Trade life for money

[manonthepath]

The comment I made about Jing is a stand alone comment. It is a hint for Manofsands to follow on his journey. As I stated, the comment was my gift to him. That's all it was meant to be. I never offered to volunteer any of my innermost secrets to anyone and have no obligation to share them. I'm not being mysterious. Please don't mistake my candor for hostility. I bear none. I asked for help only one time on this forum. I was asking for help researching something to do with the "Sonnenrad." The only response I got was a rude insult. I take part in this forum to help people to grow and mature safely into practitioners, who will do more good than harm. I am not here to bear my soul or to give away what has cost me decades and hundreds of thousands of dollars to learn. When the motivation comes to me, I may share, but it's as likely as not that when I do die my secrets will die with me. I can't think of a single good reason why I would want to empower the general populace with knowledge of this type which can be quite dangerous to everyone. I hope you understand my position. Again, please understand that I mean no hostility to anyone and hold many here in high regard. Happy Yule to all.

[Rin]

The comment I made about Jing is a stand alone comment. It is a hint for Manofsands to follow on his journey. As I stated, the comment was my gift to him. That's all it was meant to be. I never offered to volunteer any of my innermost secrets to anyone and have no obligation to share them. I'm not being mysterious. Please don't mistake my candor for hostility. I bear none. I asked for help only one time on this forum. I was asking for help researching something to do with the "Sonnenrad." The only response I got was a rude insult. I take part in this forum to help people to grow and mature safely into practitioners, who will do more good than harm. I am not here to bear my soul or to give away what has cost me decades and hundreds of thousands of dollars to learn. When the motivation comes to me, I may share, but it's as likely as not that when I do die my secrets will die with me. I can't think of a single good reason why I would want to empower the general populace with knowledge of this type which can be quite dangerous to everyone. I hope you understand my position. Again, please understand that I mean no hostility to anyone and hold many here in high regard. Happy Yule to all.

That's all very well and good, nobody is saying you're obliged to share everything you know on request - every practitioners has their secrets that they can't or shouldn't put out in a public space. But if you're really here to help people reach a deeper understanding and become better practitioners, a good starting point would be to speak straightforwardly. It's bad form to drop hints and then dodge around questions or refuse to follow up with at least a basic explanation, not to mention counterproductive to your stated goal.

If you don't want to talk about something, simply don't talk about it. Nobody forced you to bring the subject up, you could just as easily have PM'd the individual in question if you wished to keep it private. Or answered my question by saying "yes, I know (of) such a technique, but for X reason I can't go into the specifics." That's fine. Nobody asked you to be a teacher, but if you're not willing to offer at least a basic explanation of something publicly, then don't bring that thing up in public. All it does is irritate people and make you look like you're giving yourself airs.

[Desecrated]

The comment I made about Jing is a stand alone comment. It is a hint for Manofsands to follow on his journey. As I stated, the comment was my gift to him. That's all it was meant to be. I never offered to volunteer any of my innermost secrets to anyone and have no obligation to share them. I'm not being mysterious. Please don't mistake my candor for hostility. I bear none. I asked for help only one time on this forum. I was asking for help researching something to do with the "Sonnenrad." The only response I got was a rude insult. I take part in this forum to help people to grow and mature safely into practitioners, who will do more good than harm. I am not here to bear my soul or to give away what has cost me decades and hundreds of thousands of dollars to learn. When the motivation comes to me, I may share, but it's as likely as not that when I do die my secrets will die with me. I can't think of a single good reason why I would want to empower the general populace with knowledge of this type which can be quite dangerous to everyone. I hope you understand my position. Again, please understand that I mean no hostility to anyone and hold many here in high regard. Happy Yule to all.

That's all very well and good, nobody is saying you're obliged to share everything you know on request - every practitioners has their secrets that they can't or shouldn't put out in a public space. But if you're really here to help people reach a deeper understanding and become better practitioners, a good starting point would be to speak straightforwardly. It's bad form to drop hints and then dodge around questions or refuse to follow up with at least a basic explanation, not to mention counterproductive to your stated goal.

If you don't want to talk about something, simply don't talk about it. Nobody forced you to bring the subject up, you could just as easily have PM'd the individual in question if you wished to keep it private. Or answered my question by saying "yes, I know (of) such a technique, but for X reason I can't go into the specifics." That's fine. Nobody asked you to be a teacher, but if you're not willing to offer at least a basic explanation of something publicly, then don't bring that thing up in public. All it does is irritate people and make you look like you're giving yourself airs.

I'll rather get a hint, then nothing.
For me the information he gave was sufficient enough to do my own research on the subject.

Don't tell others how to post, be happy for what they post.

[Atzmuth]

I'm willing to trade 10 years of my life for 10000us dollars.

What happens now.

What happens now? Good question... The happening thing is that you just declared how worthless your life is compared to money. Doesnt matter how much money you are putting in when you are selling your body. Human life is priceless. So out of declaring how worthless your body is compered to cash money, you will also be making a bad trade considering the fact that human body is priceless but you are selling it to 10000 dollars. As a result either way you lose.

[Desecrated]

I'm willing to trade 10 years of my life for 10000us dollars.

What happens now.

What happens now? Good question... The happening thing is that you just declared how worthless your life is compared to money. Doesnt matter how much money you are putting in when you are selling your body. Human life is priceless. So out of declaring how worthless your body is compered to cash money, you will also be making a bad trade considering the fact that human body is priceless but you are selling it to 10000 dollars. As a result either way you lose.

Although history shows that life is pretty fucking worthless.
Recalculated in todays money a slave in America was worth about 1800us dollars. And that was for life.
So I put a pretty high price on my self.

[magari]

I still think you're lowballing yourself.

In other words you should be asking for more than 10k.

[manonthepath]

I don't think my style is bad form at all. Sometimes dropping hints or clues and allowing people to do the legwork is the best way to ensure that only the most serious practitioners obtain secrets. Also, it allows each to find their own particular understanding regarding how to grow. This pedagogical techniques is often popular in Asian martial arts circles as well as mysticism.

[Rin]

I don't think my style is bad form at all. Sometimes dropping hints or clues and allowing people to do the legwork is the best way to ensure that only the most serious practitioners obtain secrets. Also, it allows each to find their own particular understanding regarding how to grow. This pedagogical techniques is often popular in Asian martial arts circles as well as mysticism.

Popular amongst those who feel the need to present themselves as knowing more than they do, and do so by parading around dropping hints of 'secret knowledge' that are just extensive enough to give the impression that the person knows something hidden or mysterious, without actually demonstrating any real knowledge. All of genuinely attained mystics and martial artists I've met, Eastern and Western, don't feel the need to drum up their image by telling you about all the stuff they aren't going to tell you - they just don't tell you (until you're ready, in the case of a teacher > student relationship). You can tell a real master or a genuine student because they don't feel the need to drop hints and give themselves an aura of mystery, they're solid and comfortable in their own progress and the knowledge and capabilities they possess.

[manonthepath]

I guess my words have offended you. This was not my intention. Now you've turned a simple gift to another person into some personal matter between us. I explained my actions although I certainly never owed you or anyone any explanation. You may infer whatever you wish for whatever reasons you wish. To be perfectly truthful I don't care enough to try to impress strangers whom I'll, for the most part, never meet. This dialogue between us was initiated by you. My original comments were not intended for you. I politely and respectfully addressed your comments. Now you make attacks against my credibility because of my communicative style. You don't know me son. Why should your juvenile and superficial attempt at logic mean anything to me? Let's end our interaction in regard to this matter. I now consider this matter closed and will refrain from sharing such "secret" items in a public manner.

[Desecrated]

Popular amongst those who feel the need to present themselves as knowing more than they do, and do so by parading around dropping hints of 'secret knowledge' that are just extensive enough to give the impression that the person knows something hidden or mysterious, without actually demonstrating any real knowledge. All of genuinely attained mystics and martial artists I've met, Eastern and Western, don't feel the need to drum up their image by telling you about all the stuff they aren't going to tell you - they just don't tell you (until you're ready, in the case of a teacher > student relationship). You can tell a real master or a genuine student because they don't feel the need to drop hints and give themselves an aura of mystery, they're solid and comfortable in their own progress and the knowledge and capabilities they possess.

Since this is a forum about magick, I think we should talk about this.

You assume that somebody has a certain intent because they have a behavior that is different from yours.

That is a pretty powerful projection you have going on there.

[manofsands]

Sorry I don't get on here as much as I use to. I missed a heated flurry over manonthepath's comment...

I'll give you a little gift bro: You ever hear of "Jing?"
[exclaim]

Thank You. I'm looking into the 3 treasures and the Tao as we speak. This seems a lot more fitting to me than I'd thought on the many brushes I've had with the subjects in the past. I appreciate your nudging. [thumbup]

Are you suggesting you know of a technique for draining pre-natal jing?

I know this is toward manonthepath, but what does it mean? I don't understand how pre-natal fit into what was said.

sounds like prostitution to me

I don't understand this either. I'm not picking. I really am trying to make the connections. I hate not getting "it".

The comment I made about Jing is a stand alone comment. It is a hint for Manofsands to follow on his journey. As I stated, the comment was my gift to him. That's all it was meant to be. I never offered to volunteer any of my innermost secrets to anyone and have no obligation to share them. I'm not being mysterious. Please don't mistake my ...

That's all very well and good, nobody is saying you're obliged to share everything you know on request - every practitioners has their secrets that they can't or shouldn't put out in a public space. But if you're really here to help people reach a deeper understanding and become better practitioners, a good starting point would be to speak straightforwardly. It's bad form to drop hints and then dodge around questions or refuse to follow up with at least a basic explanation, not to mention counterproductive to your stated goal...

I don't think he is being mysterious or misrepresenting. There is a lot of BS in the forums,.. as in everywhere else,.. religion,.. books,.. internet. You have to be able to separate the wheat from the chaff. Truth can come from idiots, BS can come from savants. You most certainly shouldn't be expected to be spoon fed Truths, ecspecially when one states, as manonthepath did a couple times in the fray, that this was just a personal comment to me.

I used to get upset at the vagueness of teachers when I first started my studies. But I came to understand there were probably good reasons for it. I can think of 2, though I'm sure there are more.

I believe most all of us in our various groups of desires all have in common a hightened sense of spiritual evolution, which I consider to be a kind of collecting of truths,.. knowledge,.. wisdom. These truths are not as easy to discuss as science or sports. The wise know that in trying to contain truths in words it's essence can be lost. That why many use parables, allegories, myths. They are not the truths, but the vehicles in which they ride. So the vagueness is a talking around the truth, which resides between the lines,in the void of the unsaid.

Secondly,... if there were a 'universal truth' that could explain it all in one sentence, I don't think hearing would ensure enlightenment. I think many truths are a heirarchy, a staircase, where one cannot understand a certain truth before understanding certain other truths first. Have you ever come across an idea you'd thought was BS only to come back to it weeks or years later and understand it?

So... why attack the messenger? Why even expect a message? Take what you can get from where ever you can get it. Pick and chose between all you hear. Only you are responsible for your progression.

Hear also is my hint who find themselves angered over how another acts... your is a personal sign post, an alert reflected of a deficiency of your own which you may want to address. That truly isn't an attack, but a pearl.

[Rin]

I know this is toward manonthepath, but what does it mean? I don't understand how pre-natal fit into what was said.

According to most mainstream schools of Taoist thought, pre-natal jing is the jing you're born with. Most of these schools of thought maintain that it comes in a finite quantity, and as you expend it, you age and die. However there is also post-natal jing, which can be produced through extensive practice of certain systems of energy work, internal martial arts and internal alchemy to replace the lost pre-natal jing. This serves the purpose of both allowing the practitioner to remain an effective martial artist into their old age (and generally active and healthy) and to extend their lifespan (within limits, but it's not uncommon for dedicated practitioners of these arts to remain active and healthy a decade or two past their first century) within this incarnation to allow greater spiritual progress to be made.

To achieve what is being discussed in this thread (the exchange of a span of time off the end of one's life in return for material reward), assuming the OP isn't a practitioners of one of the aforementioned arts with an accumulated abundance of post-natal jing (in which case this thread wouldn't exist, as he would know the answer to his own question), would require the ability to drain pre-natal jing from another individual and take it in. While I've heard multiple, recent accounts of certain masters in China who have the ability to drain Chi from a living creature (even to the point of death), when it comes to Jing, all I've come across is vague references to ancient Taoist practices (usually sexual in nature).

MOTP's references to jing and comment about being 'in the market' seemed a fairly clear insinuation that he believes he knows of a way of achieving this, which piqued my curiosity, so I asked. And yeah, I got irritated when instead of a simple "yes, I know of such practices," "no, I don't know of such practices" or "I can't discuss the issue," he dodged around the question. Like I said, bad form, especially when someone claims to be here to "help people to grow and mature." The rest of his comments on the matter have mostly consisted of dropping hints at all the secrets he claims to know. It's really quite immature, and it's not the first time he's behaved in this manner, which is why I brought it up.

Rin wrote:sounds like prostitution to me


I don't understand this either. I'm not picking. I really am trying to make the connections. I hate not getting "it".

I didn't write that, you're attributing a quote from Corvidus to me.

I used to get upset at the vagueness of teachers when I first started my studies. But I came to understand there were probably good reasons for it. I can think of 2, though I'm sure there are more.

But he isn't a teacher, and this isn't a school. This is a forum for discussion between fellow students, peers, with the hope of helping each other learn and grow. By nature some of these students will know more than others, but that's no reason to parade around showing off supposed "secret knowledge." If he wants to be a teacher, then he can feel free to recruit students and start a school, but that would still have nothing to do with this website. There are no official teachers here, nobody has special status, it's just a place for people with an interest in certain related subject matters to congregate.

And true teachers, as I said, aren't intentionally vague, at least not within the context of direct teaching (of course there's the question of attempting to explain the nature of mystical phenomenon that, without direct experience, require resorting to metaphor or mythologizing because language is insufficient, but the teacher in that situation will be up-front about what they're doing). Sure, there will be things that a student isn't ready to know, but a good teacher simply doesn't bring those things up until the proper time, or if they do come up in the course of discussing another matter, explains only what is necessary and that it isn't yet the proper time for the rest. One should be very wary of anyone who presents themselves as an authority on spiritual matters but then resorts to vague hints and dodging questions.

[manonthepath]

Just who the fuck are you to dictate the frames of interaction between people? Who are you to make general statements about and pass blanket judgments on peoples journeys that you can know nothing about? Only spiritual children and a few fools infer the entire cosmos from a few glimpses at the sun. You state a few obvious facts that can be gleaned from an hour's reading and think you are something special. I lament the lack of opportunity to interact face to face with you about a few things.



........................................ that you may find the growth you need!!!

[Rin]

Just who the fuck are you to dictate the frames of interaction between people?

This is a public forum. If you don't like people commenting on the way you conduct yourself, keep your conversations private.

Who are you to make general statements about and pass blanket judgments on peoples journeys that you can know nothing about?

Could you point out specifically where I did that?

Only spiritual children and a few fools infer the entire cosmos from a few glimpses at the sun... I lament the lack of opportunity to interact face to face with you about a few things.

Yes yes, you're very special and powerful and full to the brim with secret knowledge, we get it.

You state a few obvious facts that can be gleaned from an hour's reading and think you are something special.

Where did I claim to be something special? I just answered his question. In fact I specifically pointed out that what I was discussing was fairly mainstream knowledge, instead of dropping vague hints with insinuations of hidden knowledge behind them.

[manofsands]

According to most mainstream schools of Taoist thought, pre-natal jing is the jing you're born with. Most of these schools of thought maintain that it comes in a finite quantity, and as you expend it, you age and die. However there is also post-natal jing, which can be produce....

Thank you for clearing that up for me, I now understand the reference. I am still green in my Tao studies, though it resonates. manonthepath has been nudging me along this path in pm's and in the forums, which is why he probably felt comfortable doing so as a small comment here. It's too bad you and manonthepath couldn't talk in a more friendly manner on this. It seems you would have a lot to offer each other. I actually butted heads with manonthepath a few times early on. I believe it is because we are quite alike in many ways. I reflected my flaws off of him. Could this be the same for you?. I now consider him a friend with a lot of great information,.. who I still occasionally but heads with. But I respect him and his information. For whatever reason we judge another,.. there may be a good reason for it,.. but it distracts from the message. To be able to separate the two can be of great benefit.

Rin wrote:sounds like prostitution to me


I don't understand this either. I'm not picking. I really am trying to make the connections. I hate not getting "it".

I didn't write that, you're attributing a quote from Corvidus to me.

My apologeez,... it gets confusing editing the multiquote parsings

I used to get upset at the vagueness of teachers when I first started my studies. But I came to understand there were probably good reasons for it. I can think of 2, though I'm sure there are more.

But he isn't a teacher, and this isn't a school...

I personally believe everyone and everything is a teacher and that life is most certainly a school. Cheesy, I know... be it really worx for me.

[Rin]

Thank you for clearing that up for me, I now understand the reference. I am still green in my Tao studies, though it resonates. manonthepath has been nudging me along this path in pm's and in the forums, which is why he probably felt comfortable doing so as a small comment here. It's too bad you and manonthepath couldn't talk in a more friendly manner on this. It seems you would have a lot to offer each other. I actually butted heads with manonthepath a few times early on. I believe it is because we are quite alike in many ways. I reflected my flaws off of him. Could this be the same for you?. I now consider him a friend with a lot of great information,.. who I still occasionally but heads with. But I respect him and his information. For whatever reason we judge another,.. there may be a good reason for it,.. but it distracts from the message. To be able to separate the two can be of great benefit.

Glad I could help. I'm certainly no authority on Taoism myself, but I find the practical side (namely, Tai Chi and Qi Gong) complements my other practices perfectly, and I'm also very fond of Taoist philosophy - it has an open, free-flowing, poetic aspect which is rare in most other schools of mysticism.

As for the rest, I'd like to believe I could get along with all fellow spiritual practitioners and I make an effort to do so, in reality however, it just doesn't seem to work out that way. When I feel that someone conducts themselves in a manner which is out of line, then I get the urge to speak up. I freely admit that I do have a bit of an argumentative side which I need to do more work on taming, but in this particular case I don't think that's the issue at hand. Either way, it's nothing personal (it can't really be, on the internet, by definition).

My apologeez,... it gets confusing editing the multiquote parsings

No worries, I've made the same mistake before.

I personally believe everyone and everything is a teacher and that life is most certainly a school. Cheesy, I know... be it really worx for me.

I understand where you're coming from in a more general sense, but I was speaking more specifically within the context of this website and the public conversations that takes place here. The whole idea of a forum is to provide a place for the free and open exchange of ideas, outside of the more structured context of a school or teacher > student relationship.