So I'm a big newbie when it comes to magic and I've been drawn to several different things including ceremonial (high) magic. I've been reading the book modern magick and I've been trying to learn about the history and theory of high magick and although I feel like I could benefit a lot from high magick I also feel like its a bit dogmatic in what it teaches. I also feel like its sort of like a magical religion of some sort.
The whole purpose of high (or ceremonial magick, what is the difference?) is to achieve conversation with your holy guardian angel right? That seems quite religious to me. I mean how is that different from saying 'I want to be one with God'? But in this case God is your higher self. I guess you can argue its a mystical quest but high magic requires all these very specific rituals.
Who made up these rituals and how did they know it would lead to conversation with your holy guardian angel? What is this conversation anyway? What does it even really mean? And why do magicians think this is important goal? And how do they know its even achievable? Also did any of the famous ceremonial magicians achieve this goal? Fortune, Mathers, Regardie, Waite, Crowley and the rest... I know how Crowley ended up. I also heard that some of the rituals he did was just for theatrics. How much of these ceremonies are really needed? Are they suppose to change you mentally or philosophically? I've read that Fortune was a psychologist and that she believed magic was all psychological. Also why is the kabbalah and hebrew used so much? Do high magicians have a slightly Jewish world view or does it not really matter what you believe? I mean you sort of have to believe it all if your goal is to be conversant with your angel and all that don't you?
Is ceremonial magic like a religion?
Re: Is ceremonial magic like a religion?
Interesting topic, but also a hard one.
It can be dogmatic depending on the way you mean the word "dogma" and the system or systems you are working with. Lévi will talk about "dogma" in sort of a positive way, while Crowley will say it's a bad, bad thing. (Which is particularly funny considering that Crowley supposedly was Lévi's reincarnation.) It can be confusing sometimes, especially if you are not experienced. You'll have to work your way through the mess. I prefer to accept "dogma" temporarily when needed, but never get enslaved by it. The only true dogma to me, I think, is that one ultimate goal.
Conversation with the HGA is not the whole purpose; there's more to go after that. But you have more or less the right idea. I'd say it's religious indeed, but not any specific religion, but the Religion, free from "dogma" (see above).
"These rituals" doesn't say a lot to me. Which rituals? (I understand what you meant, but without details I can't give the background of any one ritual.) The conversation is acknowledgment of the existence of this "angel" and the discovery of one's True Will, basically. As for why it is important, what could be more important than the Greatest Work there is? As you put it, being one with "God". Crowley did it. Not sure about the others, as I don't remember which Grades they ended up in, if any. I never heard or read anything about Crowley's rituals being just for theatrics. He was a very serious practitioner. The rituals aren't needed NEEDED, you see? They are tools, very useful tools (depending on the ritual, of course). Yes, the rituals are supposed to change you mentally. Concerning Fortune, I don't know too much about this, but even if she did say that, it doesn't mean magic(k) wasn't "real" for her. Psychology is part of the show. It's complicated. Anyway, I've read trustworthy accounts of her being involved in real magical danger. Nothing important, but since you mentioned it, I might as well said it. The use of Hebrew and Kabbalah is a very complex subject, but it basically enters in what I said about dogma and rituals being tools. I wrote too much already. lol
I hope this helped. Also, keep in mind this is my current view and I might have gotten a few things slightly wrong. Perhaps someone with decades of experience could give a better answer, but I think I mostly covered it. If there's anything else, feel free to ask.
It can be dogmatic depending on the way you mean the word "dogma" and the system or systems you are working with. Lévi will talk about "dogma" in sort of a positive way, while Crowley will say it's a bad, bad thing. (Which is particularly funny considering that Crowley supposedly was Lévi's reincarnation.) It can be confusing sometimes, especially if you are not experienced. You'll have to work your way through the mess. I prefer to accept "dogma" temporarily when needed, but never get enslaved by it. The only true dogma to me, I think, is that one ultimate goal.
Conversation with the HGA is not the whole purpose; there's more to go after that. But you have more or less the right idea. I'd say it's religious indeed, but not any specific religion, but the Religion, free from "dogma" (see above).
"These rituals" doesn't say a lot to me. Which rituals? (I understand what you meant, but without details I can't give the background of any one ritual.) The conversation is acknowledgment of the existence of this "angel" and the discovery of one's True Will, basically. As for why it is important, what could be more important than the Greatest Work there is? As you put it, being one with "God". Crowley did it. Not sure about the others, as I don't remember which Grades they ended up in, if any. I never heard or read anything about Crowley's rituals being just for theatrics. He was a very serious practitioner. The rituals aren't needed NEEDED, you see? They are tools, very useful tools (depending on the ritual, of course). Yes, the rituals are supposed to change you mentally. Concerning Fortune, I don't know too much about this, but even if she did say that, it doesn't mean magic(k) wasn't "real" for her. Psychology is part of the show. It's complicated. Anyway, I've read trustworthy accounts of her being involved in real magical danger. Nothing important, but since you mentioned it, I might as well said it. The use of Hebrew and Kabbalah is a very complex subject, but it basically enters in what I said about dogma and rituals being tools. I wrote too much already. lol
I hope this helped. Also, keep in mind this is my current view and I might have gotten a few things slightly wrong. Perhaps someone with decades of experience could give a better answer, but I think I mostly covered it. If there's anything else, feel free to ask.
Re: Is ceremonial magic like a religion?
Dear Avilin, You ask many questions at once. You are obviously keen and they are intelligent questions too. However, if i was too answer all of them at once, i would never finish my Engineering degree- or get to work either for that matter.
So lets start with the basic fundamental spiritual function(reason?) of human beings. There are many used terminologies for this such as Enlightenment(Buddha), Illumination, the Process of individuation (Jung), discover you true self, discover your true will, unite yourself with god, unification with your higher self, Knowledge and conversation with your HGA (KCHGA)and many more. The Hindis, Buddahs and Western Magickal tradition(and more) culters state that this experience is vitally important for all human beings- and they are correct. It is just that our tradition, The Western Magickal Tradition(WMT), used the term Knowledge and Conversation with your HGA. There are many perspectives, some of which i have mentions, it is just that in the West we use KCHGA. I personally use the term Enlightenment because i can relate to it better. So we here in the West are not alone in proposing this important experience. My personal interpretation of KCHGA is to bring you inner light TO FULL OUTER WAKING/EVERYDAY CONSCIOUSNESS (Malkuth).
I am going to personally suggest you read another perspective of this experience. Read "The way of individuation" by Joalandi Jacobi. This book demonstrates Jungs Perspective. Also, read a basic course in Carl Jung. I suggest this for a good reason. That is you will get an idea of what you are doing without using the mystical trappings that WMT uses.
As for Kabala, no we are not Hebrews. We in the West have borrowed this system because it is so convenient. It is a 'Map' of the universe and it is very useful as a tool. I suggest you read Dion Fortunes work here and then once you have read and understood it thoroughly- Isreal Reguardies classic. You may have to read them both twice.
Many people at first look at WMT and see dogma. However, those people are wrong. I use WMT and Kabala as a tool for my will- these are very handy tools(map)that are most helpful. I use myself as an example, true i use WMT, however, i also use Voundoun, Chaos magick, Enochian and more. All magick is a tool for the magickan to do his true will- just how 'Dogmatic' is that?
Finally, let me explain high magicak and low magick. High magick is about dealing with those forces above/within the abyss. Low magick is worshiping the sun/seasons/feminine/throwing spells.
etc.
The rituals given to us in the WMT, and i presume you are talking about the Golden Dawn (GD) are designed by someone or thing to assist use in achieving KCHGA- and i can personally sure you they do. Megreor Mathers, 'Says' he found the documents- but who knows. i can personally assure you that repeated use of the LBR(and others) seriously aided me in achieving Enlightenment.
When i first took on magick i was told it is like getting a Medical degree(quote Dion)-.
Q
PS and what do you mean by how Crowley turned out? To my knowledge none of his works where for theatrics- accept maybe the Gnostic mass in which he allowed his GF to play the violin. Reguardless of what the common public say, he wasn't all that bad.
So lets start with the basic fundamental spiritual function(reason?) of human beings. There are many used terminologies for this such as Enlightenment(Buddha), Illumination, the Process of individuation (Jung), discover you true self, discover your true will, unite yourself with god, unification with your higher self, Knowledge and conversation with your HGA (KCHGA)and many more. The Hindis, Buddahs and Western Magickal tradition(and more) culters state that this experience is vitally important for all human beings- and they are correct. It is just that our tradition, The Western Magickal Tradition(WMT), used the term Knowledge and Conversation with your HGA. There are many perspectives, some of which i have mentions, it is just that in the West we use KCHGA. I personally use the term Enlightenment because i can relate to it better. So we here in the West are not alone in proposing this important experience. My personal interpretation of KCHGA is to bring you inner light TO FULL OUTER WAKING/EVERYDAY CONSCIOUSNESS (Malkuth).
I am going to personally suggest you read another perspective of this experience. Read "The way of individuation" by Joalandi Jacobi. This book demonstrates Jungs Perspective. Also, read a basic course in Carl Jung. I suggest this for a good reason. That is you will get an idea of what you are doing without using the mystical trappings that WMT uses.
As for Kabala, no we are not Hebrews. We in the West have borrowed this system because it is so convenient. It is a 'Map' of the universe and it is very useful as a tool. I suggest you read Dion Fortunes work here and then once you have read and understood it thoroughly- Isreal Reguardies classic. You may have to read them both twice.
Many people at first look at WMT and see dogma. However, those people are wrong. I use WMT and Kabala as a tool for my will- these are very handy tools(map)that are most helpful. I use myself as an example, true i use WMT, however, i also use Voundoun, Chaos magick, Enochian and more. All magick is a tool for the magickan to do his true will- just how 'Dogmatic' is that?
Finally, let me explain high magicak and low magick. High magick is about dealing with those forces above/within the abyss. Low magick is worshiping the sun/seasons/feminine/throwing spells.
etc.
The rituals given to us in the WMT, and i presume you are talking about the Golden Dawn (GD) are designed by someone or thing to assist use in achieving KCHGA- and i can personally sure you they do. Megreor Mathers, 'Says' he found the documents- but who knows. i can personally assure you that repeated use of the LBR(and others) seriously aided me in achieving Enlightenment.
When i first took on magick i was told it is like getting a Medical degree(quote Dion)-.
Q
PS and what do you mean by how Crowley turned out? To my knowledge none of his works where for theatrics- accept maybe the Gnostic mass in which he allowed his GF to play the violin. Reguardless of what the common public say, he wasn't all that bad.
Re: Is ceremonial magic like a religion?
I think the reason high magic seems dogmatic to me is the way it is presented. In the book Modern Magick, which I think many are familiar with here on this forum, the author Kraig introduces several rituals in which he does not entirely explain the meaning or significance of. It is suppose to be a practical book, an instruction manual, I understand but from what I read in the book or else where such as Franz Bardon's Initiation into Hermetics everything is presented as dangerous if one ever deviates from the system or order. Perhaps it is only the authors I'm reading but I feel it sometimes here too on this forum... Anyway, it doesn't matter to me anymore because I came to the conclusion as to how I would use high magick, as a tool.Etar wrote:It can be dogmatic depending on the way you mean the word "dogma" and the system or systems you are working with.
I was referring to any of the rituals a ceremonial magician might use, including and especially the LBRP. Since the LBRP seems to be the most emphasized let's start with that. Where did it come from? Who wrote it? I won't ask how it works right now because that would really need its own topic. If there is some book or article that explains this in more detail than Modern Magick I'd appreciate if someone could tell me the name.Etar wrote:"These rituals" doesn't say a lot to me. Which rituals? (I understand what you meant, but without details I can't give the background of any one ritual.)
Could you clarify this some more? Also, what does "True Will" mean here? I think the problem I'm having here is that no one ever explains what these terms really mean. What exactly is conversation with YHGA (if it synonymous with being one with God then is it also acknowledging God exists? Is this goal literally being able to see/speak with God?) and if that is the Greatest Work, as you say, what is more to go beyond that?Etar wrote:The conversation is acknowledgment of the existence of this "angel" and the discovery of one's True Will, basically.
As for Dion Fortune being a psychologist and her recognizing magic as being in one's psyche I would think that this would mean that things like magick are simple tools to effect one's psyche and that it is one psyche which projects things like spirits and god as being external from one's mind. Accord to Modern Magick, whether magick is internal or external from one's mind it still works as if real. So of course it doesn't matter if your goal is simply to use it not analyze it. But the reason I mentioned Fortune was to see what the original goal/use of these tools. In what way are you suppose to use them and how they might affect you or the world.
I starting to realize this as well.Q789 wrote:However, if i was too answer all of them at once, i would never finish my Engineering degree- or get to work either for that matter.
What is this inner light? Is this the same as "True Will"? Are these about bringing your true self to the world, as in being yourself? Is this sincerity in thought and action?Q789 wrote:My personal interpretation of KCHGA is to bring you inner light TO FULL OUTER WAKING/EVERYDAY CONSCIOUSNESS (Malkuth).
What exactly is englightenment? I sort of get that it's a state of harmony with the universe. But the idea is still a bit nebulous to me. I also thought that once achieved that it was a permanent state, something in which you can't go back from. I thought it was like opening a floodgate of sorts, or that once you seen "the light" you can't unsee it.
I learned from a documentary on TV that Crowley died alone of drug abuse and madness. They also painted him as attention seeking and a bit of slob really. Of course this documentary could of been bias or just lied. But I think if it is even a bit true then I would doubt he ever achieved any sort enlightenment. But then again I really don't what you mean by being conversant with your HGA so maybe you can be a drug fiend and enlightened.
What does it feel like?i can personally assure you that repeated use of the LBR(and others) seriously aided me in achieving Enlightenment.
My mother always wanted me to be a Doctor perhaps she'll get one now. [smile]When i first took on magick i was told it is like getting a Medical degree(quote Dion)-.
Re: Is ceremonial magic like a religion?
What i suggest you do is to start the work. All these questions will find answers in time. I suggest, as i do with everyone else, to dedicate you life to magick. Make ritual, reading and meditation your friend.
Magick, is in reality, a tool for the magickan to do his will. For example, how else would you deal with the forces of the abyss? However, as you do with any organization, there are always those who will follow it dogmatically and treat it like a religion. I have seen this many times.
Q
Magick, is in reality, a tool for the magickan to do his will. For example, how else would you deal with the forces of the abyss? However, as you do with any organization, there are always those who will follow it dogmatically and treat it like a religion. I have seen this many times.
Q
Re: Is ceremonial magic like a religion?
I guess I'm a bit enthusiatic but thanks for giving all my questions a good shot. I've already started down that path and I really have a lot of reading and practicing to do but I'm ready and excited for it. I hope I can share some of my experiences with you all. [smile]
The Whole Great Thing
I want to add some more to this. One of the reasons ceremonial magick feels sort of like a religion is because of the idea of "the great work". I was attracted to ceremonial magick because I had a similar life goal in regards to the spiritual. I wanted to find out the truth about the supernartual (and still do) . I wanted to see if God, ghosts, spirits, and what have you were real. I am also very much interested in philosophy and self improvement. So, naturally, I was interested in this idea of the "great work". I considered my own search "the great work" but reading more I'm not sure if I'm interested in the "high" magick definition of it.
From what I understand it's about finding God or enlightenment, or whatever you'd like to call the highest spiritual experience, and all the life transforming experiences that come from doing high magick, right? But for me, I'm studying all of this with skeptism. I study magick with the hopes that the supernatural might be proven to be real. I'm not a hardcore skeptic refusing to give magick a chance but I still don't really believe in God or englightenment (which is such a vague idea) or guardian angels.
Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that if ceremonial magick is supposed to be about "high" magick and doing the great work then that's religious. Its a set of beliefs about how the world works isn't it? And if you're following a certain magical order then you even have a specific set of rituals. It makes the assumption that God, or englightenment is real and is THE goal and everything else is "low" in regards to magick.
Who decided to call to some magical practices low and some high? Even things like healing is considered "low"! (Imagine telling your doctor that he practices "low" science [rofl] ) What is the true purpose of "the great work" if your supposed to eschew anything to do with your own humanly needs or to help anyone? By the way, what is the true purpose of "conversing with your Holy Guardian Angel" anyway? High magick seems to have the same goals as many eastern religions. I used to be very interested in Vaishnavism and they had the same beliefs really. Everything was about reaching that ultimate goal or connecting with God and that every bit of your life had contribute to this goal. Maybe high magick maybe not go this far it seems a little bit similar.
From what I understand it's about finding God or enlightenment, or whatever you'd like to call the highest spiritual experience, and all the life transforming experiences that come from doing high magick, right? But for me, I'm studying all of this with skeptism. I study magick with the hopes that the supernatural might be proven to be real. I'm not a hardcore skeptic refusing to give magick a chance but I still don't really believe in God or englightenment (which is such a vague idea) or guardian angels.
Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that if ceremonial magick is supposed to be about "high" magick and doing the great work then that's religious. Its a set of beliefs about how the world works isn't it? And if you're following a certain magical order then you even have a specific set of rituals. It makes the assumption that God, or englightenment is real and is THE goal and everything else is "low" in regards to magick.
Who decided to call to some magical practices low and some high? Even things like healing is considered "low"! (Imagine telling your doctor that he practices "low" science [rofl] ) What is the true purpose of "the great work" if your supposed to eschew anything to do with your own humanly needs or to help anyone? By the way, what is the true purpose of "conversing with your Holy Guardian Angel" anyway? High magick seems to have the same goals as many eastern religions. I used to be very interested in Vaishnavism and they had the same beliefs really. Everything was about reaching that ultimate goal or connecting with God and that every bit of your life had contribute to this goal. Maybe high magick maybe not go this far it seems a little bit similar.
Re: Is ceremonial magic like a religion?
Of course your search is the Great Work, we all have to start somewhere, and one thing leads to another which leads to another million things. I'm not trying to say that you will inevitably conform to the traditional notions eventually. But you will. Not sure why I even wrote this paragraph.
You're correct, it's all about that. And once again, that's it, skepticism is a good thing. I just don't like the word "supernatural", because there's no such thing, everything is natural. What happens is that some things might be hard to study or even see. You're doing the most logical thing by first convincing yourself of this new layer of reality, which actually isn't new at all, but hey, I'm getting sidetracked.
Now, stop right there. Ceremonial magic isn't "supposed" to be about High Magick. It is just what the name says, ceremonial, you do what you want, including focusing on low Magick. Now, of course I don't recommend this course of action. In fact, I think it is foolish and will cause nothing but trouble. Especially for you if you are trying to have scientific evidence of "supernatural" stuff, High Magick is the way to go. Start/continue the work and you'll get it. Well, that if you want to know my opinion about it. If you don't, just ignore the last 5 sentences. Now that we got the definition out of the way, I'll go on with your question. Yes, you could say that is religious. But that is just a word. It's religious, it's not religious, who cares? Read Levi, man. So... As for being a set of beliefs, not so sure about this. What beliefs? This is what skepticism if for. Test stuff. Any "belief" is just a tool. Now, of course there are things that are more "real" or "true" (beware of these words, though), and this is why mages "believe" in them, because it's been used or worked with over and over.
Oh well, now we're getting on something that is not quite my jurisdiction. You see, mundane stuff like healing isn't always low... Or is it? This can't be generalized. Let's make it simple. Is it your Will to do x? Then do x. Even if I could, for example, heal anyone of any injury or illness just by touching them, I wouldn't go around helping everybody. Why not? I'm not a Magus. I can't pretend to know that someone isn't going through something they chose to go through, to "burn" bad karma or what have you... Man, this is getting extensive. You see, this is the problem with Magick. Unless you already know something, it is hard to explain. There are certain situations in which I can see why it would be someone's Will to heal or do something like that. Anyway... just to end this, the purpose of the K&C with the HGA is to know your True Will.
I hope I didn't confuse you.
You're correct, it's all about that. And once again, that's it, skepticism is a good thing. I just don't like the word "supernatural", because there's no such thing, everything is natural. What happens is that some things might be hard to study or even see. You're doing the most logical thing by first convincing yourself of this new layer of reality, which actually isn't new at all, but hey, I'm getting sidetracked.
Now, stop right there. Ceremonial magic isn't "supposed" to be about High Magick. It is just what the name says, ceremonial, you do what you want, including focusing on low Magick. Now, of course I don't recommend this course of action. In fact, I think it is foolish and will cause nothing but trouble. Especially for you if you are trying to have scientific evidence of "supernatural" stuff, High Magick is the way to go. Start/continue the work and you'll get it. Well, that if you want to know my opinion about it. If you don't, just ignore the last 5 sentences. Now that we got the definition out of the way, I'll go on with your question. Yes, you could say that is religious. But that is just a word. It's religious, it's not religious, who cares? Read Levi, man. So... As for being a set of beliefs, not so sure about this. What beliefs? This is what skepticism if for. Test stuff. Any "belief" is just a tool. Now, of course there are things that are more "real" or "true" (beware of these words, though), and this is why mages "believe" in them, because it's been used or worked with over and over.
Oh well, now we're getting on something that is not quite my jurisdiction. You see, mundane stuff like healing isn't always low... Or is it? This can't be generalized. Let's make it simple. Is it your Will to do x? Then do x. Even if I could, for example, heal anyone of any injury or illness just by touching them, I wouldn't go around helping everybody. Why not? I'm not a Magus. I can't pretend to know that someone isn't going through something they chose to go through, to "burn" bad karma or what have you... Man, this is getting extensive. You see, this is the problem with Magick. Unless you already know something, it is hard to explain. There are certain situations in which I can see why it would be someone's Will to heal or do something like that. Anyway... just to end this, the purpose of the K&C with the HGA is to know your True Will.
I hope I didn't confuse you.