pepole who could kick butts and take names and survive in the hostile cold of Scandinavia. However I do not turn a blind eye to the negative aspects of Viking culture either. Vikings where brutal as shit, their where a culture filled with blood where violence, honor and brotherhood where the greatest virtue, and to turn that into a love and three hugging path, that just seam wrong, at least unless one inform that the new path is a new creation and not a surviving Viking tradition. Especially since most Pagans to day would be seen as weaklings by most Vikings, suitable only to be slaves or sport and who was headed straight to hell for their peaceful ways.

[Philoneus Bosch]

I was just venting steam when I said that, having a bit of a laugh.I have no desire to see anybody hunted down and murdered.Its true what you say about the Vikings and what really annoys me is the way that some people refer to anything Norse as viking. We wouldnt get away with calling all Celts Druids.Again, poor scholarship.I could not agree more that if you come up with a new interpretation of something, say so.The desire to see any given topic as a plumbline descendant of some treasured "Tradition" is strong in people, but all the same,it is almost never true.Much of what we know about Celtic magic for instance is due directly to a load of early twentieth century fantasists reinterpreting what was left after the bloody Victorians did such a good hatchet job of our cultures and guys like Robert Graves who saw 'Celtic' culture through the lens of classicism.Most people dont even question Graves; assumptions. The book 'The White Goddess' from which large chunks of modern witchery is derived has been taken on board wholesale without question, without comment and without any further research being done.Don't get me wrong, I have no problem at all with other beliefs. I am a pagan and very interested in both the Norse and Celtic models and was a Wiccan from the age of nineteen till thirty five or so.I've been involved in most forms of magical practice and philosophy over the thirty odd years that I have been involved in this business and been disappointed in the shoddy workmanship that so many of our fellow practitioners have shown over the years and continue to show even now. It winds me right up too that your not allowed to tell them it though in case you hurt their precious feelings.
In case any other readers of this disagree with us and and still persist in thinking that the Viking path was all nobility and cuddles I have only this to say, go and look up the words "BLOOD EAGLE" and see
what you find. The Viking and Celtic paths of magic and spirituality provide useful models and wonderful symbolism but I for one would definitely NOT want to live in their world, both were bloody awfull by our modern standards.

[Nahemah]

Uncleanliness

The image of wild-haired, dirty savages sometimes associated with the Vikings in popular culture [who?] is a distorted picture of reality.[1] Non-Scandinavian Christians are responsible for most surviving accounts of the Vikings and, consequently, a strong possibility for bias exists. This attitude is likely attributed to Christian misunderstandings regarding paganism. Viking tendencies were often misreported and the work of Adam of Bremen, among others, told largely disputable tales of Viking savagery and uncleanliness.[37]

The Anglo-Danes were considered excessively clean by their Anglo-Saxon neighbours, due to their custom of bathing every Saturday and combing their hair often. To this day, Saturday is referred to as laugardagur / laurdag / lørdag / lördag, "washing day" in the Scandinavian languages. Icelanders were known to use natural hot springs as baths, and there is a strong sauna/bathing culture in Scandinavia to this day.

As for the Vikings in the east, Ibn Rustah notes their cleanliness in carrying clean clothes, whereas Ibn Fadlan is disgusted by all of the men sharing the same, used vessel to wash their faces and blow their noses in the morning. Ibn Fadlan's disgust is possibly because of the contrast to the personal hygiene particular to the Muslim world at the time, such as running water and clean vessels. While the example intended to convey his disgust about certain customs of the Rus', at the same time it recorded that they did wash every morning.

------------------------

Excerpted from here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viking

------------------------

Viking was a verb originally,to go Viking was to participate in raiding expeditions.You can thank that same Victorian romanticism for the description of all Norse peoples as being Viking.

To deny that Norse folk were traders and farmers and skilled craftsmen to boot,is to fall into the same trap as those who claim they were all violent barbarians who killed,fucked and destroyed everything they crossed.

In saying that,I am familiar with the Great Heathen Army [the Danes,Ragnarrsons,Ivar the boneless etc.] and their many exploits,the Blood eagle was only one of the rather interesting death dealing/torture techniques utilised by the Norse.Hey,so by the way, does that make crucifixion 'nice' by comparison? Or any of the many torture/murder methods used by Christian soldiers somehow,cleaner or better?

The Norse peoples were no more or less violent than the other folk living during the same period in history.Slavery was not unique to the Norse either.

Trade went as far East as the silk route.Silk undergarments were valued highly,for warmth and insulation,beneath the oilskins of the travelling traders and of course,of the Vikings too.

The skills of these hardy people were not confined to raiding and killing.They farmed in harsh lands and were rather successful at it also.The boat building skills needed for instance,required craftsman abilities and towns were commonplace along the trading routes,some Norse folks lived very settled lives indeed.Of course this dosen't negate the legendary Warrior prowess,that was real,but it wasn't the be all and end all of everything in Norse life.

We do need to be aware that many of the writings/translations that are drawn upon by certain folks were biased accounts by Christian patriarchal thinkers,who had very little understanding of Paganism and even less understanding of the cultural and social intricacies of the Northern peoples,ideas such as women holding positions of power in society,were anathema to them,for example.Looking at the Fadlan writings,he and his Muslim compatriots were just as scathing of many Norse practices,but like it says above,he listed what he saw accurately,at least.He didn't try to explain what he couldn't understand,he just wrote it down,as is.

No where here on this topic have I stated a continous line of Norse spiritual or Religious 'paths'.I think there may be a little confusion on that.I was talking of history,cultural connections/intertwinings and folklore,of which all have a rich continous seam here in Scotland and all over The Western Seaboard,down as far south as the Isles of Man [and sometimes beyond].

[I will bring further documentary evidence for my statements,of course,but please bear with me,as my wee girl is sick.Nothing major just a tummy bug,but my main job for today,is nursing,so not much time for talking here.Sorry.]

[Venefica]

The image of wild-haired, dirty savages sometimes associated with the Vikings in popular culture [who?] is a distorted picture of reality.[1] Non-Scandinavian Christians are responsible for most surviving accounts of the Vikings and, consequently, a strong possibility for bias exists. This attitude is likely attributed to Christian misunderstandings regarding paganism. Viking tendencies were often misreported and the work of Adam of Bremen, among others, told largely disputable tales of Viking savagery and uncleanliness.[37]

I doubt very much that the Vikings where more dirty ad disheveled than other pepole in the middle ages, remember this was before washing really got popular. Viking culture however did bathe and tending one's hair and person as you say where expected, nor did Vikings have as strong a superstition when it came to bathing as most of Europe of the time had. However when a group off men have been cooped up on a ship for a long time then they are bound to not look their best. Long hair was also common among men if depictions and carvings from the area is to be believed. As for savages, well the Vikings where a warrior culture who did not hesitate to wipe those they saw as weak out. I guess one can see that as savage though. So when a Viking army spilled out of their ship, I guess that wild haired savage could come to mind.

Viking was a verb originally,to go Viking was to participate in raiding expeditions.You can thank that same Victorian romanticism for the description of all Norse peoples as being Viking.

Viking loosely translated means something akin to comes from the shore and do indeed refer to those who went plundering. However it is not only Victorians who made it popular to refer to all Norsemen of the time as Viking, in Norway we call the period from 800 to 1200 the Viking area and we do say Viking culture, Viking women and so on, even if technically the rest of society was not Viking so this is common even in Norway and the rest of Scandinavia.

To deny that Norse folk were traders and farmers and skilled craftsmen to boot,is to fall into the same trap as those who claim they were all violent barbarians who killed,fucked and destroyed everything they crossed.

Definitely there where many skilled traders and we still have many of the artworks produced during the time period in our museums. Viking era Scandinavia was culturally quite rich and diverse.

The Norse peoples were no more or less violent than the other folk living during the same period in history.Slavery was not unique to the Norse either.

Here I do not agree with you. Viking culture where a warrior culture at it's heart. It's very religion was based around fighting and non combatants did go to their version of hell. Now Norse religion did not have the heaven and hell set up as Christianity do, however ending up in Hel, while that ream was not a place of eternal torment but was indeed quite pleasant, was hardly as desirable as ending up in Valhalla. Not every Norse person of that era in time was violet, off course not, but warriors and battle was glorified and for a man, being an craftsman or a farmer was not seen as equally honorable as being a warrior. Viking culture was violet, there is no doubt about that. Was that culture more violent than other cultures during the same time period, no not really, pepole all over the world killed and maimed one another. However Viking society glorified violence in their religion in a way most other religions did not, even if most religions of the time was far, far from peaceful.

In many ways Norse society of the era was fairly advanced, women could inherit and own property and while not equal to the men held positions of power in society. A volve, a female soothsayer and priestess of sort held power surpassed by only the chieftain himself, and a man's wife had allot of power in a household, society was fairly well organized, art and culture where blooming. It is definitely important to remember that the ones who went raiding was only a small part of Norse society, but it is also important not to forget that part either.

[I will bring further documentary evidence for my statements,of course,but please bear with me,as my wee girl is sick.Nothing major just a tummy bug,but my main job for today,is nursing,so not much time for talking here.Sorry.]

Aww sorry to hear that. I hope the little girl girl gets well soon.

[Philoneus Bosch]

I didnt know that the 'viking era' is a term you use too. That almost makes it ok to call them all vikings then? I have been trying for years to get people to stop calling everything Norse Viking. Scandinavians I have spoken to in the past gave me the impression that if anything you guys were embaressed by the association with Vikings. Here in Scotland many people wear their Viking ancestry with pride.

[Venefica]

We call it the Viking area yes, and some Norwegian at least is embarrassed, but it gets more and more common to be proud of our Viking ancestors. I think everyone should be proud of their ancestry.

[Philoneus Bosch]

Thank goodness for that.The Lutheran church has a lot to answer for. It is the Lutherans in your neck of the woods isnt it? There is no reason to be ashamed of the past, it wasnt you going around raping, pillaging, sacrificing people and enslaving villagers,so why be ashamed of the actions of someone who lived a thousand years ago? Most people are well aware of the sort of society that existed at that time,but prefer to focus on the good,a trait found in everywhere.We have to have a selective view of the past or else we would become bogged down in all the depressing crap that our ancestors got up to.The human being is essentially optimistic.Yay for Vikings!

[Nahemah]

Some food for thought folks.

I'll stick to European comparisons for the moment,but comparitively,over a greater area for the same period in history,there are several peoples who can rightly be justified as just as,if not more,Spiritually and culturally 'violent' as the Norse.Toltecs/Aztecs and post classical Maya being a few,who lived in the same period and also the Turkic peoples of the Sea of Grass [pre Mongol empire].

This is a repost from a forum,but I 'll check for linkage back to the magazine and edit as required later.Still a bit woozly here,sorry.

edited to add:Found it:

http://www.runestone.org/articles/celts_germans.htm






Celts and Germans
Stephen A. McNallen
Reprinted from RUNESTONE #9 & 10

The chieftain towered over his seated warriors in the smokey hall. Clatter and chatter faded and all eyes turned to this mustachioed, muscular figure who was their leader.
Raising the mead-filled horn high over the throng, he toasted the High God, the one who carries the spear and has ravens hovering about his shoulders. All shouted their approval, and another warrior rose to his feet, lofted his horn, and praised the name of the Thunderer. The others echoed him, and in the warmth of their cameraderie, they might have well been in the great hall where warriors go when they die, served by the maidens of battle from the meat of the ever-reborn swine.
A scene from viking history? An evening in a typical Germanic mead hall? No - the word picture painted here is of a feast among their cousins, the Celts.
Like most of us, it wasn't news to me that the two main tribal groupings of ancient Europe had a lot in common. Both are part of the greater Indo-European family. Their mythology shares a common structure, the material aspects of their culture are much alike, and the general heroic worldview unites both Celt and German. But this, as it turns out, is only the beginning!
The distinction we make today between these two branches of our kin arise, in no small measure, from the observations of Julius Caesar. Essentially, he declared the tribes on one side of the Rhine to be Germans, and those on the other to be Celts. In actuality, it was not that simple. Scholars now think that some groups we once labeled German, were really Celtic. Other tribes might have belonged to either classification, because we don't know what language they spoke! The clear implication is that the physical artifacts they left behind were indistinguishable, and that language is the only definite marker between the two.
Physical appearance is no clue, because the Roman commentators describe the Germanic peoples and the Celts in exactly the same terms. Both were tall, tending toward the blond, and light skinned. The word "Teuton", by the way, is cognate with the Gaelic "tuath", meaning people or tribe, which certainly points to a fundamental kinship!
For me, the clincher came when I read Hilda Davidson's Myths and Symbols in Pagan Europe (Syracuse University Press, 1988). Significantly, it's subtitled "Early Scandinavian and Celtic Religions". Page after page and chapter after chapter, she documents the similarities between the mythology, folklore, and ritual of the Germanic and Celtic peoples. I began making a list as I read, and it wasn't long before I had a couple of sheets covered with scribbled notes. I won't get bogged down in the minutia of these, but some comparisons beg to be made. To make the bulk of this material more easily accessible, I've lumped my comments into some broad categories:

GODS and GODDESSES...
The Celtic Lugh and our own Odin are much the same. Odin is father of the Gods, keeps two ravens, carries a magic spear, and has one eye. Lugh is first in the Celtic family of Gods, is linked with ravens, carries the Spear of Victory, and closes one eye when he performs fantastic deeds on the battlefield.
The Nordic Thor, whose name means "Thunderer", prizes his mighty hammer. He rides about the heavens, laughing in his red beard, in a wagon pulled by supernatural goats. Taranis of the Celts, whose name also means "Thunderer", drives a chariot behind sacred bulls. He wields the thunderbolt, whose name in the old Gaelic tongue derives from the same Indo-European root as the name of Thor's hammer, Mjolnir. Taranis, too, is pictured as having a flowing red mane.
Tyr, as our tales tell, lost his hand binding Fenris the wolf. He used to be the Sky God, scholars say, until Odin took his place. The Celtic Nuada lost his arm in battle against the Fomorians, and so Lugh - the Celtic equivalent of Odin - became leader of the Gods.
In the domain of fertility and plenty, our own Frey rules supreme among Asafolk. One of his favorite beasts is the horse, which just happens to also be sacred to Dagda, "the good God", who is Frey's Celtic equivalent.

Other divine beings...
Giants? The Celts have them just as Asafolk do; they're called the Fomorians, and the Celtic Gods battle mightily against them. Moreover, the role they play is pretty much the same - representing the forces of inertia and entropy in the cosmos.
Valkyries find their reflection in the Morrigan, fierce Goddesses of the battlefield who grant victory, spin the fates of war, and serve the heroes in the afterlife. This twin aspect - fiends of blood and death on the one hand, enticing lovers on the other - is found in both cultures. Similarly, both Celtic and Germanic sagas tell of supernatural women warriors who instruct and initiate the chosen heroes. Brynhild teaches Sigurd hidden magical lore, and the female chieftain Scathach ("Shadow") takes the Irish Cu Chulain under her care and makes him the warrior he is destined to become. It is probably no accident that Sigurdand Cu Chulain are descended from Odin and Lugh, respectively.
Consider the "lesser" beings, the ones that seldom figure in myth and poetry, but who make the life of the common man and woman more bearable. The land spirits, for example, are alike in both cultures. Elf lore, and the connections of these wights to the ancestors, was recognizably the same to the ancient Teuton and his or her Celtic contemporaries.


RELIGIOUS LORE and PRACTICES...
I referred to virtually identical warrior paradises in the scene which opened this article, but the overlap between Celtic and Germanic lore goes far beyond this.
Bogs throughout Northern Europe received sacrifices from Celt and German alike. Weapons and armor captured in battle, food and beakers, miscellaneous items - all were deposited in lakes and marshes in the same way, to the point that we can't even tell which finds are German and which are Celtic.
When the Druids sacrificed to the Gods, the blood from an animal was sprinkled with a sprig of greenery on the assembled people, so the divine energy inherent in blood could be directly transferred to them. In historical Asatru, our forebears did exactly the same thing in the course of a sacrifice or blot.. (Today, modern practitioners of both religions use mead or other fermented fluid in this role.)
Across the length and breadth of our European homeland, our ancestors honored the Gods in the open air, because we thought it inappropriate to shut them up into limiting, lessening structures like the Christian churches. Similarly, in the earliest days, our representations of the Gods and Goddesses were simple indeed - often carved from pieces of wood to which Nature had already given the basic shape, awaiting only a few refinements from human hands.
These customs accurately describe Celts as well as Germans.
Tribesmen of both groups used intoxicating drink in religious ritual. Often this was mead, but it could be ale as well. And, while we're considering altered states of consciousness, let's remember the fit or frenzy of the Odin-gripped warriors, the berserkers. In old Ireland, essentially the same warrior's madness bore the name of "{\i ferg} ".
Readers of the Norse stories will remember how Sigurd the Volsung killed the dragon Fafnir and roasted its heart. When he burned his finger, he stuck it in his mouth and found that he could understand the speech of birds. The Irish hero Fergus gained the same gift when he singed his finger while cooking a salmon over a fire.

MAP OF THE UNIVERSE...
When we look at the cosmology of the Teutons and that of the Celts, we can't help but see the likeness. Both have the giant tree, the center of the cosmos and indeed the framework in which all the worlds are found: to Asafolk, it's Yggdrasil; the Celts call it Bile .
The other key component of the universe in ancient Germania was the Well of Wyrd, containing the deeds that make up the past. Drinking from its waters gives wisdom, and Odin gave up one of his eyes for the privilege. As it turns out, the Celts have an almost identical well; hazel nuts fall into it where they are eaten by the Salmon of Wisdom.

IN CONCLUSION.....
The only real differences between Germanic and Celtic religion seem to be the names by which the Gods are called. A viking of the tenth century would likely have felt quite comfortable in a Celtic ritual among the Gauls a thousand years earlier. Celtic religion deviates from the "Asatru norm" no more than do, for example, a priestess of Freya in Iceland and a warrior pledged to Wotan in Germany in Herman's time. Indeed, one is inclined to say that there is only "European religion" - and that the Germanic and Celtic beliefs are two expressions of it.
So what are the implications of all this? Well, it means that the Irishman need not feel out-of-place calling on Gods more often associated with Norway's fjords than the Emerald ÃŽsles hills and valleys. Ultimately all us Northfolk are spiritual as well as genetic kin.
Also Celtic-Germanic unity flies in the face of the sometimes-herard assertions that since Europeans often boast roots in different countries we're somehow mixed ancestry. How often have you heard someone say "I'm a Heinz 57 blend...part Irish, part Swedish, with some Englis h and German thrown in?" Clearly that's not mixed at all, because the Northern peoples are essentially one, in both their physical aspects and in their ancient relgiions. We musn't let people divided us on the basis of superficialities!
Thirdly, the catalog of our similarities measn we can use the one to fill gaps in our knowldge of the other.l As we reconstitute the tapestry of our ancient Asatru beliefs, there will be holes where the moths of time and persecution have done their work. But if we know the common pattern and how it's woven in the Celtic material, we can patch the holes with greater confidence.
Enough! All this scholarship makes thirsty work! I'm going to pour a fine bottle of Guiness into my mead horn, and toast all things Celtic/Nordic...Skoal, and Slainte, to you!

[Philoneus Bosch]

Nahemah, thank you for such a wonderfully presented and cogently argued article. Would you mind if I took your work and put it in my Favourites? You cover many of the points that I myself have made when comparing and contrasting the Celtic and Norse cultures to friends and in some places say much more than I ever did.However, I feel that I should point out a couple of things that might cause argument or confusion, namely that the cultures we refer to as Celtic actually have no such name, it was very much a convenience to label them thus as we dont really know what they called themselves, the term 'celt' being a reference to their axes (celtae) and was apparently pronounced 'seltae'.Admittedly the similarities in their art forms is surprising, but it appears that the beautifully complex knotwork that seems to typify the Celtic originated in Britain and Brittany and was copied (poorly) by the heathenish Tuetons.I have long held the theory that the knots originally had a meaning and could be 'read' by their creators. There is a rather good example in Nigel Pennick's 'Rune Magic'(mentioned in an earlier post)of a knot symbol intended to 'bind' a negative/demonic/devilish force from attacking.This self same knot can be found in other other examples of celtic art (but without the obvious attributes that Mr P gives).
You mention that Tueton and Tuath mean much the same thing, whereas my understanding is that although Tuath does mean 'children' or 'tribe', Tueton means 'foreigner'(however, this still preserves the TWT/TVT rootform of the word (Celts have always thought of Saxons as (TWaTs).
The comparison of the Valkyrie with the Morrigan was particularly good, but unless there was some specific cultural (or religious) expression at work here then I feel that the comparison although viable was a little weak.The Valkyrie if I remember correctly (I'm working without notes here) were 12 in number whereas the Morrigan were a trinity.
Another thing that I've just remembered is this: When the Aesir first rolled into the Northern lands that their descendants now occupy, they found a pair of red haired brothers, the remnant of an older (Celtic?) people who once dwelt there.One of the brothers was called Loki.Could the name Loki have been a local pronunciation/version of the name Lugh? Loki apparently means 'log' whilst Lugh may mean something roughly equivalent to the Latin 'lux' (light).Mind you, it was not a first, when the ancestors of the current Icelanders arrived there they found a small community of Irish Christian monks who promptly upped sticks and scarpered with every visible sign of disgust at their new neighbours (given their reputation, would you blame them?).
I have to stop just now but I will return to this if possible. All in all Nahemah, I loved your article but I feel that maybe a couple of points could do with a little clarification,(9/10 = best I've read in a very long time!Do you have any more of this ?).

[Nahemah]

I'd love to take credit for that article Philoneus,but it was written by Steve McNallen,he's a much more coherent writer than I'll ever be.
I also have some small points of disagreement,but overall it's a thought provoking piece.

The older folk before the Aesir were the Vanic folks,the people of the ox cart.Those who lived in the North lands before the Van were the hunters/gathers and nomadic/semi nomadic hunters and herders.It 's harder to track the further back we go,but thankfully as the Northern and Eastern lands have opened up more,we've been able to investigate the archaeology more thoroughly than in the past.Something good that came out of the fall of communism,outside of modern politics and concerns [though some of it is still quite a hot potato,the politics surrounding the Ice mummy burials in the Altai,for instance.]

The patterns of migration are quite clearly defined.Settlements like Keirikki in Finland belonged to the older Stone age,the earlier peoples.Keirikki folk ate a lot of fish,hunted seals and whales and the settlement is coastal.There is evidence of other settlements all over the Northlands,but I 'm mentioning Keirikki cos it 's been restored,so it is a living window to the past.[It's pretty Cool].Then the Vanic folks brought cattle and dairy production with them.Diets and lifestyle changed.Then later come the Aes,a warlike folk with advanced technology[Iron].

http://www.kierikki.fi/sivu/en/kierikki ... shistoria/

That's just a few sentences,that make it seem a lot more simple and direct than it actually was.lol. Of course there are sideways movements also,people moving across the regions from the East and more from the South.

Another,maybe trivial seeming [but bear with me on that,lol] connection,Baltic Amber has been found in Neolithic tombs here in Scotland.Trade has been going on between the Northlands/across the seas, a very long time.Jet is also a commonality,with Jet from England and other sources also being found.


The Aes were conquerors then settlers.The Aes also brought Sailing,in a big way,lol,Think of sailor's knots.I was told as a kid,that you could 'tie the wind' to a ship with knots,To sail faster.I 'm not sure of the provenasnce of that one,but there are lots of old superstitions and customs that go with knotting,here in Scotland,that's for sure...

I always found it intriguing that Loki is named for his mother,Loki Laufeyson.That alone marks him out as different among the Gods.The older primal deities got subsumed and adopted into the later pantheons.Much like so many other cultures did.Loki and Hela stand out significantly.Both Loki ansd Hela kept a lot of power,Hela rather like Hecate,in the Greek pantheon.Odin could not regain his son from her,he could not force her into submission.Interesting eh?

The binding of Loki has parallels with Prometheus too.The Lugh/Light connection makes sense when I think of that.Both are to do with Fire,the fire of heaven and inspiration,the necessity of fire and the danger of fire uncontrolled.

Knot magick is a very old form.Tying knots is a binding and loosening form of sympathetic magick.The weaver's art,lol.We know the Norns are the weavers of life and death, the spinners of the rough into the workable,the tyers and dyers of the patterns and the cutters of threads.

I am rambling here,more than a bit that's why I usually go for links written by others,I do wander around a lot in my mind.Sorry.

I have more info and links I can bring,along with more of my rambling,but I 'll try and be a bit more focused later.

When my sinuses are bad I have trouble thinking properly.Bloody weather,lol.

More later.

[Nahemah]

http://www.jomsborg.pl/korzenie.php

You might like this too.

More later.

[Philoneus Bosch]

Bloody weather? Nahemah, I'm disappointed! We dont have "weather" in Scotland, we have driech. Warm driech in the summer, cauld driech in the winter and weet driech all the rest of the time.Sorry to hear you've had such bad luck with your general health and I hope your weel soon.
I used to be a sailor (Cadets)so I'm well familiar with knots and have used them myself to control winds.
In your previous post you invoke Skoal. Did you know that this name is derived from that of Skal/Skuld one of the Norns and calls upon That Which Is To Be?The fact that Loki's heritage was counted from his mother's side is interesting, could that be a Celtic thing? I'm told that the ancients reckoned their heritage from the maternal side thus making them matrilinear NOT MATRIARCHAL (fluffy bunnies please observe).The Altai bit has annoyed me something chronic over the years.I have no problem with the possibility of a bunch of Celts stravaiging into Asia. In fact I think its more than possible,but what narks me is the assumption on some people's part that they must have been Celtic because they had red hair. Few people seem to realize that Indo-European hair if preserved at burial naturally reddens with age and the so called plaids that they were clad in were not uniquely Celtic patterns, it is a simple process of vegetable dye application and a square-like pattern is the simplest pattern to create.
The Van were indeed a wandering nomadic people who followed their herds. In fact the word 'wander' comes from a root form of their name. Did you mean the Vandals were covered by this too?Were they related to the Van?
The baltic amber trade in Scotland....much or even most of the Iron Age and Bronze Age amber was sourced from the island of Ruggen ('rough')in the Baltic.I believe the island may have been a Celtic settlement. More to follow....

[Venefica]

hank goodness for that.The Lutheran church has a lot to answer for. It is the Lutherans in your neck of the woods isnt it?

Oh yes, the Protestants are big in Norway. We even had a Protestant priest, at least I think he is Protestant as prime minister a while ago.

Actually the stories of the Vanir and Aesir are good indications that the Norse Gods where once a tribe of flesh and blood pepole, perhaps very powerful pepole but still pepole. After all in most stories of the old and new Gods having it out at one another it is always very clear that they are all Gods, but with the Norse and also the Celtic ones there is this feeling of more of old war stories about amazing pepole than there is stories of Spiritual beings.