No path

[Serenitydawn]

I've posted before about combing LHP and RHP, but since I didn't understand what I was getting at when I posted it I thought it best to create a new thread. I finally understand what I've been babbling about all this time. LHP and RHP are nothing more than illusions. A reason to hide behind morals. LHP has morals? Yes, they just don't know it. We use our paths as an excuse to hide from things we don't want to see. As LHP you can say, RHP is "weak" for submitting to something other than Self so they are "wrong." Yes, this is where I was stuck. RHP does the same thing, I see it on this forum all the time. "Stupid LHP practitioners are selfish and wrong." Truth is there is no right and wrong. So if you hate LHP and have never done it, you should try switching. If you've never been RHP and have always been LHP...switch. Do what you hate most to destroy your illusions. I started out as a Christian, something I had a really hard time admitting until this morning. I was raised by a Catholic father and a Lutheran mother. We did not go to church every Sunday, only on holidays when I was young and then they stopped altogether (except weddings and funerals). When I was 10 I started questioning EVERYTHING and didn't like the answers, so started "switching sides." I've been LHP for a very long time. Thought I had no morals. Then this morning I was talking with a friend about needing to get in touch with my True Self. To do so I had to submit to her (True Self). I had to talk it out with my friend first. It was such a horrible thing, it was one of my "morals" or in essence a "sin" (which my friend pointed out to me). Submitting to my true self broke something, and then I saw this. Understood that there is no right and wrong, and to get anywhere you have to kill all those thought patterns.

[Gaeus]

I agree with you completely!!! Not only are you picking sides and limiting your own potential but you can cause an internal decay because of this. I am from the other side you could say. I was raised Christian as well and even after I turned my back on my faith I strived to do the right thing. Np allows you to find yourself. Your concious and your needs. Magic in my opinion is about breaking the bounds or expanding reality. Hiw is this possible if you limit yourself? Food for the brain.

[Serenitydawn]

Magic in my opinion is about breaking the bounds or expanding reality.

Yes exactly, and I would add to achieve perfection. [thumbup]

[TheSeeker]

Submitting to my true self broke something, and then I saw this. Understood that there is no right and wrong, and to get anywhere you have to kill all those thought patterns.

Yeah, okay, that was smrt. Stoopit Return Key...
Not you, SD. I'm having Keyboard issues... [rolleyes]

Anyway, *ahem* I read your post above, SD, and I think it was something like this that led me onto my current chapter in this adventure in the esoteric. I grew up in a predominantly Christian culture, but neither of my parents were religious. We're in Canada, eh, so they were more like Socialists --my Dad actually identified as a Humanist, so my perspective might be a bit different. We never attended church unless it was for someone's wedding. In fact, my entire idea of what the Bible was about was based on Charleton Heston movies. What that left me with was a desire to seek out Spirituality and Religion, and to learn what these things meant as they applied to different people around the world, and is in part why I'm an Anthropologist now.
When my current wife and I married, back in '95, we were Handfasted as Wiccans, by a Priestess --it's legal here, because we had both agreed that we needed to instill some kind of Spirituality into the family we were planning. We were part of working Group, a Circle if you will, that was itself affiliated with a Wiccan Church group. We attended rituals and ceremonies at the Church's space regularly. Then, one day it came to light that one of the Church's founders had been renting out adjacent living space in the building to recently released sex offenders and rapists, as a kind of halfway house arrangement. To my mind this really contradicted the axiom "Do What Thou Wilt/Harm None" that is the Wiccan credo. There were families bringing kids into this space, and a number of single women --a couple of whom were already sexual assault victims-- also living there.

The question of rehabilitation for these men is beside the point, and irrelevant to the present topic; but, the action of the Church Founder and his decision got me thinking about how unrealistic the notion of harming none really is, which I guess, ultimately brought me to the point that you've arrived at. At the time I was in the middle of a terrible Custody and Access fight in the Courts, so my Wife and I withdrew ourselves from our Group, and the Church's activities to avoid any repercussions via my Ex. It's all sorted now btw... Anyway, since then I've just been looking at everything I can lay my hands on, and trying to weed through the Bullshit that is dogma in search of the underlying Truths. As far as I'm concerned the whole LHP/RHP thing is no different from the Catholic/Protestant system of labelling. It's just bullshit. It causes enormous social problems, emotional damage, all sorts of shit. People need to be guided by their own moral compasses, and if they don't have the sticks to rub together when it comes to doing the appropriate thing they should at least be willing to take responsibility for themselves.

I think you're quite right about freeing oneself from the thought patterns, but I also think that what you are really talking about is Healing; whether it be cultural Healing or psychological and emotional Healing --many folks hereabouts appear to have a lot of anger towards Xtianity in particular. This Healing or Grounding, or Rebalancing is the essence of the Inner Work that most magical systems, regardless of handedness, contain at their basic levels.

[Serenitydawn]

Does quoting my OP and not commenting just mean you agree or did you forget something? [wink]

[TheSeeker]

Does quoting my OP and not commenting just mean you agree or did you forget something? [wink]

Perhaps. [geek2]



Nah, I edited it. Look again. [eek]

[Serenitydawn]

Ah, there it is! [grin] My dad loves those stupid Charleton Heston movies (Planet of the Apes not among the stupid, that was the shit), and all the other biblical movies I was forced to watch as a child. [crymore] I think part of the reason I started asking questions was because I didn't like the way they portrayed the ancient Egyptians in those stupid movies, it was all very one-sided. I have always loved ancient Egypt! [grin]

The only rehabilitation for a sex offender is death, but we could use them for experiments first. I don't understand that "harm none" shit. If you can't kill to protect your child, then you shouldn't have one.

I realized that I also was an atheist for quite awhile without really adopting the title, I didn't believe in gods so much until I realized Set was the one that had been around me. So I've kind of been all over the spectrum. Healing is needed when coming from certain backgrounds, but I mean going a little further. I think if you really are against something you have to go to the other extreme to break it. To get to this point I had to go through the whole spectrum to reach balance and understanding. Honestly I didn't have a problem breaking out of the RHP, but LHP was a bitch to break free of. I don't mean I don't have any LHP tendencies or even RHP tendencies, just that I don't automatically cringe at RHP. Also able to admit to some things that may be more RHP, but I think it's best to not label any of it as any path and just go with it. I wasn't even able to admit that I was once a Christian until yesterday. [tongue]

[Daegon]

There seems to be a tendency towards dualistic thinking, perhaps in western culture or perhaps just as basic human trait. In so many areas I notice this, the mindset of "with us or against us". I remember in my late teens thinking deeply about the subject of morality and "good vs. evil", and ultimately coming to the conclusion that good and evil are simply human concepts, not universal forces. Good and evil are entirely subjective, depending on which side of the situation you are viewing. As biological incarnations we will always harm other organisms to continue our own physical existence. Even if you have never eaten an animal, you must eat something, and I'm sure the plants would rather you didn't eat them (or their unsprouted children). I think that is one of the challenges of life, coming to terms with the fact that we all are angels and demons, and being able to integrate the two sides.
So, umm, that was my long winded way of saying I agree! [thumbup]

[Henochius Simon]

I agree completely with the non-dual approach, but I also think LHP and RHP exist for a reason. In Kung Fu, my Sifu says 'Yin is always Yin, and Yang is always Yang'. We live in duality, so even though realization comes as formless Non-Duality, Non-Duality must still be expressed in dualistic form if the Great Work is to be accomplished in any real way. Again in application of Kung Fu, it is about accepting you live in duality, because if you focus on LHP or RHP as the 'real' or 'right' way, you may miss the fact that the other exists and therefor not deal with it appropriately. This will inevitably creep into the work and manifest all sorts of mayhem.

You have to be careful not to fall into an existential void as well. Having 'no path' and 'no mind' simply isn't practical for the real world, even though it may be the truth of all arising reality. The consciousness that abides must still formulate a personality, and just like spin on quantum particles, you can't have it both ways from moment to moment to moment. You can't get good at LHP OR RHP, you can't play with Yin OR with Yang if you don't decide to study one side comprehensively before pursuing the opposite approach.

This takes time, and without mastery of one you will never achieve mastery in the other.

All the dualistic arguments between practitioners in Magick are contradictory in performance; such as 'LHP or RHP', or 'All in your Head or Spirits Physically Exist'. There is a point in the magickal career when you just start doing more and more and worrying less about where you stand; this is very empowering.

I do believe Morals are important, and I usually take a strong Objectivist approach. Every human must undergo a deep analysis of their own self, and decide what is morally correct for their own being in their own environment. This is also the basis of Thelemic 'Do What Thou Wilt', and brings with it an extreme danger of falling into narcissism, which is the opposite of the existential void.

$.02

[The Cove]

It all seems rather tailored to the individual. In the end it may all be a form illusion in terms of a myriad of things - but what is needed to hook a certain temperament and what that soul may find as a power zone to work within - is indeed a matter of no small relevance, and must be treated with due respect.

[Jack-o-diamonds]

yeah i was np for awhile. then realized i hated evil things like slavery and child-abuse and animal-cruelty and in general harming anything helpless. that means i have morals, right?

i don't know if that makes me rhp, but if so i'm fine with it.

[Serenitydawn]

yeah i was np for awhile. then realized i hated evil things like slavery and child-abuse and animal-cruelty and in general harming anything helpless. that means i have morals, right?

i don't know if that makes me rhp, but if so i'm fine with it.

LHP doesn't mean you are cool with those things. I hate pedophiles and think we should experiment on them. [eg]

[Serenitydawn]

I'm posting something in the shamanism forum about this, but I think it should go here too. I've always known this but never articulated it correctly. The main difference between RHP and LHP is that RHP deals with cosmic realms and LHP deals with chaos realms (besides the self deification thing).