Can it be dangerous to recant one's religion?

[Berdyaev]

I suppose almost everyone engaged in some occult work will give negative answer. Probably it's because people deeply religious rarely take any interest in occultism. I've observed that most "magicians" even despise religion. It's not any secret that majority of them begun with esotericism while being very young and somewhat rebellious towards family and society.

What I think magick is about is increasing our ballance, becoming more organised internally (it surely IS about something much bigger, but I guess it's a good attitude to start with). When I read posts about moving small things with power of will or about techniques of seeing aura or any other activities that can make someone proud of some supernatural ability or let him get some material or personal profit- I think he got it all wrong. And I hope he will grow out of it.

Working with aforementioned ballance implies understanding one's psychical construction, so to speak. It's composed of many parts, e.g. our education (most notably- early education), nurture, important events in our life and by culture that we live in. The culture is based on religion (Western culture/civilisation at least was). Our morality is based on religion, even if we are atheists for three generations.

Deeply within our minds there are concepts of sin (original sin as well), salvation, heaven, hell and many others. [I assume most of us here live in Europe and Northern America so I'm talking about Christian ideas]

Is getting rid of those concepts as easy as saying "i don't believe in it anymore"? Will they go away when we say it?

Perhaps understanding this religious part of the basis of our psyches and acting in accordance with it is wise and secure? Maybe without this basis we endanger ourselves with psychosis or something as unpleasant as it while we joyfully and light-heartedly toy with everything occult we find appealing? We know psychosis can occur when some strong inner conflict arises.

Is there anyone here who was once deeply religious and is now occupied with esoterics, both theoretically and practically? Or maybe someone tries to connect both? I'd very much like to read about it.

With regards,
Berdyaev

[Stukov]

I suppose almost everyone engaged in some occult work will give negative answer.

Not sure if you are responding to your own posed question, nor am I sure what you qualify as a negative answer, but I don't think its necessarily dangerous to recant one's religion. I mean, anything has the potential possibility of being dangerous (the laws of the universe could quit working and we would all get flung off earth into space...), the only real dangerous part is to an ex-member of a religion is the remaining members of that religion. Religion (in terms of how you are posing the query) is usually organized as a system of power. The more members, the more power you have on physical plane (personnel, money, influence), as well as the spiritual/ethereal (belief/worship transferring energy=power). So the members that are still part of the system are interested in keeping you part of the system in order to keep power, but realistically only so much that you aren't a threat to remain. So say you are a Christian, and the "worker bees" (angels) don't want you to leave, they could influence your daily life and fuck things up, putting things in your path that make you fall back in line. Could that be dangerous? Yeah it could. Just depends on "how important are you", how strong your will is to recant (you're a rebel regardless of how shitty your life becomes), and are you more a danger to them being part of the system or not part.

Probably it's because people deeply religious rarely take any interest in occultism. I've observed that most "magicians" even despise religion.

I don't consider myself a "magician" but I think the interest in the occult the way you describe it is a desire for knowledge or answers that the dogma of religion fails to provide. Or even, those gaps and contradictions that religion has that someone wants answered. Many people remain part of their religion (though the view of it changes) while learning such things, as they have a desire to learn more and incorporate it into their current belief structure.

It's not any secret that majority of them begun with esotericism while being very young and somewhat rebellious towards family and society.

Not familiar with esoteriscm so couldnt answer.

What I think magick is about is increasing our ballance, becoming more organised internally (it surely IS about something much bigger, but I guess it's a good attitude to start with).

I couldn't speak to what magick is or is not, but many pagan or eastern religions focus on balance as well, I think that just has to do with it just being "a good idea".

When I read posts about moving small things with power of will or about techniques of seeing aura or any other activities that can make someone proud of some supernatural ability or let him get some material or personal profit- I think he got it all wrong. And I hope he will grow out of it.

Sure it can make someone proud I suppose, it can be a physical representation of a milestone in development. While not really all that useful (sorta a parlor trick, when talking about telekinesis) it could be akin to a trophy, metal, or belt in sports, martial arts, etc. Reflecting your will, discipline, form, etc. But yeah, tons of abilities I had or have are not necessarily useful in the abstract (though mine more or less just came and didn't have to try to get it) but can help if you try to dissect and understand how it works fundamentally.

When I get a new gun, I take it home, I handle it, hold it, load/unload, then I take it apart, look at all the pieces, put it back together, go out and shoot it, and come back and do it all over again (gotta clean the damn thing). Doing so gives me a greater understanding of not just this particular firearm, but firearms in general. Understanding how this one is put together, constructed, how the pieces interact and make it a functioning machine, how it differs from other firearms and how they are constructed, even the history of how the development came to be, where its going. The point being, when you use this kind of introspection, practice, critical thinking, and functional dissection you greatly increase your understanding of not just one thing, but all things related to it and see how other things are similar or different.

Working with aforementioned ballance implies understanding one's psychical construction, so to speak. It's composed of many parts, e.g. our education (most notably- early education), nurture, important events in our life and by culture that we live in. The culture is based on religion (Western culture/civilisation at least was). Our morality is based on religion, even if we are atheists for three generations.

Honestly, with the global information connection age, its difficult to use such a paradigm. While there are still some influences, the internet puts you in touch with way too much information, different religions, cultures, ideas, knowledge that it really isn't that simple any more. "Freeing your" (though Id say more likely overload it with tons of complete crap) has never been so easy.

Deeply within our minds there are concepts of sin (original sin as well), salvation, heaven, hell and many others. [I assume most of us here live in Europe and Northern America so I'm talking about Christian ideas]

I'd say media has a larger influence on these thing more so than religion. Look up the concept of a modern hell and see how much society's construction of it is really a modern invention.

Is getting rid of those concepts as easy as saying "i don't believe in it anymore"? Will they go away when we say it?

Depends on how true these ideas are to you. When you go to tabula rasa, which ideas are at the core of who you are and what you think is the truth? Beyond that, look how the current "bible" has been created and you will quickly see how some of these ideas you speak of are really just the ones the church favored in order to cement its foothold of power in history. Fabrication of men to suit their needs is an idea easily dismissed.

Perhaps understanding this religious part of the basis of our psyches and acting in accordance with it is wise and secure? Maybe without this basis we endanger ourselves with psychosis or something as unpleasant as it while we joyfully and light-heartedly toy with everything occult we find appealing? We know psychosis can occur when some strong inner conflict arises.

About the only thing that occurs within people (psych graduate here) when you question your beliefs is cognitive dissonance and that doesn't cause most people to go crazy. They either do the easy thing (believe the lie/stay ignorant) or change their view and adopt the accurate truth.

Is there anyone here who was once deeply religious and is now occupied with esoterics, both theoretically and practically? Or maybe someone tries to connect both? I'd very much like to read about it.

Wasn't super religions so I couldn't help with either part of that.

[Rin]

I think the true magician eventually discards the concept of religion in the way it's mostly practiced in mainstream society. Why would you need someone to give you a third hand account of something when you can experience and explore and study it yourself? Religion is about letting a person or organization tell you what's out there, magic is about finding out for yourself so you don't need someone to tell you. I don't think religion is bad necessarily, but it's something that should be discarded at a certain stage of maturity. Magicians are explorers, priests are the men who write about and pass down what these explorers say they saw, and religion is the practice of taking their word for it instead of stepping out into the wilderness for yourself. Fine if you're a child, but kind of sad to see in an adult.

Of course this isn't exactly definitive because the lines between magic/religion/spirituality are really blurred, but I think it applies in general terms, especially in the context of modern organized and/or Abrahamic religions.

[Enlilki]

I think the question is too complicated to give a definite answer. I'll stay neutral in my response though.

If all religions have truth about their afterlife then maybe it can be dangerous to recant.

If only one religion is true (based on the afterlife and not the physical organisations) then it would depend on which religion you're leaving.

Is there an ultimate hidden power/god? I mean this outside the perspective of monotheism.

If there's no such thing then the everyone who passes away from their physical shell will be sent in different directions based on who/what they made their allegiances to. Their experiences will be based on those allegiances.

If there is an ultimate, then there is only one right answer and recanting can be dangerous but odds are in your favor, there's so much to choose from.

If you look at how many gods there are from all the different civilizations and myths, different beliefs, different versions of the afterlife. Are they all wrong or are they all correct in their own right?

If they're all wrong then recant away I guess. If there's truth to all of them then maybe there's an element of danger to recanting no matter what you choose.

[Clockwork Ghost]

Unless youre following a paradigm that actively recommends a shift in belief systems, such as Chaos Magic for instance, then you should refrain from changing your beliefs too frequently, as constantly picking and changing just results in a loss of belief in the long term. If youre simply believing in things to get the benefits of that system, then your level of belief isnt going to be as high as someone who solely follows one system. Belief is a powerful tool - dont just go throwing it away for no reason.

[RoseRed]

Is getting rid of those concepts as easy as saying "i don't believe in it anymore"? Will they go away when we say it?

No.

It's easy to say anything. It's much more difficult to truly no longer believe it. When you don't - you really have no need of saying it.

We were all taught things when we were children. As we grow and mature we find things out for ourselves. Some of those things were false and we learned differently. Some of those things were true and we embrace them.

I doubt that someone who wants to dabble in magick is going to lose their mind and go on a psychotic bender.

I wonder if the being worried about psychosis is a thing that you were taught would happen.

[Zenick]

Not to sure about your question i see lots in that post but I'll add some thoughts lol.

For one there have been many religious magicians in the past and present look at john dee I would say he was very religious or look into gnostic beliefs there full of magic and that is just on a western perspective. I would also look at the "arbatel of magic" never mind the jewish religion even though they have backed off from magic mostly. Most cultures have some form of magic built into them even the western ones though it is hidden and mostly forgotten.

I don't think that a lot of serious magicians are relay against religion they just see the flaws in the organised part of it or are trying to get away from it. how many people do you know that has actually read the bible? never mind read a bible in Hebrew which comes off a lot different then the translations. How many books in the new testament are written by Jesus himself? not one. Never mind looking at where there religion came from and how it was organised. I could go on and on but I won't.

As for changing you beliefs thought not necessary. It can be done but it would take time and be hard work for someone extremely faithful look at good old aleister crowley spent a lot of time deconditioning himself from his religious upbringing .

A lot of paths of magic have a lot higher goals then just material ability's and gains but the main stream you hear and see will always be about those things.

[Asurendra]

If Beryaev has some small voice whispering to him that Jehovah will punish him if he reads forbidden books or engages in unspeakable rites then he should stay away from the occult. That part of his subconscious will undercut him or manifest in a negative manner. There's nothing wrong with that, he has to be true to his own conscience and his own path in life. Perhaps he would be better off studying Hebrew & Koine Greek to read the Biblical oracles in the original rather than pondering the Picatrix. I hope he finds peace and joy.

[Bohemian Alchemyst]

How are you defining "religion"?

For many, religion is synonymous with meek acceptance of dogma without knowing why it is being accepted, it is synonymous with not thinking. This is difficult for an ardent materialist let alone a spiritual pilgrim. Unfortunately, the reaction against this variety of religion has been so strong that we, in the West, now live in a culture largely antagonistic to anything that could be construed as religious. There are those in society (some of which are in the occult community) for whom there is no distinction between the most ignorant, gutter level expressions of religion and the most intellectually consistent or mystical expressions of religion. For many, Jack Chick and St. Francis of Assisi are both "into the same thing".

The teenage years are a pivotal spiritual time because it is in this time that the individual begins constructing themselves in earnest and they begin questioning the principles which in childhood were simply accepted. Being a teenager can extend way past 19 and into late life. Couple this with the media's (usually hateful) obsession with religion and it is little surprise that people reject their religion during this time. However, it would be a mistake to think that during this time a person is somehow cut off from their spiritual roots. They are simply undergoing a necessary change and if they return to their religion it will be from a position of personal evaluation and integrity. In other words, they won't be participating as blind followers but as awakened individuals who chose to use a system of symbols in order to experience the Sacred.

This has, as a Roman Catholic, been my experience.

You may find some answers in the writings of Mircea Eliade and Julius Evola and I wish you well on your journey.

[Nepthys]

Is there anyone here who was once deeply religious and is now occupied with esoterics, both theoretically and practically? Or maybe someone tries to connect both? I'd very much like to read about it.

Yes. And I could go into a deeply analytical approach from both a philosophical and anthropological perspective about my belief system, but I don't think the forum moderators would like to see a novel written in a single post.

How are you defining "religion"?

I have to second this question, particularly because your original post seems to be operating under a number of assumptions, principally that what you believe to be true in your religious tradition carries with it a specifically material truth that will have immediate, existential consequences if you recant. If you believe this and this is the paradigm in which you are operating, recanting is indeed a very dangerous thing to do and I would recommend against it. This does not mean you have to eschew the occult. Quite the opposite. I operate within a magicko-religious framework that blends a lot of Southern Protestant Hoodoo spiritualism with a decent dose of old school Irish Roman Catholicism. I still actively attend Mass (not as regularly as I should probably) and regularly set lights and do spell work for clients. The two go hand in hand for me because I have reconciled the two.


Again, I have to echo Bohemian Alchemyst that

(Teenagers and young adults) are simply undergoing a necessary change and if they return to their religion it will be from a position of personal evaluation and integrity. In other words, they won't be participating as blind followers but as awakened individuals who chose to use a system of symbols in order to experience the Sacred.

I left the Church for a long time. I was an avowed Wiccan, then was researching occult orders to join as a Ceremonial Magician, then actively participated in a local Gnostic group before I found my home in the great tradition of Southern American Hoodoo. This final settlement was due in no small part to a well-informed and ascetic appreciation for Catholic ritual, symbolism, mysticism, etc. that was completely lacking when I was growing up and "just going through the motions" as it were. However, this leads me to echo something I said earlier: if you are truly operating out of a paradigm in which the truth of your faith is so strong that there is real, material and existential threat to you should you recant your religion, don't. Find a workaround so that your interest in the occult is not violating the principles you personally hold sacred. If such a workaround is impossible, then drop one or the other.

That being said, best of luck.