E.A. Koetting allegedly arrested on gun and drug charges

[magari]

Exactly


However, off-topic, I do think magick needs an "upgrade". Those performing real rituals with real guns actually have a lot more power than an anonymous group in robes with swords.

What I'm really wondering about - say I get my way with my life in that I get to do it all - go Summum Bonum with AMORC (beyond 12th temple), complete the BOTA course, join a very serious theurgic and goetic group when those are accomplished (MOAA sounds better all the time), perhaps even plum the mysteries of Martinism and the GD in equal depth and when I'm not doing that, work or martial arts I'm getting to know my alchemy deep - I feel like I'd almost need to be at that end of the rainbow to really know what it yields.

As far as I can tell the more someone becomes adept the more they sort of wash out of local concerns, have far less concern over changing the world, and I almost think that a good amount of that has to do with them realizing that everyone's HGA has the ride under control no matter how scary some of the hills look and at sometimes even as an entire race we find ourselves at the top of the 250 ft power tower waiting for the hydraulics to yank us down at several G's above the usual for a plummet and bounce.

It seems like the only way that magic, mysticism, and really both being the path of evolution and enlightenment, become less passive is if they become more pervasive. One of the saddest things to me is the full current alienation of the esoteric from the exoteric structure and perhaps one of the best rectifications would be layers created into organized religion where lets say the three major Abrahamics focus on spiritually honing, workshopping, and for those who are ready having something that looks as deep and like as much of a work out as BOTA, Martinism, Thelema, etc. - just that it would be, say, the Sufi direction of Islam, the Hermetic direction of Christianity, the Kabbalistic direction of Judaism, etc..

The lack of certified mysteries within the organized religion and the current dying gasps of Freemasonry give few avenues and all I can think of is that present orders will grow in size to try and offer the same things. Whether the pandora's box that Apple and Google opened on our culture will still be a hurdle people can climb over is another question as well and I suppose we'd have to wait and see on that one.

I like your perspective on it all. It really does seem to be a "wait and see" game and mostly it seems we have had nothing but progress overall.

We have eyeballs in space now
well... not even eyeballs, even more impressive methods of glimpsing whats happening in the world around us.
Everything seems to be growing. You can look at it as additions of complexity, but when you expand the scope of simpler explanations they fit too.

Time itself seems to be the ultimate catalyst. However, I can't speak on time. Don't really grasp that one yet, but I have clues.

[RoseRed]

However when I compare firing a gun to swinging a sword, the sword seems a lot messier in my opinion. However, I'm trained and so are the majority of my closest friends. In my opinion magickal circles are neat tools for measuring blood splatter just a coincidence perhaps.

It's not about the kill or the cleanliness of it. The sword and staff are both used for directing power. Like a giant magic wand but different.

A rifle is more accurate than a snub nose .38 because of the length of the barrel. Comparing a handgun would be more accurate if you were talking about a dagger.

I see where you're coming from but you don't know or understand the proper usage of these tools in a Ritual setting or you wouldn't have gone on about swords being so much messier.

[Cybernetic_Jazz]

Also sorry to ignore your more direct suggestion, I might have missed it the first time.

Someone could perhaps make a Gnostic/Hermetic range where pin-shooting competitions are offerings to Djin, where praise of elemental Fire, Air, and Earth are given with deep meditation on the elemental significance of the ignition of the primers and subsequent explosion of the powder and propulsion of the bullet, afterword of course with a healthy praise of Water and it's role in fine microbrews and top shelf whiskey's at the local dive (providing your Gnostic range isn't in New Jersey in which case you'd all have to go home, unload all your stuff, and then go back out).

I do wonder what one could load their rounds with to make them more spiritual, what kinds of prayers might be said over sacrificial ammo for several weeks prior to joining it to the clip, whether semi-auto would be considered hasty and thus irreverent, etc..

Don't forget Zen sniping also - if it works for archery I can't imagine it being that much different for picking off a can at 500 yards. Blessed clays could be the icing on that cake.

[magari]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in ceremonial magick the sword is "usually" representing the element of Air.

In that regard I don't see how the rifle can't replace the sword. A pistol could definitely be considered a dagger.

Air in my opinion is the cold-cutting, logical, analytic and impartial element.

War is incredibly impartial, its a zero-sum game with an incredibly small spectrum of potentials. Either you live or die and its often said that those who live by the sword, die by the sword. Swinging the sword is an act in making a decision over life and death, its a tool, one of the first, that could bring this decision to a conclusion in an instant. These decisions are made, usually, in times of war when there is little room for the voice of the feminine or emotion. Logic rules here and if one man's death saves multiple other lives, the sword is swung. This element is so present in my opinion, that the utilitarian nature of even modern armies is good evidence.

Using a rifle or a pistol as a wand is much more intense than a sword in my opinion. Imagine taking part in a ceremony where you end up staring down the barrel.

The function of the "gun" used in replace of the sword may be scrutinized. I personally might opt for a "military" style carbine over a hunting rifle or shotgun, but thats because it holds more power in my mind.

As far as an individuals ability to lay hands on a sword vs a rifle is a different matter altogether. I may go as far as to say the reason its incredibly difficult for some people to acquire a proper weapon is because honestly they probably don't deserve one.

Whereas certain individuals have one placed in their hands at a very young age. Just like a sword would have been during the time when it was used. Swords were passed down from father to son.

But seriously, correct me if I'm way off. Its been a very long time since I've dabbled in ceremony.

I can imagine how replacing a sword with a gun in certain popular rituals and ceremonies would bring about some odd reactions. In my opinion the rituals surrounding the sword are almost completely extinct in modern armies who have adapted to everything surrounding what it means to kill your enemy with a rifle.

In order to become an expert with a sword, you sparred often. Men were accredited in the eyes of other men based on their ability with the sword. This was incredibly important because one man could potentially be effective against two or more men with proper training. The rituals surrounding the sword in this time are incredibly different to the rituals surrounding the gun and for good reason.

Its no longer about a particular skill, its become a bit more complicated than that as an expert marksman is no match against a soldier who has been trained in multiple "arts" of war, be it camouflage, movement, communication, ect. Unit cohesion seems to be a bigger factor now. The competition and credibility amongst men in terms of skill have fallen way to overall physical endurance. The rituals have changed.

Maybe what I'm saying is that. Keep your swords I suppose. However, I have experienced far more air energy coming out the tip of my barrel than I ever did my sword.

In my opinion, once you've stepped over that line back there. You don't go back. I realize this is not as common experience as it was during the time of the sword and my experiences are unique today.

According to the new york times less than 0.5% of the US population serves in the armed forces. Less than 1% of these armed forces see combat in Iraq or Afghanistan currently. This is the largest military currently on earth. So that could explain why most people don't get the same "feeling" from a rifle as they would a sword, but the reality is humanity has tossed it aside as it no longer serves a purpose really.


Now I'm rambling way off-topic. I'll stop here lol [rofl]

[Shinichi]

However when I compare firing a gun to swinging a sword, the sword seems a lot messier in my opinion. However, I'm trained and so are the majority of my closest friends.

I was once witness to a ritual operation where someone picked up a knife that had never been used for magic before, magically charged it on the spot, and with an incantation and a ritualized motion of the arm they sliced through the metaphysical problems that their target was having -- effectively performing a sort of simultaneous exorcism and healing where the targeted individual's life greatly improved afterwards. The knife never touched the target. The target wasn't even in the room, and as far as I know was never even aware of the operation.

This is not a matter of physical training. Magical weapons are not physical weapons, they are physical tools used to focus and channel magical forces. A gun most certain can be used as a magical weapon, as can almost anything else, but do not confuse magical utility for physical utility.

In my opinion magickal circles are neat tools for measuring blood splatter just a coincidence perhaps.

The circle, when properly constructed and activated, is a microcosm. A closed circuit. Unwanted energies or magical forces (like a summoned demon from the Goetia) cannot cross through the metaphysical wall that the circle creates, allowing it to serve as an effective shield for the magician when doing certain operations.

Would you rather slay the animal with your sword, or shoot it?

But it's not a matter of hunting, and I hope it's not a matter of animal sacrifice. Again, do not confuse magical utility for physical utility. They are not the same.

Therefore I suppose that if you are looking to bring out an individual's strength under pressure a sword is a better option. If you're seeking stability and precision under pressure, go with the gun.

These sort of things could be accounted for, but that's not the primary sort of thing I look for in magical tools. A blade does not simply bring out strength under pressure, it is an extension of my Will. Technically speaking, the Sword serves the same purpose as the Wand or Staff, but its energy is "sharper" and thus it is often used only when a spirit or metaphysical circumstance has to be handled by force. Personally, I much prefer the Staff or even my Ring in the majority of the work that I do.

If you're looking to harness what the sword represents as mankind's "tool" for change, then today a gun would serve better in my opinion. Its a lot easier to access that power through the gun today due to the current state of mankind's consciousness.

What mankind as a whole thinks isn't really a major concern for me and the work that I do.

The weapons themselves have their own metaphysical qualities, or Occult Virtues as Agrippa would call them, which are independent of human thought and impression (or at least, those qualities remain regardless of what humans think of them). If you're only concerned about using magical weapons as tools for change (which I'm not sure I understand), sure, either one will work. But there are deeper principles involved, and other circumstances where the magical qualities of a specific weapon cannot be replaced or "upgraded" very easily. Like when I Cut a Rune, I'm not just carving it into wood, or even drawing it on a piece of paper. I'm cutting the stave into the very fabric of the universe, the Web of Wyrd itself, where that energy will sink in and spread out as intended. You can't do that with a gun, or a wand, or anything else really.

Likewise, if you want to blow away a ghost, a shotgun full of rock salt might work better than a sword - it certainly works on Supernatural. [razz]

These are my opinions. If you see flaws, please let me know, this is something I love exploring. In my experience however, these details are more important to the individual magician who's reality is unique.

I'm not sure I would call them flaws, because your path is not mine. You're very right that magical tools and what they mean is extremely personal, because The Language of Symbolism is extremely personal and unique to every individual. But besides individual and subjective perceptions, there also tends to exist somewhat more objective things that are best not ignored.



~:Shin:~

[magari]

I was once witness to a ritual operation where someone picked up a knife that had never been used for magic before, magically charged it on the spot, and with an incantation and a ritualized motion of the arm they sliced through the metaphysical problems that their target was having -- effectively performing a sort of simultaneous exorcism and healing where the targeted individual's life greatly improved afterwards. The knife never touched the target. The target wasn't even in the room, and as far as I know was never even aware of the operation.

This is not a matter of physical training. Magical weapons are not physical weapons, they are physical tools used to focus and channel magical forces. A gun most certain can be used as a magical weapon, as can almost anything else, but do not confuse magical utility for physical utility.

This I understand, I suppose I should say I'm referring to the symbology behind the sword.

As a magickal weapon has been defined for me though, it could take the shape of anything. A sword obviously slices through things so that makes sense, but I think we both agree that a magician with enough skill rarely needs tools. So essentially the "blessed knife" could be replaced by an "illuminated hand"? Perhaps?

As for cutting runes that is indeed something that can't be replaced by a gun. However, I think we are talking about personal preference here and the "art" behind one's practice. I've made runes with markers and gotten really good results. There is also something to be said about the time and energy poured into the project and the results you get.

What mankind as a whole thinks isn't really a major concern for me and the work that I do.

I'm asking this as objectively as possible in my opinion.....
How do you honor the gift of being human?

They way I see you and your work right now is a part of the sum total of humanity and its growth.

Aren't we all just one of many seeking the same thing?
The paths are all unique, but isn't the goal the same?

The english language is beginning to breakdown here in my opinion. I ask that you look for the patterns in what I'm saying with what you know. Scrutiny may shift our focus.

[RoseRed]

It's been a very long day. I can see that you put a lot of thought into your reply.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in ceremonial magick the sword is "usually" representing the element of Air.
Off the top of my head - I don't remember. I'm not a Ceremonial Magician. I'm a Witch.

In that regard I don't see how the rifle can't replace the sword. A pistol could definitely be considered a dagger.
I was talking about the difference in length. You can aim further and more accurately with a rifle than with a snub-nose. When directing Power through a dagger or through a sword - the targets are in different places.

Air in my opinion is the cold-cutting, logical, analytic and impartial element.

War is incredibly impartial, its a zero-sum game with an incredibly small spectrum of potentials. Either you live or die and its often said that those who live by the sword, die by the sword. Swinging the sword is an act in making a decision over life and death, its a tool, one of the first, that could bring this decision to a conclusion in an instant. These decisions are made, usually, in times of war when there is little room for the voice of the feminine or emotion. Logic rules here and if one man's death saves multiple other lives, the sword is swung. This element is so present in my opinion, that the utilitarian nature of even modern armies is good evidence.
Try not to confuse Ceremonial Magick with warfare. They are different animals.

Using a rifle or a pistol as a wand is much more intense than a sword in my opinion. Imagine taking part in a ceremony where you end up staring down the barrel.
I already have. Not fun.

And you're right - if you're going to shoot someone. But what we're talking about here are magical operations.

The function of the "gun" used in replace of the sword may be scrutinized. I personally might opt for a "military" style carbine over a hunting rifle or shotgun, but thats because it holds more power in my mind.
Again - you're talking about a different type of Power that is to be wielded.

As far as an individuals ability to lay hands on a sword vs a rifle is a different matter altogether. I may go as far as to say the reason its incredibly difficult for some people to acquire a proper weapon is because honestly they probably don't deserve one.
and most of those people have an easier time finding it in illegal ways than jumping through the hoops of the different states.

Whereas certain individuals have one placed in their hands at a very young age. Just like a sword would have been during the time when it was used. Swords were passed down from father to son.

But seriously, correct me if I'm way off. Its been a very long time since I've dabbled in ceremony.

I can imagine how replacing a sword with a gun in certain popular rituals and ceremonies would bring about some odd reactions. In my opinion the rituals surrounding the sword are almost completely extinct in modern armies who have adapted to everything surrounding what it means to kill your enemy with a rifle.
Again - Ceremonial Magick and Warfare are different things. You're the only one bringing armies into this.

In order to become an expert with a sword, you sparred often. Men were accredited in the eyes of other men based on their ability with the sword. This was incredibly important because one man could potentially be effective against two or more men with proper training. The rituals surrounding the sword in this time are incredibly different to the rituals surrounding the gun and for good reason.

Its no longer about a particular skill, its become a bit more complicated than that as an expert marksman is no match against a soldier who has been trained in multiple "arts" of war, be it camouflage, movement, communication, ect. Unit cohesion seems to be a bigger factor now. The competition and credibility amongst men in terms of skill have fallen way to overall physical endurance. The rituals have changed.

Maybe what I'm saying is that. Keep your swords I suppose. However, I have experienced far more air energy coming out the tip of my barrel than I ever did my sword.
The energy that comes out of your gun is external. The energy that is harnessed and focused by sword is internal.

You should think on that.

In my opinion, once you've stepped over that line back there. You don't go back. I realize this is not as common experience as it was during the time of the sword and my experiences are unique today.
Yeah, no shit.

According to the new york times less than 0.5% of the US population serves in the armed forces. Less than 1% of these armed forces see combat in Iraq or Afghanistan currently. This is the largest military currently on earth. So that could explain why most people don't get the same "feeling" from a rifle as they would a sword, but the reality is humanity has tossed it aside as it no longer serves a purpose really.
Sweeping and generalized statements here. It doesn't serve a purpose to YOU. Those that know it's purpose and possess the skill to use it think differently. You have very firm opinions on things you know very little about.


Now I'm rambling way off-topic. I'll stop here lol [rofl]

[Shinichi]

This I understand, I suppose I should say I'm referring to the symbology behind the sword.

You are referring to the symbolism behind the sword, and I am suggesting that there is something more metaphysically objective to these things than subjective symbolism. [smile2]

As a magickal weapon has been defined for me though, it could take the shape of anything. A sword obviously slices through things so that makes sense, but I think we both agree that a magician with enough skill rarely needs tools. So essentially the "blessed knife" could be replaced by an "illuminated hand"? Perhaps?

Most definitely. As I said, I much prefer my staff or ring in ordinary workings where a tool is useful, and in daily little things I don't use tools at all. It's usually much easier for me to work a healing by controlling internal energy than by doing some complex ritual. Tools serve their purpose, but it's best not to use them as a crutch. However, there is a distinctive difference between "rarely needs tools" and "never needs tools." No matter how strong a practitioner I might one day become, there are some circumstances where my Sword Mudra just isn't a suitable replacement for a magically charged and enchanted knife or sword.

As for cutting runes that is indeed something that can't be replaced by a gun. However, I think we are talking about personal preference here and the "art" behind one's practice. I've made runes with markers and gotten really good results. There is also something to be said about the time and energy poured into the project and the results you get.

Cutting Runes doesn't really require a knife either. I also have a pen. But even so, as mentioned above, there are always circumstances.

I'm asking this as objectively as possible in my opinion.....
How do you honor the gift of being human?

By working daily to refine myself to be a more noble and more honorable creature.

I think you missed my point, though.

They way I see you and your work right now is a part of the sum total of humanity and its growth.

Aye. But the way I see the world, humanity is only one small part of the greater whole. So when I work magic, what humanity thinks about my magic doesn't mean anything. My operations work because I work them, and because I work in harmony with natural forces. Humanity as a whole, the whole "collective consciousness" idea that people these days are fond of isn't part of the equation at all.

It may interest you, though, that "the web" of things is part of my equation. Fate, or Wyrd, or whatever terminology you prefer. However, Wyrd is something much bigger than a "collective consciousness," and it's much bigger than the small group of humans who currently inhabit planet Earth.

Aren't we all just one of many seeking the same thing?
The paths are all unique, but isn't the goal the same?

Not necessarily. Hannibal Lecter has very different goals than I do.

With a bigger picture, universalism makes sense -- a collection of trees is indeed a forest, and all forests do indeed grow. But if you focus too much on the forest, you forget that every tree is a different one.

The english language is beginning to breakdown here in my opinion. I ask that you look for the patterns in what I'm saying with what you know. Scrutiny may shift our focus.

Language always has its weak moments. [smile2] I understand what you're trying to say, I'm just trying to add my perspective to it. On one level, it is just a matter of personal preference and the individual Art of magic. On another, I'm trying to point out that I experience a very distinct difference between symbolic analogy and the actual metaphysical qualities (occult virtues) of any given object.



~:Shin:~

[magari]

Help me separate ceremony/ritual from warfare.

Isn't life one giant ritual?

Isn't that what we are doing moment to moment?

Humanity hasn't seemed to be able to separate ritual from anything we do in my opinion. Waking up, going to school/work, growing, learning, ect?

As a whole humanity still practices ritual in every aspect of life I've run into.

Maybe you haven't seen war? In all that chaos, its the ritual that keeps us sane.

Leaders are taught these rituals and how to properly perform them in combat. Men learn to expect these rituals and the comforts that follow them. They almost depend on them when bullets are meeting flesh.

However, it can be something as simple as asking a man if he has been drinking water.

To me, there is no separation between how magick works and what the rest of the world is doing. Its obvious that magick *is* what we've been doing all along.
Humanity itself is a magickal operation. War is one of those products. However, so is putting a man on the moon and evolving as a species to the point we have expanded our awareness into the depths of the universe.

There seems to be no stopping it. Those who work with it the best seem to dictate the reality the rest of us consume. This could mean the greatest covens or orders are actually organizations like Apple or Google. Those who refuse it are forced into hiding and when compared to most of us, seem downright cancerous to all the progress we've made.

I'm not calling you guys cancerous. I'm just trying to get a perspective across. My question is why do so many of us experience these truths, but still cling to labels that prevent common thought from having an easy time understanding it.

The reality may be that as we continue to evolve science will be able to measure magick. This won't give us credibility with the rest of the world, but instead hand over the ownership of that knowledge to the scientific communities. Especially once they learn to control it. We already know how to control it. Lets stop playing in the muddy details.

These are starting to turn into almost channeled writings from something deep inside me I'm still trying to figure out.

[magari]

RoseRed and Shinichi;

I really appreciate your time and input. I am grateful and you should know that.

[Shinichi]

Magari, there is a difference between mundane habit and a metaphysical, ceremonial ritual.



~:Shin:~

[magari]

We're getting caught up in the details.
I'm trying to encourage you to look at the bigger picture.

Magari, there is a difference between mundane habit and a metaphysical, ceremonial ritual.



~:Shin:~

I agree and disagree. I ask you to look at the similarities and not the differences.

Brushing your teeth in the morning might not be as powerful as saying your prayers before bedtime. However, that doesn't mean the ritual of brushing your teeth every morning isn't a ritual that has zero metaphysical impacts.

Every moment is a zen moment.

[RoseRed]

Help me separate ceremony/ritual from warfare.
I understand the rituals that you speak of. The process of doing the same thing the same way until it becomes an unconscious act. We fall back on these things, these rituals (with a small r), on training, on practice, etc. Most people brush their teeth the same way every day, too.

A ceremony is a specific type of Ritual (big R).

Warfare? That's it's own animal.

Isn't life one giant ritual?
No, it's a continuous series of many.

Isn't that what we are doing moment to moment?
In this moment, I'm having a deep and sincere conversation with you. While, I participate in my morning coffee ritual.

Roll call is a ritualistic act in that it's the same sequence of steps repeated on a regular basis. Ceremonies are special. People usually get all dressed up and approach them with much deeper feelings than 'just getting started in the morning like I do every day.'

Humanity hasn't seemed to be able to separate ritual from anything we do in my opinion. Waking up, going to school/work, growing, learning, ect?
Personally, I don't really give a flying fuck about humanity. Most of them are sheep and perfectly content to allow others to direct them without ever having an original thought again. I used to. Humans are some of the most inhumane behaving creatures on this planet. I also don't mind other people's business. I don't care what they do as it doesn't affect me. I'm an awesome neighbor - I smile, I wave, I don't even their names.

Yeah, I tried saving the world from itself when I was young and full of hope and ambition.


As a whole humanity still practices ritual in every aspect of life I've run into.
So, and I brush my teeth the same way every day. I don't understand the importance that you're placing on this idea. Why is this important to you?

Maybe you haven't seen war? In all that chaos, its the ritual that keeps us sane.
No, I haven't. I was being deployed to Saudi Arabia and became incredibly ill from one of the vaccinations. And so went my military career. Most of my family has. I've been having conversations like this my entire life.

You really should email my friend. You need to talk to someone who speaks your language and has the same level of testosterone. You're still caught up in war. You haven't put it down yet.

Leaders are taught these rituals and how to properly perform them in combat. Men learn to expect these rituals and the comforts that follow them. They almost depend on them when bullets are meeting flesh.
And they drill these small and continuous rituals into you until you're as familiar with as you are with your tooth brush.

However, it can be something as simple as asking a man if he has been drinking water.

To me, there is no separation between how magick works and what the rest of the world is doing. Its obvious that magick *is* what we've been doing all along.
Humanity itself is a magickal operation. War is one of those products. However, so is putting a man on the moon and evolving as a species to the point we have expanded our awareness into the depths of the universe.
Yeah, does anyone know of a culture that didn't have some type of a war god? War is part of human nature.

But, I don't understand "Humanity itself is a magickal operation." Can you explain what you mean by that? It could go several different ways and I'd rather clarify than assume.

Magic is one of the fibers that run through this world. Actually, the energetic strands that can be manipulated in order to wield magic are fibers that run through this world. Any magical practitioner worth their salt can choose to wield magic and affect the world mundanely OR to not and handle things mundanely.

There seems to be no stopping it. Those who work with it the best seem to dictate the reality the rest of us consume. This could mean the greatest covens or orders are actually organizations like Apple or Google. Those who refuse it are forced into hiding and when compared to most of us, seem downright cancerous to all the progress we've made.
What progress?

I'm not calling you guys cancerous. I'm just trying to get a perspective across. My question is why do so many of us experience these truths, but still cling to labels that prevent common thought from having an easy time understanding it.
Because the Mysteries aren't for the masses.

The reality may be that as we continue to evolve science will be able to measure magick. This won't give us credibility with the rest of the world, but instead hand over the ownership of that knowledge to the scientific communities. Especially once they learn to control it. We already know how to control it. Lets stop playing in the muddy details.
I don't think that'll be a good thing if it ever happens. We do? It's kinda like controlling electricity. Sometimes, it gets away from you because of the nature of what it is.

These are starting to turn into almost channeled writings from something deep inside me I'm still trying to figure out.
Yeah, your deeper thoughts. Conversations like this are really helpful with that.

[Shinichi]

We're getting caught up in the details.
I'm trying to encourage you to look at the bigger picture.

I ask you to look at the similarities and not the differences.

Very few people see as big a picture as I do, and this is why I am emphasizing the difference in this discussion with you. There are similarities in everything, but if you step so far back that you can barely see the forest you tend to forget how many millions of differences are inside it, and how important each one is. I've been there, and that road didn't end well for me.

Brushing your teeth in the morning might not be as powerful as saying your prayers before bedtime. However, that doesn't mean the ritual of brushing your teeth every morning isn't a ritual that has zero metaphysical impacts.

Every moment is a zen moment.

But it's not about zen moments. I practice and strongly advocate the development of the Waking State because meditative states that do not benefit waking life are useless, but that's something different too. It's not about the metaphysical impact or necessarily about the power, either -- as above, so below. There's always exchange of influence. However, ignoring the details isn't very practical if you want a well rounded development.

A habit is like water that flows down hill in a stream. The water doesn't go where ever it wants, it just follows its well-made path easily. Behaving like that most certainly can be called a certain sort of zen -- except that the water isn't Mindful, and more than that, the water is a slave to its path. It cannot go back up stream, it cannot leave the stream and flow out into another area very easily; it must flow with the stream. A deeply ingrained habit is the loss of Free Will. Which isn't to say there's not a difference between good and bad habits either, because there is a huge difference between a habit where you meditate and exercise every morning and a habit where you smoke three packs a day. Everyone certainly has habits, both good and bad, but a habit itself is nothing magical. If anything, it's basic psychology.

Ritual magic is like opening a dammed up reservoir in a thunder storm. The magician who has trained and saved up his inner strength does indeed have such a reservoir, and the storm is the natural forces that the ritual works in harmony with -- for that is the point of using ritual magic, connecting to the macrocosm for a metaphysical boost. It doesn't matter if it's a spell casting ritual or a personal transformation ritual like the Middle Pillar and LBRP. When the working is done, the dam is opened and the water is directed exactly as the magician intends while the thunder storm rages and backs him up. This has nothing to do with a habit (unless you make the practice of ritual magic a habit), it has nothing to do with warfare (unless you are engaging in magical warfare, which is never pleasant) and it has little to do with the passive sort of zen state that you mention. It's an active, ceremonial use of metaphysical forces to achieve a change (internal or external). It's the exact opposite of a habit.

It's necessary to see bigger pictures in magic and spirituality, but you must not forget the smaller picture while you do so.



~:Shin:~

[Nahemah]

Wow, this topic has veered way off from it's original subject.

I like the digression, though, it's interesting.
I should split this so we have a new topic, but for now I'd like to raise the point of gun laws elsewhere in the World being much tighter than they are in the US, for some of us, accessing firearms for ritual purposes is almost impossible unless you have large sums of cash and know some illegal dealers.

We do have licenses here, for legal ownership, but your average citizen is about as likely to be permitted a licence as they are to be able to walk their dogs on the moon.

More later.

[magari]

RR and Shin; again, great responses.

1st: I get the feeling from both of you there is a lack of compassion for your average fellow man. This may be incredibly misplaced, but what you should know about me is I have endless love for humanity and the progress I see is going from tribal nomads who couldn't see over the horizon to massive organization which has put eyeballs in space. The atrocities of mankind today in my opinion pale in comparison to what has been committed in the past; if you choose to look at that part of humankind. Attempting to separate yourself from humanity in my experience has cancerous results and is borderline suicide. Most people I've run into start down the magickal path because they are fed up with the rest of the world and what they think humanity or our society's perspective on reality is. However, I've found this doesn't mean we're right. It means we don't understand why humanity is currently doing what its doing. We don't understand how we got here and where we are going. However, this is easily satiated if we look at humanity as a whole and play the micro-macro game. At the beginning of this conversation I compared humanity itself to a single organism. Perhaps a rose bush. This doesn't mean I think humanity is a rose bush obviously, but that humanity is playing the same game the rose bush is playing in this universe and subject to the same magickal principals that move and grow everything in this universe. Creating life from a seed and allowing it to grow and develop into something beautiful before death is the magickal operation of a rose bush. Humanity itself is a magickal operation of the universe. Earth can be seen as one of God's petri dishes. Notice how the universe allows for ALL possibilities to exist and notice how nature creates almost every possibility it can in order to find something that succeeds? Obviously humanity is subject to the same experiment. This is my perspective, and Do-Do Birds don't get very far when they don't play ball.

2nd: To me the only difference between Ritual and ritual is the scope of the work. One is obviously far more intense and has a much greater impact on the universe. However, ignoring the impact and importance of ritual has the same result as never brushing your teeth, ever. Not good.

3rd: Life may be a series of small rituals, but the number of rituals exactly is dependent upon scale. For example; The sequence of moving from the fool to the world in the tarot occurs in every moment AND over the course of a day AND over the course of a year AND whatever block of time you decide to separate from history due to the fractal/holographic nature of reality and how it moves through time. Therefore life is one giant ritual AND a series of rituals of infinite size and number.

4th: You're right, the mysteries aren't for the masses, however they are becoming easier to explain thanks to a modern perspective on reality. How else can you explain the revival created by chaos magick? Sigil magick itself has a very basic explanation backed up by the experiences of quantum theorists and chaos mathematicians and it works. Its very simple and attracts bright minds who see the correlations, but hold no stock in chanting and crystals. Most people don't want to identify with the community because of the dissonance it may cause with the everyday, normal, natural operation of the human race. They don't want to be a cancer, they want to play ball and help society and civilization grow by playing an active role while being honest with themselves and the people around them.

I see the forest, and I see the trees. The differences serve when we place a plan into action, however when we work with the forest, every tree benefits.
Perhaps we are being selfish when we cling to the differences. Perhaps as a community we refuse to lose the identity of what it is we are actually doing. Ego death of a school of thought? Economics is experiencing this right now, its been under fire from the scholastic community as to whether or not its actually a science. What happens when all we've been studying our entire lives turns out to be the principles that govern the quarks in the subatomic world and "everyone else" learns how to operate at that level because of the tools created by science?

Just saying its a possibility. If you don't see science and technology as human progress then I don't think this conversation can continue.

RR: You're right about me and my time in Afghanistan. However, its not something I particularly enjoy sharing with other members of the military as my experience over 4 years is incredibly unique and I only get more frustrated when I meet some of the 0.5% of our society who has served and realize they are a member of the 99% who never see combat. On top of that I worked with very specialized units who's missions usually fell outside the overall mission essential task list for the entire NATO operation in Afghanistan. Unfortunately my experience in the military was also incredibly sheltered and I feel no sense of camaraderie or understanding with 99% of the armed forces active or otherwise.

However, I am self-aware enough to realize how much of my experience makes up who I am now and have taken precautions and proceed in my studies with the proper tools to "balance" myself until I return to harmony. If you look at my zodiac I am a very strong Aries sun and Leo Moon. My intensity and inner fire is currently being dowsed with my girlfriends Pisces/Virgo nature. This is a relationship I engineered long before I got out, however, its only recently come to manifest and the cooling effect is more than enough for now. That being said I honor everything I have become and have realized my full potential in multiple aspects and while some of my quirks seem ridiculous in a society where the reality of life and death is dulled almost to the point of numbness, they serve me, my friends, my family, and my practice tenfold in regards to protection and domination.

Shin: I've realized the differences are only as important as they serve us in staying alive and happy. When the differences fail to support or sustain us we must step back in order to find our path again. Also, my HGA, spirit guide, animal totem, whatever; is the red tailed hawk. You will have a hard time convincing me to land and look at something I can see just fine from way up high in the sky.

Again. I appreciate you both as I'm currently seeking a new role to play in the society we live in, currently attending school for kicks and the credibility that comes with it. I haven't reached out to the occult/newage community for a very long time and while I'm extremely well read and practiced, everything has fallen way to my ability to practice magick in the moment, reacting and acting based on observation of the movements of the subtle energies. In them I see details (thought forms, sigils, auras, ect), however I work with the fountain from which all is sprung in order to affect the massive changes I desire in my reality. I dont have time for the little tricks anymore. I'm hesitant to call them that because of the possible negative perspective I'm suggesting. Again, in my opinion its only a matter of scope and at which point on the assembly line of manifestation you want to stand.

And from where I stand, its only a matter of time before the rest of the world figures out how we do what we do. Its time to play ball. We are the ones with the knowledge. I don't propose we cast our pearls before swine, however I do recommend we open our minds to the possibility that everyone is a magician whether or not they realize it. I've run into too many people who manifest reality much more effectively and are far more self-aware than some of the most "experienced" witches/sorcerers/magicians I've ever met. When attempting discussions with these people on how they perform their magick, the common language is science and psychology.

Science and psychology aren't getting lucky. They are performing the same operations the Egyptian cults and alchemists of old were performing back when our picture of the universe was much more limited. However the natural state of humanity suggests that the language of the ancients doesn't serve us anymore.

This is my experience. Don't confuse me for a patriot or a fanboy of government. However, I do believe that without modern government, we wouldn't be accomplishing the feats we are today.

If humanity was created by the universe to experience itself. Then those of us who are creating the reality everyone else is born into seems to be placed higher on the social hierarchy of our civilizations. Either that or they're just bloody rich. [rofl]

[magari]

The following statment could potentially be referring to the past, present, future, or never:


I get a feeling we are all about to experience a major change in how we study the occult.

[magari]

Namaeh:

Yeah I realized a long time ago I'm way off-topic. Apologies for that.

This all kinda fell out of me when I watched EA Koetting call himself a revolutionary. [confused]

If you split the topic. I'll find it.

Thanks [pray]

[RoseRed]

Quite honestly, I could care less about talking about Koetting. I've seen the lives of some of his 'followers' who desperately wish they were a 'living god' while remaining in delusion and squalor. I'm sure he has his own support system for working through his life's issues.

RR and Shin; again, great responses.
I don't know if they're great - but they're honest.

1st: I get the feeling from both of you there is a lack of compassion for your average fellow man.
Actually, I have one of the biggest hearts that is overflowing with compassion. That may not come across well in the written word or in many of these discussions but it's true. I have a lot of compassion for my fellow wo/man. Humanity as a whole - not so much. Shin is one of the most compassionate occultists I've ever met. You don't get to know that side of people on the public forums. Don't mistake what you see publicly as the whole of an individual. My heart is bleeding for that poor man who lost his daughter in the other thread. I can feel his pain through his words.

I can only help with what's placed in front of me. There's only one of me. As my health deteriorates - I've had to pull in closer to home and take care of what's important to me. If you want to try to save the world - have at it. That's no longer my place in things.

And people have all sorts of different things that are important to them. Can you imagine a world where the only battle cry is 'save the wales'? What about everything else that needs saving, too?

This may be incredibly misplaced, but what you should know about me is I have endless love for humanity and the progress I see is going from tribal nomads who couldn't see over the horizon to massive organization which has put eyeballs in space. The atrocities of mankind today in my opinion pale in comparison to what has been committed in the past; if you choose to look at that part of humankind.
The atrocities are the same - especially in the more 'hidden' places. The weapons have been upgraded. Hell, you can kill people from a video game console now with a drone. You no longer need a sword, dagger or garrotte to take a life.

Attempting to separate yourself from humanity in my experience has cancerous results and is borderline suicide. Most people I've run into start down the magickal path because they are fed up with the rest of the world and what they think humanity or our society's perspective on reality is.
I have to stop you here. I agree that a lot of people do BUT it's the other ones that you should get to know. It's not about escapism - it's about living life to the fullest.

I was born a witch into a family lineage. I didn't turn to the occult to escape anything. It's a part of who I am, my heritage and my future.

As a Witch, I am separate from the rest of humanity. I'm different. If it was way long ago - I'd probably have a hut or cabin way out on the outskirts of town or deep into the woods. There are many reasons for that. It's why it is sometimes called The Lonely Path.

Loving all of humanity may be your thing. It's not everybody's thing. Remember the wales.

However, I've found this doesn't mean we're right. It means we don't understand why humanity is currently doing what its doing. We don't understand how we got here and where we are going. However, this is easily satiated if we look at humanity as a whole and play the micro-macro game. At the beginning of this conversation I compared humanity itself to a single organism. Perhaps a rose bush. This doesn't mean I think humanity is a rose bush obviously, but that humanity is playing the same game the rose bush is playing in this universe and subject to the same magickal principals that move and grow everything in this universe. Creating life from a seed and allowing it to grow and develop into something beautiful before death is the magickal operation of a rose bush. Humanity itself is a magickal operation of the universe. Earth can be seen as one of God's petri dishes. Notice how the universe allows for ALL possibilities to exist and notice how nature creates almost every possibility it can in order to find something that succeeds? Obviously humanity is subject to the same experiment. This is my perspective, and Do-Do Birds don't get very far when they don't play ball.

There's a lot more magic in a rose bush than growing before it dies.

and for the record - I don't believe that a local war god from a desert region created all of this petri dish. That's personal opinion. I'd rather not argue it.

2nd: To me the only difference between Ritual and ritual is the scope of the work. One is obviously far more intense and has a much greater impact on the universe. However, ignoring the impact and importance of ritual has the same result as never brushing your teeth, ever. Not good.
And you're right. You just don't yet understand the importance of the difference in that scope of the work yet. I have faith that you will.

3rd: Life may be a series of small rituals, but the number of rituals exactly is dependent upon scale. For example; The sequence of moving from the fool to the world in the tarot occurs in every moment AND over the course of a day AND over the course of a year AND whatever block of time you decide to separate from history due to the fractal/holographic nature of reality and how it moves through time. Therefore life is one giant ritual AND a series of rituals of infinite size and number.
Honestly, I think you're too hung up on the whole ritual thing. That's just me. I do hope that I get to see where this eventually goes for you. Obviously, it's something very important in your life.

4th: You're right, the mysteries aren't for the masses, however they are becoming easier to explain thanks to a modern perspective on reality. How else can you explain the revival created by chaos magick? Sigil magick itself has a very basic explanation backed up by the experiences of quantum theorists and chaos mathematicians and it works. Its very simple and attracts bright minds who see the correlations, but hold no stock in chanting and crystals. Most people don't want to identify with the community because of the dissonance it may cause with the everyday, normal, natural operation of the human race. They don't want to be a cancer, they want to play ball and help society and civilization grow by playing an active role while being honest with themselves and the people around them.
You have a very romanticized view regarding Chaos Magicians. Most of them are lazy - they jack off into a scribbled drawing and call it magick. It's easy. There's no dogma to learn.

There are some very bright minds that practice chaos magic. Very few of them align themselves with the new wave of 'chaos mages'.

I don't know what's with you and this cancer analogy but it's getting to be a bit much. And not entirely accurate the way you just used it.

You may believe whatever you like of me and my views on the 'big picture'. I play my part with humanity, society and it's future. It's just not something I discuss publicly. What I will say is that the idea you have in your head is not accurate.

I see the forest, and I see the trees. The differences serve when we place a plan into action, however when we work with the forest, every tree benefits.
Perhaps we are being selfish when we cling to the differences. Perhaps as a community we refuse to lose the identity of what it is we are actually doing. Ego death of a school of thought? Economics is experiencing this right now, its been under fire from the scholastic community as to whether or not its actually a science. What happens when all we've been studying our entire lives turns out to be the principles that govern the quarks in the subatomic world and "everyone else" learns how to operate at that level because of the tools created by science?
I have no idea. We'll figure it out if it ever happens.

Regardless of scientific advancements - 'everyone else' is not going to learn how to operate on these levels. The Mysteries aren't for the masses. It really is that simple. You're over complicating things and imagining a world that doesn't exist.

Just saying its a possibility. If you don't see science and technology as human progress then I don't think this conversation can continue.
Ok - science and tech. I never said I didn't see it - I was asking what you were talking about. There is progress in many areas.

RR: You're right about me and my time in Afghanistan. However, its not something I particularly enjoy sharing with other members of the military as my experience over 4 years is incredibly unique and I only get more frustrated when I meet some of the 0.5% of our society who has served and realize they are a member of the 99% who never see combat. On top of that I worked with very specialized units who's missions usually fell outside the overall mission essential task list for the entire NATO operation in Afghanistan. Unfortunately my experience in the military was also incredibly sheltered and I feel no sense of camaraderie or understanding with 99% of the armed forces active or otherwise.
He's a 24 year Navy vet. There's not much he hasn't seen. I said you should talk to him about the Mountain Spirit that you experienced. You have overinflated it's position and importance simply because you had no frame of reference (and nothing to compare it to). I don't recall suggesting you guys discuss the aftermath of taking lives. I wouldn't be surprised if it came up eventually but not why I recommended it.

However, I am self-aware enough to realize how much of my experience makes up who I am now and have taken precautions and proceed in my studies with the proper tools to "balance" myself until I return to harmony. If you look at my zodiac I am a very strong Aries sun and Leo Moon. My intensity and inner fire is currently being dowsed with my girlfriends Pisces/Virgo nature. This is a relationship I engineered long before I got out, however, its only recently come to manifest and the cooling effect is more than enough for now. That being said I honor everything I have become and have realized my full potential in multiple aspects and while some of my quirks seem ridiculous in a society where the reality of life and death is dulled almost to the point of numbness, they serve me, my friends, my family, and my practice tenfold in regards to protection and domination.

Do NOT make the mistake of assuming you know a goddamned thing regarding my positions regarding life and death. Or the giving and taking of it.

Yes, the current social structure in the US is to insulate people from death. It's pitiful. It is a part of life - some say the greatest Mystery of all.

I have never said I walk the Path of a Soldier. I walk a Warrior's Path. I have not seen the combat of armies and nation but I have been fighting my own private wars all my life. I have died and returned already. That gives you a VERY different perspective on things.

Protection and domination - oh yeah. I hear ya.

The problem with that is you'll never find true balance or harmony with that in the forefront. But you're working on it and that in itself, is to be commended. Integration is Key.

Shin: I've realized the differences are only as important as they serve us in staying alive and happy. When the differences fail to support or sustain us we must step back in order to find our path again. Also, my HGA, spirit guide, animal totem, whatever; is the red tailed hawk. You will have a hard time convincing me to land and look at something I can see just fine from way up high in the sky.

That's not an HGA or a totem in the accurate definitions of the words. You'll have many different animals over the course of your lifetime. Learn what you need from the hawk and be willing to learn as a new one shows up. You're still showing your fangs of a predator. Hawk isn't the only spirit animal you have walking with you. What do you know of Contrary Medicine? If the answer is not much - email my friend. I don't know what you're afraid of or what you're expecting but when offers such as this are made they're not open ended.

Again. I appreciate you both as I'm currently seeking a new role to play in the society we live in, currently attending school for kicks and the credibility that comes with it. I haven't reached out to the occult/newage community for a very long time and while I'm extremely well read and practiced, everything has fallen way to my ability to practice magick in the moment, reacting and acting based on observation of the movements of the subtle energies. In them I see details (thought forms, sigils, auras, ect), however I work with the fountain from which all is sprung in order to affect the massive changes I desire in my reality. I dont have time for the little tricks anymore. I'm hesitant to call them that because of the possible negative perspective I'm suggesting. Again, in my opinion its only a matter of scope and at which point on the assembly line of manifestation you want to stand.

Oh honey, you'll come back around to playing with tricks. They're fun. You're just after deeper things right now. Something to remember about going down into the deep end is that you HAVE to come back up for air. Practice magic in the moment? Any practitioner worth their salt is able to do that.

And from where I stand, its only a matter of time before the rest of the world figures out how we do what we do.
Then we stand in very different places. No they won't. It's a matter of how people are built on the inside. Not everyone can interface with the Currents in the way that's necessary. It's not universal among the human species.

Its time to play ball. <I disagree> We are the ones with the knowledge. I don't propose we cast our pearls before swine, however I do recommend we open our minds to the possibility that everyone is a magician whether or not they realize it.
No, they're not. We can just agree to disagree here. I doubt we'll sway each other's opinions on this. I thought that way 20 years ago. I've learned otherwise in the intervening time.

I've run into too many people who manifest reality much more effectively and are far more self-aware than some of the most "experienced" witches/sorcerers/magicians I've ever met. When attempting discussions with these people on how they perform their magick, the common language is science and psychology.
That's because they don't understand the underlying mechanics of what they're doing. If they did you'd be having conversations where the common language is construction terminology. Which is a major problems for naturals. It works for them - they don't care how. Until the day comes that the how matters.

Science and psychology aren't getting lucky. They are performing the same operations the Egyptian cults and alchemists of old were performing back when our picture of the universe was much more limited. However the natural state of humanity suggests that the language of the ancients doesn't serve us anymore.
You should really take the ancient cultures off that pedestal. They all fell, remember?

This is my experience. Don't confuse me for a patriot or a fanboy of government. However, I do believe that without modern government, we wouldn't be accomplishing the feats we are today.
Modern government controls modern science. I agree.

If humanity was created by the universe to experience itself. Then those of us who are creating the reality everyone else is born into seems to be placed higher on the social hierarchy of our civilizations. Either that or they're just bloody rich. [rofl]

[Nahemah]

@Magari: I'll name it so it's easy to find. [thumbup]

I can also leave it in this folder for now, so it's doubly easy to find. [grin]

I'll do it later when I have more time, gotta go now, but do keep posting in here anyway,
as a split is easy enough for me to do and it won't mess anything up. [thumbup]

[Ramscha]

Magari, before you respond, read Roses word very carefully!

Anyway, let me pay you my respect here openly, Rose!

Ramscha

[RoseRed]

Wow! Thank you.

[RoseRed]

I hope I don't blow your respect with the rest of this. I'm reading over what was written so far. That last post was a long one but there's more to address, I think.

Perhaps a rose bush. This doesn't mean I think humanity is a rose bush obviously, but that humanity is playing the same game the rose bush is playing in this universe and subject to the same magickal principals that move and grow everything in this universe. Creating life from a seed and allowing it to grow and develop into something beautiful before death is the magickal operation of a rose bush.

That's simply one vein of magic. One current of the many. You're speaking of the magic of creation and destruction. That's a very deep topic. You're just touching upon the surface of it. As an Animist, I also believe that the rose bush you speak of has a spirit as well. That's another very deep topic.

Its very simple and attracts bright minds who see the correlations, but hold no stock in chanting and crystals.

Do you realize how dismissive and insulting you are being towards Low Magic while just beginning to touch upon the main topic headings of it?

Chanting has very specific uses. Crystals - the way a lot of people use them today is just plain silly - I'll give you that. I think you'd be amazed at what you can do with crystals. Just look to your precious science and all the ways they've found to use quartz.

The differences serve when we place a plan into action, however when we work with the forest, every tree benefits.

Wrong. I had acreage when I lived in the country. I also had a pine forest. The trees that are sacrificed for the sake of the stand do not benefit while they're on their way to the lumber yard.

Just a suggestion here - take a vacation. Relax a little bit. Let your energies unclench and just breathe.

Perhaps as a community we refuse to lose the identity of what it is we are actually doing.

Another romanticized idea. We're a very loose community that encompasses extreme opposites. Trying to get a consensus from occultists or magical practitioners is like trying to herd cats.

I have a friend who is very involved in the LGBT community and she comes across the same thing. People thing of it as one cohesive whole but in reality - there's a lot of separation between many of the people that fall under that banner.

There is no one community identity.

However, its not something I particularly enjoy sharing with other members of the military as my experience over 4 years is incredibly unique and I only get more frustrated when I meet some of the 0.5% of our society who has served and realize they are a member of the 99% who never see combat. On top of that I worked with very specialized units who's missions usually fell outside the overall mission essential task list for the entire NATO operation in Afghanistan. Unfortunately my experience in the military was also incredibly sheltered and I feel no sense of camaraderie or understanding with 99% of the armed forces active or otherwise.

I understand. That's kind of a family tradition.

You're in the 1% club, dude. That means you don't fit in with the rest of the community anymore. Not on that tight bonded level. You know that. You know you're separate from it. Part of me wonders if that's what draws you to this whole 'sake of humanity' thing.

It's all about accepting yourself. You cannot Integrate until you do.

However, I am self-aware enough to realize how much of my experience makes up who I am now and have taken precautions and proceed in my studies with the proper tools to "balance" myself until I return to harmony. If you look at my zodiac I am a very strong Aries sun and Leo Moon. My intensity and inner fire is currently being dowsed with my girlfriends Pisces/Virgo nature. This is a relationship I engineered long before I got out, however, its only recently come to manifest and the cooling effect is more than enough for now. That being said I honor everything I have become and have realized my full potential in multiple aspects and while some of my quirks seem ridiculous in a society where the reality of life and death is dulled almost to the point of numbness, they serve me, my friends, my family, and my practice tenfold in regards to protection and domination.

Good. And I really do understand your quirks. Would you be surprised to find out that we built a shooting range in my back yard when I lived in the country? My exhusband hated going out back shooting with me. I'm a marksman. He's not. LOL

Holding yourself in a state of 'balance' why trying to find harmony is also to be commended. It's not an easy thing to do. Some days it can be like walking a tightrope in a hurricane. Other days - it's easier.

[Shinichi]

I get the feeling from both of you there is a lack of compassion for your average fellow man.

The web that Rose has weaved tells the story of a soul that has done more for her people than she will ever let them know, and I have done more for mine than they probably deserve.

You mistake fortitude for apathy, you mistake calm and peace for coldness. It is the duty of leaders or teachers and the responsibility of the wise to maintain such calm, not only for the sometimes-necessity of being able to act under pressure (and there's no pressure quite like standing in the presence of a fully evoked spirit) but because we sometimes have to make choices that nobody else wants to.

This does not mean that we do not see the bigger picture. It means that we not only see the bigger picture, we sometimes help paint it.

And just because we do not carry the burdens of humanity as a whole, that does not mean that we do not care for our fellow man. It just means that we take care of the decisions that we can take care of. I cannot do a damn thing for anyone in Iraq and I can't save whales or starving children in Africa because in my life situation I am quite simply powerless to help them, but I can take care of my family and I can help my friends and community in countless big and little ways -- so I do.

Every individual has a personal sphere of influence and a personal sphere responsibility. Rose and I know ours, but do you know yours?

The atrocities of mankind today in my opinion pale in comparison to what has been committed in the past; if you choose to look at that part of humankind.

Heh.

Attempting to separate yourself from humanity in my experience has cancerous results and is borderline suicide

.

A cancerous cell, by definition, is one that breaks off from the natural patterns of the macrocosm (the larger system) in order to do its own thing.

Dude, seriously. Think for a moment about where your analogy is more appropriately applied. I carry a certain detachment (which is not apathy) from human society (which is not the human race), sure, but just because modern society is powerful that does not make it entirely natural. Which reminds me, I think its fitting to repost this here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLZ_Zy1VhMI

Being different from the average human or the "whole of humanity" doesn't make me inhuman. It doesn't make me better or worse. It just makes me different -- which is not a bad thing, because every human being is an individual, and any whole is only ever a collection of individuals who in turn define the whole.

Most people I've run into start down the magickal path because they are fed up with the rest of the world and what they think humanity or our society's perspective on reality is.

You need to run into some different people.

To me the only difference between Ritual and ritual is the scope of the work. One is obviously far more intense and has a much greater impact on the universe. However, ignoring the impact and importance of ritual has the same result as never brushing your teeth, ever. Not good.

But objective reality is more than merely what you think about something. Again, think carefully about the difference between habit and metaphysical ritual.

Life may be a series of small rituals

You're stuck on this, so let me share with you an old eastern proverb:

"Beware your thoughts, for thoughts become words. Beware your words, for words become actions. Beware your actions, for actions become habits. Beware your habits, for they define your fate."

This is what you are concerned with. This is not a ritual of the ceremonial magic style, it's just life.

How else can you explain the revival created by chaos magick?

The average modern chaote is exactly what RoseRed described: lazy. I've known a number of hard core chaos magicians, and I've even known a couple of more lax guys who might be confused for the lazy wannabe for the simplicity of their craft. Both sorts are very different from what chaos magic became among the masses.

If you don't see science and technology as human progress then I don't think this conversation can continue.

Science and technology are part of human progress. In a number of ways it's a backwards sort of progress, but it's a good foundation for what is going to be built on top of it over the next few generations.

Shin: I've realized the differences are only as important as they serve us in staying alive and happy. When the differences fail to support or sustain us we must step back in order to find our path again.

That's a rather narrow and perhaps selfish view of differences.

Think for a moment about the difference between you and most of the people closest to you. Think about your experiences as a soldier, why you traveled the road you have and endured the burdens you carry, so that they and millions of others do not have to.

"Humans" are on one level all alike. The "forest," so to say. But if you don't account for individuality while trying to see the whole, you fail to understand humanity as a whole and you especially fail to really understand individual people. You are different from the people around you because of where you've been, and I am different from you and them both because of where I have been.

Every man and woman is a star, and every star in the sky has a different glow!

Also, my HGA, spirit guide, animal totem, whatever; is the red tailed hawk. You will have a hard time convincing me to land and look at something I can see just fine from way up high in the sky.

What you're talking about is a familiar. Fylgja, Fetch, whatever. I have a few myself, and some adepts have had dozens. Such spirits are there to teach you lessons, not to define who you are. Learn your lessons and grow from the company, but don't get attached and stuck on a particular idea. If you're stuck so high in the air that you don't want to land, perhaps it's time to talk to Snake.

The HGA is something much higher, and something much higher and very different from your higher self too.

I dont have time for the little tricks anymore. I'm hesitant to call them that because of the possible negative perspective I'm suggesting.

Sometimes those little tricks are incredibly useful, like when someone you know is sick and you can make it go away and make them giggle at the same time with a single snap of your finger. The little moments are worth it.

And from where I stand, its only a matter of time before the rest of the world figures out how we do what we do.

If you care to believe occult history then there was a time long, long ago when the whole world understood the reality of metaphysics. They destroyed their world in a war that would make a rather interesting movie and gave us the legend of Atlantis.

Its time to play ball.

Ah, but there is no ball and there is no game to play. If you immediately know candlelight is fire, then the meal was cooked long ago. [zomg]

Points to anybody who gets that last reference.

We are the ones with the knowledge. I don't propose we cast our pearls before swine, however I do recommend we open our minds to the possibility that everyone is a magician whether or not they realize it.

Every human being is inherently psychic to one degree or another. A great deal of research is being done on this by such folk as Rupert Sheldrake and Dean Radin.

But being psychic does not make you a magician. Being psychic does not in itself help you understand the nature of the universe. It is not the Knowledge of Knowledge. It is not The Mysteries. It is not Wisdom.

A million people may be psychic. Most of them may be greatly disciplined, highly intelligent, very empathetic, and of purely noble character. But only a few of them may be wise, for wisdom is more than a quality of virtue. It is an experience.

I've run into too many people who manifest reality much more effectively and are far more self-aware than some of the most "experienced" witches/sorcerers/magicians I've ever met. When attempting discussions with these people on how they perform their magick, the common language is science and psychology.

You should not assume that the most experienced occultists that you have met are the most experienced occultists. I tend to project an image of great experience myself, but compared to the true elder initiates of the occult scene (who you very rarely find in places like this) I am but an aspirant with a big mouth.

A lot of great things can be done with science and psychology, but that is not always magic. It may be magical, but it is not always magic.

They are performing the same operations the Egyptian cults and alchemists of old were performing back when our picture of the universe was much more limited.

They most certainly are not. The initiations and practices of the Greak and Egyptian Mystery Schools were nothing like the methods of modern science. They weren't even anything like most of modern magic, and quite frankly I'm happy that things are more simple these days.

However the natural state of humanity suggests that the language of the ancients doesn't serve us anymore.

The language of ancient mysticism stopped being useful a long time ago. That's why people like Bardon and Crowley published so much in far more simple English. Or, well, German in Bardon's case. [razz]

However, I do believe that without modern government, we wouldn't be accomplishing the feats we are today.

As Rose also emphasized, think carefully over the real meaning of this sentiment.

If humanity was created by the universe to experience itself.

If is the biggest two letter word in the English language. [thumbup]

I get a feeling we are all about to experience a major change in how we study the occult.

That happened a long time ago. Magic is simple, it's people who have the terrible habit of over complicating it. In the last few (including the present) generations, more and more of those experienced with Wisdom have been stepping forth to express this and to try and help people understand it where they can. Presently, two of them are spending a great deal of time and energy trying to help you.



~:Shin:~

[magari]

and for the record - I don't believe that a local war god from a desert region created all of this petri dish. That's personal opinion. I'd rather not argue it.

I don't believe that either. In the "Thoughtforms vs Actual Entities" thread I mentioned the medium which consciousness acts upon seems to be what everyone else throughout history has confused as God. Even though our consciousness seems to be something that sprouts out of that medium.

In regards to Ritual and ritual.

You just don't yet understand the importance of the difference in that scope of the work yet. I have faith that you will.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the importance seems to be where along the assembly line of manifestation that work takes place. However, never brushing your teeth can have dire consequences if one is unable to maintain the "perfect" diet. I would love for you to expand on this more if you're up to it.

Regardless of scientific advancements - 'everyone else' is not going to learn how to operate on these levels. The Mysteries aren't for the masses. It really is that simple. You're over complicating things and imagining a world that doesn't exist.

Someone once told me that a great spell for satisfying your hunger is to make a bowl of cereal. I believe magick to be the underpinning force behind reality as we know it. Therefore simply being alive is practicing magick. This is another scope and scale thing. For example; humans were the first creatures on this earth who's minds had the pattern matching ability to "experience" the magick. The rest is history. In my opinion its not that some people practice magick and others don't. Some simply have a greater understanding of what they are doing and are able to use this understanding to accomplish more perhaps. If we want to talk about the scale though, the power and manifestations of the masses seems to outweigh the desires of the largest "magickal" organizations. This is my experience. This has caused most "magickal" organizations to focus on satisfying their individual desires.

I said you should talk to him about the Mountain Spirit that you experienced. You have overinflated it's position and importance simply because you had no frame of reference (and nothing to compare it to).

In my opinion I have simply placed it on the spectrum of possible existence and found it lies very close to the initial manifestations of Earth energy. Thats all.

Do NOT make the mistake of assuming you know a goddamned thing regarding my positions regarding life and death. Or the giving and taking of it.

I didn't.

That's not an HGA or a totem in the accurate definitions of the words.

The details here are only important if you subscribe to a particular paradigm, which I don't. Sorry. I've had people call it many things. The best way I've found to describe it is with the spirit animal parallel. I like to think I walk with the entire kingdom of nature beside me. However, the animal that has served me the most is the hawk. He appears for me in physical form as well, no matter where I seem to be. Out in nature, downtown amidst skyscrapers, in the valleys of Afghanistan, the rolling hills of Germany, or the mountains of Japan. Paradigms to me are like sunglasses. I have a bag full of em, but they don't change what I'm experiencing. Only how I relate it to the rest of the world.

Oh honey, you'll come back around to playing with tricks. They're fun. You're just after deeper things right now.

I've found them useful when something new bubbles out of the fountain. I can use a sigil or a poem to help identify that new something as it rises into manifestation, however its not necessary as I can easily keep up with it as it shifts and changes into being. Tarot lately has been a good compass, but I see the cards before I turn them over nowadays. It serves me better as a party trick now honestly and is a good way I've found for introducing bright minds to the subtle energies as its a perfect metaphor for co-creation.

You should really take the ancient cultures off that pedestal. They all fell, remember?

Thats exactly what I'm proposing. Yet, why do we still subscribe to their paradigms?

That's simply one vein of magic. One current of the many. You're speaking of the magic of creation and destruction. That's a very deep topic. You're just touching upon the surface of it. As an Animist, I also believe that the rose bush you speak of has a spirit as well. That's another very deep topic.

I agree and another lense to animism is that the plant has its own consciousness. There are all sorts of affinities tied to the rose bush because of the path it chose in life. Again, the details aren't important in this discussion and whatever point I'm trying to make.

What is the point here......

I'm not trying to save humanity. I'm not trying to save nature or mother earth either. In my opinion we are selfish to believe they need saving and that we are the creatures created by the universe for that kind of work. In my opinion that kind of work already happens naturally. However, I do believe in the relationship we have with the entirety of creation and that its a relationship that should be fostered.

In regards to humanity, we have all the solutions for our current problems, its only a matter of time before they bubble to the surface, or the proper people who can place them into action.

Do you realize how dismissive and insulting you are being towards Low Magic while just beginning to touch upon the main topic headings of it?

I do realize this and I apologize. I understand that it works and it serves a lot of people very well, however there is a very good reason its not practiced by humanity overall, especially in the communities that govern the rest of us. I believe that reason to be that its simply not as powerful as it once was due to the current paradigm most of us grow up in and accept. Atheism (for example) is a paradigm and it has its rituals and spells just like the rest of us.

I understand how getting occultists to come to a consensus is like herding cats. Getting world leaders to agree on something is an even greater exercise in my opinion, however the state of the individual is dependent upon it and great things come from it.

However, this isn't my goal.

I don't know what you're afraid of or what you're expecting but when offers such as this are made they're not open ended.

Again, I really appreciate your time and attention Rose, but I'm not here looking for help. I'm testing my ability to express myself amongst practitioners. If he would like to participate in this conversation I encourage it, but I'm not looking for anything nor am I at a loss for understanding. In my opinion there is a very good reason you are reading this before he is and others like manonthepath have stayed silent.

I really am grateful for your time and attention. I hope you feel that.
I am currently exploring options for fulfilling a role within society that resonates with the majority. I would love to be as versed in "Low Magick" as a lot of you are, however my experiments and results have been more than satisfying and it doesn't require me to understand the complexities of a hierarchy of angels or demons, or what incense needs burning.

From where I stand I can see the effects of these practices, however they're exponential power is nothing compared to where I work now.

I apologize if I hit a nerve. I can see how your Lonely Path and failing health correlates to what I've said about dismissing humanity and being cancerous.

I am sorry, but I am grateful.

I think I have run out of things to say. I hope that if anyone reading this finds themselves getting confused by the details, that they take a step back and try to see the bigger picture. It may help. I don't play in details anymore than it keeps me alive and happy.