Why Magic actually does work

[Ramscha]

The words of the sceptic in short: Magic does not work. Transformed versions of this sentence are: Magic is without effect, not measurable and/or has no correlation with something. There are no phenomena!

Following this statement it is of course right that something which does not work and has no correlation with something measurable is not existing! And even if it would exist (which it can’t following the logic above), then magic would be completely worthless.

This conclusion is without any doubt correct, so to confront it magic – to be existing – has to be able to show some form of interaction and effect. Sadly there are no recognized and approved scientific publications (who knows why?) which would show or proof any sort of effect that magic could possess and which could be comfortably be used as a foundation.

So to state that magic however an effectiveness has it won’t be enough to show any form of effectiveness, it has to be one which other disciplines in our culture can’t provide or only on a much smaller scale.

To make a start the most obvious point to start should be the effect magic has on the mind.
Certainly some people will say now, magic makes you stupid, we knew this already!

Okay, stopping the jokes, the effect magic has on the mind is real. I can well imagine that those effects are not that difficult to overlook.
That would be the first carefully taken point for the side “Magic is awesome” and (formally spoken) the logic “magic has no effect and is therefore nonexistent” disproved.
However, that is of course not enough yet. Certainly some voices will rise now saying that an effect on the mind is simply imagination and not real.

That is a good point then if magic would be an illusion it would have the point for existence, but wouldn’t be of any use.
So now we move to the next argument speaking against magic which is in short “Magic is only for fools, an illusion and has nothing to do with reality!”

Now there is a question I want to ask the readers: Is the term “psychosomatic disease” familiar?
If yes, then one should know realistic those diseases are. Who does not know about them will now think it is simply psychological shit, “only” imagined, easy to treat and now problem at all. Or one may even think with reasonable thinking one could cure this stuff.
I beg your pardon, but that is sadly not the case!
It is the opposite. Psychosomatic diseases are one of the most difficult disease patterns. They are very difficult to treat. In this sense they are often even more realistic (because they are ongoing/lasting) then many pure physiological diseases.

Seeing it in that light the point that a psychological influence has nothing to do with reality cannot be kept.
We tend to devaluate psychological processes with a simple “only” (“it is ONLY psychological”), but the psychological cannot be denied.
If one dives more into this matter, then one can see that this devaluated psychic reality often gives the foundation of the material reality.
We already had the example for the psychosomatic disease patterns, another one which should be mentioned is the realm of dreams and imaginations which lead in many cases to important innovations and problem solutions.

Well, now we come to the next argument, now from the fat granny in the front with the sceptic impression on her face: “Okay, let’s say magic has – whatever- psychological influence and this influence has effect on the material reality, for example dreams and imagination. What is now so special about this? Everybody can dream so why do we need magic?”

In the beginning I stated that I wouldn’t let any criteria count which would be either a commonplace or already satisfied by another discipline.
The answer is rather simple: Magic is the realm of dreams and imagination! Magic is specialized to initiate dreams and imagination as well as to manipulate them. Magic in general is superior to any other form of culture as magic has its roots directly in the chaos, the realm where simply no one else dares to dwell. Therefore, magic has a unique and active resource for human potential.

This point should also eliminate the last argument, that one of the old geezer in the back row, which now (together with the Neo-Wicca-, Buffy- and Harry Potter groupies) leaves the room (but I guess the Neo-Wicca-, Harry Potter- and Buffy Fans have another reasons to leave. They actually thought magic had to do throwing fire balls and flying with shiny vampires through the sky). No, the old man actually wanted to make a statement about the aspect of faith in correlation to magic. This would actually bring magic into the area of religion and therefore, in their point of view, invalidated.
No, my argumentation actually is not based on faith, even if in my opinion we don’t have a choice to actually believe things in daily life of which we think that they are true.

Now to come to an end: Of course magic is not every ones cup of tea, which is obvious to me. Some may dislike magic because of religious reasons. They are afraid of magic because they fear Satan, because the chaos mentioned before and the Satan of the Christians are in fact the same entity. No scientist likes magic because he (rightfully) fears the scientific inquisition which would burn him in the fire of ridiculousness when he would ever dare to seriously think or discuss the matter (magic is strictly forbidden in the church of science, thinking in terms of magic is a crime!). He would lose his reputation and could work as a taxi driver in the future. Although most taxi driver already are recruited from the mass of academics but that would be already another topic.

Ramscha

P.S.: Thanks to my colleagues Thefalus and Xephyr for lending me a hand

[Rin]

So you're basically putting forward the psychological theory of magic?

[Ramscha]

So you're basically putting forward the psychological theory of magic?

Basically it is an essay for the sceptics and the ones interested in magick, but trapped in their educated half-sided logic.
Therefore, I took the most prominent counter arguments and discussed them on a (I hope) common denominator. As the spiritual model is quite unhandy when it comes to rhetorical discussion (it simply is too subjective and might be to abstract for the beginner and sceptic to grasp) I took the more reasonable psychological arguments which one can hopefully identify himself from daily life. [wink]

Of course I won't say "this is absolute thruth" as there is no absolute thruth. On the other hand I also won't stay with an argumentation like "This is this because my ghosts/spirits/gods say it is like that" for general discussions as this are, as I already mentioned, personal gnostic experiences and therefore subjectivly and not discusable when the other one has other experiences.

In own practice of course I have to relate on my own experiences and believes in the moment I work with them, this might be necessary for all of us for our own personal development. However, to come to a common understanding when talking about the occult those PGEs would limit the audience for discussion to only those people who have similar experiences as you have and would destroy any objective thoughts from other directions as they "don't fit".

I am open for any critique and thoughts and would like to inspire a discussion about that matter (if possible, without any thought-termianting chlichè).

Ramscha

[Basmu]

I tend to look at these things pragmatically.
Star Trek is not real yet we have an incredible list of technology which was developed into material reality by people who grew up watching and indulging in this and similar fantasies.
Many, many of the engineers and developers who brought forth this amazing tech site Star Trek as their guiding light.
Star Trek fueled the imagination and that is where the magic begins. IMO
Everything begins with the imagination then proceeds to desire.
From there the will to create is applied and wallah, material realization. (hopefully)
Air to Water to Fire to Earth as I envision it.
Without imagination and visualization nothing new is created by man.
And what are the first tools of magic?
That said I have witnessed physical manifestation through ritual with no apparent material manipulation enough to know there is more to it than simple psychology.
Yet that said it is usually more effective to lower one down the cliff than to toss him off the edge.
Being pragmatic, whatever allows one to begin without placing huge barriers of disbelief in the way seems wise to me.
Or in simple terms,fake it till ya make it. [eek]

[Mavus]

Let me slyly quote the Mother of All Creators...

"I did it because I did not know I could not."

Honest desire trumps all cards.

Here is my modified take on it, "Ya but,... I am willing to have it anyway, that is why I am being it."

Magick is real, sometimes it's that talking about the outcome 'after the fact' that is so make believe.

Regards,

[Basmu]

Magick is real, sometimes it's that talking about the outcome 'after the fact' that is so make believe.

This hits me as quite profound and something to shut up and ponder. [eek]
Thanks!

[Cybernetic_Jazz]

Yeah, at a materialistic minimum magic is hacking the potential of your own mind. Phrased that way I'd think most computer hackers could relate. It's finding ways to work with and get feedback from your subconscious, cerebellum, etc..

Probably the only thing that can however bring a person over the edge from just thinking in terms of of singular subconconscious to all subconsciousess connected is experiencing the otherwise unexplainable in this regard.

As for those who really look at the word 'magic' as the ultimate insult to logic and like it that way - I'd say they're playing into the hands of not only whatever money-grubbers are at the top of our worldly system but I really get the impression that the Most High itself really prefers to keep things on razor's edge. Something tells me that Scientism and the Church of Skepticism will be with us for a long time.

[Ramscha]

Probably the only thing that can however bring a person over the edge from just thinking in terms of of singular subconconscious to all subconsciousess connected is experiencing the otherwise unexplainable in this regard.

Well, that is one of the problems with magick. Having something unexplainable makes the whole thing difficult to grasp if you start with such concepts. That is in fact how religion works, following some "unexplainable" thinglike sheeps from the start.
That plays even more into the hands of money makers as they all offer "the unexplainable, secrete, ultimate, holy something"...

This unexplainable thing often is the high goal of several magick systems but ignores completly the basic concepts where most people actually start or try to understand. And that is the point where the first post above should attach, at least that was the intention.

Something tells me that Scientism and the Church of Skepticism will be with us for a long time.

I am afraid so, those two actually substituted reasonable and critical thinking as well as science in the sense of exploring and finding the new, but instead just creating another blind dogmatic religion to follow like sheeps and hunting down the heretics.

Ramscha

[Cybernetic_Jazz]

This unexplainable thing often is the high goal of several magick systems but ignores completly the basic concepts where most people actually start or try to understand. And that is the point where the first post above should attach, at least that was the intention.

Of those phenomena though I really think certain well-aimed synchronicities take a lot of willful manipulation to explain them away as chance. When a person lets say experiences a once in a lifetime event along with another once in a lifetime event and the only correlation they could possibly have is related to the supernatural - It gets a bit difficult to hold on to reductive materialism and particularly if that event is surrounded by a cluster of other really odd coincidences that are also right up there in rarity. It's also one thing to hear about a person meeting a Bodhisattva or having a god/goddess talk to them but when it does happen - seeing/hearing/feeling is believing and you know when something profound is happening internally without a trace of your own forethought. I do know there are some materialists who if their bedroom alarm clock flew up in the air, carved a few figure 8's, and landed back down in it's place they'd have a reductive materialist explanation ready in 30 seconds or less - that's part of what we're dealing with though and as you aptly noted further on it's so much an updated version of "If it's supernatural and a priest didn't give it to me it's Satanic" mindset - just sub a scientist/science in for organized religious authority.

I am afraid so, those two actually substituted reasonable and critical thinking as well as science in the sense of exploring and finding the new, but instead just creating another blind dogmatic religion to follow like sheeps and hunting down the heretics.

The good news at least - I think the Hermetic revival and those using the internet to really research life, find these things out, etc. is growing. No matter how much chip Loui Vuitton, Ipad/Ipod apps, Starbucks, American Idol, and Miley Cyrus we have shoveled at us that still only appeals to a particular intellectual demographic and everyone else is somewhat forced to strike out on their own and ignore the main signal of media because they know it's worthless. Particularly as more people find themselves unemployed and have time on their hands I'm sure we'll see a continuous uptick of people both looking for answers and finding them. I don't think it'll matter what kind of Synarchist bullisht is going on at the top of our governments - you can only play the druid keep-away game with truth and knowledge so well with a thing like the world wide web out there at our fingertips.

[RoseRed]

You worry way too much about what other people do.

[Ramscha]

You worry way too much about what other people do.

Was that directed to me or Jazz?

[ShubNiggurath]

so, magic (with three k) is just (?) a strange form of thought therapy. it is something which is trapped inside you?
it cannot leave the border of yourself. just when you are able to find the magic key which connects you to the other selves outside.
but even if it does, there would be no means to find out whether your thought has left you and touched the reality of somebody else.
there exists no possibility to find out whether there is something else beside you in this world.

does this thought not make you afraid?

the scratching in the wall is perhaps just your (imaginative) fingernails inside your own skull (cloud of thought - inside the void)

i don't want to be alone.

[Mavus]

Magick is more than thought, yet primal thought is more than just primal thought. There is polarity of thought and feeling.

Polarity comes of spiritual fire, yet can be eventually understood as both feeling and/or thought.

Soul and Personality is sacred ground, immortal consciousness, unconsciousness & yet ever more defining definitions.

You want to know me? It happens at the soul. Magick too, is of the soul while also through any science or instruments that include thought, feeling or mastery of polarity.

Everything gets built up by experience, thus use. You can mingle soul with any who dares with you, on and on and on ad-infinitude undulating.

You can mingle by soul with the Sun everyday for instance or with ten thousand lovers. There is no end, no getting out of Life.

All progress is permanent, for that is the way of eternity itself.

[RoseRed]

Jazz.

[Cybernetic_Jazz]

I suppose you might be right, from the perspective that I used to care because collective reality had it's foot on the back of my head. Getting into occultism was partly a truth-seeking endeavor and partly a salvage mission and since I'm trying to reclaim from the inside and work my way outward it might be wise for me to pay a little more attention to the subjective and a little less to the objective when it's not mandatory to do otherwise.

[RoseRed]

Nah, it's simpler than that. Stop giving a fuck about what other people think.

[manofsands]

What I've gotten from this thread so far reinforces what I've been thinking for awhile now, that majik is imaginary. I say it that way on purpose, and it doesn't mean its not 'real'.

I think many people would agree that 'majik is everywhere' and that it is 'stimulated by the imagination'. This is just the basics. It is 'all just in your head' and it can be left at that by the skeptic. The mage, mystic and saint may actually manipulate 'reality' thru ritual, belief and faith. The ritual or prayer is really nothing other than a stimulator or vehicle for the imagination. A way to request results from the 'divine spark' that is within each of us.

[Cybernetic_Jazz]

Nah, it's simpler than that. Stop giving a fuck about what other people think.

Nah, it's not in how I'm wired.

[Basmu]

I think it is imagenary in the sense that imagination fuels and forges it.
Not that it's not real.
We think a thing and if then we invest some emotion in it our will,(imagination), begins to forge it.
If all goes well it materializes. Or unwell if it is a fearful or undesired thought.
Garbage in, garbage out!
Learning how to forge well makes a better blade and thus learning how to direct and focus our imagination 'forges' a reality more in line with our desires.
If I can direct and hold my desires into a tight, powerful, focussed beam I have a laser.
If not, I have diffusion.
For me magic is not the ritual or spell, the ritual is to focus and control the magic.
Everyone performs magic continually.
Some are aware of it and try to develop it into a controlled skill rather than an automatic and random responce.
I know this is very simple but I=V/R is simple and packs a wallop.
It works regardless of our knowledge of it or belief in it.
Yet knowing it and how to apply it gives us the ability to control and shape it to suite our desires.
Good magic does not have to be any more transcendental than forging a hunk of metal or mixing chemicals.
Something will manifest in the material plane which is more than a subjective or personal experience, even if it is unrecognizable.
Yet like cooking, I never get exactly the same results and sometimes they just plain go sour. [tongue]
Transcendental magic tells us more about ourselves and in the long run that might be the most significant thing we can do.
So pragmatically speaking, if it changes something in myself or the world around me, it works.
Because I have yet to master the formulas does not mean that it is unreal or unscientific, just that I am still practicing.
Magic is creation which is why we have a physical realm.
It works because that is the physics of getting the blueprint from the drawing board to the finished product.
It works because God designed it that way.
Everything we do is a way of getting a handle on this undenyable process and why Chaos magicians realized that the magic was not the method, it was the underlying process.
The programming language is not the magic, nor are the bits. It is the process that transforms the bites into something usable and that is something external to the code itself.
This is how my simple nut cracks it. [shh]
Heat boils water because that is the physics of it.
My job when cooking is to manage the temperature and apply it over time to the most beneficial effect.
Once someone codifies the exact temperature and time necessary to make the perfect omelet, (that everyone agrees is perfect), we will have a Science of Omelet cooking.
Until then, the cooking is an art but the omelet, no matter its quality, is an omelet and a rarely do the chefs or consumers trouble themselves to debate the physics behind it or if it actually exists.
Especially when it tastes dam good. [thumbup]

[manofsands]

I know this is very simple but I=V/R is simple and packs a wallop.

Nice post. Question: I know the above is the formula for current,... were you also relating that specifically to magick output somehow? I believe in the "as above, so below" enough that I look for resonant truths,.. harmonics of higher and lower. I've looked at electronic formulas and tried relating them to other such things... like magick.

P = I x E
Power = Current x Voltage

*Power* = Intention x Attention ...? (one example )