Whats the point of black magick if it all comes back to you anyway?

[NiceGuy2010]

Forgive my ignorance. I'm probably getting into magick and psychic influence for the wrong reasons but w/e. Before I go any further in
my practice, I need to know something from more experienced practicioners.

I'm a very sad and angry fellow, I want revenge and retribution against all my enemies, past, present and future. I want all that was deprived me up till this point, money, power, respect, sex with beautiful women and all the worldly pleasures denied me. I was told to use magick for good, and while making myself happy and shit does feel good...it quickly loses it's appeal and i find that I'm just too selfish to use magick to help others. Yeah, I'm pretty much flawed at a fundamental level. I do drugs, I drink, I'm lazy and I pretty much feel that the world owes me things. I don't want to work, even though I have to...I'm just generally not a "socially acceptable" or "politically correct" person. Also, I'm probably almost psychotic because of my elevated dopamine levels. I'm paranoid...but not by nature, I'm sure I can find some kind of magickal practice to set my mind straight in this regard, although I won't stop the hate I feel, because if I let that go, I'm open to attack by others.

I want to make people suffer for even thinking wrongly about me. I just have much hate inside me. I was told that hate is good for black magick...HOWEVER...

I don't want things to come back to me. I don't believe in Karma, but I'm inclined to say that it exists whether I believe or not. I have a long list of people I want to make suffer and beg for mercy, I have lots of hot sluts I want to fuck and lots of worldly shit I want to do. I want to get away with murder, I want to do all I wish. However, I find it hard to start on any sort of REAL power (so far, I'm just good at remote influence, I can make girls cum without touching them lol) with this knawing, aching, limiting doubt that someday all the shit I do will come back to me. Whats the point of even doing it if I'm just going to have to pay a price? Any way around karma or am I just going to have to accept the limits of what I can do with black magick?

[Pyarun]

First of all: You should know that there is no such thing as black magic. Magic is magic, you can use it for what you wish.
Second: Nothing and noone can impose limits, moral or otherwise, on magic or mages.
Third: Karma is not something to worry about, if it does exist, which i doubt VERY MUCH, then you are already fucked. All your hate and other shit that you mentioned, you can consider yourself firmly and totally screwed if there is such a thing as karma. So you have two reasons to not worry about karma. One, im telling you that there's no such thing as karma. And two, if im wrong you're fucked anyway so you might as well make the most of it.


Of course i very much doubt that you will get very far in magic if you are that full of emotions, no matter what people say about emotions being good for magic, all they really do is cloud your reason and judgement and you need both to be very sharp and clear if you want to succeed with magic. However, you dont really care about my opinion so... you have your answer about karma and now you can go and smite your enemies.

[Nahemah]

Work through your anger,if you are still full of hate at the end,then smite away.

Why are you sad and angry? What brought you to where you are now? You are paranoid,why?

Knowing the whys and understanding the wherefores is useful,no matter what path you take.

[Venefica]

First of all. I do not believe there is some sort of force which punish magick users for doing evil. I think good an evil is human concepts. I do not think there are Gods or Spirits or some light with punish evildoers, not unless you yourself believe that. However if you go around having doubts that if you harm someone with magick that some fort of Karma will punish you, then that might happen, but then it is you punishing yourself with adopting a Paradigm where such Karma exists.

Secondly something which bugs me about your post are when you say things like this. And I quote. "I'm a very sad and angry fellow" and "I'm pretty much flawed at a fundamental level." and the list go on. If you want to be a bad boy, be a bad boy. It seams you feel negatively about the way you are, and that is something you have to work on if you are going to be very effective with magick. Either you accept that this is the way you are and are proud of that, or you change. Saying that you are flawed at a fundamental level for not having the standard Western morals makes having the morals you have wrong in your eyes. How can you expect a raging curse to work if you deep down think yourself flawed for working said curse. I am egoistic, and I can be a bitch at times and I am proud of that. You need to be proud of who you are, or change or magick will be very hard to do. I am not saying impossible, but it would be harder than if you accept yourself as who you are.

That being said are you ready to take full responsibility for your actions? I am not judging, but you should be aware that to kill with magick, that is murder the same as if you where to do it with a knife, to make someone have sex with you against their will, that is rape, you need to accept that. Also if you meet the world as an asshole, the chance is that you make others angry enough to cast a curse back at you. Many things magick is a free ride, it is not, magick need time and practice to master, and remember you are not the only mage on the block, there are those who will defend them self, and quite violently.

[NiceGuy2010]

Thank you for your time and words. I've had these understandings at first, the exact ones you describe, but I dismissed them as
ignorance and "noobishness". I thought it was some silly thoughts (oh Karma is only real if you believe in it etc, just do what you want etc) but now I see someone else also thinks about magick in the same way as I did at first. No wonder I had such fast, good results at first!

Again, thanks. Now I can comfortably do what I want to do, as soon as I clear some beliefs and energy blockages through Huna I'll get started. It's going to take a few months of everyday clearing and relaxation breaths, but it'll be worth it!

I agree, I need to be proud about who I am no matter what. I've let Western culture penetrate my psyche, and now that I'm aware, I can do something about it!

[NiceGuy2010]

Work through your anger,if you are still full of hate at the end,then smite away.

Why are you sad and angry? What brought you to where you are now? You are paranoid,why?

Knowing the whys and understanding the wherefores is useful,no matter what path you take.

I'm sad and angry because I've been unfairly treated (as we all have). I'm working on taking away self pity because you
can't really do anything magickal with such a useless emotion. I'm paranoid because every time I relax and "go with the flow"
someone takes advantage, but then again, that might just be a perception. It gets deeper than that, and I know it's my job to
get all this straightened out.

From now on, I'm going to just be proud of who I am for starters.

[Nahemah]

"From now on, I'm going to just be proud of who I am for starters."


Good.That's a great starting point.I've been where you are,as you say yourself: we all have,or most of us anyway.

Either you let it eat you up or you stand up and deal with it,as Venefica already said it so well.Don't let it destroy you,but don't strike out blindly in anger either.

Welcome to the first day of the rest of your new life.

[Rikoshi]

I'd recommend self healing first, vengeance after you have solidified your ideology, overcome your emotional issues. When you master the self, your magic improves greatly.

Definitely not saying you shouldn't use magic to get girls, money, etc in the mean time. That's just practical. But vengeance?

There isn't Karma really... but there are consequences, and there are self limitations. I'd suggest mastering yourself before going out to use magic to master others- if you can't get over your issues and impose them on someone else, there will eventually be repercussions. Not cause of the rule of three, not cause of karma, but because being an asshole is toxic- do onto others and they do onto others, ad infinitum. Taking vengeance on the world eventually just makes other yous, other people with a chip on their shoulder, other enemies you need to take revenge on. Point being, if you do nothing but make shit worse around you, don't be surprised when another asshole comes along and shits on you- cause you enabled them.

[Venefica]

The desire for revenge is a basic human emotion. However most of the time it is useless, vengeance will not undo the thing one seek revenge for and generally will just be spending allot of energy where it can do no good. If someone do something to me and I seek revenge I just end up spending allot of energy on pepole who have done me ill, instead of on things which benefit me. That being said there is a certain satisfaction in giving a asshole exactly what he or she is due.

[Rikoshi]

Oh, definitely a natural response. But if you have a huge list of people you want revenge on, it's very likely not a good list- focus. There are a few bastards worth smiting in everyones life, but don't go overboard. It comes down to the question- are they worth it.

[Venefica]

True. I do not think there is anyone on my list that I want revenge at, someone would have to to do something quite bad for me to want to spend that much energy on them. However small curses for target practice, that I at times do. Like assholes I meat I might wish them to loose status or wish minor misfortune on them. Not all curses have to be of the big bad you are going to die quality, and some pepole are just begging to be target practice.

[Philoneus Bosch]

Tough shit mate, but why do you think your susceptible to that shite about this rule of three?If it only applies to Wiccies then why are you pissed aff aboot it?Sorry, I'm Scottish and when I get annoyed I find it hard to continue to write in this effeminate language (bad tempered Celtic scunner).
Advise to you.....suck it up as the 'merkin kids say.Grow up laddie,life's gey teuch.

[Venefica]

Well actually what one actively believe and what one believe enough that it kind of run around in the back of one's mind and can affect things is two different things. One thing is not believing in Karma and the like, another thing is not not have that little nudge of doubt about it which can direct Energies to sabotage one self if one let it.

[PRINCEFREAKASSO]

Hi Niceguy,who'd see his enemies die.
Putting out a hex that has potent power,calls for very knowledgeable and serious practice.Masters in the game are cursed people themselves.If you come into the tantric belts near the foothills of the Himalayas,you will really see magic,like you've never seen before.The guys and witches are not at all human.Let me tell you of a famous person who was a master of witchcraft.His name was Mohammed Chail.Living in a very frugal manner and old he'd walk to a zoo nearby,to sit on a bench there.When a bird would fly past,he'd stop it midair with one finger.He'd dismantle the couplings on trains by just looking at them.He'd look at an illwisher crossing the road and make a car hit the person sometimes fatally.Intrigued by his fathers power, his son used to beg his father to teach him the art.His father would reply"this is evil my son,and not for you",I want you to be respected as a doctor or a lawyer or something worthy of recognition.But the son persisted.So the father said "son every night have you observed I sleep with a cloth over my face"? "Well tonight you come and pick it up after midnight and discuss with me".When the boy picked up the cloth after midnight,he was shocked to see a skull instead of a face with worms and maggots eating into it.I knew Mohammed,and let me tell you this was true.But as you claim to be a newcomer to the craft,let me tell you a few things.Don't listen to the crapola that someone can send a hex to you so easily.I say Gonads! If someone sends a hex to me,it will ricochet back perhaps killing that person.We magicians have a five metal Eastern Tavish (Talisman)sewed into the thigh near the femoral artery,which sends the hex back to the sender faster than a bullet.But remember we do battle it out with each other for supremacy and target each other.So it all boils down to the basics."Those who live by the sword,perish by it".By the Guardians of the Eastern shores.....PRINCE

[Grymdycche]

Well I've got to say, as a budding trad witch/warlock, it's refreshing to not see the wiccan threefold dogma preached here. (Or the rede)
In a way, I can really feel sympathy for Niceguy. I feel the exact same way a lot of the time, in that, it sure seems nice guys finish last, people take advantage of you, even those who proclaim to love you or be your friend. In this way, I can really sympathize with Niceguy2010.
Unlike Niceguy2010, I've no desire to kill anyone. I'm not even really interested in revenge, per se, I would just like to start seeing the respect that I know I'm due. I believe in the Golden Rule, but that the rule also works the other way, in my favor, equally. I would prefer to work on preemptive magic to ensure I get treated right, as opposed to focusing reactively after the fact with curses. But, to each their own. I think one could also claim an ethical issue, if they wished, with my approach; am I trying to change the way people think and act? Is that anymore "right" than punishing them? So it's simply a matter of practicality, not moral judgement. And like has been said here earlier, sometimes you just gotta whack an asshole back; it not only feels good, but they might just learn something too.
Funny, I mentioned this very "respect" thing on another forum some weeks ago, and I got odd answers back that implied I probably had self-esteem issues. How the hell they arrived at that conclusion beats me. I know I deserve better, so how is that low esteem? Seems like an easy default thing to say I guess. Anyway, I'm digressing..

[Venefica]

The problem is that there is always those who will not respect others. I deserve the same consideration and respect as a thin person, but still many pepole treat me like shit because I am overweight, now this make me angry, but really, the respect of others is not something one can force, just as others can not force respect out of me. Take USA's last president Bush for example, many would assume all owed him respect, but I say to hell with that, all I see when I look at bush is an angry little war monger which have accomplished nothing but making the relationship between the West and the Arab nations more tense. Or some of the girls I see in the streets who seam to only have fashion in their heads, many would respect them for being beautiful, but I can not see them as other than a little silly. Respect is earned. I would not want respect that was forced or false, it would mean nothing. I want respect which is honest, and that I am only owed if the other person want to give it. What I think I am owed however and that I think all human beings are owed are simple common courtesy and general decency, but one do not have to respect another person to offer that, one only have to respect oneself to be polite and courteous.

[VenusSatanas]

First of all: You should know that there is no such thing as black magic. Magic is magic, you can use it for what you wish.

Thats funny. I use black magic all the time. the name 'black' only refers to the method.

[Nahemah]

I treat all I meet with the same consideration,until or unless they show me that I shouldn't.

It's awful that other people can be so superficially judgemental but it's all too common.

Look at the media,certain images and lifestyles are constantly being shoved in our faces as the 'cool way to be' and the feeding frenzy you seee in tabloids and magazines over 'celebrities' their looks/clothes,lives and accessories is ridiculous.The New Gods of the masses? I wonder sometimes.

Respect is earned,like trust.I prefer to get to know a bit about someone before I box them in or make judgement calls.I've been there too,I must admit I do like to blow away the low expectations of others, that have at times been put upon me.

[Grymdycche]

Take USA's last president Bush for example, many would assume all owed him respect, but I say to hell with that, all I see when I look at bush is an angry little war monger which have accomplished nothing but making the relationship between the West and the Arab nations more tense.

I totally disagree. He accomplished much more than people are willing to admit. Besides that, ever since I can remember, there has been conflict and tension in the middle east. I think it's time the West confronted it instead of trying to keep stuffing it back in a bag, that's resolved nothing. I think history will vindicate him, for the most part. But of course, no one's perfect.

OTOH, I'd really not wax political here, so this is my first and last politically inclined post. I'm just sick of the Bush bashing already.

[Venefica]

Oh yes he also managed to get USA further into dept and quite a few other things like that. But I can not think of one positive thing Bush did, unless off course you are conservative and is against free expression, homosexuality, other religions than Christianity and so on. Yes there have been tension between the West and the Arabic nations, but that do not mean one should fan the fires. Bush have thousands of innocent lives on his conscience. He went to war on Iraq based on a lie, there never was any atomic weapons, and if you think the Iraqi pepole are better off now, then you need to stop listening to propaganda. I pray to all that is Holy that the future will not bare a society sick enough to vindicate Bush. The man deserves all the bashing he gets and more, he should be brought before a war crimes court.

[Grymdycche]

Obama has managed to get this country in more debt in 1 1/2 years than Bush did in all 8.
We're sunk.

So.. you don't think disposing of a murderous tyrant like Saddam, and his two psychopathic sons, is a positive change? Freeing all the Shia that lived under his thumb, were brutally tortured (and I mean, really tortured) and murdered by the thousands? So, helping to build schools, promoting gender equality in schools and the workplace, and establishing democracy in an impoverished middle east country is bad and criminal?
That Bush recapitulated and allowed wicca as a religion, though it was contrary to his own? (if you think Christians are anti-pagan, you should meet some Moslems sometime)

The "lie" of Iraq was in fact not a lie- his predecessor and nearly all significant democratic members all agreed that Iraq had WMD, and did in fact, as the thousands of Kurdish survivors can in fact attest to. Read this if you think Bush was the only one who believed this:
http://www.snopes.com/politics/war/wmdquotes.asp

The fact that Saddam managed to destroy and/or ship them off to Syria before being invaded does not change the fact. I don't know where you got this simplistic impression from, but Bush never said Iraq had "atomic" weapons. Besides,that's not the only kind of WMD there is - biological and chemical weapons were what they were talking about, they too, are WMDs, and it's a fact that Saddam had used at the very least chemical weapons before, on the Kurds. So yes, Saddam had WMDs. We weren't sure if had any nuclear abilities, but he had WMDs.

It's you dear, who need to stop listening to propaganda, not me. I know the pagan/youth/geek/academic/democratic subcultures love to bash bush, and usually parrot each other without ever actually checking the facts for themselves.
Anyone who thought Iraq could actually be fully transformed in a mere few years is totally out of touch with reality, and has no courage, no faith, no optimism. It will and already has started to turn around for the better. The seed of democracy will sprout from there, and it's ideals will reach others in the region.
No one ever tries to see the cup as half full anymore ..

HEY! You made me break my promise already. That's it, reply and refute me all you like, you will not bait me into this discussion again.

[Rikoshi]

This is getting really off topic, but interesting. How about we move it over to the political forums?

[Venefica]

So.. you don't think disposing of a murderous tyrant like Saddam, and his two psychopathic sons, is a positive change?

A. Saddam might have been a tyrant but most of his pepole where better of with him than they are now. For one Saddam gave women far more rights than the more sternly Muslim believers who will most likely take over, and far more had housing, food, at least some schooling. Plus there is the whole thing about living in a war zone, so no, disposing Saddam in the way it was done was not a positive change.

B. USA have no business disposing another nation's ruler. No matter how much they dislike them. You might think the world appreciates the whole USA is the world police your nation seam to believe off itself, but let me tell you, the world do not.

Freeing all the Shia that lived under his thumb, were brutally tortured (and I mean, really tortured) and murdered by the thousands?

Far more civilians have been killed during the American occupation then Saddam ever killed under his entire rule. None where freed they where invaded.

So, helping to build schools, promoting gender equality in schools and the workplace

Far less pepole get education now than they did before so building a few schools hardly makes up for that, and to have gender neutrality in the workplaces controlled by Americans helps very little when women's position in society at large get so much weaker. You speak of democracy, and I will get to that in a second. However much cruelty Saddam might have done, he had a more Western idea of women, and he enforced that even if there is far more Shia Muslims in his nation which believes in Traditional Muslim ways. Now with more pepole thinking women should wear hijab and have hardly any rights once a democracy is established that is what will happen. Remember democracy is two wolfs and a sheep deciding what's for dinner, so unless the pepole are of a just mind, a democracy will not bring justice.

and establishing democracy in an impoverished middle east country is bad and criminal?

To go to war unprovoked is criminal, to kill and torture pepole are criminal, to send pepole to prisons where they are held and tortured for months and years without any trial on the mere suspicion they might be terrorists are criminal, and to try to force democracy on another nation because we in the West think it is a good way to organize society, now that might not be criminal, but the hell it should be. Each nation should have the right to decide for them self how their society is run. In addition to force democracy on a nation which is not ready for it, that is just plain stupid. Look at Iraq, USA have had a few years to try now, it is not working.

All the invasion of Iraq have done is tear apart an already poor nation, kill allot of pepole on both side, including allot of civilians and cost allot of money. It was a stupid move, and it was little other than the actions of an angry little war monger which know no other way to rule than to wage war. Now if Bush had gotten what he wanted, oil and resources in the form of money given to American companies for the rebuilding work, then it might have worked, the American pepole might have cheered him as a hero. But even Americans is beginning to see Bush for what he is, a small, petty and stupid man who rose to power by milking a tragedy for what it was worth and making his pepole see Muslim bogymen everywhere, why else do you think that a so disputed and controversial man as Obama got elected as President. Hell half of USA and most of the rest of the world is willing to see past any flaw Obama might have, they are only glad he is not Bush and is not some idiot following in the same footsteps either.

That Bush recapitulated and allowed wicca as a religion, though it was contrary to his own? (if you think Christians are anti-pagan, you should meet some Moslems sometime)

Freedom of religion is a part of the human rights that FN supports. Not that USA and particularly not Bush have ever cared much for human rights, and before you protests USA have a list of offenses as long as a bad year in that regard, including but not limited to torture, imprisonment without trial, cruelty to prisoners of war and so on and so on. However even Bush would have problems with banning a religion followed by millions of his own pepole. It is easy enough to torture a suspected terrorist, even when that suspected terrorist is only a 16 year old child, in a far away prison camp, but another thing all together to try to ban pepole in his own nation from practicing a peaceful religion, even Bush would not dare go that far. However that the man his hostile to non Christian religions, that is quite plainly fact.

And I have never claimed Christians as a group are hostile towards Pagans. I have said Bush is. And what Muslims do or do not do is hardly the point, what we are discussing is Bush.

The "lie" of Iraq was in fact not a lie- his predecessor and nearly all significant democratic members all agreed that Iraq had WMD, and did in fact, as the thousands of Kurdish survivors can in fact attest to. Read this if you think Bush was the only one who believed this:

Off course Bush was not the only one who believed Iraq had such weapons, allot of pepole did and USA suckered quite a few nations to go along with them, however the fact remains there was no proof of such weapons and no trace of the weapons was ever found. The war was based on a lie, that is was a lie many pepole believed do not make it any less of a lie, and it is quite frightening that such an invasion can start over just a suspicion of something with not even a shred of proof.

The fact that Saddam managed to destroy and/or ship them off to Syria before being invaded does not change the fact.

And you have proof of this?

I don't know where you got this simplistic impression from, but Bush never said Iraq had "atomic" weapons. Besides,that's not the only kind of WMD there is - biological and chemical weapons were what they were talking about, they too, are WMDs, and it's a fact that Saddam had used at the very least chemical weapons before, on the Kurds. So yes, Saddam had WMDs. We weren't sure if had any nuclear abilities, but he had WMDs.

Ah forgive me for not using a inclusive enough term. Now we all know Iraq had such weapons once, that is not open to debate it is fact. USA's invasion was however based on an assumption that Iraq still had such weapons, and no proof was found to that, zip, nada, nothing. Plain and simple, there was no such weapons there.

It's you dear, who need to stop listening to propaganda, not me. I know the pagan/youth/geek/academic/democratic subcultures love to bash bush, and usually parrot each other without ever actually checking the facts for themselves.

My dear you need to stop licking Bush's behind and read a little. You see the reason why the groups you mention usually bash Bush is that we are actually intellectual read and look into things and know what we are talking about instead of quoting propaganda like some sort of parrot. Open your eyes and read a little, perhaps you would come off as less of an idiot.

Anyone who thought Iraq could actually be fully transformed in a mere few years is totally out of touch with reality, and has no courage, no faith, no optimism.

My dear it is not that Iraq will be transformed I doubt, it is the cost in human lives and suffering, especially among the innocent Iraqi civilians to fulfill the vision USA have for how another nation should be that fail to fill me with either faith or optimism. As for courage, to go in like plundering invaders might demand it's own kind of courage, but it is not really a courage that I much admire nor desire.

It will and already has started to turn around for the better.

Eventually the war have to end, however I wonder if the families of the civilians that American soldiers have murdered, or those maimed for life or those with their homes destroyed would agree with you that things are starting to get better.

he seed of democracy will sprout from there, and it's ideals will reach others in the region.

Is not democracy at gunpoint sort of a perversion of the whole concept behind democracy?

No one ever tries to see the cup as half full anymore ..

It is a bit hard to see the cup as half full when the situation is that one nation with superior military might invaded into another nation, killed of it's leader and quite a number of the population, smashed the nation half to bits and now try to rebuild the nation in it's own image. I fail to see anything positive about that. Off course if one is arrogant enough to assume that Western way of life is the only way of life worth having, the only way of life which should be allowed to survive then it might be seen as positive, but I for one lack that level of arrogance.

[Uriel666]

Just remember, you create your own reality by what you focus on, If you focus on hate, self-loathing,and shit such as that, what do you think you are going to receive in return,flowers and sunshine? True magic begins within...transform yourself,and the rest will be a naked romp in the park!

[Grymdycche]

My dear you need to stop licking Bush's behind and read a little. You see the reason why the groups you mention usually bash Bush is that we are actually intellectual read and look into things and know what we are talking about instead of quoting propaganda like some sort of parrot. Open your eyes and read a little, perhaps you would come off as less of an idiot.

I'm not getting drawn into your game and your childish name-calling, Venefica. I don't appreciate being called an "idiot", and I certainly do not lick "Bush's behind", I never said he was a great man or president,I merely said he was misunderstood. Huge difference.
And ah, the ever popular, "I'm an intellectual and you're not" bit.. You have got to be kidding me. I won't even honor this tripe by addressing it any further, except that it is beyond arrogant, elitist, and presumptuous. Oh, and dead wrong. Propaganda flows both ways.
Beware, this intense hatred you harbor might someday consume you. You may not think it's there, but it is.