is it true that demons are now free?

[hobotubbie]

Yes i agree well i was exaggerating a bit.. i know that around the globe there are probably more then 1% but.. it's the impression you get .. and for me .. even tho i follow a super low profile and individual path i've met more people with fantasy in their mind then i would like.

I was not talking about you stukov i don't know you and you seem to be quite a serious person.

About the aliens im not very sure tho .. i haven't got much into that .. but i hope your not apart of JOS.. coz they believe that (they call it demons even tho they are much more complex to be named has demons) those who called fallen are aliens who were in planet earth to mine gold (lol..) and human beings were their slaves.. and they fell inlove with slave women and they were punished coz human beings were so low in the hierarchy working as slaves (little JOS version of enoch).

Anyway back to topic a bit .. even tho it's really so far away from ceremonial magick by now.. if these people are trying to do that.. and i agree with you that here all of us are in the present state and are humans .. if someone is trying to free some of those from their bounds giving them free will they don't have a clue what they are doing.. just another egotistical action very present on the human nature that will for sure go back.. and tbh .. i doubt that anyone with such a weak mind who would want to perform such a thing has the power to do it aswell.

[Madavascus]

there is a site that I usually go to.http://www.joyofsatan.org/.It states that a group of satanic high priests have officially set free over a 100 demons,including the goetia demons,and that they now roam freely.and that they can no longer be bound using triangles of art and circles of art,because they have officialy been set "free".

""recently,several high priest and high priestesses performed energy work with many different demons including all of the demons of the goetia.all 72 demons of the goetia have been freed and many more" "we warn everyone:using spiritually abusive methods of the old grimoires is not only foolish,but will inevitably result in personal disaster.""the days of using enemy "god" names,nine foot circles,threats and other destructive and abusive methods are over.dont say you weren't warned..."" -joyofsatan.com

is this statement true?

on the other hand,it provides many meditations and "satanic" witchcraft,but when reading through it,I found that most of it really didnt have anything to do with satan,but rather with ones own mind and energy manipulation.which is the main reason I usualy visit the site.

The statement is not true, dear friend, because:
I. Demons are not theirs to "free."
II. They have no understanding of the true nature of the Goetic Demons.
III. They collectively suffer from an egregious mental disease, being as it were, apostates to reason and common sense.

[Stukov]

The statement is not true, dear friend, because:
I. Demons are not theirs to "free."
II. They have no understanding of the true nature of the Goetic Demons.
III. They collectively suffer from an egregious mental disease, being as it were, apostates to reason and common sense.

I. you don't have to "own" something to assist its freedom
II.
III. even a broken clock can be right twice a day

[Madavascus]

The statement is not true, dear friend, because:
I. Demons are not theirs to "free."
II. They have no understanding of the true nature of the Goetic Demons.
III. They collectively suffer from an egregious mental disease, being as it were, apostates to reason and common sense.

I. you don't have to "own" something to assist its freedom
II.
III. even a broken clock can be right twice a day

Hahaha, touché! [grin]

[Stukov]

Yup folks, I'm here all night. With a bottle and a desire to get shit faced.

[hobotubbie]

what is that youre drinking may i ask?

I lost all the desire of drinking last night i feel so bad

[Stukov]

what is that youre drinking may i ask?

I lost all the desire of drinking last night i feel so bad

I was drinking Bacardi 151...up until it went down the wrong pipe and I couldn't breath cuz it went into my lungs. Evil alcohol tried to kill me!

[hobotubbie]

lol that would have been crazy.. "proeminent occultist stukov dies choked by bacardi 151" :|

Seriously that never happened to me but must be weird .. glad you alright.

[blackdove]

you could die by drinking alchohol? [oh]

[Mr. Alejos]

If you believe they are, then it is so.
If believe they are not, then it is so.
Be weary of what you believe in.

[happy2]

[hobotubbie]

So what your trying to say is .. the world (spiritual and material) is not as it is.. it is how we perceive it?

I wish that was true.. :|

[Vashta]

I've heard it said that belief determines reality, and, I guess I believe that in some sense

But, I've also heard the response "Tell that to anyone who has ever ran into a glass door!"

I still think belief determines reality, but there's the problem of consensus and beliefs battling against beliefs in a struggle to become the dominant paradigm. In the glass door example, the beliefs of the person who ran into the door were set against the beliefs of the architect who decided to put the door there, the glass-workers who cut the glass, the workers who installed it, and everyone who has ever used it as a door. Unless the person running into the door's beliefs are so strong that they outweigh the beliefs of all the people who believe there is a glass door there, well, you can guess what happens

[akimbomoss]

Unless the person running into the door's beliefs are so strong that they outweigh the beliefs of all the people who believe there is a glass door there

This is EXACTLY the kind of thing a sorcerer does to help an apprentice to see energy.

[Stukov]

There is only one reality. (unless you get into theory of multiple dimensions and timeline divergence) We perceive reality through whatever senses we have, because reality can be perceived different ways, doesn't make reality different. It simply means the perception is different. Reality/Truth is a complex thing, it is why there is often no single answer to define it, but whatever the case, there is only one single Reality or Truth. There might be tons of different realities or truths, but only one Truth/Reality.

Can someone manipulate reality with will or belief? Sure, if one spends enough energy one can change the way certain things are. I can grab snow and shape it into a snowball, or I can melt it into water. Most people can do these things. But I can't just believe water is iron and it makes it so. If you really want to do that you have to rearrange the molecules and sub atomic particles so that it can then be iron. Can it be done? Sure, it is possible. However any time someone says they can do something like that, usually what it means is they can distort the perception of reality. That is what stage magicians do, simply manipulate your perception to see a different reality.

Belief don't mean shit if you don't have the knowledge, will, or energy to do something with it.

[Mr. Alejos]

My comment has been terribly misconstrued as a broad generalization. It is my fault as I tend to presume people will know what I am talking about. I should be less vague.

My comment was aimed at cosmology.

Should one have it well in mind that the Goetic spirits are free and can no longer be bound to the Triangle of Art, then that individual would not be able to bind a Goetic spirit to the Triangle during an evocation.

I suppose a fair “real” example would be cultural specific mental pathologies, like Anorexia Nervosa being particularly American or “Western” in comparison to the dreaded Koro of Southeast Asia. Being Hispanic myself Susto was a large part of my community.

What do cultural pathologies have to do with this subject? It is due to the specific people’s belief structure that allows them to be opened to these mental conditions.

We may say that the mental conditions these people are experiencing are not a part of “reality”, but it is a condition of their internal cosmology and to them the experience is real.

As my psychology professors have said, “Just because an experience is not real, does not make an experience less real.”

If we use the definition of reality as , “the quality and state of being real” and as “a thing that is actually experienced”, is this argument not valid?

It would be monotonous to try and explain this simple example further. As far as belief affecting physical reality, I as well have a fair example dealing with the behaviors of atomic particles. I will post this up later.

Tell me what you think and where we should take the conversation from here.

Keep it real.
[happyface]

[Mr. Alejos]

Post Script

I am only going to bring up my example of belief affecting physical reality because a few have brought it up in the conversation. It was not initially a part of what I was trying to communicate, but I think this will be a fun discussion.

[Vashta]

I do like to think belief determines, or at the very least, affects reality. I do agree with the part where you say that

Belief don't mean shit if you don't have the knowledge, will, or energy to do something with it.

All the wishful thinking in the world won't turn your daydreams to a reality, unless of course, you're doing it rite.. I really need to stay off the puns [bummed]

But I do believe it's entirely possible to alter reality with perception. Or, at least, it's not like you'd know the difference I'd bring up Schrödinger's cat, but to be honest I'm not well-versed enough in quantum physics to take that argument anywhere constructive..

Maybe we should open a new topic for this discussion? It is a bit off-topic

[Lucan]

Freed demons by "energy work", hahaha, if these new agers really met demons, these would kill them with laugh after such claims!

[Stukov]

Freed demons by "energy work", hahaha, if these new agers really met demons, these would kill them with laugh after such claims!

They weren't real "demons" simply spirits that was demonized by the Catholic church then mostly forgotten.

[blackdove]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PY9NVHuTWUQ

even satanists dislike the JOS. [neutral]

[Lucan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PY9NVHuTWUQ

even satanists dislike the JOS. [neutral]

What satanists? Real satanists, that means particular European witch cults, don't exist for centuries now, unfortunately. If you think that atheist and new-age groups are the real thing I feel sorry for you.

Freed demons by "energy work", hahaha, if these new agers really met demons, these would kill them with laugh after such claims!

They weren't real "demons" simply spirits that was demonized by the Catholic church then mostly forgotten.

And you don't have any proof except weak theory that goetic demons are the same entities as old gods because they have similiar names.

[blackdove]

what do you mean "no proof"?its sensible that they must have a close connection by comparing their names.also,they werent "demons' before,thats until the roman catholics "demonized" them.and I wouldnt call other peoples theories "weak" when it actually makes sense.

[Lucan]

By proof I mean solid philosophical basis, historical clues, and testimonies of reliable magicians who had authentic experiences with demons (to see what is reliable magician take Poke Ruynon and imagine someone completely opposite).

[Stukov]

By proof I mean solid philosophical basis, historical clues, and testimonies of reliable magicians who had authentic experiences with demons (to see what is reliable magician take Poke Ruynon and imagine someone completely opposite).

I am not entirely sure the point you are trying to make. Because calling out for "proof", and in which I assume you mean by some sort of empirical measure, doesn't exist for anything on this board. None of us here have any greater "proof" than if the truth was everything was a single jester is playing tricks on all of us. No magic, no spirits, no demons, no gods, just a trickster laughing their way into eternity.

What the majority of us that are on this board work within the realm of probabilities while entertaining possibilities to expand the paradigm of what the majority of humanity considers real. Empirical proof is most certainly never going to exist with how reality works at this very moment, at least, sure we can prove that something is going on beyond traditional explanations, but no one that I am aware of has undeniable empirical proof of what is causing such effects.

Certainly certain probabilities lend toward one conclusion or stray from another and it is these probabilities that we work with. With this point in mind, philosophy, history, or testimonies of "reliable magicians who [have] authentic experiences with demons" are not measurements of proof. At most they can be seen as evidence to weigh the scale of probabilities one way or the other, but proof? No.

Back onto the original point, I don't know what point you are trying to make. First I asserted that the OP (whose link I never went into) was never talking about real "demons" (you can see my definition of such elsewhere on the board), rather simply they were spirits that the church "demonized" into demons (ie calling anything that wasn't their god or angels in the bible as demonic or satan). And apparently you agree they weren't real "demons" as you said so yourself - which agrees with me here...and oddly enough rather falls in line with what I have said elsewhere about "real demons" on this board.

Is your post really demanding "proof" that the church has "demonized" some spirits I only referred to generically and never named?

[Vashta]

"In place of 'proof of' a Magical theory, we have 'experience of' it."
- SSOTBME, Edited and revised by Ramsay Dukes

Just sprang to mind