What would you consider to be Lesser Black Magick?

[TSLexi]

Hi guys,

I'd just like your opinion on what you would consider to be Lesser Black Magick.

IMHO, Lesser Black Magick is merely a fancy term for strategic psychological manipulation and social engineering. For example, dressing up for a job interview, flattery, wearing eyeglasses with plano lenses because they make you seem more intelligent, being honest about a transgression against said someone (as opposed to lying or not admitting it) in order to gain their respect. Telling someone that your company's product would not serve their needs establishes you as an honest respectable salesman that most people would likely prefer to deal with, as you appear to be focused on the customer, thus hopefully garnering new clients via word of mouth.

Or, for a more fiendish example, creating an artificial shortage of a much needed product that only you and your associates can produce, rendering people dependent on you and increasing your wealth, power, and influence among them. For a concrete example that later backfired, see Enron and the Californian energy crisis.

For an example from my personal life, exploiting my TS status to manipulate people via their sexual fetishes.

I'm still trying to understand what Medial Black Magick is; I know Greater Black Magick is manipulating our own subjective universe to create a magickal link with the objective universe in an attempt to change it in conformity with our Will with rituals.

BTW, does anyone find it really annoying that whenever you Google "Black Magick Rituals" you end up getting a whole bunch of Yugioh links; sure, it's one of my favorite animes (call me childish, I don't care), but it is irritating.

[Shinichi]

Your concept of "Greater Black Magic" is along the lines of what I would probably consider "Lesser Black Magic."

Both terms seem silly to me, though. Metaphysics is metaphysics, as Chemistry is Chemistry. I've never been able to see the black and white in it, no matter how deeply I've looked. A Chemist can create a poison or they can create the cure, but the Chemistry itself doesn't change no matter how you use it.



~:Shin:~

[TSLexi]

Your concept of "Greater Black Magic" is along the lines of what I would probably consider "Lesser Black Magic."

Both terms seem silly to me, though. Metaphysics is metaphysics, as Chemistry is Chemistry. I've never been able to see the black and white in it, no matter how deeply I've looked. A Chemist can create a poison or they can create the cure, but the Chemistry itself doesn't change no matter how you use it.



~:Shin:~

So, what would you consider to be Greater Black Magick?

[RoseRed]

Magic that maims, destroys or kills.

Seriously, tho - magic(k) is magic(k). How it is wielded and for what purpose is what will decide the 'color' of it. If you use it to harm then it's dark. If you use it to help then it's light.

Breaking magic down into a color system is simply a way of categorizing it based upon a moral structure.

Your first set of examples is simply manipulation - that has nothing to do with magic.

(And as far as playing piano - wearing glasses, when they're not actually needed, to achieve a 'look' will end in a splitting headache.)

[Shinichi]

So, what would you consider to be Greater Black Magick?

I've given this some thought before replying, trying to find an answer. And the most honest answer is: I don't believe in such a thing. Now, I've seen some rather nasty users of magic. Thanks to the brashness of my religious mother, I've even had to stand on the receiving end of such people's ill will more than once as I grew up. But having come this far, I can't see magic as anything but magic. It's an art in the sense that Karate or Kung Fu is a Martial Art. There is a set of skills and a body of wisdom that can be used for personal evolution and self-betterment, and those skills may also be used to kill a lot of people in the wrong hands. But then, what are the wrong hands? A man who walks into a theater and shoots everyone is a villain, but the soldier who kills a far greater number of Al Qaeda or ISIS "enemies" is instead a hero.

RoseRed is right. Applying colors to occult practice is just a way of applying morality, and in that sense, morality that is based on social standards or religious stereotypes is often unethical and full of logical flaws.

In your other thread you said you come from a religious youth. As someone who has also grown up in a particularly strict sect, and who went through the Satanist phase (the 11th Rule of The Earth is still one of my favorite principles of any philosophy), let me offer a humble suggestion based on what I myself and many others as well have had to experience: sit down and think about what magic is, think about what you think magic is, and consider why you think magic is what it is. Think about whether or not your religious programming is shading your perspective, and how. Think about whether or not your other philosophies and ideas about life influence your ideas, and how. Practice some good old fashioned Introspection.

I've actively practiced magic for seven years now, and I've experienced it my entire life. I've healed, cursed, and many other things besides, and it was the same magic that did it all. The magic was never any more black or white than I was, no matter how greater or lesser it was. And even besides all of that, I also manipulate people all the time -- often to their benefit, many times to the benefit of everyone else around them. Being able to calm someone down when they are on the edge of something disastrous is a useful, though indeed a very mundane, skill to practice. It's called persuasion, and it's often the result of good people skills. [wink]

Regardless, just step back and think for a moment. What's the point of black or white magic, in the first place?



~:Shin:~

[TSLexi]

I would consider magick to be bringing into existence something that did not exist before, whether that something is a novel biologic or IC, a work of art, or a feeling/emotion. Magick is truly understanding yourself, others, and the world around you. Magick is the power of creation, the creative essence within all of us.

Btw, I said plano lenses...plano lenses are lenses that have zero power, so they're optically-equivalent to a flat plane of glass.

I'd say black magick is the magickian using magick to effect a change in the Universe in accordance to their Will. While the white magickian seeks to be in harmony with the Universe, the black magickian seeks to control their own worldline.

[RoseRed]

Btw, I said plano lenses...plano lenses are lenses that have zero power, so they're optically-equivalent to a flat plane of glass

oops [blush]

Yeah, that's just poser bullshit.

I'd say black magick is the magickian using magick to effect a change in the Universe in accordance to their Will.

While the white magickian seeks to be in harmony with the Universe, the black magickian seeks to control their own worldline.

If only things were so cut and dry. The thing is, we're talking about people, and they are complicated and fascinating creatures.

I have yet to meet a 'white magician.' Does such a thing even exist?

[Ramscha]

Why macking things more complicated with higher and less, black and white?
I agree with Shinichi, what is the point of this?

Ramscha

[Shinichi]

I'd say black magick is the magickian using magick to effect a change in the Universe in accordance to their Will. While the white magickian seeks to be in harmony with the Universe, the black magickian seeks to control their own worldline.

And what about all of the great magicians throughout history who have been both and done both? From ancient Greece and the likes of Pythagoras, straight on up to the likes of Paracelcus, Agrippa, and Levi. Wescot and Mathers, Crowley and even Gardner.

Each of these and countless others are magicians who have sought to understand the world around them, be in harmony with it, and at the same time not be ruled by it in any way. The very definition of "Will," with a capital "W," is something that encourages both.

I have yet to meet a 'white magician.' Does such a thing even exist?

I might be called one by that definition, if you only take a glance and don't look much deeper. Really, look! Even my avatar is white! [cool]



~:Shin:~

[Procel]

The history channel had a series about firearms that opened with a preamble that may as well have been about magic. Basically; these things are these things, and they serve hero and villain alike. The tool being no better or worse than it's master. I suspect that the part of the preamble that said something to the effect of 'you can't look at history without looking at guns because the two are inexorably linked' is likewise true about magick, but the history books are not so clear on that point.

[TSLexi]

I'd say black magick is the magickian using magick to effect a change in the Universe in accordance to their Will. While the white magickian seeks to be in harmony with the Universe, the black magickian seeks to control their own worldline.

And what about all of the great magicians throughout history who have been both and done both? From ancient Greece and the likes of Pythagoras, straight on up to the likes of Paracelcus, Agrippa, and Levi. Wescot and Mathers, Crowley and even Gardner.

Each of these and countless others are magicians who have sought to understand the world around them, be in harmony with it, and at the same time not be ruled by it in any way. The very definition of "Will," with a capital "W," is something that encourages both.

I have yet to meet a 'white magician.' Does such a thing even exist?

I might be called one by that definition, if you only take a glance and don't look much deeper. Really, look! Even my avatar is white! [cool]


Would you care to elaborate on "be in harmony with it [the world], and at the same time not be ruled by it in any way"?
~:Shin:~

[Shinichi]

Would you care to elaborate on "be in harmony with it [the world], and at the same time not be ruled by it in any way"?

Ah, a big question in a little sentence. Different traditions will give you many different answers, so I'll try to convey the core ideas.

There's two separate ideas there. One is to be in harmony with the world, and the other is that most people are ruled by the forces of the world. To achieve the former is to me the transcendence of the latter, but I digress.

Let's start with the idea that most people are ruled by external forces. Classically, this is a reference to such things as karma and the influence of the stars. In short, everyone is trapped in the web of fate and toss about in the currents of the world like a flailing butterfly caught in a hurricane. In a more mundane sense, this can also be something as simple as the fact that you might lose your job for the simple reason that your company isn't doing well and has to let people go. Or maybe someone says something that offends you, and with reflex beyond your control, you automatically lose your temper. Like this, it can be said that most people are ruled by external forces, never really in full control of themselves.

The implications this has for such things as free will is quite deep, philosophically and mystically speaking. I really like Plato's Allegory of The Cave, where people are so obsessed with the shadows on the wall that they do not even want to go and pursue the real thing. Or as some person once said, "the perfect slave is the one who believes that he is free." This is why Crowley capitalizes Will. The True Will is a very specific part of the Self, and "do what thou Wilt" does not mean "do whatever you want."

Then there is the idea of being in harmony with nature. That is, coming into harmony with the external forces that rule the uninitiated, thus conquering them and no longer being ruled by them. This is achieved through magical training and initiation, and it is the process of Microcosm and Macrocosm coming into harmony with each other (as well as Microcosm achieving a state of internal harmony itself, which actually comes first) -- instead of flailing through the rapids trying to stay alive, you become the person riding them expertly in your boat; instead of being the person knocked down by the mighty waves of the sea, you become the graceful surfer and noble sailor; instead of being ruled by fear, or anger, or any other thing, you become the ruler.

And thus is the classical ideal of The Magus. Be it the archetypes of the Three Wise Men who visited Jesus (who were Magicians of a school in the middle east, by the way), or Woten/Odin, or Merlin, or Galdalf and Dumbledore. Or even such real examples as Paracelcus, Agrippa, and Levi. It is the person who is no longer ruled by the currents of the world, who has come into harmony with the whole of nature and all the heavens; it is that person who carries the title of Adept.

At least, in the classical sort of things that I practice. Ask a dozen occultists, and you'll get a dozen answers. [wink]



~:Shin:~