About death and stuff that applies to after death?

[Luna_Lapis]

As I understand, death is only the loss of life, it doesn't say anything about existence or consciousness, as there is no way to measure or analyze this phenomena, or the path or passage of the possible existence of the immortal consciousness.

A person can be classed as "Brain dead" or "Persistent Vegetative", EEG's can detect little or no brain activity that allows the individual to interact with the perceived reality, we can't monitor a soul, only activity of primitive brain function for involuntary reactions and the ability to be aware of their surroundings and their ability to be cognitive and responsive to external stimulation.

I was contemplating this one earlier, funnily enough....

I can't get my head around how we could become completely unconscious, that there must be a way that we somehow realize that we are now in a void, would this last forever, or a second?

How can we become completely unconscious?

We know that animals have no conscience, no grasp of human values and are pure instinct and independent or can be commanded or trained without conscience.

To be human, we need conscience and consciousness, how could we know that we weren't an animal when an animal has no grasp on existential questions, all they know is eat, survive and reproduce.

If we lost consciousness, we would never know what we have been reincarnated into, if we were anything other than human or a God and who is to say that a God has consciousness, what if a God has no matter or form, that a God incarnation could be wind, fire, water, earth, dirt or a rock or tree.

We decompose and are eaten by maggots and then excreted by bluebottles, so to begin with, we may want to consider the conscious elements of crap. lol

Death decomposes and produces life.

If we are cremated, we may only have the purpose of gritting a driveway, one that requires no instinct or conscience.



People in comas never remember any dreams they had, but they are aware they dream and they always seem to be trials of humanity.

It is impossible to imagine what no consciousness could be, how it stops and if we would realize if it stopped and how we would stop?

It is a moment of complete uncertainty, in a moment when we confront the only absolute certainty in life, death.

I could go all day.....

I personally believe that this consciousness we are all experiencing together is a conditioned and mortal incarnation of our spirit and we will continue to be conscious in other incarnations.

I don't know this, just a belief I have that has an element of comfort to me and one that makes me curious about death and not afraid of it.

Many people at the moment of their demise may feel that they are just an element or a property, so individuality and the perception of duality would now be irrelevant, as we will become as the whole and we could not refer to ourselves as "I, me, you or them" and other possessive and separate terms.

It can be realized now that duality could be just an illusion, so if we can see that we are all one now and see that we are still conscious, then there would be a very good possibility that this could be true in a life after death. Or rather an existence after life.

We also know that anything we say or think lasts forever, everything that the ancients said are still travelling as sound waves, so we will always exist as long as we speak, these vibrations are flowing through us all the time and we are unconsciously responding to them, moods and emotions can be changed by loose wiring, so electricity is an immortal form, it is also a vibration of light that has divided.

The Hermetica states :"Of the Soul, that part which is Sensible is mortal, but that which is Reasonable is immortal" and "That which is immortal, is not mortal: that which is mortal is not immortal." and "That which is mortal, cometh not into a Body immortal, but that which is immortal, cometh into that which is
mortal.".
I also remember someone telling me about the 21 gram theory, a phenomena that occurs immediately after death where the person loses 21 grams in weight, some may suggest that this could be electromagnetic activity that ceases to respond, maybe it is the soul leaving the vessel, or just loss of blood pressure that can have an influence on weight.

[Rin]

how could we know that we weren't an animal when an animal has no grasp on existential questions, all they know is eat, survive and reproduce.

I'm honestly not so sure about that one. I think in general we humans tend to downplay the intelligence of animals because it helps to put us at ease with the way we mindlessly and relentlessly abuse and consume them. Didn't want to derail your thread but it's something that's been on my mind lately.

I also remember someone telling me about the 21 gram theory, a phenomena that occurs immediately after death where the person loses 21 grams in weight, some may suggest that this could be electromagnetic activity that ceases to respond, maybe it is the soul leaving the vessel, or just loss of blood pressure that can have an influence on weight.

I think this one was disproven at some stage, but I don't think that really implies much either way. Why would we expect the soul to have a physical presence in the first place? That's only relevant if you assume that this physical dimension is the entirety of reality, which I'd imagine nobody here does. It actually seems like a rather silly assumption to make on behalf of the individual who did the experiment. How would a soul have weight? You might as well try weigh light, or love. The whole idea just seems an expression of the rampant materialism which has come to dominate our society in the last century or two.

As for the rest, I have a gut feeling that we're all ultimately incarnations of the wider cosmic consciousness of the universe, experiencing itself subjectively Everyone is a reincarnation of everyone else. Of course, I can't prove it, but it would explain a lot about our understanding of reality and the interconnectedness of all things.

[xartabla]

I think this one was disproven at some stage, but I don't think that really implies much either way. Why would we expect the soul to have a physical presence in the first place? That's only relevant if you assume that this physical dimension is the entirety of reality, which I'd imagine nobody here does. It actually seems like a rather silly assumption to make on behalf of the individual who did the experiment. How would a soul have weight? You might as well try weigh light, or love. The whole idea just seems an expression of the rampant materialism which has come to dominate our society in the last century or two.

As for the rest, I have a gut feeling that we're all ultimately incarnations of the wider cosmic consciousness of the universe, experiencing itself subjectively Everyone is a reincarnation of everyone else. Of course, I can't prove it, but it would explain a lot about our understanding of reality and the interconnectedness of all things.

I also believe this point was disproven.

I also think that in comparison to now, upon death we will feel more conscious. For instance: When you wake up from a deep sleep where you dream feels as if it is dragging on, death would be a similar feeling. Rather than losing consciousness, we are losing the limitations placed by our physical mechanisms. Basically: We bust into a beautiful butterfly that suddenly realizes that it was asleep all along.
[happyface]

[Asurendra]

Consciousness is all that exist, so, why are you worried about death?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVi2ueJrYPk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zI_F4nOKDSM

[Clockwork Ghost]

... I have a gut feeling that we're all ultimately incarnations of the wider cosmic consciousness of the universe, experiencing itself subjectively Everyone is a reincarnation of everyone else. Of course, I can't prove it, but it would explain a lot about our understanding of reality and the interconnectedness of all things.

This is very close to something I've been thinking about recently - what if 'conciousness' is the key, as opposed to the concept of a soul? In this paradigm, when you die you simply switch conciousness from one body to another instead, losing the vast majority of experience from previous incarnations through the strain of being born. As we can only ever be concious in the singular form, and dont have a 'mass mind' like bees, fish, birds etc, then our conciousness stays with us through our natural lives, and is then recycled back to the pool of concious once again when we die, only to be reused over and over again throughout time.

Well, thats my 2c anyways...

[Frater_NT]

This is very close to something I've been thinking about recently - what if 'conciousness' is the key, as opposed to the concept of a soul? In this paradigm, when you die you simply switch conciousness from one body to another instead...

I'm currently re-reading "Astral Dynamics" and this theory is in the book. The idea the author presents is that the etheric body is dense enough that it doesn't leave the physical body until death, and at the point of death the consciousness moves from physical to etheric. I'm not certain how true this is, but at the end of the day I've had enough astral experience to be certain that death isn't the end of consciousness.

[sunas]

Is it because you only have consciousness the moment your soul connects to your physical body ?

[insomni4c]

When I started typing up this post I was attempting to make a point but it's a little off topic and much longer than I anticipated. It's in a spoiler so you can read through it or just get to the more on topic part of the post lol.

Spoiler:

We know that animals have no conscience, no grasp of human values and are pure instinct and independent or can be commanded or trained without conscience.

To be human, we need conscience and consciousness, how could we know that we weren't an animal when an animal has no grasp on existential questions, all they know is eat, survive and reproduce.

How do you know that? Since we have no way to measure consciousness who's to say what has consciousness and what doesn't? it is a little off-topic but I don't see humans as higher than animals in any way, we may be more complex and more intelligent, but humans aren't really all that different from animals. We are trained and respond to commands. Some would say that everything we do is a response to our basic instincts, we just satisfy them in more complex ways because our minds are more complex. Even in contemplating death we often convince ourselves that we live on in some way even though there's no evidence to support it; this in a way is satisfying that need to survive, just on a more abstract level. When religious people go to church and pray and beg the forgiveness of their god, they're simply doing what they can to try to ensure the survival of the ego after death. People go to work to earn money to pay for food and a home, simply surviving in a more complex way. Things like greed and lust for power and all that could also be explained by relating them to our basic survival instincts, being rich and powerful would increase your chances of survival because you never have to worry about not being able to afford food or shelter.

The only difference between humans and other animals is that our brain is so much more complex, so our needs would be more complex. most animals need stimulation and seek pleasure but in much simpler ways than us, the more intelligent the creature the more complex its desires are. The more complex brain also gives rise to abstract thinking, giving us the ability to contemplate metaphysical truths, which stimulates the mind and we experience pleasure when we arrive at a conclusion. collecting knowledge and understanding the universe around us would give us a better chance of survival, so we have science and philosophy and religion to try to gain that understanding.

When we die our body ceases to function, which includes our brain and sensory organs. So it can safely be assumed that if our consciousness survives in some way that there will be no thought, emotions, or sensory input of any kind. That implies that there would experience and perceive nothing after death, at least in the way we do now. The personality, any sense of self, and the ability to sense external and internal stimuli dies with us. That's what makes it so difficult to understand and accept death, nothing we are currently capable of experiencing can be experienced after death. Now what is consciousness without these things? would it continue to exist? Or is it only this physical existence that makes consciousness possible? Those are the hard questions that humanity has never been able to come to a consensus on. If we continue to exist after death it would be so alien to us that there's no way to describe it in this physical existence, death would annihilate everything you perceive as "you".

That would rule out the mainstream religious views of the afterlife, you would not be able to experience paradise or eternal suffering after death. Not every form of life after death can be ruled out though, like reincarnation. Or perhaps this existence is all an illusion and all that exists is consciousness, in which case the death of your physical body would be of no consequences as it never existed objectively but only in a subjective fashion. Perhaps we live through the lives of everything that's ever lived, moving onto the next when this one ends, but then what happens when all life ceases to exist? The physical universe will eventually succumb to entropy, as all the matter and energy spreads out eventually it will all go cold and motionless and the universe itself will die.

Perhaps consciousness is only a product of our physical minds, in which case we would cease to exist. When looking at it from that perspective, a belief in the afterlife is a creation of the human mind in order to give life some meaning. What would be the meaning of all this if death means nonexistence? Ceasing to exist would mean that everything we've ever experienced or done would be for not. In that case religion and any belief in the afterlife is simply a product of our basic survival instincts, a way to escape death and convince ourselves that we will survive. Ceasing to exist after death would be the only option that doesn't rely on any assumptions, but is also the hardest to accept. It's not necessarily the only one that could happen but is the most logical, But considering that all of our science and logic is based in this physical existence there's no way to know for sure until you die.

That's about as close as I've ever come to a conclusion. I generally avoid thinking too long about this anymore, ever since I was little I've thought myself into an existential depression anytime I got stuck contemplating the afterlife lol. I figure that our actions in life probably won't make a difference in what happens, experiencing some sort of heaven or hell would (most likely) be impossible, so I don't think there's much point in trying to reach a conclusion on it until we can scientifically study it. I'll find out when I die and for now that'll have to be enough haha. I'm probably nearly delirious from sleep deprivation (haven't been sleeping lately) so you'll have to forgive any rambling or grammatical errors.

[insomni4c]

Now that I've got the serious post out of the way,

I remember reading a post on highdeas that said something along the lines of: What if when you die you wake up and your alien friend says "Dude you've been tripping for like 5 minutes". Having experienced salvia I can say that that is definitely a possibility lol.

[RoseRed]

Having been dead I can tell you that your consciousness survives. Your hearing is the last sense to go. And you know exactly where you are afterwards. The longer you're dead the harder it is to come back. I retained my memories but lacked the words to convey them properly.

[insomni4c]

Having been dead I can tell you that your consciousness survives. Your hearing is the last sense to go. And you know exactly where you are afterwards. The longer you're dead the harder it is to come back. I retained my memories but lacked the words to convey them properly.

What do you mean by " having been dead"? Not saying I don't believe you or anything, but some would say you die when your hot stops but by other definitions it's not till all bodily functions have ceased. I'm in the latter camp, I wouldn't really call someone dead unless all bodily function has permanently ceased. But I guess it's possible that there are different stages or it happens over time and only becomes permanent once the process is complete.

[RoseRed]

I was clinically dead for over 5 minutes.

[FastBackward]

NDEs are super fascinating. Also very confusing to me. There are a lot of variations that seem to surface when people who have had them are willing to discuss them. What I do take some comfort in is that most seem to agree that love seems to be a major focus for them from their experiences.

Also interesting is that there is starting to be a "standard" for confirming that a NDE took place. Might have been for a long time, but I've only really begun digging in the past year or two. One of the big requirements is that brain functions have to have ceased. Memories forming outside of brain activity puts the physiological theories on memory under some strain.

One more crazy occurrence is shared NDEs. How weird is that?

Whatever life/soul/consciousness/existence/whatever happens to be, there seems to be a good amount of anecdotal evidence from the only people who can really say (NDE survivors) that it does continue in some manner.

Then we get to my major problem, in that if it does continue, what path should we be following to maximize our experience in this life and the following existence? No one I've spoken too has any concrete info on this one. Either way I think I'm going to really focus on ways to increase my capacity for love! Lol

[RoseRed]

There are a lot of variations that seem to surface when people who have had them are willing to discuss them.

Not today.

[FastBackward]

There are a lot of variations that seem to surface when people who have had them are willing to discuss them.

Not today.

My apologies. I didn't assume you would share your experiences and I was not asking you to. If I came across as such then I am sorry.

[insomni4c]

The problem with using near death experiences as evidence that there is an afterlife is that when you are in such a state your brain releases a tremendous amount of chemicals, leading to hallucinogenic experiences. A lot of near death experiences have a lot in common with strong dmt trips. And shared NDE's could likely have the same cause as shared trips, not that we understand completely why those happen either though lol. This doesn't necissarily mean that NDE's do not have any significance, but is enough to justify skepticism. These experiences are very real to the person experiencing them, but I've had some drug induced experiences that seemed more real than this reality (I didn't even remember taking anything until coming down). Psychosis also feels real to the person experiencing it, but that doesnt necissarily mean that it is. Another problem I see with NDE's is that it is a "near death experience" not a "death experience", in some cases you may survive clinical death but then is it really death? I realize that I could be completely wrong, but for now I'm a bit skeptical about the objective validity of NDE's.

[insomni4c]

Also Just because brain function ceases doesn't mean that the experience didn't take place just before then. a common effect of powerful drugs like dmt is time dilation, a 5 minute trip could feel like it lasted lifetimes. Dreams only last a few minutes each, but will feel like much longer to the person dreaming.

[Cybernetic_Jazz]

My dip into the esoteric (drifting from full-determinist atheism) started with NDE's and the bulk of suggestion that there is something more to it all than simply the chemical aspects.

Pam Reynolds is something of a rinsed story and people like to argue that everything the said she experienced could have been guessed. What gets me more though are all the times where you really have an event time stamp such as Pim Van Lommel's guy who had a heart attack in a field, was rushed to the ER flatlined, a male nurse took his dentures out in his state, he was moved to another place in the hospital without his dentures, and when he awoke the same male nurse came to his room at which point he asked the nurse for his dentures and cited that he'd seen him place them on a particular shelf - all of which matched events. Additionally while I haven't read the accounts I'm interested in the cases where someone meets someone during one of these flights into the other world who they and no one else knew was dead only to return and they turn out to be the first to know and that yes, the other person in question really was deceased.

As for all the disparities and oddities - it tells me one thing; the world over there is not nearly as fixed or anchored in a shared reality sort of way, ie. it seems to be clothed much more by the subjective but has just enough objective for communication. In many ways it seems like it's the opposite to our world; ie. here the objective dominates everything 'external' in the shared reality and the subjective is significantly recessive, there it's the subjective more dominant with a certain minimalistic scaffold of shared reality to keep entities on track of at least when they're speaking to another sentience or are in the presence of other minds rather than just receiving their own impressions, imagery, or beliefs thrown back at them. The 'no time' aspect would also tend to jumble things a lot - ie. its something we're very much not used to here and because of that our language is not built to really import such an experience.

[RoseRed]

There are a lot of variations that seem to surface when people who have had them are willing to discuss them.

Not today.

My apologies. I didn't assume you would share your experiences and I was not asking you to. If I came across as such then I am sorry.

That's very sweet but there is nothing to apologize for and you didn't. It's just not something I'm in the mood to get into right now. My very introspective day was the other day LOL

One of the things that strikes me about NDEs is that when people are looking down on themselves and can see what is happening on the other side of the room where they could not possibly see and describe it accurately - how does that get explained away?

[Cybernetic_Jazz]

One of the things that strikes me about NDEs is that when people are looking down on themselves and can see what is happening on the other side of the room where they could not possibly see and describe it accurately - how does that get explained away?

Lol, Skeptic credulity. I don't mean that from the standpoint that they don't agree but from the standpoint that they tend to cherry-pick the evidence against it and have no curiosity about the real phenomena, black swans, or whatever have you within the dynamic.

[insomni4c]

I don't really believe that we're as separate from external phenomena as we perceive it, so it makes sense that a person would know what's going on in another room or whatnot when the body is at the point of near death. When your life is that close to stopping it makes sense that a person would experience significant dissociation which can be caused by any number of traumatic experiences, leading to out of body experiences and a sense of detachment from your physical body. Since you're sense of self would become blurred perhaps you're more connected with your surroundings, instead of "you" being your body what you see as "you" could expand to include the adjacent room or the building your in, and the further this goes the closer to actual death you may be. I guess I like to consider the alternatives when it comes to these kinds of things. A lot of views I see relating to NDE's are dependent on the belief in a soul or the afterlife being some sort of a place you go, while there's nothing wrong with holding these beliefs, I feel that these explanations aren't 100% accurate. But I'm obviously biased by my own beliefs as well lol, so It's just as likely that I'm as far off as everybody else.