Are some forms of sexual activity spiritually wrong?

[Horny Goat]

Are some sexual activities spiritually bad?

I am going to ask you if you believe that there are some types of sexual activity that are spiritually, psychologically, or emotionally wrong? Are some types of sexual behaviour psychologically and emotionally unhealthy and therefore spiritually wrong?

I do not refer to rape, assaults, sex with minors nor with animals.

The types of activities I refer to include the following:-

Lets imagine that a woman is sexually aroused at the thought of being seen naked by lots of strange men, so she sends nude pics of herself off to a top shelf magazine or she posts them on the Internet. These pics will include explicit shots of her genitals and anus. They may even include penetration with objects.

A woman deciding to become a professional model appearing in top shelf mags, soft core only. Everything on display.

A person taking a job as a stripper.

A person working as a prostitute.

A person entering the hard core sex industry.

A couple film themselves having sex and post it on the Internet for all to see.

A person participating in BDSM whether on the receiving end or dishing it out with other consenting adults. Professionally or amateurly.

A person engaging in what is known as watersports ( peeing ), or sh****ng. Whether alone or with others.

Allowing any of these things to be filmed and made available to others, whether freely or with charge, regardless of whether they themselves were filmed or not.

Promiscuity.

Adultery. Either cheating on one's spouse or going with others' spouses.

Using prostitutes. It is well known that Crowley did this.

Open marriage.

Same sex relations.

Do you believe that a spiritually developed person would engage in these types of behaviours or do you believe that they never could? Does a spiritually advanced person only have a pure form of sex?

Thank you.

[Lucius]

Hmmm, I always get really apprehensive when right/wrong is brought into spirituality. Everyone has their own calling and a right to follow it, so in my opinion no, I don't think that there is any particular sexual practice that is "spiritually wrong", legal implications aside (and of course, abuse, ie. rape, minors etc. is a clear wrong thing, I'm talking aside from that).

As for cheating, being on the receiving end of it, I will say it is wrong. It is so painful and knowing how it feels, I'd never do that to someone else. Often cheaters will rationalize there actions and go unharmed while their partner is very hurt, it is unfair but so is life...

As for promiscuity, I really can't say. I am smart enough to know, as to whether promiscuity is "spiritually right or wrong", is a bit out of my depth to comment on. All I will say is this, promiscuity goes both ways, male and female. But one is called a "stud" when another is called something that sounds similar but with a much more negative connotation. There's nothing wrong in my opinion with liking sex, and having it, but if you are going to be promiscuous, be prepared to lose some respect from your peers, I think that goes beyond social norms, it's something biological that stems back to caveman times.

Anyways, all in all a rather odd post but a valid question at the end of the day.

My final comment would be, that spirituality is such a wide thing, that I don't think you can ascribe any particular right or wrong within it. It's all to our own calling. Aside from of course, the illegal and other stuff as mentioned before.

Lucius.

[Ramscha]

You mentioned Crowley above, so lets bring him in:
"Do what you want shall be the only law. Love under will."

I guess this nails the topic. Lucius pointed it already out, the problematic with right and wrong in occultism and spirituality does in fact not exist, those boundaries are defined by the individual/group.

Yes, sex itself can be unhealthy in the way as can be every drug, the dose makes the poison. If you become slave to something like, lets say, a fetish then this could be regarded as some sort of "unhealthy" if it hinders you in any way. Though on the other hand, if it makes you happy, why not proceed? Though this is a very blurry area and mostly oriented on the "mass norm" though I bet many people do things in their bedrooms aside the "normal practice".

So, no, I don't think that any of the listed stuff is more unhealthy in any particulare way then the normal in-out-practice (except that maybe some practices demand some more effort if you know what I mean [crazy] )

Make love in whatever way you and the other one/s see fit and like. Just remember, reaction means also taking responsibility for the consequence [wink2]

That is all I have to say.

Ramscha

[Shinichi]

"Do what thou Wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Love is the Law, Love under Will." -- The Book of The Law.

As a gentle reminder, Will refers to the mystic Will of the Higher Self or ones personal Spirit, and thus this passage is a reference to Self-Realization and not "do what you want."

On the topic of sexuality being wrong, well, let's consider what "wrong" means.

The occult definition of "Vice" runs along the lines of this: "Any habit or attachment which prevents you from experiencing Self-Realization, inhibiting your Will and preventing you from living true to your (self-) chosen fate in the fullest way."

So, if you would rather pursue a form of sensual pleasure (be it sex, drugs, or that new video game) than sit down and pursue the experience of an altered state of consciousness that even the most eloquent mystics have failed to express in words, that attachment can be called a Vice. Thus, as far as your Will is concerned, it is "wrong."

Notice, however, that this has nothing to do with subjective ideas of morality. It's a far more practical thing. If an athlete wants to go to the Olympics, sitting on the couch and watching a movie instead of practicing during practice time is a bad habit, and is thus a vice even though his pursuit is not mystical. A college student who wants to graduate with good grades, yet parties all the time instead of studying, is expressing a bad habit (partying) that will hinder his pursuit of graduating with good grades -- thus, it is a vice.

Morality that is based on religious or social standards is a fickle, subjective thing. This concept of practical ethics is far more solid, and far more valuable to any serious mystic.

For indeed, it is a matter of ethics and honor. A stripper who is living her true Will can dance naked on a pole all night, come home in the morning and sit down to meditate for hours with a depth her religious antagonists will never perceive. Honor and ethics is not measured merely by what other people think of you, it is measured by your personal integrity and your own spiritual maturity as well. Look at Crowley, what he did and what everyone thought of him in his day.

So, anything you listed can be a vice in one circumstance, be neutral in another circumstance, and even be a virtue for others. I have my kinks. I accept them as part of my nature and move on with life. They aren't important in the grand scheme of things, any more than the fact that I prefer coke over pepsi. It's just another thing.

Though, as a personal matter, there's one thing on the list that I would consider dishonorable in any circumstance: cheating. For the simple reason that, by definition, it involves lying and other unethical, dishonorable actions that ultimately only harm everyone involved. An open marriage or Polyamory is, by definition, consensual, and most people who practice such relationships correctly are happy with each other and their lives. Cheating is hardly ever such a harmonious and consensual decision.

Just live life and don't get obsessed or addicted to anything, be mindful of bad habits, and your spiritual life will be fine.



~:Shin:~

[manofsands]

I don't think anything is spiritually wrong.

Everything is a lesson... and you learn from it.

This is a blanket statement, and I'm sure there are many examples people would like to point out against it. That is fine. But in the end I think it remains true.

That does not mean the anything is immediately good for you. And it doesn't make it 'right',.. or ok.

I might be talking above the topic though.



Sex is a part of life. We can't escape it. We can't ignore desire.

Since it is so... prominent... it must have lessons for us. "Sexual perversion"... it is not uncommon. As a matter of fact I think it is an integral part of the lesson of sex. No body can answer this question for another, because even if the act is the same, how it plays out internally is unique to the indivudual, and that is where it matters.

In any lesson, even the 'dark' ones,... as long as you are open, observant and inwardly take responsibility for your actions, you are always progressing. The only 'sin' is you fooling yourself. And it will happen... it happens innumerable times everyday.

'Denying', by itself is not nessesarily a good thing. Accepting desire, observing it, CHOOSING it and learning from it, can be. The CHOOSING also includes choosing not to.



I think at some point in ones spiritual evolution, in one of many lives (not in all of them), the idea of chasity may become a relevent question, but I don't think it applies across the board to all.

[Horny Goat]

Thank you all for your responses and thank you all for seeing that it was a genuine post and not an attempt at trolling. I really did wish to see others views on various forms of sexuality as this was something that was often condemned by many occult authors, whom, coming from a different era often had very different ideas on sexual ethics. H. P. Blavatsky, Franz Bardon and others all had a negative view of sex.

Any sexual activity that comes from masochism, sadism, and degradation and lack of respect to yourself and others must surely be wrong? Whatever issues are behind such behaviour surely need resolving?

Thank you.

[Shinichi]

Franz Bardon and others all had a negative view of sex.

Bardon was not sex negative. He had a wife and son, there are more than a few rumors about his connection to various Orders that practiced Sex Magic, and the work on the Electric and Magnetic Fluids is right in line with the mysteries of Paschal Beverly Randolph's Sexual Magic. He also mentions using sexual energy for magic purposes in a couple of places, and he at least knew of Crowley since he writes "Love is the Law, Love under Will" twice in the IIH, in steps 6 and 10.

Bardon's system and the lineage behind it is hardly negative about anything in the world. The world, the Macrocosm, is God; to truly hate anything at all in the world is to hate God, and that indeed problematic for the aspirant.

The person who was born to experience the fate of a prostitute, and lives as a prostitute, is fulfilling their True Will; the person who was born to experience the fate of a monk, and lives as a monk, is likewise Good. Bardon, like all Adepts, warns about the dangers of sex magic and particularly the risk of becoming obsessed with sensual pleasure (which, as mentioned previously, would be a Vice for the aspiring initiate who aims to transcend external influences), but the man was hardly negative about much of anything.

Any sexual activity that comes from masochism, sadism, and degradation and lack of respect to yourself and others must surely be wrong? Whatever issues are behind such behaviour surely need resolving?

Sado-masochism and even humiliation play does not equal a lack of self respect, or a lack of respect for others. In fact, in proper practice, kink requires more respect, more trust, and more honor than most people even think about in "normal" relationships. Some of the things kinksters do are dangerous, and only the idiots don't take things seriously.

The negative views touted by religious folks and others who simply don't understand, and the stereotypes projected by ridiculous things like 50 Shades, are simply not true. Some people have issues, sure, but this does not mean that everyone who is kinky has some issue that needs fixing.

That is the exact same mindset that says "all occultists worship the devil," or "all American's are fat, lazy and arrogant," or "all Muslims are terrorists," or "homosexuality is a precursor to beastiality and pedophilia."

It's simply illogical and silly, and expresses a lack of understanding both to the subject of a group (kinky sexual activity, in this case) and of the people themselves.



~:Shin:~

[Procel]

"Extreme" sexual pursuits aren't spiritually wrong in and of themselves, but they can create a truly negative spiritual environment. Case in point would be promiscuity, all by itself it's just a lot of sex. Put into the context of someone who has family around them who are hurt or endangered by it, say kids trying to sleep in the next room while Mom and or Dad is banging away with whoever they brought home every night, that behavior may well have a negative impact on those kids. I know a man who's mother was a prostitute. It didn't do him well. Bad parenting is bad for the soul. The sex itself is not the harm, the ripples left in the wake are.

[Shinichi]

Bad parenting is bad parenting, it's not a side effect of open relationships.

The "ripples" can cause issues, but that depends on how the central event was handled. There's a difference between stepping into the pool and doing a reckless cannon ball on the shallow end while it's full of people. I've met and observed several people in open relationships, who have a family environment where everyone is healthy and happy and understanding. There's also the bad parents that neglect their children to go out to the swinger club every night, but they are just as common as the parent that neglects their children to go out to the bar every night.

Good parenting is a matter of discipline and integrity, responsibility and understanding. This is the same in open or closed relationships, just as it's the same in gay or straight relationships.



~:Shin:~

[Hookko]

As a student of psychology i can talk a little about the psychological and emotional side... and give a very inaccurate and yet precise answer.
That really depends on the person/couple that are doing it, for me if my girlfriend do something strange (again, strange for me) like kicking me in the nuts, this should be the end of the night, because i really don't feel like that and i really will think twice before going to bed with her for some time because I want to feel pleasure not pain. But for other people this should be something pleasant.

So if the couple feel ok with the things they are doing there is nothing wrong. Positions, objects, places, amount of people will make some people feel bad and guilty is simple and personal like that.

[420]

The only sexual pervision is none.

[Horny Goat]

I offer the following, quite lengthy, quote from the book 'Demons of the Flesh: the complete guide to left-hand path sex magick by Nikolas Schreck and Zeena Schreck:

...rumours of "sexual black magic" to be associated with Gurdjieff, whispered innuendoes that his flamboyant behavior only exacerbated. Former lovers were said to have a penchant for killing themselves after the Master had slaked his fleshly appetite upon them, and more than one intimate student of Gurdjieff's suspected that she had been the subject of a lust spell.
One interesting anecdote from 1933 suggests that Gurdjieff had gained proficiency in a practice associated with left-hand path sorcery, and indicates something of his libidinous reputation. At a party, Gurdjieff turned his gaze – frequently described as hypnotic – on his American pupil, the novelist Zona Gale, who was seated with a companion. They observed the notorious magus inhaling and exhaling in what seemed a deliberate, methodical manner. Gale blanched, stiffened, and upon resuming her composure reported (in the terminology of the Work) that Gurdjieff's peculiar attentions had "struck her right through her sexual center". The Sly Man had supposedly bestowed a remote-control orgasm upon her through his magical powers. Even though such tales must be taken with a grain of salt, they form an ineradicable part of Gurdjieff's legend.
This feat recalls a mind control method practiced by Indian left-hand path adepts, who claim the ability to form a telepathic link with another person by carefully observing, and then imitating, his or her breath pattern. Attuning one's own breathing to another person's respiratory rhythm, with full mental focus, is said to allow the magician ingress to the unsuspecting consciousness of another, permitting willed control of that individual's mind. Through these means, death, healing, transmission of thought, or sexual excitement can theoretically be brought about from a distance. Of course, in the above-cited case of Gurdjieff and his student, we can't ignore the psychological factors establishing a pre-existing link between sorcerer and subject, an affinity which must surely ease the flow of such a transmission. Like Crowley, Gurdjieff was adamant in his opposition to any kind
of contraceptives, perhaps a reflection of his belief in the magical properties of semen, and its purported role in the creation of a "higher body" Be that as it may, the Master's many dalliances with his disciples led to the creation of many illegitimate bodies of the usual physical type – whatever the nature of Gurdjieff's sexual relations with his students, he left behind him a throng of Gurdjieffian bastards and bastardettes. Although he has long since been cast in a saintly light by his latter-day followers, an essential part of Gurdjieff's personal teaching was the way in which he deliberately inverted the usual behavior expected in a spiritual teacher. His carefully embellished repute as a lecher was only one of his tactics. He seems to have gone out of his way to have been exceedingly difficult, temperamental and untrustworthy, and many a would-be adherent of the Fourth Way abandoned it out of sheer exasperation with the teacher's unfathomable – and sometimes infuriating – methods.

I ask what people make of this? Do you believe these stories of Gurdjieff's behaviour? He as supposed to be a great spiritual master. How do you view his behaviour here, if true?

[Shinichi]

Demons of The Flesh is hardly a complete guide to sex magic, left hand or anything else. If you know how to dig through it there's some useful things, but don't take Nikolas and Zeena Schreck at face value.

As for the quote, exactly what about it bothers you? I can tell you from experience that the thing about inducing an orgasm from a distance via telepathic or hypnotic suggestion is possible, so that very well may be true. But as for Gurdjieff, wise as he was he was hardly more than mortal. Crowley had his drugs and women, Bardon smoked like a chimney, and Blavatsky got caught faking a seance. Gardner was a nudist and Dion Fortune was more than a little paranoid.

All initiates and adepts are still mortal human people, prone to human habits and human opinions. Being a "spiritual master" does not mean being perfect, nor does bad habits or silly opinions need to diminish the wisdom offered by such people.



~:Shin:~

[RoseRed]

It's a bastardization of Sacred Breath. Striking through the sexual center- isn't that difficult.

So, yeah, the claims could be true.

[Horny Goat]

Sinichi, if Gurdjieff was using love spells and telepathy to seduce his followers then he was hardly a very moral fellow was he? More of a black magician really. How does that tie in with his being so spiritually developed?

[Shinichi]

I'd never even heard of Gurdjieff before this thread, so I really can't speak much about him specifically. From what little I looked up, his life seems almost as interesting as Crowley's. And in that light, I'm reminded of the fact that many of the things people think they know about Crowley comes from propaganda spread around by his enemies, and Crowley's own love for flare and freaking people out, and isn't even close to true. It's possible that he had the same love for flare that Crowley had, but I can't really say that Gurdjieff was a "spiritual master" or that he wasn't. Some of his work seems to be rather interesting though, and it's okay to learn from someone without following them.

"It is the mark of an educated mind to entertain an idea without believing in it." -- Aristotle.

As for morality, most morals that are founded on religious standards and social stereotypes are unethical anyway.



~:Shin:~

[Horny Goat]

Thank you all for your replies.

Er, by the way. Has anyone here induced an orgasm in another by telepathy ( not that I need any help in that department, ahem)?

[Shinichi]

Thank you all for your replies.

Er, by the way. Has anyone here induced an orgasm in another by telepathy ( not that I need any help in that department, ahem)?

Yes. And with hypnosis, and with energy manipulation, and simply on command.



~:Shin:~

[manofsands]

Er, by the way. Has anyone here induced an orgasm in another by telepathy?

No,... but once with a chicken.


...


You know the difference between kinky and perverted?

Kinky you use a feather...

Perverted you use the whole chicken!

[yay]

[Rin]

Well for starters, they're spiritually impractical, especially for men. Excessive sexual activity (especially masturbation) drains the vital forces which the body relies on, and which drive spiritual development to various degrees. Even if you aren't practicing a system which works directly through the transmutation of the generative force, constantly wasting it will slow down your progress considerably, spiritually and magically speaking. This is a large part of why spiritual masters and adepts age slower and maintain their mental and physical vitality into their old age.

On a moral level, it's tricky, but personally I've found the further I delve into spiritually, the more distasteful I find the idea of sex outside of a loving and committed relationship, or at the least with someone with whom I don't have a strong emotional bond. Really, promiscuity isn't far from a form of mutual masturbation, it's draining, it's unsatisfying and it's a shadow of sex in the context of mutual love, or at least respect and affection.

When it comes to porn, think about the nature of the industry and the nature of the material involved. Does it feel spiritual to you? Does it feel like something someone trying to develop and perfect themselves should be connected to on a mental and astral level?

As for the more... extreme... activities, I honestly have no idea how they would fit into the equation.

[RoseRed]

If you're asking about astral sex the answer is yes, it's possible.

[Horny Goat]

Thank you all for your responses.