Talking to Family

[wombocombo]

Hello all. I'd like to ask you all a question I've been contemplating for a while now, how did you tell parents, family, etc about your religious/philosophical views?

So here's the big thing, my Catholic Confirmation is coming up soon and that leaves me with two choices:

1. I suck it up, act natural, and drive myself crazy like the past few years in religion class. That would mean months of after school meetings, prayer memorization, etc. In addition to that, it's surprisingly hard to fake being interested for me. This is also not a perfect idea because lead them to believe that I'm somebody that I'm not, especially if I plan on telling them the whole story some day. After all, honesty is the best policy.
OR
2. Say something. Nothing specific, just something like "I think I need more time before commiting myself to anything big like this.", or just straight up say "I don't know if this is right for me.". I would like to tell them the whole story, but I know they'd only listen to the first few words. I don't like to talk and they don't like to listen, generally speaking. That being said, I hardly tell them anything about my personal life and I sure as hell wouldn't enjoy telling them about this. Anything as long as they don't get suspicious or jump to false conclusions. Believe me, they would definitely be the type to do that. Having a good relationship with my parents and having a free mind is all that really matters in the end.

Both of them are gonna cause me a world of stress, I just need to figure out which one will less. This is really going to suck and I'm clueless, though I'm probably just overthinking it. So what would you do? What did you do(assuming you were at one time in my current situation)?

[RoseRed]

Confirmation is usually done at 14 years old, right?

Every family is different. I really don't know what to tell you.

[wombocombo]

Confirmation is usually done at 14 years old, right?

Every family is different. I really don't know what to tell you.

Correct.

My mother is the type of person who thinks that all there is to Christianity is being nice and volunteering. My father however is basically the stereotypical Conservative Christian. His reaction would be what I'm most worried about. I don't know if that tells you anything, but I think that's all there is to it. Again, it's very likely that I'm overthinking this. [unsure]

[Asurendra]

Hello Wombocombo,

Unfortunately, given your age and situation your options are limited. It's tough to deal with and all I can suggest to you is that it is a life-lesson on how things work. In your future on the job, for example, you will have to conform to some degree to maintain harmony in the work environment and 'get ahead.' Of course, by that time you will have more options and if things are too difficult you can look for another job. Right now, you can't go onto Craigslist and find a different family!

So far as your occult practices go, at your age and at the beginning of this path you should probably focus more on things that are not, in themselves, visible so no one will know what you're doing. Don't cast a circle in your room and set up a Triangle of Art to evoke a demon from the Goetia.

[wombocombo]

Hello Wombocombo,

Unfortunately, given your age and situation your options are limited. It's tough to deal with and all I can suggest to you is that it is a life-lesson on how things work. In your future on the job, for example, you will have to conform to some degree to maintain harmony in the work environment and 'get ahead.' Of course, by that time you will have more options and if things are too difficult you can look for another job. Right now, you can't go onto Craigslist and find a different family!

So far as your occult practices go, at your age and at the beginning of this path you should probably focus more on things that are not, in themselves, visible so no one will know what you're doing. Don't cast a circle in your room and set up a Triangle of Art to evoke a demon from the Goetia.

Thank you for the reply, I really do appreciate your concern

Anyway, I would like anybody who is wondering to know that I do respect the power of knowledge that is given me and take it very seriously and slow. I have been doing various rituals (mostly meditation) in my room for about a year. I've actually been able to mask it by watching lots of documentaries on Eastern philosophy on Netflix so that my parents can see the recently watched. This way if they walk in on me meditation, I'll be able to make up some bogus explanation on the spot and I can justify it. Another example (which I am very proud of thinking up) is if there is a ritual where I need to vibrate god names or whatnot then I do it in the shower. This way, I kill three birds with one stone! I bathe before ritual, I'm going skyclad style, and I can vibrate words because nobody can hear me over the water. Also with herbal magic, I can just claim it's part of a recipe because I cook a lot. I usually do the longer rituals when my parents are out though. What I mean by all that is that I'm not just some kid who does this because he thinks it's badass, I do it because I have a genuine interest and appreciation for witchcraft and such and I am very dedicated to doing anything in my power to finding who I am and what it is that I must do. I hope that doesn't sound ignorant.

So I do take care in covering up my tracks, and I don't brag about it in school or anything. It's just hard for me to study something that I'm against. I can do it at Church, I can do it at school, but if I have to hear about Jesus any more, I might say something offensive to everybody even though I don't really mean it. What I've got now is seriously taking a toll on my emotions. That's why I'm considering saying something. I just don't know what or how or when or how much to say. I really do love my parents and I don't want them to take anything the wrong way. But I also love this secret little life I have and it would be very difficult to live without it. I'd just like to know given the circumstances what you suggest I do before I make a very big mistake.

[Eremita]

Hello all. I'd like to ask you all a question I've been contemplating for a while now, how did you tell parents, family, etc about your religious/philosophical views?

G'day wombo. I'm sorry to hear about your predicament. I'll throw some words at you now in the hope that you'll find some of it useful.

My mother is a rather devout Christian and was always distraught to think that my siblings and I wouldn't grow up to share her religion. I remember how frustrating it was as a teenager, when I didn't really believe all this stuff, but you're stuck between that place of being old enough to form your own ideas on philosophy, but young enough that your parent/s are still trying to mash you into their own world view.

So here's the big thing, my Catholic Confirmation is coming up soon and that leaves me with two choices:

1. I suck it up, act natural, and drive myself crazy like the past few years in religion class...
2. Say something...

Option 1 is certainly possible, though hardly ideal. Eventually your parents will have to accept that you are your own person, and you will make your own decisions. They may not see it this way now, as you're still quite young, but maybe in... two years? Four years? If you have to jump through the hoops of Catholicism to make them happy, at least you know it's going to be temporary.

On the other hand, I've always thought it rather tragic in a certain way to pretend to be religious when your heart (or, more accurately, your mind) clearly isn't in it. It makes a mockery of the whole process.

Personally, I'd indicated to my mother from a fairly young age (perhaps the age that you are now) that I really didn't identify with all the dogma she'd apparently found such value in, and although my mind is certainly open to all sorts of crazy shit, I just didn't share her faith. Of course, she had trouble accepting this, and I suppose thought I was being juvenile and would come to "see the light" eventually; but after a while, honestly, I think they just give up. You can only try for so long to force your viewpoint on someone else before you have to accept that it's both hopeless and pointless.

If your parents are anything like my mother, they'll probably think they know better than you when it comes to religion, and not take your objections seriously (at least for a little while, as I indicated). But at least by saying something, you've put it out there and from that point on the ball is in their court, as it were.

Now, as regards the Confirmation - I must say I'm not particularly familiar with the nuts and bolts of the Catholic sacraments, but I'll give my uneducated thoughts nevertheless in the spirit of the inability to shut the fuck up.

If I were in your position, and found myself compelled by tradition, desire to keep my parents happy, etc. to take the Confirmation, I would make a game of sorts out of it. Think of it as an exercise in Chaos magic - see, for your own benefit, growth and amusement, precisely how much belief you can invest in the ceremony. Observe how fully you can absorb yourself in the Catholic paradigm, even as your rational self is assuring you that this is a load of hogwash. Make therefore a magical exercise out of it - accept the Holy Spirit as divine energy, let it filter into your being and infuse you with power. You're making no serious oath to the Church here - remember, you were forced into all this - but that doesn't mean you can't take something away from the experience.

Questions: Do you go to a Catholic school? Will accepting the Confirmation have other consequences/endow you with further responsibilities which you don't want?

My final thoughts:

1. There is little to be gained from living the lie of Faith to keep someone else happy, provided that refusing to do so won't result in a highly negative situation, such as you being kicked out of home or something (I certainly hope this wouldn't happen, though I am sadly aware that some parents are fuck-awful crazy and do things like this to their children).

2. Rejecting Catholicism and explaining to your parents that you do not share their beliefs does not necessitate telling them that you are a practitioner of the occult or anything else that might make them freak out. "Guess what dad, I'm not a Catholic, I'm a Satanist!" can just as truthfully become: "I really respect your religion, dad, and I'm grateful for being exposed to all this; I'm just not finished examining alternative ideas, and I don't want to devote myself to the Church if my heart isn't in it. That would feel hypocritical."

If you want to talk further, I'm always happy to listen.


With the L-O-V-E
Eremita

[Asurendra]

Hello again Wombocombo,

I have been thinking about your situation and I would like to offer you a solution. In one way, you're in the same place that the old magicians of the Middle Ages and the Renaissance were in: they had to conform to the Church. Their solution to this was to discover than hidden within the teaching and rituals of the Church there were truths far greater and that were even at odds with the beliefs of the average Catholic and even priest. So, when they attended these services they saw something entirely different than what those around them did and they used all of this in magick.

A good example and place to begin is with the Archangels: Michael, Raphael, Gabriel & Uriel. These are all accepted and honored by the Roman Church. You could tell your parents that you have decided that you will honor them as your favorite saints and might even get them to get you little statures of them. You could thus have a magical altar. You know, what they don't, that they are the presiding powers of the Four Elements and moreover, you can even being to build a bond and relationship with them (you can learn to go to their realms thru mental projection). That way, when you grow up and become a Goetic magician evoking those demons you will already be well acquainted with the positive powers and they will know you. These types of bonds with powerful sprits are very important. You will also know that they are far greater than any average Catholic thinks and more universal for whom you invoke as Michael I invoke as Lord Agni.

It's sad that you have to have this all forced on you. Just remember, the real God and the powers of the universe are not what is being presented to you even if they may wear that mask, which deceives the foolish.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_nr_n_1?r ... 2941120011

[wombocombo]

Oi vey, I just spent about an hour writing a reply that I messed up some how and now it's late so I'm just gonna have to sum up what I just wrote...

Yes, I do attend a Catholic school right now and I'm going to be going on to high school next year which will also be Catholic. The consequences that I'd be expecting if I did just suck it up would be that my parents would see it as me saying "Yes, this is definitely who I am for sure.". That way, in faking it that one time, I would have to stick with that decision for the rest of my life, and if I did say something, then I would have to stick with their reaction for the rest of my life. Meaning if they weren't happy(most likely), then they would never be happy with me and vice versa.

I did love your idea to make it a magical experience, I will definitely do that if that's the path I decide to take.

It's really nice to have somebody to talk to. Before this forum, I only had my own thoughts to answer me, and that kept me very lonely. I would definitely like to keep talking about this Eremita, be it on the forum or via email. [happy2]

-Alex

[wombocombo]

A good example and place to begin is with the Archangels: Michael, Raphael, Gabriel & Uriel. These are all accepted and honored by the Roman Church. You could tell your parents that you have decided that you will honor them as your favorite saints and might even get them to get you little statures of them. You could thus have a magical altar. You know, what they don't, that they are the presiding powers of the Four Elements and moreover, you can even being to build a bond and relationship with them (you can learn to go to their realms thru mental projection). That way, when you grow up and become a Goetic magician evoking those demons you will already be well acquainted with the positive powers and they will know you. These types of bonds with powerful sprits are very important. You will also know that they are far greater than any average Catholic thinks and more universal for whom you invoke as Michael I invoke as Lord Agni.

Awesome idea! Quick question tho: How would I go about meeting them? Would it be possible to just focus on their image/name in a trance and find them that way?

Anyway, that's really cool. I totally never thought of it like that.

[Eremita]

Yes, I do attend a Catholic school right now and I'm going to be going on to high school next year which will also be Catholic. The consequences that I'd be expecting if I did just suck it up would be that my parents would see it as me saying "Yes, this is definitely who I am for sure.". That way, in faking it that one time, I would have to stick with that decision for the rest of my life, and if I did say something, then I would have to stick with their reaction for the rest of my life. Meaning if they weren't happy(most likely), then they would never be happy with me and vice versa.

Are you totally sure about this? From the description you gave of your mother, it strikes me as unlikely that a statement of non-faith would be crushing to her. People change a lot over the years, and it seems to me that you're in a position to teach your parents a lot about tolerance and love.

Again reflecting on my own upbringing, I'd say that my mother is still disappointed that I don't believe in Jesus Christ and Jehovah (at least not in the traditional sense), but that doesn't stop us from having a good relationship. When I see her, we have some really full-on and quite enjoyable debates about theology and science, as a matter of fact. She attempts to convert me, I attempt to explain to her that Biblical literalism was irreparably destroyed by Charles Darwin. :p

A few years ago, when I was still living at home she found my deck of Tarot cards and freaked out a bit. I think she was scared of them to be honest. Nevertheless, she got over it.

I guess ultimately I'm saying that it's entirely possible to learn to agree-to-disagree, and go on loving each other all the same.

I did love your idea to make it a magical experience, I will definitely do that if that's the path I decide to take.

Asurendra also wisely expounded on what I was trying to get at - the Catholic system is just one paradigm that has many magical/mystical truths contained throughout it. The reverence for the Archangels is nothing short of beautiful in my opinion. I feel it's also worth mentioning that some of the most famous occultists of all time were Christians, including Agrippa and Eliphas Levi. So it seems evident that there is potentially a lot of value in the Christian tradition for those with the capacity to think outside the box (an attribute I'm certain you possess).

It's really nice to have somebody to talk to. Before this forum, I only had my own thoughts to answer me, and that kept me very lonely. I would definitely like to keep talking about this Eremita, be it on the forum or via email. [happy2]

Sure thing, PM me any time

[RoseRed]

It's not for the rest of your life. It's for the next 4 years or until you provide your own roof over your head.

I have a teenager. I would freak if some person on the internet encouraged her to lie to me. Having said that...

You say you're interested in witchcraft. Catholicism and witchcraft are not mutually exclusive. You have heard of New Orleans, right? That's probably the highest concentration of Catholic/Christian witches. My Grandmother was a Catholic Witch.

You're learning a valuable lesson here. How to hide in plain sight. Just because the world today is more accepting publicly of things does not mean that that attitude won't change later. Witches and Occultists are still prosecuted today - albeit quietly - because one can claim it as a religion.

Dude, you're 14. I remember what it felt like. You haven't set your life path in stone yet.

I much prefer honesty but it's not always possible at this age with strict parents. Ultimately, the choice is yours. As is accepting the consequences of either choice.

Yes, Confirmation is a Ritual. You seem like you have a good head on your shoulders. You already know that participating in a ritual and verbally committing yourself to a path that you do not want to follow. People have done that for millennia. Mostly to keep their heads attached. The ones that speak up are often martyred. Granted, I don't think that your parent will decapitate you but either choice will have it's consequences.

I guess it mostly comes down to:

How important is the Sacred Word to you? How important is Truth In All Things? How important is being true to yourself - even if this really is just a phase?

[Cybernetic_Jazz]

I was raised and confirmed Catholic also, albeit my parents are both somewhat similar to your mom - my dad also being more on the traditional conservative side but he's far more political than religious with it and my occultism really hasn't changed my views on how national finances or foreign policy needs to be handled all that drastically.

My advice - I would get confirmed. For me it really didn't cement me into any kind of church role, really it was just a culmination and fulfillment of all the PSR classes I took up until 8th grade. After that, by the time I was 17 I really didn't want to go anymore because the arbitrary nature of the culture was really starting to wear on me more often. Really the PSR classes, ie. the after school mini bible and ethics studies, are more a culmination of something your parents want to give you. I think what will most likely happen is they'll be much less 'on your back' about your Catholicism once you do that, ie. there are no classes after confirmation - it's a bit like you're an adult in the sense of the churches sacraments, you show up once a week or how ever often your parents generally go; there's really not much deeper anything that at least the dioces I was in offered young adults in terms of deep education as far as a process of any sorts is concerned. If you drop out at 17 or 18 you'd be joining probably 80 to 85% of the kids who go away to college and become what some Christians call C&E's (ie. Christmas and Easter). Last time I was at church again with my parents a year or so ago I looked around and there's hardly anyone there between 18 and 35.

I guess where I'm going with that - they won't chase after you because you're confirmed. Rather it's more likely that your parents will be chasing after you for not getting confirmed, particularly in that what the family thinks of them and whether they've given you what they're told they need to give you as parents is somewhat riding on the line there.

Additionally you could remind yourself of Eliphas Levi's Paradoxes of the Highest Science - paradox #1 - religion is sanctioned magic. If you consider your Catholicism to be what it is, whether in eucharist or prayer in general ie. as a particular angle or strain of divine magic or theurgy - you might actually do far better with getting behind the psychology of it and even doing better at applying/practicing your Catholicism productively than most people who haven't had the occult education to know that. I actually enjoyed the rosary just because it had the repetition of ritual piety, dialing in on Mary/Isis, and when you really do your research Catholicism in a lot of ways is Hermetic Qabalah that seems to have forgotten what it was or had all the good stuff stacked away/hidden in some room of the Vatican's basement for the last 1500+ years. In particular as well when you look at the Western Mystery thread of Martinism, it seems to have a lot of affinities to Catholicism/Lutheranism/Anglicanism.

[wombocombo]

I guess it mostly comes down to:

How important is the Sacred Word to you? How important is Truth In All Things? How important is being true to yourself - even if this really is just a phase?

For my entire past (which I know has not been very long), I've noticed I'm very different from my peers. For one, I have a very hard time talking to people. Unless I want to talk to somebody specific about something specific and I know exactly what I'm going to say, I don't say anything. Secondly, I've never felt any connection to Jesus or Mary, which if very different to pretty much anybody I've ever spoken to in my life.

It was coming to realize all of this as well as that I couldn't change any of this if I tried. I did a few things to remind myself of this, particularly just growing my hair longer, listening to different styles of music, but eventually this didn't really cut it anymore and I had to look for something else. Long story short, that's what eventually brought me here. The funny thing is that I don't do it out of trying to be more individual anymore. Once I got a bit of it, the ideas raced through my mind and all of the sudden, I developed a genuine love and admiration for it. It's what I do whenever I get the time, and it's more than just an emotional coping method now. I want to learn and I want to be good more than anything I've ever wanted.I really believe this is who I am and I don't think it's a phase.

You did bring up a good point about hiding in plain sight and I think that ties into what Asurendra was saying about how I could end up having an altar and nobody could tell the difference. I think I'm coming to the conclusion that it really would make good sense to fake it, and for a couple of reasons:
1. Like Cybernetic_Jazz just wrote, my parents wouldn't be on my back trying to get me confirmed later on, and that would save me a lot of headaches.
2. It really wouldn't be that hard, I mean from what I'm starting to understand, the best place to hide is out in the open.
3. I could act like I'm starting to take a great personal interest in the whole Confirmation thing and that means if I did ask for little statues\figurines\symbols like Asurendra was talking about, it wouldn't seem like a weird sudden interest in something I never really openly cared about before.
4. No awkward conversation.

Then again, going with the other option would be more honest as well as other perks that I haven't even considered. I think I've tackled pretty much every major angle pretty well, unless anybody has any more ideas. Thank you everybody who's helped me on this, it's going to take a lot off my mind once I get all of this sorted out for sure. It really warms my heart that there are people somewhere- people I don't even personally know that are willing to take time and thought away to help me with this problem. I would not have been able to figure this out without all of your help. [grin]
-Alex

[RoseRed]

There's a couple things I would like to touch on - just from throughout the whole post.

- I was raised an Eastern Catholic so I was confirmed when I was Baptized. My Godparents had to make the commitment for me. I didn't have to make this choice. As pissed off as I would be if someone said this to my kid - I'll say it because it's the truth. You're still a minor. You're still under your parents rule. This is one of those few and far between loopholes when it comes to Ritual Dedication. Because you are still a child, I believe, that you can still go through with the ritual because it is your parents wishes even though you truly don't want to.

But, there is another side to that. I made a Vow when I was 16 and I was held to it by the Powers That Be. I was young and stupid, didn't know shit about magic or promises, vows and oaths, I didn't even realize what it was until years later. My parents had nothing to do with it. I was very close to your age and made a binding oath.

- Catholic is it's own sect. It's huge but it is it's own. Christian refers to the Protestant religions. They're two separate words that describe two very different types of denominations.

That being said, not everybody is called by Jesus. Have you ever actually read the bible? It does not match what you are taught in Sunday School. It was actually very difficult for me to read it the first time because of the glaring contradictions between what I was taught and what it actually says. And it says flat out that not everyone is called. In the parable of the workers in the field - some start in the morning, some at lunch and some towards the end of the day. They all receive the same paycheck - being called by God to be one of His. The people that started working in the morning got pissy and were told 'you agreed to it and I'm the boss - I'll do what I want.'. Some people are called at a young age - the morning of their lives, some in adulthood (the afternoon) and some are not called until old age or even on their deathbeds.

One thing about this parable that people don't talk about is that there are certain people that were called to work in that field that day. They didn't open the gates and bring everybody in. Not everyone is called to it.

My daughter's best friend was required to make a statement of faith in a Christian/Protestant denomination at 14. It had a similar purpose to a Confirmation. She refused. She has not been called and would not say the words to make her life easier. And it hasn't been because of it. I have great respect for that child because she chose the path of Honesty and Integrity even knowing how difficult it would make things for her. She was able to do that because of the way her parents are. Her Dad prizes Honesty above all else - including Faith. I don't know your parents. I cannot, in good conscious, advice you one way or the other on this. I don't know the consequences that this would bring to your life. No one here does.

- As far as I know, Orthodox and Catholics are the only denominations that have the Cult of Mary. If you actually read the New Testament it will tell you not to pray to dead people or worship/revere anyone but God. Even Jesus stops people from praying to Him. He's the High Priest in Heaven - not the one sitting on the Throne.

I never understood the Mary thing either. I was a good little girl - I'd go to Confession, say my Our Father's and my Hail Mary's and it was rote. I did what I was told because I was a child. Until the day that I went into the Confessional and peeked through the screen to see the priest and he was playing with a word search book while I thought he was sincerely trying to save my soul.

- If you're that drawn to this path then I think it's safe to assume that you have natural Talents and Inherent abilities. Part of walking an occultic path is being able to use and control those. You don't need alters or statues to work on your own Psyionics.

The one thing that I would advice is for you to not start playing with magic just yet. You're 14. You're full of raging hormones. You don't know as much as you think you do. There's a whole world out there for you to explore. I do think that you can go through with the Confirmation under the 'I'm a minor and doing what I'm told loophole'. As my story shows - the things you do on your own - you ARE accountable for - and you have no idea how far reaching those consequences can be.

[wombocombo]

RoseRed, I'd like to thank you for the reply. It really was very informative and mentions a lot that will help me get this whole thing settled, personal experiences always help a lot too.

I also understand the risks and dangers that I take when working with magic, particularly with oaths and contacting certain entities. I don't "play with magic", in fact I was insulted that you would put it that way. I realize that there is lots that I don't understand, and that only makes me more carful with what I do. Nothing worth doing is ever going to be easy.

I just don't think the answer is to just stop, I really don't even see it as an option. It's become part of my daily life and to stop would be like losing my closest friend.
-Alex

[RoseRed]

I'm sorry that you were insulted. 'Play with magic' is just a figure of speech. There was no insult intended.

[Asurendra]

For your consideration on the subject of Christian Hermeticism:

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/the-hermet ... and-method

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNBOi81XHpY

[Cybernetic_Jazz]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNBOi81XHpY

Meditations on the Tarot is an excellent excellent book. I'd have to put it in my top five of occult reads and it's still something I'd like to keep rereading even if his analysis of the 22 major trump are from the more traditional French template than the Golden Dawn or BOTA which I'm studying.

When I mentioned Martinism and it's ties to Catholic iconography - two of the most recent popes had this on their desk (JPII and Benedict XVI). Many classify this as something of a modern Martinist classic, which has me all the more curious to eventually find a good order somewhere near where I live or eventually move to an area that has a strong presence for it as well as the traditional manner of transmission (AMORC has TMO but.....I really want the full thing - LCdSM, MdP, JBW or Voix Cardiaque, Elus Coen, CBCS, etc.).

[wombocombo]

Good to know. I actually just checked B&N, $300! Well, looks like I'll have to find an online pdf or something.

[Cybernetic_Jazz]

Good to know. I actually just checked B&N, $300! Well, looks like I'll have to find an online pdf or something.

Ewww. I do believe you're speaking of the original hardbound. The paperback copy I bought was this:

http://www.amazon.com/Meditations-Tarot ... +the+tarot

$16.22 sure beats $300.

Also yeah, there is a pdf online. The thing I can't stand about it though is it replaces have the t's for r's and makes volumes of other copy errors. It's easy to see 'informarion' and figure it was supposed to be 'information' but the 'are's become 'ate's and then enough of those condensed it gets quite difficult at times to figure out what he was saying in one passage or another. That problem is in the pdf version but not in the print versions.

The pdf for as bad as it is: http://www.tarothermeneutics.com/tarotl ... -Tarot.pdf

That might at least give you a start to get an idea of the contents and see if buying the paperback is worth it.

I gave it a five star review on amazon.com (ie. clevelandjunglist).