Is there a Creator?

[MrDylan1981]

I've always wondered, is there a creator of some sort out there, doesn't matter if you think its YHVH or not, whats your opinion on there being a creator. and some evidence / thought that convinced you that there may be a creator.

mine is the complexity of DNA and the complexity of evolution of the universe / life and that nothing can't come from nothing

[Ramscha]

I've always wondered, is there a creator of some sort out there, doesn't matter if you think its YHVH or not, whats your opinion on there being a creator. and some evidence / thought that convinced you that there may be a creator.

mine is the complexity of DNA and the complexity of evolution of the universe / life and that nothing can't come from nothing

I disagree, nothing can come from nothing as it is already nothing. Though nothing cannot exist as it would be something then. Quite the trouble my mind creates here. There is nothing which simultaniously cannot exist as it would be something then and not nothing any more.

A creator? Do you mean some conscious being creating everything? or some force giving the first spark? If so, what is this force, where and why did it come and act, as it did? Did it even come or was it already there? And why am I applying time on something which most like should have beein already there before time?

I leave the believe and the faith to others. I don't know, if there was some god or some being or some force creating something or all or nothing (thought it would be nothing then....). I know what I know and that is that this moment I am writing it most likely is already past and that the future moment is now. I know I am here. I know I am me. I know that there are many things possible though I don't know to which extend.

Let's see what there is, maybe I will know more some day [grin]

[shaded_shadow]

Personally yes, through I do not usually divulge further than yes I believe in God ( Lots of fanatical Christians in family circle). Once you start deifying humans things start to get political and become less about the/a creator/s. I would probably go as far as to say not to personify the creator either, its just easier and more conglomerative that way, you dont have to say 'I believe in this guy' 'oh yeah, well i believe in this guy'. But I would like to think I am tolerate of all, if not most, religions and faiths.

I get side tracked, yes, creator, also probably unfathomable 'Ain Soph Aur'

[Frumens]

Something cannot emerge from nothing. Something can not become nothing. Therefore, what is always has been, and what is not never was. There was no creation.

[EternalReturn]

I'm more prone to Spinoza's god explanation. Everything that is, absolute totality, all the matter and energy in universe is god. The universe itself is God.

I'm explaining that to myself as 3 nothingnesses similar to qaballah, and Aristotel's unmoved mover. At first there was nothing.

Nothing is paradox. If nothing can be named then it's something, and I think this is great analogy of the nature of nothing. It has tendency to become something. It's opposed to something and that's why we can only see it as becoming something. Because of the unstable nature of nothing, from the conflict primal energy came to be.

This great quantity of energy is nothing because there is no time and no space at the moment, and in the moment when energy came to be time and matter started to exist - the big bang, but not from the central point because there was no central point as it was lacking space and time. And yet another nothing came to be, vast and endless space with matter formed by low vibrations of energy which is the emanation of nothing.

We humans are a part of this process, an evolutionary product of chaos turning to order, nothing to something. And to be fully able to achieve order, we have to have instruments to decode this manifestation of nothing. And that are our minds, and bodies. And we have our nothing too, our consiousness. That's why we are so close with the idea of order, with deciphering the code of the existence and this "big bang" that made it seperated us from other creatures. We like to call it illumination, the fire that Prometheus gave us, the exile from Eden when we started to figure out things, see the good and the bad. And because of it we are made in the likeness of God as we too can create from nothing with our consiousness be it idea, visualisations or other nice things. Like stories.

To escape from this natural process is to bring chaos.


Well, don't take me seriously I try to have fun with my imagination but Spinoza's god, yes that seems like a good explanation.

[Sypheara]

Nothing does not exist, not even as a concept, when examined.

Something can not come from nothing, that is basic logic. I have a very good book on the topic, which can be found here http://www.amazon.co.uk/Nothing-Matters ... 1846947073. It goes into the concept of nothing from an artistic, scientific and philosophic angle and analyses why it cant be a massive problem, both rationally and linguistically.

As the author says:

'"Nothing is not, in fact, a problem. Nothing isn't anything. Nothing just isn't" '

Nothing can not have existence, a thing is a some thing (some entity, value, thing = anything). Thus we can say that nothing means 'not anything'. Nothing as a word is contradictory because by the sheer fact you are attempting to conceptualise it, it becomes a something.

As such, its a ludicrous statement that is untrue to say anything can come from nothing. The ancient belief everything arose from a a chaotic mass of ALL is much more logical, when examined from all angles.

As for a creator, I believe their is one, multiple ones in fact, but that is my own path and teaching and since those matters are highly subjective, probably not worth bringing them onto the table for discussion.

[RoseRed]

I think there's something.

I just can't see how all of >THIS< came about by accident.




And if Chaos did it then Chaos would be The Creator.

I don't know what it is but I don't think it's Chaos.

[Sypheara]

I am in agreement. However I think that taken at its most absurd level, the theory everything came from a primordial chaos is as far as you can go. To say something came from a nothing is patently false.

[Circles]

I've always wondered, is there a creator of some sort out there, doesn't matter if you think its YHVH or not, whats your opinion on there being a creator. and some evidence / thought that convinced you that there may be a creator.

mine is the complexity of DNA and the complexity of evolution of the universe / life and that nothing can't come from nothing

To answer your question literally, you, are a creator of some sort..

I don't tend to derive much meaning from the complexity of things, all I can tell is that they must be that complex for us to exist or we wouldn't be able to be, as we are, to appreciate it. Things are the way they are because they have to be in order to be that, at any given moment.. Conscious creater or random chance, both seem equally likely to me.

[Eremita]

I don't like the word Creator because it implies that the creation was consciously done by some sort of character. I don't believe that is the case at all - in fact I find the idea rather absurd.

There is undoubtedly a Source. If you're lucky you can come face-to-melting-face with it on very high doses of psychedelic drugs. Precisely what the nature of that Source is has made a failure of every philosopher who ever lived.

In my view, trying to grasp it is futile. Imagine trying to explain how an aeroplane works to a goldfish. I think that's roughly the problem human-apes face in trying to explain existence.

[EternalReturn]

I don't like the word Creator because it implies that the creation was consciously done by some sort of character. I don't believe that is the case at all - in fact I find the idea rather absurd.

There is undoubtedly a Source. If you're lucky you can come face-to-melting-face with it on very high doses of psychedelic drugs. Precisely what the nature of that Source is has made a failure of every philosopher who ever lived.

In my view, trying to grasp it is futile. Imagine trying to explain how an aeroplane works to a goldfish. I think that's roughly the problem human-apes face in trying to explain existence.

Do you think we'll be able to that in the future? If yes how far in future?

[Circles]

There is undoubtedly a Source. If you're lucky you can come face-to-melting-face with it on very high doses of psychedelic drugs.

You have an issue with the concept of a conscious creator but you're willing to attribute tripping balls as the doorway to the secret of the universe? Maybe lay off the drugs for a bit..

[Eremita]

Do you think we'll be able to that in the future? If yes how far in future?

I have no idea. Clearly our (that is, the human species') capacity for abstract thought has come a very long way in the last million years. Maybe in another million, assuming the species is still around, our descendants will have evolved a higher capacity for thought and perception that will allow the Universe to make that much more sense. Who knows?

[Eremita]

You have an issue with the concept of a conscious creator but you're willing to attribute tripping balls as the doorway to the secret of the universe? Maybe lay off the drugs for a bit..

I didn't say that tripping balls is the 'doorway to the secret of the universe' - if I thought that, I'd be a gibbering mess from over-indulgence by now. [grin]

I think it's possible from our lowly biological vantage point to catch small glimpses of the wider reality - to peer fleetingly through the cracks of Infinity. The use of certain hallucinogenics is one method of achieving this. I suspect that yoga, sense-deprivation and transcendental meditation are other methods, although I am not experienced enough in any of them to claim to know what the possibilities are.

[Circles]

You have an issue with the concept of a conscious creator but you're willing to attribute tripping balls as the doorway to the secret of the universe? Maybe lay off the drugs for a bit..

I didn't say that tripping balls is the 'doorway to the secret of the universe' - if I thought that, I'd be a gibbering mess from over-indulgence by now. [grin]

I think it's possible from our lowly biological vantage point to catch small glimpses of the wider reality - to peer fleetingly through the cracks of Infinity. The use of certain hallucinogenics is one method of achieving this. I suspect that yoga, sense-deprivation and transcendental meditation are other methods, although I am not experienced enough in any of them to claim to know what the possibilities are.

OK, in that case I apologise. The explanation you just gave reads very differently to me than your initial. Each experience with the things you mentioned will be unique in and of itself, they may seem similar in ways but anyone who has taken different types of psychedelics that I've met will attest that they each give a different high, different types of hallucinations etc. Those I've met who are relatively proficient in yoga/meditation who have also used psychedelics is able to draw similarities between some of the experiences but still discerns them as uniquely different. DMT/ayahuasca/peyote are different again. I mean sure, I see and feel some awesome cool shit that I've never experienced sober but it's a little coincidental that once my body has finished munching on whatever chemical is in there (and I've had a good nap) that these experiences end. Yoga and mediation I consider different to this, there is no chemical injection of stimulus to attribute the experience to (outside of what is already in your brain)..

Like you suggested above with the gibbering mess >.< I've met way too many people along the way that invested too heavily in their drug experiences.. They are just off the deep end, unable to function within society and filled with all sorts of insane conclusions about the nature of reality and people. I've also met people who didn't respect or treat their drugs seriously enough who are also in a similar situation.. It is what it is, me on drugs, I'm not even going to begin trying to work out what else it may or may not be, how could I?

[MrDylan1981]

Hmm, what your all saying makes some sense, i think i call myself more of a pantheist I'm not sure if thats the right term, i agree in some sense that the universe is God and that every Gods and Goddess is just a projection of the same God if that makes sense xD everything in a sense is God thats my view on God however. i don't see it as a person and don't characterise it i see all Gods as the same God which is the universe in some sense

[Procel]

This is a truly worthy discussion.

Yes, I think there is a creator, and I think that religion and science are two ends of the same candle. I'll explain that by starting with the theory known as "intelligent design."

Intelligent design (ID hereafter) was a great theory until it got hijacked by modern fundamentalist Christians. I have nothing against there faith, but they railed that particular theory into something it wasn't. What it says is that there is more than random chance in the creation of the universe and in the origin of life. It is not creationism in a white coat as it has been misrepresented to be. ID theory says, in effect, there is something more than we can measure or perceive with current science.

A great example of what I mean by religion and science being opposite ends of a candle was in "Cosmos" (TV miniseries) this year. The host/narrator (doing as best as anybody can to fill Dr. Sagan's shoes) is what I would call an evangelical atheist. A man of science who wants to shine light on ignorance. Fair enough. At one point he is discussing observations of the furthest reaches of space, at the very edge of where the Big Bang has scattered matter. He waxes esoterically about the theory that galaxies may have, may indeed be, a form of consciousness of their own. If he wasn't tap dancing around the "G" word then I don't know what he was doing. Scientists are often afraid to admit any belief in any sort of God for fear of being labeled as believers in a 10,000 year old Earth, but at the same time they see patterns and order where accepted theory only recognizes chaotic random happenstance, and it doesn't add up. There is order in the Universe, almost as if.....it was .....created that way.....

Random chance doesn't really explain life coming from chemicals on the surface of a planet that has everything improbably right for life. It doesn't explain the spark of life igniting, because lightning striking puddles of chemicals doesn't create plankton, much less tadpoles. It doesn't explain the seemingly instantaneous appearance of new species. There are creatures, then different ones. Really different ones that didn't "evolve" from plankton or tadpoles. Then the miracle of consciousness. This is the big one. Where does consciousness come from? Heck, what is consciousness anyway? Is it something only living creatures have? What about those galaxies we talked about? Is consciousness an energy form? Is life a separate form of energy? Are they the same? Incidentally, I think that is why science can't create life from chemicals and energy. They have tried with electricity, but life is not electricity. If matter can not be created or destroyed (only converted), and energy can't be created or distorted (only converted); why would life be different? I think that understanding is the foundation that reincarnation and souls are based on. A basic, primitive understanding of "conservation of life". It isn't created, it doesn't go away, it just is.

Since the dawn of humanity, the talking ape has sought to understand. To know. We commune with gods. What are gods? Are they the product of the focused consciousness of believers? Are they consciousness incarnate, without physical form? Are they the source of consciousness? Are they that intelligence that designs all? Depending who you ask and what there faith, you may get some strong opinions. People have been put to the sword over these questions, so do be careful who you ask. At least ask from the safety of a keyboard. Then, the talking ape gets his mind around "science", and tells his self that it isn't a religion. Yes, it is, Bobo. Did a wizard named "Sony" or his avatar in the shiny humming box magically heat your cup of coffee? Or, did some "scientists" do it with some invisible "rays" that you can't see? Believe what you will as you sip your one minute coffee, but don't tell me that white coated shamans aren't pitching magic by another name.

Yes, I believe there is a creator. Existing religions and existing science do equally lame jobs of explaining it. I question if our brains can comprehend creation. We see a tiny fraction of the spectrum of light, and I think that is analogous to our understanding of all things. It only looks this way because we can only see a tiny sliver of the pie. Still, we must strive to know and to understand. It's what the talking ape does. It's his thing.