Is This Supposed to Happen

[silverfox615]

hey guys so i tried summoning. im not sure whether it was really evocation or invocation. i was using one of the goetia lesser keys of Solomon but i didnt really follow the its guidelines after i found the sigil i wanted i said my own bit and did my absolute best to be humble and polite. i was asking question and asked it wrong but i got my answer to the wrong question. im curious to know is it normal for things to happen in the physical world like candles glowing brighter or things moving slightly? thanks for you're time guys.

[DozingGreen]

This is actually completely normal. I have never worked with Goetia entities or demons at all but I have been present during invocations of God's before and I've almost always experienced things like this. The entity that you are trying to evoke is letting you know that it is there. Also you may hear things. When I invoked Loki with a friend of mine we both heard a faint whistling. I also had a frightening experience when I was younger,trying to summon the spirit of a dead person who previously inhabited the house and the candles blew out as if a sharp wind has swept through the room yet there was no fan on and the doors and windows were shut. Hope I helped.

[RoseRed]

hey guys so i tried summoning. im not sure whether it was really evocation or invocation. i was using one of the goetia lesser keys of Solomon but i didnt really follow the its guidelines after i found the sigil i wanted i said my own bit and did my absolute best to be humble and polite. i was asking question and asked it wrong but i got my answer to the wrong question. im curious to know is it normal for things to happen in the physical world like candles glowing brighter or things moving slightly? thanks for you're time guys.

It seems that I'm in 'Mama-Witch' mode today. Please do not take this post as condescending. It's meant to be educational. What's written above is something that I've seen time and again. It's also quite dangerous to play with this type of Ceremony when you don't really know what you're doing. I'll take this one step at a time and do my best to explain why I find this so frightening.

And the main reason I do is because THESE THINGS ARE REAL! Especially for those that have an inherent Talent for them.

hey guys so i tried summoning.

This actually comes across as 'dabbling' which can be VERY dangerous.

im not sure whether it was really evocation or invocation.

Invocation is when you call something into and inside of yourself - to mingle with your soul and spirit within your physical meat suit.

Evocation is when you call something to hang out next to you. It could be in a triangle (to contain it as in CM), inside a circle or even sitting next to you on the couch.

The difference is one is next to you and the other is inside of you. A magician or any other magical practitioner needs to have the education, skill sets, Talent and level of power necessary to command such things (or at least be in control of the situation)

i was using one of the goetia lesser keys of Solomon but i didnt really follow the its guidelines after i found the sigil i wanted i said my own bit and did my absolute best to be humble and polite

Not following the instruction manuel can have catastrophic consequences. It takes an experienced magician to modify the Rituals and have them remain as powerful as they are. It't not something to play with.

I have no idea what 'your bit' was that you said. I don't think I want to know.

Why were you being humble and polite? Can you give an example?

That's not usually an approach that works out well for the practitioner.

i was asking question and asked it wrong but i got my answer to the wrong question.

Well, that sux. Have you thought that perhaps you did ask the question that was needed instead of the question that was wanted?

im curious to know is it normal for things to happen in the physical world like candles glowing brighter or things moving slightly? thanks for you're time guys

Yup, it sure is.

What kind of things were moving slightly?

[silverfox615]

ok so heres what i did i used the sigil of Gremory to call upon him/her. I really didn't expect anything to happen and needless to say when the flames on the candle i was using shot up to 3-4 inches as in comparison to the to maybe half inch on the highest one i was a little startled. i also felt as if my entire body had just touched an electrical outlet. at one point i asked if Gremory had chosen to grace me with her presence and my notebook slid into the center of the sigil i had drawn in a circle with about a 5 foot diameter. i copied the sigil from the goetia into my note book so that i didnt have to have my laptop on to copy the sigil it just didnt seem right. i also wrote my personalized evocation into the notebook under the sigil. the evocations in the goetia seemed very rude and commanding to me i have no interest in controlling these entities so when i used my evocation i said things like "i humbly request the to grace me with your presence" i was very complimentary saying things like "beautiful demon of night". i didn't want her to feel commanded i was looking to be respectfully and humbly invitational after asking my question she kinda laughed at the fact i said i was definitely the wrong question but i was so startled by the notebooks movement and physical feeling i had that i messed up. i asked if she would allow me to call upon her again and she said "you know you will" after apologizing for my blatant fear i thanked her for coming and asked if there was anything else? i heard a laugh and the candles went out on there own no smoke nothing and when that happened i felt weak but the shock feeling subsided. i was fearful because i really didnt expect anything and i didnt know what to expect next but nothing out of the ordinary has occurred since then i realize i shouldnt have gone off book but idk i really didnt want to be rude, i wasnt hurt at all and i never really felt threatened just completely taken by surprise. i do appreciate your responses by the way they have definitely eased my mind a little more. and honestly although idk if i really intend to call upon any other entities but i feel like with Gremory ill be safe. if she wanted to hurt me she definitely could of i felt that almost immediately when the notebook moved. as always thank you for your time. -fox

[RoseRed]

You're welcome.

Then you're following the wrong instruction book if that's the type of relationship you want with demons. That's written to command them - not suck up to them with flowery compliments.

Please don't fall into the trap of feeling 'safe' when you do this type of work.

[findingtruth]

You're welcome.

Then you're following the wrong instruction book if that's the type of relationship you want with demons. That's written to command them - not suck up to them with flowery compliments.

Please don't fall into the trap of feeling 'safe' when you do this type of work.

Is there a way to be both respectful and commanding at the same time? I also don't wish to disrespect or "command" exactly any entities that I work with, but rather have more of a respectful, business relationship. Of course, I am *extremely* new and don't intend on trying any of this until I am much more advanced, it's just a curious question for the future.

[EternalReturn]

This is interesting question. Can you be assertive to these beings? I figure that you have to, especially demons, from what I've read.

[Shinichi]

Words like "commanding" and "control" do not necessarily mean being arrogant and supremacist, though a number of ceremonial magicians certainly are the latter. It just means following the old adage, "do not call forth anything that you cannot send back." If that requires a complex ritual involving a protective circle around you, invocation of god names, and various other things that keep the spirit from harming you, then that's that. It's just technique, and that is usually how Goetic Evocation works anyway.

For those far more experienced, it can mean something as simple as having developed a good relationship (ie, you have earned their honor and respect, and they see you as an actual magician worthy of their time and not as a dabbling child worthy of a good prank or punishment) with the spirits you've been working with, so that when you call them forth they will just pop in, will treat you well and will leave when they are told to leave. No complex ritual or battle of will necessary.

And sometimes, it means all out magical warfare against a spirit that does not like you and doesn't want to listen to you. Those situations are particularly unpleasant.

It also depends on the type of spirits you are working with. The Goetia is very different from evoking Elementary Spirits, which is very different from sitting out in the park and talking to the Land Wights.



~:Shin:~

[Cybernetic_Jazz]

This is a fascinating topic - mainly that I've really wondered what the goetic spirits are in relationship to us in the scheme of things, not just in terms of mechanics but in roles of evolution, where our evolutions criss-cross, and whether there's mutual win/win territory. This seems like it should be an area incredibly ripe for self-transformation of the magician, just that while people talk often about the amount of etheric power sub-lunar entities can shovel around (likely because of their vibrational proximity and focus) it seems like it's a very straight-jacketed relationship in its usefulness/utility. I've never really understood that part.

[silverfox615]

you know one thing i figured id point out is that demons aren't necessarily evil or dangerous. that's an idea put forth by the Abrahamic religions in fact most of their "demons" are actually god worshiped by religions that came before theirs. the "demon" i summoned was Gremory but more extensive research seems to support the idea that she was once the goddess Venus of Rome and At'e of Greece. And she probably had other names a purposes before that and i suppose the only way to find out is to ask her next time i summon her. honestly i was extremely concerned about what happened but now that Ive completely come to terms with it i dont think i was ever in any danger or would be with her. Others im not so sure some of the other goetic demons from what ive found were extremely wrathful gods who were particularly fond of blood, others were found of playing jokes on mortals, As far as i can tell Venus needed to be offended before she would seek to cause someone harm. SO Im gonna stick to my guns on this one and go out of my way to be polite and as unoffensive and flattering as possible. -fox

[RoseRed]

Let me know how that works out for you.

And no, I'm not being obnoxious or rude. There are some people (few and far between) that interact the way you're talking about. I'd really like to hear how this approach works for you.

[Tigereye]

No experience, but on an intuitive level I want to point out that these beings are not quite like us and yet like us in the worst of ways. Showing fear or being too yielding can have the same negative consequences as it can with a human being, only with something far more powerful than your garden variety leech, manipulator, narcissist, or power-hungry asshole. To think we understand their motivations, thoughts, or feelings is a mistake; we barely understand our own.

If I can tell when someone is sucking up to me and wrinkle my nose in disgust, then they surely can and they may have varied reactions to it. Kind words can be appreciated as genuine, or they can be seen as a superficial and excessive icing on something far less pleasant or something without much meaning meant to distract. Perhaps they just respect the (cultivated, not assumed) power of people who call them in due time and for due purpose. To you, it may feel like committing a wrong and stepping out of your place to be issuing commands to something much larger and older than you, because in some cultures it's emphasized to respect your superiors and elders. But they're not you, they're not me, and they're not anyone else here.

[manonthepath]

Sounds like you're right where you need to be bro. These things happen all the time to us all. Take it in your stride and try to grow. shit happens.

[Cybernetic_Jazz]

And no, I'm not being obnoxious or rude. There are some people (few and far between) that interact the way you're talking about. I'd really like to hear how this approach works for you.

A few authors I can think of in select terms - Fr. Ashen Chassan with his invocation of the seven planetary archangels and WIlliam Mistele in his elemental anthropology and documentary work with the heads of the four kingdoms (at least with his Undines book it was very much like him hanging out with and learning from some type of native tribe).

I do remember reading Iamblichus's Theurgy of the Egyptians (really it was written though somewhat as answers by a preist to Porphyry, I'm guessing Plotinus's student) and they were big on the threats as a sort of spiritual marshaling activity. Being that I haven't gotten into invoking/evoking all that much I don't know what necessitates that, whether it's appropriate under nearly all circumstances, most, or just some, and I think I understand the OP's tendency as this - in our culture we're used to dealing with human level intelligence in a certain way, animal level intelligence in a certain way, and we're also used to being profoundly insulted if someone points or whistles when communicating with us as if we were animals. Our default impulse in most cases would be that if something's highly intelligent it would be playing with fire to step on its toes and making an ally if one deeply and sincerely is trying to reach out to it as a fellow sentience and in friendship. That might be a little naive with truly foreign intelligences but I could also figure that a lot of it has to do with Christian upbringing in our culture as well. Not many people would consider threatening or commanding YHVH, Yeshua, Mother Mary, or the four archangels - rather its sensed that it's either utmost reverence or the possibility of being an ash pile or getting the empirical Ananias and Sapphira experience; I could see that 'blick' for lack of a better term extending to invoking/evoking for beginners as it's just a force of habit in considering the supermundane.

Maybe someone here with a lot of invoking/evoking experience should write or link a thread on context, situational awareness, and when and why to command? Might be a good one for the beginners.