As above so below...

[biax]

How does one actually affect the above so that the below manifests

Why are those symbols so important? Yet at the same time seeming "evil"?

[TheSeeker]

What symbols? [confused2]

[biax]

drawing hexagrams with chalk on the ground, etc. placing dead animals? or dolls .. and chanting weird stuff.. what's that all about?

[Frater ALV]

drawing hexagrams with chalk on the ground, etc. placing dead animals? or dolls .. and chanting weird stuff.. what's that all about?

Don't forget romping around skyclad in the woods and fellating unicorns... [unsure]

[TheSeeker]

To begin understanding the concept of As Above, So Below,
go here:
http://english.grimoar.cz/

Seek ye out The Emerald Tablet of Hermes Trismegistos... [eek]

[Frater ALV]

Which reminds me; been a while since I studied my copy... [thumbup]

[sylas vael]

the metaphorical "above & below". macrocosm & microcosm. the objective & subjective universe..... symbols serve as links to abstract concepts. expressing the formless with form. name - shape - number... these are the keys to the kingdom.

[Jack-o-diamonds]

i've heard so many different interpretations of 'as above so below', unless you read said book ^ the emerald tablet of Hermes or study original Hermeticism... you'll go in every direction.

and who draws circles around dead animals? i sure don't.

[biax]

ok i've read the tablet..

why can't anyone just tell us straight and direct.. why the riddles?

so in order to manifest:

we need to first discover ourselves, "thyself" and separate it from the "ego". so long as both are satisfied, then our wish will work out?

what's this about father as sun and mother as moon? (literally or that there's a spiritual side to sun and moon that we can't see?)
so the product is earth... of which we must extract from. (fire? gross matter?) what?

ascend... and fix subtle and important things in our lives?

so many translations and they are all saying the exact same thing! how come the -lower- i don't get it!?!

[Stale1]

Well, if you are interested in Hemeticism there is a book i liked.
It's called Kybalion. Not big, about 60 pages.Fairly simple.
Seems to me to be made for begginers.
You can find it here: http://www.hermetics.org/library/Library_Hermetic.html

[Frater ALV]

One has to accept that one is a beginner before one can begin.

[biax]

One has accepted being a beginner. One has begun work. One reads and one doesn't understand. One searches and asks, one still doesn't know. To know is first to understand. How does one understand when one doesn't understand? One has to rise to the level to understand. How does one rise to such level?

[Vashta]

Patience, discipline

Getting connected with your higher self, the great work as some may call it, is exactly that; a great work, encompassing all aspects of your life. It can't really be told directly because we are all different, my understanding and your understanding and everyone else's understanding is not the same understanding, even if we understand each other. Wow, that was a mouthful, lol.

It's like.. your brain is this organic computer, but it's not like a computer in the sense that it rolls off a production line identical to the last; each one has unique pathways, unique routes, that require unique experiences to understand and integrate with the "above". I can't give you the understanding because I can't see what it'll take to trigger the understanding within you, which is perhaps because my understanding doesn't go in that direction It may well be that there's a master out there who can trigger the understanding in you, but, I wouldn't hold my breath

The whole "Above"/"below" thing, I tend to think of it as more "within" and "outwith", but that doesn't roll off the tongue so easily I think that learning to be in tune with your higher self is really helped by working to expand your awareness into your surroundings, because, in a sense, you are your surroundings. I recommend spending a little time just quietening the mind and observing life around you, really try to open yourself up to experiencing the world around you. The only real way to advance in this field is through direct living experience, and observation is half the battle; without observation you can learn nothing. The other half is practise, of course, so, find a technique, and practise it every day, expand on it in time, add more techniques, observe and come to form your own understanding. I guess LBRP wouldn't be a bad place to start, a lot of magic users start off with LBRP'ing until they're blue in the face

[biax]

Patience, discipline

Getting connected with your higher self, the great work as some may call it, is exactly that; a great work, encompassing all aspects of your life. It can't really be told directly because we are all different, my understanding and your understanding and everyone else's understanding is not the same understanding, even if we understand each other. Wow, that was a mouthful, lol.

It's like.. your brain is this organic computer, but it's not like a computer in the sense that it rolls off a production line identical to the last; each one has unique pathways, unique routes, that require unique experiences to understand and integrate with the "above". I can't give you the understanding because I can't see what it'll take to trigger the understanding within you, which is perhaps because my understanding doesn't go in that direction It may well be that there's a master out there who can trigger the understanding in you, but, I wouldn't hold my breath

The whole "Above"/"below" thing, I tend to think of it as more "within" and "outwith", but that doesn't roll off the tongue so easily I think that learning to be in tune with your higher self is really helped by working to expand your awareness into your surroundings, because, in a sense, you are your surroundings. I recommend spending a little time just quietening the mind and observing life around you, really try to open yourself up to experiencing the world around you. The only real way to advance in this field is through direct living experience, and observation is half the battle; without observation you can learn nothing. The other half is practise, of course, so, find a technique, and practise it every day, expand on it in time, add more techniques, observe and come to form your own understanding. I guess LBRP wouldn't be a bad place to start, a lot of magic users start off with LBRP'ing until they're blue in the face

The Kabbalah says there is no reality. Everything's changing within us. You say "you are your surroundings". For a while, this has been bothering me... so if what we call 'reality' is an illusion (Gurdjeff calls it SLEEP), and the world changes inside me,then am I not asking questions within right now? Then who are you? Are you me too? (not a troll question)

I got up deciding to work on becoming more aware, to stop imagining things and be only here and now (shut down thoughts), and start realizing what I'm actually doing and to try and remember myself for the day. Oh goodness, it's way harder than I think it is. I'll INSTANTANEOUSLY forget what I'm doing and my goal and thus forget myself.

So now is to find a technique to achieve what first? [self awareness | here and now | self remembering]. I'm so terribly poor at this I need to really begin ground up.

[Vashta]

I would say yes, in a sense I am you too, I'm not so much a kabbalist, more a tantrika, my belief is that we're all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively through the collected perspectives of its component parts, so, to me, the idea of it all being a dream stands to reason - I tend to think of life as a thought-experiment or simulation, but imbued with life, or imagined by a consciousness that's so far beyond anything we can conceive of that granting life to its own thoughts even on such a massive scale is childsplay.

I personally am not aversed to losing yourself in the moment like that - I think it can be one of the most beautiful experiences there is, sometimes, but a little grounding when you need to get back to work can't hurt. Even just sitting down for a moment and taking a few deep breaths to focus back on what you need to be doing.

If hermetics is what you've chosen as a path at least to start on, then generally speaking the Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram (LBRP) is the first thing you should practise, it's a ritual that's intended to help set you up internally for the kinds of advancements in your self that you're looking for, although a hermeticist could tell you more about it than I can

[biax]

I would say yes, in a sense I am you too, I'm not so much a kabbalist, more a tantrika, my belief is that we're all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively through the collected perspectives of its component parts, so, to me, the idea of it all being a dream stands to reason - I tend to think of life as a thought-experiment or simulation, but imbued with life, or imagined by a consciousness that's so far beyond anything we can conceive of that granting life to its own thoughts even on such a massive scale is childsplay.

I personally am not aversed to losing yourself in the moment like that - I think it can be one of the most beautiful experiences there is, sometimes, but a little grounding when you need to get back to work can't hurt. Even just sitting down for a moment and taking a few deep breaths to focus back on what you need to be doing.

If hermetics is what you've chosen as a path at least to start on, then generally speaking the Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram (LBRP) is the first thing you should practise, it's a ritual that's intended to help set you up internally for the kinds of advancements in your self that you're looking for, although a hermeticist could tell you more about it than I can

You're not so much a kabbalist but something else. Is this a subjective opinion that your mind decided or that your consciousness led you to? OK, you might not understand me. I'm in complete disarray right now. What I perceive and feel as real, it's now being suggested that none are real. I make no decisions. I'm just a human bot that's been slowly presented this information so that this bot will wake up one day to its master? How many here will accept this as -true-?

Are we the same consciousness, but in separate bodies that have the ability to "perceive and think" with the limited incomplete information its given?

Actually, the problem now is, I don't know what I'm doing. That's why I'm finding answers. OK, so what I need to be doing is finding answers. They keep talking about self-knowledge and 'know thyself'. OK, I'll work on this. In getting there, is that what you're suggesting as one of the most beautiful experiences?

I didn't know hermetics is a path. In fact, I don't know how many paths there are. Kabbalah says there are 2 paths. One is the path of suffering and the other is the -shortcut-. So now there's a hermetic path. There are two parts that got me interested. Problem now is, I'm still very egoistic in nature, and I know it. Im only interested in pleasures, and if there are to be new types of pleasure then that's what I want to.

So to my understanding, we can manifest what we desire, it's been said here and there. I still have a lot of 'worldly' desires that I have not achieved. To do this (better), one should enter the spiritual realm. The spiritual realm says if one achieves enlightenment, one can have bliss and not wish for worldly desires any longer. Yet at the same time, so long as I desire all of such, I won't reach that spiritual realm. LOL.

Is my information correct so far? So what other paths are there actually Vashta? How many paths are there really. I've read different things and there just seem to be so many paths. Some say this is the ONLY way, others suggest a few paths.

[Vashta]

I just say I'm not a kabbalist because I haven't studied kaballah in any real depth

The real/unreal thing is tricky to get your mind around. Try not to stress over it, the understanding develops with time. The bot analogy isn't too far off; we all have this programming that's gotten into us, it makes us react instead of respond. For example, if someone does something mean to you, you might either react by doing something mean straight back, or respond by doing something that negates the meanness. Just as an example. The difference being that a reaction is automatic based on what's programmed into you, and a response is deliberate based on what you've decided is the proper course of action. Learning to overcome your programming is important when seeking to connect to your higher self. Without this kind of response, you may as well be a walking pile of pavlovian conditioning.

I believe we're all the same consciousness, yes, although I believe it's beyond comprehension, unless you're like.. buddha. But, that said, this is a belief, and beliefs are beliefs because they are unproven. Like folks have said above: mostly you'll have to figure it out in a way that makes sense to you.

Paths, well, I'm using the term to refer to the many many different belief systems you can work in when you're working at reaching your higher self. Although I guess it could be said that there are only 2 paths: aiming to find your higher self, or living as a walking bag of conditioning What I'm talking about is more, just as examples, wicca, hermeticism, tantra, buddhism, gnosticism, shamanism, etc etc etc. In this sense, there are as many paths as there are people in the world.

I can't agree with any belief that says it's the only path to enlightenment, I just don't believe such a thing exists, I believe all spiritual paths lead to the same destination. As for indulgence in the things that bring you material pleasure, well, I follow a tantric spiritual path, I believe indulgence can be liberating, and I see no reason not to indulge yourself along the way, so long as you're doing it for the right reasons, and not simply for indulgence itself. Then, sooner or later, you may find you don't need those things anymore, but don't worry too much about that, it'll most probably take a lifetime to get there

[biax]

I just say I'm not a kabbalist because I haven't studied kaballah in any real depth

The real/unreal thing is tricky to get your mind around. Try not to stress over it, the understanding develops with time. The bot analogy isn't too far off; we all have this programming that's gotten into us, it makes us react instead of respond. For example, if someone does something mean to you, you might either react by doing something mean straight back, or respond by doing something that negates the meanness. Just as an example. The difference being that a reaction is automatic based on what's programmed into you, and a response is deliberate based on what you've decided is the proper course of action. Learning to overcome your programming is important when seeking to connect to your higher self. Without this kind of response, you may as well be a walking pile of pavlovian conditioning.

I believe we're all the same consciousness, yes, although I believe it's beyond comprehension, unless you're like.. buddha. But, that said, this is a belief, and beliefs are beliefs because they are unproven. Like folks have said above: mostly you'll have to figure it out in a way that makes sense to you.

Paths, well, I'm using the term to refer to the many many different belief systems you can work in when you're working at reaching your higher self. Although I guess it could be said that there are only 2 paths: aiming to find your higher self, or living as a walking bag of conditioning What I'm talking about is more, just as examples, wicca, hermeticism, tantra, buddhism, gnosticism, shamanism, etc etc etc. In this sense, there are as many paths as there are people in the world.

I can't agree with any belief that says it's the only path to enlightenment, I just don't believe such a thing exists, I believe all spiritual paths lead to the same destination. As for indulgence in the things that bring you material pleasure, well, I follow a tantric spiritual path, I believe indulgence can be liberating, and I see no reason not to indulge yourself along the way, so long as you're doing it for the right reasons, and not simply for indulgence itself. Then, sooner or later, you may find you don't need those things anymore, but don't worry too much about that, it'll most probably take a lifetime to get there

OK it's accepted that one must purify oneself by remove conditioning/programming and dissolving the ego. I shall work on this.

But what has Magick got to do with this? What's Magick's -actual- role? Is it a catalyst? A method of achieving -something-?

[Tiphareth]

We could flood you with 1,000 different definitions of magick, but they won't really answer your question. They may or may not temporarily satisfy the logical mind's need to fill a void with what seems like information. But, this is not where magick lies. The word won't mean the same thing to you from one day to the next. When you are most definitely are practicing magick with success, you'll be unable to define it. Or you will be able to define it, but you'll be aware how inadequate the definition really is.

On the need to speak in mysteries and code. Of course, part of this has been protection. Some of this is to send the seeker into self initiation. Not initiation as a kind of one-time ritual, but as a path to develop a worldview - a framework, a vocabulary. And that leads to the most important reason. Did you happen to hear a joke as a child and you didn't get it? Perhaps you understood all the words. Perhaps you didn't. Someone could have explained it to you bit by bit. It wouldn't have mattered. Not until you have the proper mindset is the joke funny. The point of a joke is not to be understood logically - to convey information. It's supposed to produce an emotional reaction.

How is it that, even once understood, a joke can produce a greater emotional reaction depending on the teller and the method of delivery?

Your frustration is exactly what's supposed to happen.