Beginning Psionics?

[crazyfez]

Hello everyone,

I am interested in psionics as a system to create change in accordance with will, that is, magic(k), but I have a few questions as a noobish beginner. If anyone could help with these, I would be highly thankful.

a) Is it possible to construct a psionics machine entirely out of paper with ink printed on it? (like a design I print out from the internet)

b) What texts should I read as to this system? I have been reading through Uncle Chuckie's texts, but I find them a bit violent (make that extremely violent)

(NB: If you suggest texts, ensure that they are free. I have no money to spend (literally none. parents don't give me pocket money [happyface] ))

Thanks in advance!

[Desecrated]

Isn't it pretty much like everything else. the more effort you put in to it the more results you get. Printing on in paper seems like a cheap solution and you'll probably get a cheap result in the beginning.

[Shinichi]

Please don't take Chuckie too seriously. There's this thing we call "fluff," and most of the time he's covered in it from head to toe. I've practiced Psionics for years, and not once have I bothered to use any of his work.

The Dynamic Psi and Psi Articles boards over on Veritas have a lot of information for you to start with, as does the Shifted Perspectives Articles. My own recently posted work, Fundamental Development, was originally the first section of training for my own system of Psionics before I tweaked the practices a little to make them useful to everyone.

Something you need to understand about Psionics is that you don't need any machines or technology.You don't need any paper or ink, no sigils or seals, no incantations or spells. It's your own internal ability, directly applied via awareness, intent and concentration. You don't need to learn Energy Manipulation like some do (including myself, though mainly for my other practices), though it's useful. You don't need to learn Visualization, and in fact it hurts you if you learn it the wrong way (that goes for any other systems of metaphysics, too). Psi is very different paradigm from most of the rest of the occult world, and it's really all about developing your self and cultivating certain skills along the way.



~:Shin:~

[Rin]

Psi is very different paradigm from most of the rest of the occult world, and it's really all about developing your self and cultivating certain skills along the way.

What makes you say that? I've always seen psionics as the exact opposite - focused almost entirely on training certain skills (psychokinesis and clairvoyance primarily) but lacking any of the well rounded cultivation which is necessary for continual advancement in those skills, which is why it's practitioners never seem to make any major progress past the early stages of spinning paper wheels and maybe a bit of remote viewing - they focus entirely on training certain abilities, but doing so doesn't improve, beyond a certain, very early point, the prerequisite skills which allow those abilities to function. I'm not criticizing, just curious on your perspective, if you feel like expanding on it.

[Shinichi]

It's because a lot of people don't separate the Theory (as studied by Parapsychology and so on) and the Practice, but there's a certain generational shift that'll fix that in the coming years I think. Psionics is still very young, as is some of its better students.

Theoretically, the whole of Psionics can be divided into just two groups of skill: Passive Psi (Scanning) and Active Psi (Kinesis). Almost everything else, perhaps with the exception of Constructs in certain circumstances, is just some application of those two skills.

Practically, both Passive and Active Psi have certain prerequisites. Those who focus on these prerequisites tend to achieve the most development, because they establish a foundation upon which other skills can be developed more extensively.

A lot of people do still tend to focus on individual skills, and those people do tend to stunt their own development, but that is not what I consider Psionics proper precisely because it doesn't properly develop ones psychic capacity. Even those who are born with certain talents must put in the training necessary to control themselves, and that is why I consider things like Grounding and Centering to be more than just general skills. Anyone who approaches Psychic Development seriously while neglecting Personal Development either will not get very far, or they will regret it once they do and find they have no control.

And having once been a sensitive with no control, let me assure you that it very thoroughly sucks.



~:Shin:~

[Rin]

A lot of people do still tend to focus on individual skills, and those people do tend to stunt their own development, but that is not what I consider Psionics proper precisely because it doesn't properly develop ones psychic capacity.

I guess I've just had the poor luck of only encountering people practicing psionics who fall into this category. It's good to know that there are people out there in the psi community who understand the necessity of fundamental internal development :p

Although I have to confess I'm confused. At first I thought you were a hermetic practitioner, then you started talking about Asatru and norse cosmology, and now it's psionics. Just out of curiosity, exactly what do you practice/believe, if you don't mind my asking?


And I also have to admit, when I find myself wondering what a complete psionic system of training would look like, it ends up more or less being the same as IIH, just stripped of the basic hermetic/tantric terminology it's couched in. Terminology aside, how much more nondenominational can a system of training get? I think psionics (and parapsychology) are doing themselves a great disservice by trying to start from the ground up instead of building on several thousand years worth of preexisting psycho-spiritual training and knowledge. I think they're so caught up in trying to escape the cultural trapping of the various pre-existing traditions that they throw the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak.

A good example is parapsychology performing studies using the general population, instead of focusing on practitioners of psycho-spiritual disciplines. I understand that there's a stigma within the scientific community which they feel they're avoiding, but that stigma isn't going to go away until they can provide visible, demonstrable and repeatable evidence of the relevant phenomena, and they're never going to get anywhere beyond statistical fluctuations without using trained practitioners. Granted, trained practitioners willing to play lab rat are hard to find, but until they make the effort to look, or train someone themselves, the field is never going to make the progress it needs to break into mainstream scientific thought. I know some have made an effort (Radin), but even he only uses practitioners of generic quiet sitting meditation, not those trained in more advanced psycho-spiritual cultivation.

[Shinichi]

Although I have to confess I'm confused. At first I thought you were a hermetic practitioner, then you started talking about Asatru and norse cosmology, and now it's psionics. Just out of curiosity, exactly what do you practice/believe, if you don't mind my asking?

More than one person has declared me an enigma, and I tend to agree with them if only because I find it funny. But that is a difficult question to answer, since I'm not bound to a single thing as strictly as most people seem to be. The easiest answer I can think of is to simply say that my occult education and training has simply been very broad, and I have been exposed to many different things.

For a more complicated answer, I think it is safe to say that I am a long time student of the Hermetic Arts. The confusion here, though, comes from what Modern and Post Modern occultism considers Hermeticism to be. Over the past few centuries there has been an increased emphasis on schools or orders, and along with this has been an increased emphasis on the Judeo-Christian cosmology within Hermeticism.

It must be remembered that the Hermetic Arts are something much bigger and much broader than any one cosmology, any one school of thought or order of initiates, and they are most certainly much, much bigger and broader than any one initiate or adept.

As such, I am a student of the old way of things (as Bardon was, as many others are). I have had several teachers, both human and spirit, and I have learned from many different traditions. The magic that has spawned from such synthesis within me is thus uniquely mine, and if or when I ever pass on the totality of my Craft to my children or any future students, they in turn will make the magic uniquely theirs. That is the Old Way, and the way a Master-Student Lineage works. There are standards that must be lived up to, certain marks on the path and achievements that are practically universal, but every individual experiences them differently and gets to them in a different way. Every journey is unique.

And as for Teutonic Cosmology, that is simply where I am most at home. I respect all the gods and spirits of every culture and all the wisdom they hold, but the Teutonic pantheon is my native spiritual home. Odin claimed me, and while I still have Hermetic roots that have been invaluable in my exploration of the Teutonic Mysteries, I've made a point of not limiting myself to what others perceive as "proper" Hermeticism when learning this path. Like my patron, I value wisdom in all its forms.

And I also have to admit, when I find myself wondering what a complete psionic system of training would look like, it ends up more or less being the same as IIH, just stripped of the basic hermetic/tantric terminology it's couched in. Terminology aside, how much more nondenominational can a system of training get?

It can be very different, actually, primarily because they have different goals and Psionics focuses almost exclusively on the faculties of the Mental Body.

The IIH is a preparatory training manual. Its primary purposes are to establish Self-Realization through Elemental Equipoise in Step 8, introduce yourself to the spirit world through Journeying in Step 9, and achieving Divine-Realization through Invocation in Step 10. Everything besides that is just to help establish those goals in the healthiest or most balanced way Bardon knew. Those are biiiiig spiritual pursuits, too, but they are also just the introductory stepping stones in Hermeticism. The achievement of Self-Realization is the mark of the Initiate, and Divine-Realization is the mark of the Adept. It is these attainments (and nothing else, because you have either achieved something or you haven't) that separate the Grades in old school Hermeticism, but there are many other things to learn after. Evocation (PME), Incantation (Kabbalah), Alchemy, and many other Arts that are rarely spoken of. The IIH is just the preparation for those higher magical arts. The first of twenty-two.

Psionics, comparatively, is completely different. Rather than being a preparatory thing, Psionics is more like a metaphysical martial art, or a sport. The purpose isn't enlightenment, or working with spirits and the natural world, or discovering the mysteries of the universe. The primary purpose is just general psychic development. Like Karate or Tae Kwon Do focus on developing physical strength and skill, Psionics focuses on developing mental strength and skill.

As such, the system of Psionics that I formulated a while back (for a number of reasons) just has for "steps." The first one, slightly modified as I mentioned before, can be found in the contents of my Fundamental Development post. Step Two focuses on the development of Psychic Awareness (Passive Psi) and Psychokinesis (Active Psi). Step Three focuses entirely on Constructs, which too few people really understand. And Step Four explains a few basic applications (because, by applying the previous steps creatively, many things are possible) such as Healing, Future Selection, and Psychic Projection. And that's it, because when all the fluff is ripped away Psionics it's an extremely simple and practical craft.

I think psionics (and parapsychology) are doing themselves a great disservice by trying to start from the ground up instead of building on several thousand years worth of preexisting psycho-spiritual training and knowledge. I think they're so caught up in trying to escape the cultural trapping of the various pre-existing traditions that they throw the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak.

There are a lot of people that throw the baby out with the bathwater, but that's not what parapsychology was founded on. Parapsychology was born during the age of Spiritism, where some scientists thought "okay, the paranormal is real -- let's study it and figure out what it is and how it works." To this end, they did a fair job considering that for a long time they couldn't develop a full sense of the nonphysical side of reality. And after a lot of study, Psionics simply came about as the practical side, especially after the scientists dubbed the term Psi and people who had certain natural faculties started saying "I'm a Psion because I have that ability."

And when you consider the practical side, Psi does a good job of also distilling those thousands of years of training and knowledge into something more simple and easy to comprehend. All magical faculties or siddhis that involve receiving information (Psychometry, Telepathy, Empathy, Intuitive Clairvoyance, Divination, etc) can be performed through one Psi skill (Scanning, or Passive Psi) being applied to different tasks and circumstances. And all acts of manipulating the physical world (every type of spell, for example) can be performed through one Psi skill (Kinesis, or Active Psi).

Psionics is young and does have a lot of growing to do, and I'm not really sure it will ever be a spiritual craft, but it is a simple craft that does serve its own purpose.



~:Shin:~

[RoseRed]

And a lot of psyionic practitioners get quite pissed off when you add magic to the mix.

I studied psyionics for years before I ever began practicing magic. For me, developing and strengthening the inherent psychic skills I had was a wonderful prerequisite to the world of magic and spellcraft.

[Rin]

More than one person has declared me an enigma, and I tend to agree with them if only because I find it funny. But that is a difficult question to answer, since I'm not bound to a single thing as strictly as most people seem to be. The easiest answer I can think of is to simply say that my occult education and training has simply been very broad, and I have been exposed to many different things.

For a more complicated answer, I think it is safe to say that I am a long time student of the Hermetic Arts. The confusion here, though, comes from what Modern and Post Modern occultism considers Hermeticism to be. Over the past few centuries there has been an increased emphasis on schools or orders, and along with this has been an increased emphasis on the Judeo-Christian cosmology within Hermeticism.

It must be remembered that the Hermetic Arts are something much bigger and much broader than any one cosmology, any one school of thought or order of initiates, and they are most certainly much, much bigger and broader than any one initiate or adept.

As such, I am a student of the old way of things (as Bardon was, as many others are). I have had several teachers, both human and spirit, and I have learned from many different traditions. The magic that has spawned from such synthesis within me is thus uniquely mine, and if or when I ever pass on the totality of my Craft to my children or any future students, they in turn will make the magic uniquely theirs. That is the Old Way, and the way a Master-Student Lineage works. There are standards that must be lived up to, certain marks on the path and achievements that are practically universal, but every individual experiences them differently and gets to them in a different way. Every journey is unique.

And as for Teutonic Cosmology, that is simply where I am most at home. I respect all the gods and spirits of every culture and all the wisdom they hold, but the Teutonic pantheon is my native spiritual home. Odin claimed me, and while I still have Hermetic roots that have been invaluable in my exploration of the Teutonic Mysteries, I've made a point of not limiting myself to what others perceive as "proper" Hermeticism when learning this path. Like my patron, I value wisdom in all its forms.

Fair enough, and thanks for answering.

It can be very different, actually, primarily because they have different goals and Psionics focuses almost exclusively on the faculties of the Mental Body.

The IIH is a preparatory training manual. Its primary purposes are to establish Self-Realization through Elemental Equipoise in Step 8, introduce yourself to the spirit world through Journeying in Step 9, and achieving Divine-Realization through Invocation in Step 10. Everything besides that is just to help establish those goals in the healthiest or most balanced way Bardon knew. Those are biiiiig spiritual pursuits, too, but they are also just the introductory stepping stones in Hermeticism. The achievement of Self-Realization is the mark of the Initiate, and Divine-Realization is the mark of the Adept. It is these attainments (and nothing else, because you have either achieved something or you haven't) that separate the Grades in old school Hermeticism, but there are many other things to learn after. Evocation (PME), Incantation (Kabbalah), Alchemy, and many other Arts that are rarely spoken of. The IIH is just the preparation for those higher magical arts. The first of twenty-two.

Psionics, comparatively, is completely different. Rather than being a preparatory thing, Psionics is more like a metaphysical martial art, or a sport. The purpose isn't enlightenment, or working with spirits and the natural world, or discovering the mysteries of the universe. The primary purpose is just general psychic development. Like Karate or Tae Kwon Do focus on developing physical strength and skill, Psionics focuses on developing mental strength and skill.

As such, the system of Psionics that I formulated a while back (for a number of reasons) just has for "steps." The first one, slightly modified as I mentioned before, can be found in the contents of my Fundamental Development post. Step Two focuses on the development of Psychic Awareness (Passive Psi) and Psychokinesis (Active Psi). Step Three focuses entirely on Constructs, which too few people really understand. And Step Four explains a few basic applications (because, by applying the previous steps creatively, many things are possible) such as Healing, Future Selection, and Psychic Projection. And that's it, because when all the fluff is ripped away Psionics it's an extremely simple and practical craft.

But if the goal is the development of abilities, wouldn't it make much more sense to pursue a more well-rounded system of training which develops the astral and etheric bodies as well as the mental? Especially when it comes to "active" skills - the further away (in terms of density) the effort exerted is from the physical plane, the greater the effort will have to be to achieve the desired effect. Not to mention the many and varied benefits of having a healthy and well developed astral/etheric body. There's a limit to what can be achieved in active terms using the mental, or even higher astral, body, especially if you don't pursue self-realization - part of why Western magic had fallen so far in comparison to it's Eastern counterparts until Bardon came along - the techniques for developing and working with the lower astral/etheric energies had been lost or abandoned in favor of purely astral/mental work.

While you're correct that the primary goal of IIH is the establishment of the magical equipoise in preparation for self-realization and the pursuit of higher magic work, there are also techniques given for inducing basically any active/passive effect you could desire, if you train for it. It seems to be that someone who works through the first 8 steps, establishes the equipoise and then devotes their time to the exercises for expanding/projecting their awareness and mastering the various energies will be able to achieve far more, especially in active terms, than anyone training in a system which works purely on the mental level. IIH contains instructions for anything active or passive someone might want to achieve, and it isn't excessively ritualized or firmly lodged in the dogma or worldview of a certain culture or tradition.

Not trying to be critical :/ I just don't understand why a system attempting to achieve active physical effects would focus entirely on the mental level, as opposed to the denser astral/etheric levels, and why they would ignore such a rich resource which contains everything they want in one place.

[Shinichi]

Not trying to be critical :/ I just don't understand why a system attempting to achieve active physical effects would focus entirely on the mental level, as opposed to the denser astral/etheric levels, and why they would ignore such a rich resource which contains everything they want in one place.

Perhaps it seems confusing because you seem to be stuck in the beliefs of modern Hermeticism, particularly the idea of the Hermetic way being the best way. I'm not trying to be rude or condescending, but that's how your defense of Bardon comes off. Bardon is certainly effective, but he isnt the only effective thing out there.

Keep in mind that there is more than one way to do something. While the whole Hermetic "density" thing is quite effective, that's not the only way to manipulate the physical world. In fact, keep in mind what allows you to control those astral forces in the first place: your mental strength, and even more than that, your spirit's strength. I know of one occultist at least who doesn't believe in the existence of astral energy at all, who thinks all of that is just culturally programmed Analytical Overlay. His methods utilize the Mental and Archetypal planes only, and he is one of the most powerful people I have met. When I use an Incantation, I don't cause change through astral and etheric manipulation - a proper incantation utilizes the Mental and Archetypal planes in order to directly manipulate this world (Maya, Lethe, Wyrd, choose your label). I've discovered that Astral and Physical assistance (speaking the Incantation with the whole of your being) makes it a lot more potent, but it isn't really necessary so to say, because a good incantation works differently than the direct manipulation of Astral Forces.

And also do not forget the matter of cosmology. The IIH is deeply rooted in Neoplatonic Cosmology (as most of Hermeticism is), and not everyone prescribes to this. In the Norse Cosmology that I work with, for example, we don't work with the Four Elements at all. There are those like Thorsson who have tried to make an overlay for them, but the Elements are Greek, not Norse. In Daoist work, there is a completely different Elemental Key. As much as I like the IIH and as good as it is as a general introduction to practical training, it isn't really a universal training system. It's a training manual for, quite specifically and quite beautifully, Neoplatonic Magic.

Psionics attempts to do away with cosmology altogether. There's no symbols or riddles that you have to figure out in order to progress along your initiation because there is no initiation, it's just practical development all the way (with occasional initiatic side effects). It's true that the current incarnation of Psi doesn't directly account for the Soul and Spirit, but in an indirect way it kind of does. In the old days we only had consideration for Spirit, Mind, and Body. The Greek Psyche was both the Mental and Astral Body, and it was only with the influence of Modern Kabbalah that we separated the two and started accounting for Four things instead of Three. Psi, comparatively, only accounts for two things: everything that is Physical, and everything that is Nonphysical.

Besides all that, RoseRed is very right in pointing out that a lot of Psions are either outright Magi-Phobic or straight up arrogant in the belief of superiority they hold for their methods. A few years ago, I and a few others practically got kicked off of the PsionGuild forums when the admin made it clear that discussion of magic just isn't welcome there, and that is but one such experience. So despite the attempt to do away with mystical cosmology, there is plenty of dogma to spare in the Psi community. Some of us avoid that, but others just work with it and slowly make improvements.




~:Shin:~

[Rin]

Perhaps it seems confusing because you seem to be stuck in the beliefs of modern Hermeticism, particularly the idea of the Hermetic way being the best way. I'm not trying to be rude or condescending, but that's how your defense of Bardon comes off. Bardon is certainly effective, but he isnt the only effective thing out there.

I never said he was, but in terms of training which would allow someone to develop the kind of abilities you say psionics is all about developing, his system is certainly the most complete, effective and well rounded publicly available source that I've encountered.

I do believe that modern hermetic cosmology (omitting the cultural aspects, which can be supplanted by whichever cultural overlay you feel the most comfortable with) is the most accurate in terms of describing the various metaphysical forces/laws/realms/intelligences and their properties. Of course it isn't perfect, and a lot of it is just an attempt at mapping spectrums which lack clear barriers (ie. the division of the planes, or the elements, which I'll go into later), and I happily discard the aspects of it which I feel don't make sense or which contradict my personal experience, but I believe quite firmly that there is an objective reality to these aspects of the universe behind all of the different paradigms, and that the modern hermetic cosmology* comes the closest (which isn't to say close) to accurately explaining that objective reality in universal and scientific terms. I'm not generally a fan of Crowley (other than some of his poetry), but I think he said it quite well in "The method of science, the aim of religion."

What I'd ultimately like to see is a determined attempt to apply that maxim in practice on a wide scale, to have an experienced group of practitioners from various systems and cultural backgrounds work with an experienced group of physicists, neurologists and parapsychologists to perform experiments and deepen our objective understanding of the metaphysical cosmology (and so of course the physical cosmology) as much as possible (of course beyond a certain point, you're stuck relying on subjective mystical experiences, often hard to explain). A "grand unifying theory of metaphysics and spirituality" if you will (which I think would lead to, or possibly go hand in hand with, the same grand unifying theory of physical science which has been sought so long). I firmly believe that such a thing is possible, but since our current cultural climate isn't inclined towards seeking it I have to make do with a combination of my own experience and the teachings of what I believe to be reliable sources.

*I'd like to distinguish between "cosmology" and "mythology." When I refer to cosmology, I refer to the attempts to explain the most fundamental forces and laws which underlay our universe. We're talking about metaphysical cosmologies here, but the term can be equally applied to the current materialist/reductionist worldview produced by the scientific mainstream.

"Mythology," on the other hand, is the personification of these forces. So while I feel that what we're vaguely terming "modern hermetics" (as laid out in Bardon, The Kybalion, etc. as well as older texts such as the Emerald Tablet, The Corpus Hermeticum, Agrippa's Three Books etc) does the best job in the cosmology side of things, I think that the mythological side, the naming and anthropomorphizing of these forces into gods, spirits, etc. is more or less interchangeable. I don't believe Zeus or Ares, or Ra or Thoth, are any more or less real than Odin or Thor, or Ea and Marduk, or Yahweh and his Angels, and I think people should feel free to apply whichever mythology they are most comfortable with to their practice. Personally I prefer to avoid mythologizing too much, especially the closer we move to discussing divinity, which I like to view of in Daoist terms, but that's just a preference.

I'd also like to state that while it helps to have a good cosmology on which to base your theoretical understanding of what you're doing, I've known people to practice great systems with great results despite having an absolutely dreadful (and I don't just mean disagreeable or debatable, but straight up contradictory, baseless or logically impossible) cosmology/theory on which they based that practice. But they performed the practice correctly and it yielded it's results - just not for the reasons they thought it did.

Keep in mind that there is more than one way to do something. While the whole Hermetic "density" thing is quite effective, that's not the only way to manipulate the physical world.

Of course. I never said that I think other systems don't work (although every system has it's own set of goals), but I believe the same fundamental and objective mechanics underlay all legitimate metaphysical systems, even if the techniques of utilizing these mechanics are different. eg. Bardon's system of increasing the capacity and elasticity of the energetic body through repeated accumulation of various energies using mental control (until the energetic body can be felt and controlled directly) until enough can be accumulated at one time to be condensed and projected to achieve the desired effect, as opposed to, say, a Daoist system of cultivating energy over a long period of time within specific energetic centers using breathing and movement until it condenses and can then be projected instantly - two very different ways of ultimately achieving similar effects, but they both operate under the same universal laws.

Or, if you want to go metaphorical - there are many different ways of, say, losing weight. You can alter your diet, take up jogging, start practicing a martial art or yoga, lift weights - but they all result in weight loss through the same set of biochemical laws which govern the functioning of the body. They're all just different techniques of achieving a net caloric deficit.

In fact, keep in mind what allows you to control those astral forces in the first place: your mental strength, and even more than that, your spirit's strength.

Not necessarily. One of the most effective Qi Gong systems I've ever encountered relied entirely on movement and breathing - there was absolutely no mental component beyond "try to keep your mind calm and quiet," no visualization, no attempts to consciously move energy with your thoughts or imagination, just the right combination of breathing and movement (and sometimes not even movement), and the energy would go to work in the correct manner, achieve the correct results and eventually accumulate in the dantiens to become available for active use. Just as the mind can influence the astral/etheric, which can then influence the physical, so can the process work in reverse, which is the basis of much of Eastern Yogic practice and why I believe proper breathing and posture are so important.

As for "spirit's strength," you'll have to clarify what you mean by "spirit," since there are quite a few different usages for the term floating around.

I know of one occultist at least who doesn't believe in the existence of astral energy at all, who thinks all of that is just culturally programmed Analytical Overlay.

Whether he believes in it or not has nothing to do with whether it exists or whether it's involved in his working or not. I didn't believe in spirits when I first encountered one, but that doesn't mean I didn't encounter a spirit.

His methods utilize the Mental and Archetypal planes only, and he is one of the most powerful people I have met.

Powerful in what sense?

When I use an Incantation, I don't cause change through astral and etheric manipulation - a proper incantation utilizes the Mental and Archetypal planes in order to directly manipulate this world (Maya, Lethe, Wyrd, choose your label). I've discovered that Astral and Physical assistance (speaking the Incantation with the whole of your being) makes it a lot more potent, but it isn't really necessary so to say, because a good incantation works differently than the direct manipulation of Astral Forces.

Not necessary maybe, because there's a ripple down effect. As Above, So Below and all that - otherwise mental exertion wouldn't effect astral/etheric energies at all, and neither would physical exertion. But why cripple yourself by restricting yourself purely to directly exerting on the mental plane when working on the lower planes as well strengthens the result?

I'm also curious about how you define a "proper" or "good" incantation.

And also do not forget the matter of cosmology. The IIH is deeply rooted in Neoplatonic Cosmology (as most of Hermeticism is), and not everyone prescribes to this. In the Norse Cosmology that I work with, for example, we don't work with the Four Elements at all. There are those like Thorsson who have tried to make an overlay for them, but the Elements are Greek, not Norse.

The elements, like the planes, are just a way of dividing up a spectrum of energies. It's like a color wheel - which you can divide it into 6 colors, or 60, or 60 000, depending on how finely you divide it up. The spectrum is objective, but there are a more or less infinite number of ways to divide it and subjectively map it out. These attempts at division fall somewhere between cosmology and mythology as I defined them earlier, but I feel, like mythology, whichever system of mapping works best for the individual is fine. That said, I do think the longstanding and widespread use of the 4 platonic elements across vastly different cultures and periods in time is a testament to it's effectiveness as a system for mapping these energies.

In Daoist work, there is a completely different Elemental Key.

That's arguable - there's a widespread opinion that the 5 Daoist "elements" aren't elements in the way that the 4 Platonic elements are, that the 4 platonic elements represent states of substance, of being, whereas the 5 Daoist elements represent patterns of flowing change and interaction. I'm not enough of an authority to hold a firm opinion, but it doesn't matter all that much either way in light of what I said just above.

The 4 Platonic elements also make an appearance among the 8 trigrams of the Daoist Bagua symbol (which is at the top of this page actually :p ). But in the end, 4, 5, 7, 8 ,12, 27, however many, they're all just ways of dividing a spectrum so that it can be discussed coherently and interacted with tangibly.

As much as I like the IIH and as good as it is as a general introduction to practical training, it isn't really a universal training system. It's a training manual for, quite specifically and quite beautifully, Neoplatonic Magic.

I guess we just have to disagree there. I still feel that IIH is as universal as it currently gets, that it can be practiced alongside almost any system of metaphysical training and will only enhance it, and I feel this applies especially for something like psionics, which is already missing so much in terms of fundamental internal development. If the little hermetic/tantric/spiritual terminology bothers someone, they can easily ignore it, what matters is that if they practice the exercises properly they'll attain the results, and those results include everything you say psionics aims to achieve and so much more (which can be taken as far as the individual desires). If psionics is as results oriented as you say, then it's practitioners should be eager to take up a system of practices which offers precise instruction on how to achieve those results, instead of getting upset because that system uses terminology they don't like.

Psionics attempts to do away with cosmology altogether. There's no symbols or riddles that you have to figure out in order to progress along your initiation because there is no initiation, it's just practical development all the way (with occasional initiatic side effects).

You can't do away with cosmology unless you do away with theory entirely, which seems like it would be shooting yourself in the foot somewhat. You can certainly do away with "mythology," with the anthropomorphizing of forces into gods and spirits, but the moment you start attempting to explain a phenomenon, you're building a cosmology on the mechanics/forces/substances you use to explain it. That's what a cosmology is.

It's true that the current incarnation of Psi doesn't directly account for the Soul and Spirit, but in an indirect way it kind of does.

Wasn't the whole "dynamic psi" system on Veritas (which I believe I've seen you cite before, if not, I'm sure you can find it) based on the concept of the soul and it's power? And I know I've read more than a few psi articles which use energy work techniques as part of their method, even discussions of "psi energy" and attempts to explain it's nature, correlate it to other scientific or metaphysical energies, etc.

In the old days we only had consideration for Spirit, Mind, and Body. The Greek Psyche was both the Mental and Astral Body, and it was only with the influence of Modern Kabbalah that we separated the two and started accounting for Four things instead of Three. Psi, comparatively, only accounts for two things: everything that is Physical, and everything that is Nonphysical.

Which is just a simplification of the spectrum, dividing it into 2 instead of 3 or 4 (or 7, or the various other numbers used). But the spectrum itself still has an objective existence. I personally feel that going down to 2 is an oversimplification, as it's a small slip from there to dualism, which then leads to all sorts of philosophical and theoretical problems - but if you can make it work, more power to you.

Besides all that, RoseRed is very right in pointing out that a lot of Psions are either outright Magi-Phobic or straight up arrogant in the belief of superiority they hold for their methods. A few years ago, I and a few others practically got kicked off of the PsionGuild forums when the admin made it clear that discussion of magic just isn't welcome there, and that is but one such experience. So despite the attempt to do away with mystical cosmology, there is plenty of dogma to spare in the Psi community. Some of us avoid that, but others just work with it and slowly make improvements.

Isn't that the same website run by a woman who sells "constructs" over the internet? I wouldn't worry about their opinion too much if I were you

As for the whole magic v. psi thing, the difference seems primarily semantic to me, especially when we're talking about a system like Bardon's. You could re-write his book to remove the word magic, the references to the more spiritual concepts in the theory section and the latter steps, rename the elemental energies, and you'd be left with... a system of meditative techniques which grant what you term active and passive psi. Which was my original point.

[Shinichi]

but I believe quite firmly that there is an objective reality to these aspects of the universe behind all of the different paradigms, and that the modern hermetic cosmology* comes the closest (which isn't to say close) to accurately explaining that objective reality in universal and scientific terms. I'm not generally a fan of Crowley (other than some of his poetry), but I think he said it quite well in "The method of science, the aim of religion."

There is most certainly an objective reality to the universe. The fun part is figuring out what it is, because not a lot of people seem to know, and those who do are usually smart enough to say that they don't.

And you're quote of Crowley is an excellent definition of Hermetics, and it is also an excellent point to explain the difference between Hermetics and Psionics. Hermetics is indeed the method of science applied to the aim of religion, it is an Art and a Craft that serves the purpose, almost exclusively, of spiritual evolution.

Psionics is the (on its good days) scientific practical development of psychic faculties and the study of how they work. On its bad days it's a jumbled mess, but on any day it has nothing to do with religion or spiritual development. Personal Development certainly, in the sense of meditation, centering, grounding, and awareness. But nothing directly spiritual or religious.

What I'd ultimately like to see is a determined attempt to apply that maxim in practice on a wide scale, to have an experienced group of practitioners from various systems and cultural backgrounds work with an experienced group of physicists, neurologists and parapsychologists to perform experiments and deepen our objective understanding of the metaphysical cosmology (and so of course the physical cosmology) as much as possible (of course beyond a certain point, you're stuck relying on subjective mystical experiences, often hard to explain). A "grand unifying theory of metaphysics and spirituality" if you will (which I think would lead to, or possibly go hand in hand with, the same grand unifying theory of physical science which has been sought so long). I firmly believe that such a thing is possible, but since our current cultural climate isn't inclined towards seeking it I have to make do with a combination of my own experience and the teachings of what I believe to be reliable sources.

That will probably happen eventually, and it likely will reveal a lot of universal principles, but that sort of research often loses track of a lot of what goes in to those individuals methods. So you end up with all of the theoretical explanations and none of the practical methods, since that isn't what they are looking for. That sort of thing will probably also go a lot better after people figure out what Consciousness is.

Or, if you want to go metaphorical - there are many different ways of, say, losing weight. You can alter your diet, take up jogging, start practicing a martial art or yoga, lift weights - but they all result in weight loss through the same set of biochemical laws which govern the functioning of the body. They're all just different techniques of achieving a net caloric deficit.

That's a very good way of describing core principles, but consider that different people still have different preferences and goals. So, comparing Hermetics and Psionics to martial arts:

Hermetics would be a big, deep, complex art like Taiji Quan. A lot of principles, a lot of internal things that you cannot see even though it sends you flying across the room. Psionics is like Boxing -- a few simple, easy to understand, easily applied principles that don't take you long to learn, and helps you kick butt when you need to.

So is Taiji superior to Boxing? Maybe. It's certainly a lot more complicated. But even with all of its complexities, an excellent Boxer can still kick the ass of even a decent Taiji student. Why? Because it's the practitioner that makes the practice great.

As for "spirit's strength," you'll have to clarify what you mean by "spirit," since there are quite a few different usages for the term floating around

Consciousness. The part of you that exists on the Celestial Plane. Spirit, Mind, Soul, Body. Or Consciousness, Mind, Energy Body, and Physical Body. However you wish to label it all, the "spirit" part is what I consider the highest part of the microcosmic "spectrum," as you put it.

Whether he believes in it or not has nothing to do with whether it exists or whether it's involved in his working or not.

I thought that for a while to, and I'm a major fan of the whole "just because you don't believe in something doesn't mean it isn't there" thing. But, I've attempted to Clairvoyantly read the way his magic works, and he really does do things differently. It isn't a trickle down effect, he bypasses things instead.

It's the difference between Holistic Magic (where the whole is used) and Transcendental Magic (where the higher parts over rules the lower parts). He wouldn't really call what he does Transcendental, and sometimes it really isn't. I don't think there is a label for what he does, since he effectively created his own system (and indirectly inspired me to do the same), but what he does has no need for energy manipulation.

Powerful in what sense?

In the sense that he is one of only a few people that I've known who is capable of throwing around real magical power, doing the sort of things that would make an ordinary persons head spin. The only other people I have known who can do what he can do are considered competent and sometimes high ranking Initiates or Adepts in their schools of thought.

Not necessary maybe, because there's a ripple down effect. As Above, So Below and all that - otherwise mental exertion wouldn't effect astral/etheric energies at all, and neither would physical exertion. But why cripple yourself by restricting yourself purely to directly exerting on the mental plane when working on the lower planes as well strengthens the result?

I'm also curious about how you define a "proper" or "good" incantation.

Incantation works differently than other forms of magic, and there's a reason Bardon didn't speak of it until the third book. It comes back to that idea of Transcendental stuff. There is a Higher power over ruling a Lower power. Sometimes there is a trickle down effect, sometimes there isn't, and that depends entirely on the nature of what you are doing. There's no crippling or restricting because there's simply no need for a mediator, which is part of what I define as a "good" incantation. To borrow my Norse terminology -- the Runes are what Wyrd is made of, so by utilizing a Runic Incantation, you are directly bending Wyrd to your Will and causing direct change. As Above, So Below, yes. But in this case, there's no need for an in between, or for manipulating both at the same time. When you use an Incantation correctly, you change the Above and the Below directly obeys. I'm not sure how else to explain that presently.

It's like in The Matrix when Neo said "Stop" and the bullets froze in mid air. His..."spiritual authority," so to say, over The Matrix is what made the bullets obey. All he had to do was say the right thing in the right authoritative tone, and The Matrix did what he said. That was a type of Incantation, I suppose you could say, and one that I used myself once when I was almost in a wreck. There was a storm and a car stopped in front of me, so I slammed on my breaks. Instead of stopping, my car slid forward on the wet pavement, and before I ended up in a wreck I let go of the wheel, focused everything I had and shouted "stop!" with so much force that my car not only (instantly) stopped sliding but the engine also stopped running at the same time. At first I thought I hit the car in front of me, but when I looked up I was still several feet away. There was no energy manipulation and no trickle down effect, just force of will and spiritual authority, and a communication into the universe of what I wanted. In this case it was very simple, and all I had to say was a single word from my native language of simple English.

As for complete definitions, that's more difficult and extensive because there's more than one type of Incantation (Formulas, individual Words, and Poetry being my favorite three). I have found what Bardon and others of his time called Qabbalistic Formulas to be among the most potent, though I only know a couple of those.

If psionics is as results oriented as you say, then it's practitioners should be eager to take up a system of practices which offers precise instruction on how to achieve those results, instead of getting upset because that system uses terminology they don't like.

There is a reason that I keep saying that Psionics is young. Maturity will come with time. Hopefully.

Besides that, though, you keep insisting on the universalism of Hermetics and the IIH in particular. I certainly agree that certain principles are sort of universal, but universalism itself is not always wise because there are differences between paradigms that are sometimes important.

Taiji Quan and Brazilian Jiujitsu are very different martial arts, sometimes utilizing very different principles while at other times utilizing the exact same principles. You can focus on the similarities and make a call for universalism, but in doing so you overlook the many nuances that make them two completely different arts. The IIH is a good system, and I've learned a lot from it, but there are many things in it that I just don't need to know for the work that I am presently doing. I don't need to master the Neoplatonic Elements, though I may do that work someday. I have no use for Automatic Writing, or several other things in the book.

So yes, it is a complete system of practices that offers precise instructions on how to achieve certain results. But it is not universal, as very few things are.

Wasn't the whole "dynamic psi" system on Veritas (which I believe I've seen you cite before, if not, I'm sure you can find it) based on the concept of the soul and it's power? And I know I've read more than a few psi articles which use energy work techniques as part of their method, even discussions of "psi energy" and attempts to explain it's nature, correlate it to other scientific or metaphysical energies, etc.

Kobok does use the term Soul, and funnily enough a lot of people refuse to do his training simply for that reason. I just tend to use the term Consciousness instead, since that's the common contemporary word for what makes Psi work.

As for articles and energy work, yeah. There's more than one method of Psionics floating around, just like there's more than one method of Hermetics floating around.

Which is just a simplification of the spectrum, dividing it into 2 instead of 3 or 4 (or 7, or the various other numbers used). But the spectrum itself still has an objective existence. I personally feel that going down to 2 is an oversimplification, as it's a small slip from there to dualism, which then leads to all sorts of philosophical and theoretical problems - but if you can make it work, more power to you.

Spectrum is a good word for it, but this sort of terminology is born more from the modern science of it than my opinion of it. Physics can study anything that is Physical, but things like Psi cannot be studied "directly" via Physics because it is Metaphysical. So, scientifically, there's a division between Physical and Nonphysical, though the general scientific community isn't fully on board with it yet.

Things like dualism are another problem entirely.

As for the whole magic v. psi thing, the difference seems primarily semantic to me, especially when we're talking about a system like Bardon's. You could re-write his book to remove the word magic, the references to the more spiritual concepts in the theory section and the latter steps, rename the elemental energies, and you'd be left with... a system of meditative techniques which grant what you term active and passive psi. Which was my original point.

And it is a good system of techniques, but not all of those techniques are relevant to Psionics, which is my original point.

Psions don't need to learn the Elements at all. Via Kinesis they can be Hotter, Lighter, Colder, Heavier, or any other Quality of the Elements simply by focusing on the Quality. Psions don't need to master the Vital Force in order to heal themselves or others, they can simply make a Construct that works on the patients body and anything else to help the body heal itself. Most Psions don't need to learn how to make Elementals, Larvae, Phantoms, and Elementaries, because all of them are just different types of Constructs. Most Psions don't properly develop Clairvoyance, Clairaudience, and Clairsentience, but can still receive information metaphysically via Scanning, and can still achieve many of the same results doing so.

If your purpose is Self-Realization and Divine-Realization via the methods and philosophies of Neoplatonic Magic, then the IIH is by far superior to anything else publicly available. But for general psychic development there are other things that are probably more useful, and Psionics is among them. Not to mention that Bardon's work is purposefully difficult for those who prefer Power over Wisdom, though not many seem to notice that.

They're just different things with different purposes.



~:Shin:~

[Rin]

There is most certainly an objective reality to the universe. The fun part is figuring out what it is, because not a lot of people seem to know, and those who do are usually smart enough to say that they don't.

And you're quote of Crowley is an excellent definition of Hermetics, and it is also an excellent point to explain the difference between Hermetics and Psionics. Hermetics is indeed the method of science applied to the aim of religion, it is an Art and a Craft that serves the purpose, almost exclusively, of spiritual evolution.

Psionics is the (on its good days) scientific practical development of psychic faculties and the study of how they work. On its bad days it's a jumbled mess, but on any day it has nothing to do with religion or spiritual development. Personal Development certainly, in the sense of meditation, centering, grounding, and awareness. But nothing directly spiritual or religious.

I'm not sure you can separate one from the other entirely. They're like biology and chemistry, or math and physics, intrinsically tied together by definition. even the most purely spiritual system will result in the development of some level of power, and even a system based entirely on the attainment of power will result in a level of spiritual development. Granted every system has it's place along that spectrum, but they're still working in the same ballpark, and it could be argued (although that would be another debate entirely) that to attempt to entirely ignore one will be detrimental to the development of the other.

That will probably happen eventually, and it likely will reveal a lot of universal principles, but that sort of research often loses track of a lot of what goes in to those individuals methods. So you end up with all of the theoretical explanations and none of the practical methods, since that isn't what they are looking for. That sort of thing will probably also go a lot better after people figure out what Consciousness is.

But that's my point, they should be looking for it. Anyway, hopefully it comes about some day, but I try to avoid making predictions about the future. If the study of history has taught me one thing, it's that our predictions of the future are almost universally incorrect.

That's a very good way of describing core principles, but consider that different people still have different preferences and goals. So, comparing Hermetics and Psionics to martial arts:

Hermetics would be a big, deep, complex art like Taiji Quan. A lot of principles, a lot of internal things that you cannot see even though it sends you flying across the room. Psionics is like Boxing -- a few simple, easy to understand, easily applied principles that don't take you long to learn, and helps you kick butt when you need to.

So is Taiji superior to Boxing? Maybe. It's certainly a lot more complicated. But even with all of its complexities, an excellent Boxer can still kick the ass of even a decent Taiji student. Why? Because it's the practitioner that makes the practice great.

I would argue that psionics, at least in it's current state, is less like boxing and more like standing in one spot hitting a punching bag over and over. Sure you're swinging your arm and hitting something, and your arm will probably get a bit stronger, but it never moves beyond that, and getting in the ring with a real boxer who's undergone proper training and well rounded physical development would result in a quick ass kicking.

Maybe boxing is what it aims to be, but boxing is more than punching - psionics is going to need to be about more than dabbling with remote viewing and spinning paper wheels and creating unverifiable constructs all day before it becomes a system which can take anyone anywhere.

Consciousness. The part of you that exists on the Celestial Plane. Spirit, Mind, Soul, Body. Or Consciousness, Mind, Energy Body, and Physical Body. However you wish to label it all, the "spirit" part is what I consider the highest part of the microcosmic "spectrum," as you put it.

Sounds like we're working with the same definition, just had to be sure.

In the sense that he is one of only a few people that I've known who is capable of throwing around real magical power, doing the sort of things that would make an ordinary persons head spin. The only other people I have known who can do what he can do are considered competent and sometimes high ranking Initiates or Adepts in their schools of thought.

Could you give me an example? I'm just trying to get a picture of what this guy is practicing and what it's achieving for him.

Incantation works differently than other forms of magic, and there's a reason Bardon didn't speak of it until the third book. It comes back to that idea of Transcendental stuff. There is a Higher power over ruling a Lower power. Sometimes there is a trickle down effect, sometimes there isn't, and that depends entirely on the nature of what you are doing. There's no crippling or restricting because there's simply no need for a mediator, which is part of what I define as a "good" incantation. To borrow my Norse terminology -- the Runes are what Wyrd is made of, so by utilizing a Runic Incantation, you are directly bending Wyrd to your Will and causing direct change. As Above, So Below, yes. But in this case, there's no need for an in between, or for manipulating both at the same time. When you use an Incantation correctly, you change the Above and the Below directly obeys. I'm not sure how else to explain that presently.

It's like in The Matrix when Neo said "Stop" and the bullets froze in mid air. His..."spiritual authority," so to say, over The Matrix is what made the bullets obey. All he had to do was say the right thing in the right authoritative tone, and The Matrix did what he said. That was a type of Incantation, I suppose you could say, and one that I used myself once when I was almost in a wreck. There was a storm and a car stopped in front of me, so I slammed on my breaks. Instead of stopping, my car slid forward on the wet pavement, and before I ended up in a wreck I let go of the wheel, focused everything I had and shouted "stop!" with so much force that my car not only (instantly) stopped sliding but the engine also stopped running at the same time. At first I thought I hit the car in front of me, but when I looked up I was still several feet away. There was no energy manipulation and no trickle down effect, just force of will and spiritual authority, and a communication into the universe of what I wanted. In this case it was very simple, and all I had to say was a single word from my native language of simple English.

As for complete definitions, that's more difficult and extensive because there's more than one type of Incantation (Formulas, individual Words, and Poetry being my favorite three). I have found what Bardon and others of his time called Qabbalistic Formulas to be among the most potent, though I only know a couple of those.

Gotcha.

Besides that, though, you keep insisting on the universalism of Hermetics and the IIH in particular. I certainly agree that certain principles are sort of universal, but universalism itself is not always wise because there are differences between paradigms that are sometimes important.

Taiji Quan and Brazilian Jiujitsu are very different martial arts, sometimes utilizing very different principles while at other times utilizing the exact same principles. You can focus on the similarities and make a call for universalism, but in doing so you overlook the many nuances that make them two completely different arts.

I don't really think that's a valid comparison, Taiji and Jiujitsu are established arts with long traditions coming from very different cultural backgrounds, where psionics is, as you said, in it's infancy, akin to an attempt to build a new martial art from scratch based on scientific study of the body and of combat but refusing to use training from older and established arts to help piece it together. That's the part I don't understand - it doesn't have to be IIH, I reference it only because I believe it's the best and most complete system of training which is easily & publicly accessible. It could just as easily draw from yoga or tantra (Radin attempts to correlate the Yoga Sutras and parapsychology in one of his books, although not very well), or Daoist cultivation, or one of the myriad of other systems out there which have been demonstrated to grant their practitioners the abilities people working with psionics are trying to develop. I'm just saying that what psionics is trying to create is already out there, there's no need to build from the ground up, and in attempting to do so it's missing the core of why those systems work in the first place.

So yes, it is a complete system of practices that offers precise instructions on how to achieve certain results. But it is not universal, as very few things are.

Universal in the sense that it isn't bound to a specific cultural or religious paradigm and can be practiced alongside almost any other system of spiritual/magical/internal/psychic/whatever development and only enhance that system.

Spectrum is a good word for it, but this sort of terminology is born more from the modern science of it than my opinion of it. Physics can study anything that is Physical, but things like Psi cannot be studied "directly" via Physics because it is Metaphysical. So, scientifically, there's a division between Physical and Nonphysical, though the general scientific community isn't fully on board with it yet.

But where do you draw the line between physical and non-physical? Psi (or, for that matter, etheric energy) has physical effects which can be seen and quantified, even though it itself can't be seen or directly measured - but the same could be said for gravity.

Things like dualism are another problem entirely.

Not if you insist on a strict physical/non-physical divide. That's the definition of dualism. Something worth thinking about, but probably a topic for another discussion.

And it is a good system of techniques, but not all of those techniques are relevant to Psionics, which is my original point.

Is the prospect of balancing your personality to become a happier and healthier person along the path to psychic development such a terrible one?

The IIH is a good system, and I've learned a lot from it, but there are many things in it that I just don't need to know for the work that I am presently doing. I don't need to master the Neoplatonic Elements, though I may do that work someday. I have no use for Automatic Writing, or several other things in the book. ...

Psions don't need to learn the Elements at all. Via Kinesis they can be Hotter, Lighter, Colder, Heavier, or any other Quality of the Elements simply by focusing on the Quality. Psions don't need to master the Vital Force in order to heal themselves or others, they can simply make a Construct that works on the patients body and anything else to help the body heal itself. Most Psions don't need to learn how to make Elementals, Larvae, Phantoms, and Elementaries, because all of them are just different types of Constructs. Most Psions don't properly develop Clairvoyance, Clairaudience, and Clairsentience, but can still receive information metaphysically via Scanning, and can still achieve many of the same results doing so.

What's the huge difference between condensing the elements (which you could say are just energies charged with specific qualities, when you get down to it) to manipulate the physical plane, as opposed to the PK techniques used by psionics? As you said yourself, many psi systems use the concept of energy, and I imagine many more probably utilize it unknowingly. You acknowledge the existence and utility of these energies. So what does it matter, as long as it achieves the results?

Which brings me to my second point... where are the psions doing all of these things? When I was looking into the subject a few years back, I saw a lot of videos of psions spinning paper wheels, creating ripples in water, nudging pens along a desk. I read reports of them doing the same. But that's it. I never saw or spoke to anyone who'd been practicing for more than a year or maybe two (except for a few individuals who gave me great reason to doubt the veracity of their claims), never came across anyone who'd moved on from the 101 stuff in the old psipog articles (which have been around what, 10, 12 years now?). A lot of talk about things like "scanning" (how can someone "scan" if they haven't developed clairvoyance?) and "shielding" (shielding from what? with what?) and "constructs" and other concepts which were unverifiable, despite all the talk about the scientific nature of their pursuits. What I did see is a lot of people who learned a few basic tricks, practiced them over and over hoping it would help them move onto something bigger, become disappointed when it didn't, then give up on the whole concept. I never once saw evidence that people were going from using a psiwheel to, say, levitating a pen, or from moving a candleflame to lighting a candle. That they were moving on from scanning to telepathy or full clairvoyance, that they could practice at creating constructs until they can create one which can, say, effect a full healing, not just speed it up.

I understand that everyone has their own path to follow and I understand what psionics is trying to reach for. But currently the path that is psionics looks like a dead end to me, with a community so fixated on certain dogmas that they refuse to even look at older systems which have helped people attain what they're seeking and ask 'is there something we could take from this?'

I apologize sincerely if I come off as trying to evangelize, or ripping into the system you practice unfairly, that isn't my intent at all - I'm just baffled by focus on what seem like arbitrary distinctions to me, the determination to build from scratch on territory that has been covered for thousands of years by hundreds of systems. Why go blindfolded when there are dozens of maps out there? That's the part that confuses me, not the fact that people practicing psionics don't all drop their current pursuits and become dedicated hermetic magicians.

Not to mention that Bardon's work is purposefully difficult for those who prefer Power over Wisdom, though not many seem to notice that.

Not necessarily, it's designed so that the two go hand in hand, so that by the time someone can (although they don't necessarily have to) attain power, they also have the maturity to avoid abusing it in selfish or childish ways. That seems like a benefit to me, not a downside.

[Shinichi]

I'm not sure you can separate one from the other entirely. They're like biology and chemistry, or math and physics, intrinsically tied together by definition. even the most purely spiritual system will result in the development of some level of power, and even a system based entirely on the attainment of power will result in a level of spiritual development. Granted every system has it's place along that spectrum, but they're still working in the same ballpark, and it could be argued (although that would be another debate entirely) that to attempt to entirely ignore one will be detrimental to the development of the other.

Someone once said that Buddhism is God's trick on atheists, because they get to achieve spiritual evolution without believing in God. I have come to think that Psionics is another trick that God has given the atheists, because they get to achieve spiritual evolution without believing in spirituality. [wink2]

I would argue that psionics, at least in it's current state, is less like boxing and more like standing in one spot hitting a punching bag over and over. Sure you're swinging your arm and hitting something, and your arm will probably get a bit stronger, but it never moves beyond that, and getting in the ring with a real boxer who's undergone proper training and well rounded physical development would result in a quick ass kicking.

Maybe boxing is what it aims to be, but boxing is more than punching - psionics is going to need to be about more than dabbling with remote viewing and spinning paper wheels and creating unverifiable constructs all day before it becomes a system which can take anyone anywhere.

A lot of people approach it that way, but that isn't its full potential. And even so, calisthenics is a necessary part of Boxing.

As for Constructs, one that has been correctly created should be easily verifiable by anyone who has even a hint of skill in Scanning, which can be Hermetically considered a form of Clairvoyance. Something is either there or it isn't, so you can either perceive it or you can't. And I don't consider a Psi Ball to be a decent construct, for the record.

Could you give me an example? I'm just trying to get a picture of what this guy is practicing and what it's achieving for him.

There's probably a lot of things I could name, but most of it probably isn't wise to discuss publicly if only for the issue of privacy. As a single example, he is one of the strongest telepaths I've ever met.

I don't really think that's a valid comparison, Taiji and Jiujitsu are established arts with long traditions coming from very different cultural backgrounds, where psionics is, as you said, in it's infancy, akin to an attempt to build a new martial art from scratch based on scientific study of the body and of combat but refusing to use training from older and established arts to help piece it together. That's the part I don't understand - it doesn't have to be IIH, I reference it only because I believe it's the best and most complete system of training which is easily & publicly accessible. It could just as easily draw from yoga or tantra (Radin attempts to correlate the Yoga Sutras and parapsychology in one of his books, although not very well), or Daoist cultivation, or one of the myriad of other systems out there which have been demonstrated to grant their practitioners the abilities people working with psionics are trying to develop. I'm just saying that what psionics is trying to create is already out there, there's no need to build from the ground up, and in attempting to do so it's missing the core of why those systems work in the first place.

Brazilian Jiujitsu is barely over a hundred years old, which is much younger than the general study of Parapsychology. The people who made if famous, including the Gracie family, did get their start from Judo, but they ultimately made it something a bit different. Likewise, Taiji has several very different lineages and styles depending on who learned and modified it.

So yeah, you can borrow things and get great results. But the why of those results still aren't explained in doing so. Parapsychology is trying to figure out exactly what that "missing core" really is, and Psionics is the practical extension of Parapsychology, so naturally it's not all sorted out yet. When it is, which will take time and the efforts of a lot of people, Psionics will become something a lot more beautiful and the Scientific Community will have their Why's and What-For's.

Universal in the sense that it isn't bound to a specific cultural or religious paradigm and can be practiced alongside almost any other system of spiritual/magical/internal/psychic/whatever development and only enhance that system.

I can tell you from very personal experience that, past step three, it cannot be practiced alongside the Teutonic Traditions that I have delved into in the last couple of years. You can believe what you want, but Neoplatonic Cosmology is the root of Hermeticism and it is the heart and soul of the IIH. Past a certain point, you simply either accept the cosmology that Bardon and Hermeticism presents or you can't go much further. What Bardon teaches is very clear and precise, but it is also very different from what some others teach, and if you do two things at the same time like that you'll usually just end up confusing yourself and stunting your growth instead of helping it.

So no, the IIH as it is presented simply is not universal, even if many of the principles that it utilizes are. It is Hermetic, and a very specific lineage of Hermetic at that.

But where do you draw the line between physical and non-physical? Psi (or, for that matter, etheric energy) has physical effects which can be seen and quantified, even though it itself can't be seen or directly measured - but the same could be said for gravity.

I don't really think there is a clear line. More like they bleed over into each other up to a point, but at the opposite ends of the "spectrum," so to say, they are still very and clearly different.

Not if you insist on a strict physical/non-physical divide. That's the definition of dualism. Something worth thinking about, but probably a topic for another discussion.

There is a difference between duality and polarity, and I also didn't say that I insist on there not being an in-between (because the Teutonic Magic that I practice does have an Astral level, even if I call it by another name). I'm simply trying to explain that Psionics does not account for it because it does not have to, and also because the physical scientific theory part hasn't gotten that far yet.

Is the prospect of balancing your personality to become a happier and healthier person along the path to psychic development such a terrible one?

Nope. You just don't have to do that utilizing soul mirrors and the elemental key. If you recall my Fundamental Development essay, Introspection is included and Psychic Grounding is included as a way of regulating the Qualities that disturb ones internal balance or Fortitude. I just don't assign positive and negative values to those qualities by calling them virtues and vices, and I don't organize them into categories like Bardon does.

What's the huge difference between condensing the elements (which you could say are just energies charged with specific qualities, when you get down to it) to manipulate the physical plane, as opposed to the PK techniques used by psionics? As you said yourself, many psi systems use the concept of energy, and I imagine many more probably utilize it unknowingly. You acknowledge the existence and utility of these energies. So what does it matter, as long as it achieves the results?

It really doesn't matter that much, except that I'm trying to point out that Energy in the sense of astral and etheric forces is not necessary to get those results. They can act as a medium, certainly, but they themselves are not what causes physical change -- the person manipulating them is what causes the change.

When I do Macro PK, I don't charge the object with energy. I connect my Awareness to it and in doing so make it as much "me" as my finger is, and then via Concentrated Intent (not visualization, though Plastic Imagination can be a useful tool), I tell the object how to move or what Quality to take on (ie, Lightness, Heaviness). Then it either does it or it doesn't, depending on factors like whether or not I was Conscious enough of it, whether I concentrated enough, whether my Intent was clear enough, how big or small it is (note: extremely small things like the psi wheel are usually as difficult to move as very big things like a table or a person, for various reasons). Environment also matters, as does basic Physics, because you're not really violating the laws of Physics as much as bending them a bit by using different laws. Kinda like an air plane doesn't violate the law of gravity, it just goes fast enough that the wind lifts it up because of the wings. Manipulation, not violation.

You can do the same thing with the Elements or the Vital Force though, as long as you keep in mind that those things are not what is making the object move or the flame bend or the wind start blowing. You are, whatever you call your method. You, as a being of Consciousness and Volition. Things like the Elements or Vital Force can be extremely useful mediums depending on paradigm and circumstance, but they are not necessary to perform such things, because they are not what's doing those things in the first place.

Which brings me to my second point... where are the psions doing all of these things? When I was looking into the subject a few years back, I saw a lot of videos of psions spinning paper wheels, creating ripples in water, nudging pens along a desk. I read reports of them doing the same. But that's it. I never saw or spoke to anyone who'd been practicing for more than a year or maybe two (except for a few individuals who gave me great reason to doubt the veracity of their claims), never came across anyone who'd moved on from the 101 stuff in the old psipog articles (which have been around what, 10, 12 years now?). A lot of talk about things like "scanning" (how can someone "scan" if they haven't developed clairvoyance?) and "shielding" (shielding from what? with what?) and "constructs" and other concepts which were unverifiable, despite all the talk about the scientific nature of their pursuits. What I did see is a lot of people who learned a few basic tricks, practiced them over and over hoping it would help them move onto something bigger, become disappointed when it didn't, then give up on the whole concept. I never once saw evidence that people were going from using a psiwheel to, say, levitating a pen, or from moving a candleflame to lighting a candle. That they were moving on from scanning to telepathy or full clairvoyance, that they could practice at creating constructs until they can create one which can, say, effect a full healing, not just speed it up.

You're talking to someone now who has practiced on and off, actively, for seven years and who has been a natural psychic for over fifteen now (a little childhood incident happened to wake up a few things). So, um, hello. [yay]

Most of us who have moved past the basics (or ignored some of them entirely -- I happen think the psi ball and the psi wheel are both utterly ridiculous and a waste of time) tend to be very quiet online. Those like Kobok and Kettle over on Veritas speak up a bit, writing articles and stuff, but most of us have learned to just shut the hell up and stay away from the mass ignorance of the Online Energy Community...precisely because of the hordes of people that you yourself have encountered and speak of here. I'm the exception to this rule and usually speak freely, but that's mainly because Psionics isn't the only thing or even the main thing that I practice. I'm a Magician that knows Psionics, not a Psion that knows Magic. I also know Qi Gong, Yoga, and a number of other things, and it is the internal synthesis of all of these crafts that makes me what I currently am.

I understand that everyone has their own path to follow and I understand what psionics is trying to reach for. But currently the path that is psionics looks like a dead end to me, with a community so fixated on certain dogmas that they refuse to even look at older systems which have helped people attain what they're seeking and ask 'is there something we could take from this?'

Aye, there's a lot of that there, but don't mistake all the crap you see online for the whole of an art. Psionics is older than the internet, after all, and even those of us who are quite comfortable online simply tend to stay away from the Psi websites because of what was mentioned above. There's a reason that I'm on this forum and not on PsionGuild or PsiWarriors or a similar website. You guys are more fun to be around.

For myself and my own Psi methods, I did look to a lot of old systems, including Bardon. But Psionics is not Hermetics.

I apologize sincerely if I come off as trying to evangelize, or ripping into the system you practice unfairly, that isn't my intent at all - I'm just baffled by focus on what seem like arbitrary distinctions to me, the determination to build from scratch on territory that has been covered for thousands of years by hundreds of systems. Why go blindfolded when there are dozens of maps out there? That's the part that confuses me, not the fact that people practicing psionics don't all drop their current pursuits and become dedicated hermetic magicians.

It's fine, I know what you're doing and you don't have to apologize for it, because it's created a very worthwhile discussion for this thread.

But you must understand that it is the modern scientific need to build from scratch that makes Psionics what it is, or not even the need to build anything at all as much as the need to just figure out the essence of things. All of those thousands of years of systems that you speak of all had to start somewhere. Some borrowed a lot from neighbors and predecessors, some did start from scratch. Psionics is a modern attempt to find the core root of the metaphysical abilities that have been spoken of by all those systems for those thousands of years, and that's why the scratch is necessary. If you just adopt a lot of things, you may get a system that works, but you'll still not be much closer to explaining why it works in such a way that would satisfy a modern physicist. It's the why that drives the development of Psi as much as the how, and when Metaphysics does become public knowledge again (and it will, given a century or two more), it will be precisely because of this type of pursuit and not because of thousands of years of metaphors and meditations from other countries.

Not necessarily, it's designed so that the two go hand in hand, so that by the time someone can (although they don't necessarily have to) attain power, they also have the maturity to avoid abusing it in selfish or childish ways. That seems like a benefit to me, not a downside.

I don't really think it's a downside either, as it's a distinctive part of the system. But a lot of people who pick it up are looking for the power and not the maturity, and the design of the system does (intentionally, I believe) make it so that they won't get very far.



~:Shin:~

[Rin]

So yeah, you can borrow things and get great results. But the why of those results still aren't explained in doing so. Parapsychology is trying to figure out exactly what that "missing core" really is, and Psionics is the practical extension of Parapsychology, so naturally it's not all sorted out yet. When it is, which will take time and the efforts of a lot of people, Psionics will become something a lot more beautiful and the Scientific Community will have their Why's and What-For's.

What do you mean by "missing core?"



I'm also not sure I'd agree with the labeling of Psionics as a "practical extension of Parasychology," beyond the borrowing of certain terminology and a few basic techniques for testing abilities (at least not in it's common manifestation). Parapsychology is the scientific study of human phenomenon which either extend beyond the physical realm or which connect the physical realm to consciousness, and developed out of the attempt to apply the scientific method to the phenomenon being experienced during the spiritualism movement and occult revival of the 19th century. It's moved on since then to focus almost exclusively on subjects without any metaphysical training (which seems rather counterproductive to me), but it still includes subjects which the "psionic" crowd would be uncomfortable with (NDE's being one) or studies phenomenon produced through culture-specific systems (eg. Tummo).

Psionics came much later, and not out of parapsychological theory (which is scant, one of the reasons many in the scientific mainstream try to dismiss it as pseudoscience, despite the strength and replicable nature of it's results) or literature (which gave no practical techniques), but out of the New Age movement of the 60's, which lead to a widespread revival of interest in esoteric/meditative/yogic practices. Eventually literature evolved which offered to teach the abilities possessed by practitioners of these systems, but increasingly stripped of the cultural and mythological context, as this context lacked appeal for a lot of people initially and continued to lose appeal as it increasingly clashed with the rise of materialistic reductionism and atheism. There was a spread of "Develop your Clairvoyance/TK/etc." literature for people with this mindset, then in the 90's and early 00's came the internet, granting easier access to this literature, a place for people with the aforementioned mindset to gather, converse and publish their own literature and articles. It's within these gathering places (psipog and sites like it) that most of the modern techniques and terminology which we associate with the Psionics system developed or became widespread (including the "psionic" label - parapsychological literature refers to "psi phenomena," but doesn't use the terms "psionic" or "psion" that I've ever seen).

But that's all academic.

I can tell you from very personal experience that, past step three, it cannot be practiced alongside the Teutonic Traditions that I have delved into in the last couple of years.

Why not? What happens?

It really doesn't matter that much, except that I'm trying to point out that Energy in the sense of astral and etheric forces is not necessary to get those results. They can act as a medium, certainly, but they themselves are not what causes physical change -- the person manipulating them is what causes the change.

When I do Macro PK, I don't charge the object with energy. I connect my Awareness to it and in doing so make it as much "me" as my finger is, and then via Concentrated Intent (not visualization, though Plastic Imagination can be a useful tool), I tell the object how to move or what Quality to take on (ie, Lightness, Heaviness). Then it either does it or it doesn't, depending on factors like whether or not I was Conscious enough of it, whether I concentrated enough, whether my Intent was clear enough, how big or small it is (note: extremely small things like the psi wheel are usually as difficult to move as very big things like a table or a person, for various reasons). Environment also matters, as does basic Physics, because you're not really violating the laws of Physics as much as bending them a bit by using different laws. Kinda like an air plane doesn't violate the law of gravity, it just goes fast enough that the wind lifts it up because of the wings. Manipulation, not violation.

You can do the same thing with the Elements or the Vital Force though, as long as you keep in mind that those things are not what is making the object move or the flame bend or the wind start blowing. You are, whatever you call your method. You, as a being of Consciousness and Volition. Things like the Elements or Vital Force can be extremely useful mediums depending on paradigm and circumstance, but they are not necessary to perform such things, because they are not what's doing those things in the first place.

I would argue that the medium is essential, and that the major difference between the techniques is that one of them consciously utilizes these forces as a medium and directs them as necessary on a lower level of density, where they're "closer" to the physical result desired, thereby more easily and directly inducing physical effect, whereas the other connects directly on a higher level (and still through a medium, just a different one - or the same one with a different vibratory rate, if you want to get monistic about it) and then causes a "ripple down" effect through the spectrum of density to the physical. Of course conscious volition is the starting point, as it is with every intentional action, but there's no direct connection between that volition and the movement of the object - it's conveyed by the medium of the energies, whether intentionally or unintentionally. In the same way that a word stems from my desire to speak, which leads to the exhalation of air while I move my mouth in a certain way - if I was in a vacuum, it wouldn't matter how much I moved my mouth without the air as a medium to convey the vibrations of sound.

Ironically perhaps, I also think that what you describe as the 'psionic' method is ideal for those who have reached higher stages of spiritual advancement, as the resulting states of expanded consciousness and intensified focus are perfect for making that direct connection on the higher end of the spectrum of density - the higher bodies are more developed, and so can connect with greater ease and apply greater force, which will subsequently ripple down to create a greater result. On the other hand, working directly with denser energies is easier for those with a lack of interest in spiritual growth (although it doesn't contradict or counteract spiritual growth, except in terms of time expenditure), after all there are plenty of practitioners of systems of internal martial arts who have extraordinary energetic abilities, but spiritually have only what growth they've gained as a side effect of the necessary cleansing/strengthening of their denser energetic bodies and the time spent in a meditative practice - a fraction of the development which is attained by someone who devotes a similar amount of time to a purely mystical system. In fact these individuals are often no less egotistical, selfish, violent, etc. than the average person (the whole Mo Pai fiasco is a good example).

Anyway, my point is that at their core, the techniques don't seem very different to me. It's just a question of the layer of the spectrum on which you choose to make the connection and how specific a medium you choose to convey your intent.

You're talking to someone now who has practiced on and off, actively, for seven years and who has been a natural psychic for over fifteen now (a little childhood incident happened to wake up a few things). So, um, hello. [yay]

Most of us who have moved past the basics (or ignored some of them entirely -- I happen think the psi ball and the psi wheel are both utterly ridiculous and a waste of time) tend to be very quiet online. Those like Kobok and Kettle over on Veritas speak up a bit, writing articles and stuff, but most of us have learned to just shut the hell up and stay away from the mass ignorance of the Online Energy Community...precisely because of the hordes of people that you yourself have encountered and speak of here. I'm the exception to this rule and usually speak freely, but that's mainly because Psionics isn't the only thing or even the main thing that I practice. I'm a Magician that knows Psionics, not a Psion that knows Magic. I also know Qi Gong, Yoga, and a number of other things, and it is the internal synthesis of all of these crafts that makes me what I currently am.

Fair enough.

But you must understand that it is the modern scientific need to build from scratch that makes Psionics what it is, or not even the need to build anything at all as much as the need to just figure out the essence of things. All of those thousands of years of systems that you speak of all had to start somewhere. Some borrowed a lot from neighbors and predecessors, some did start from scratch. Psionics is a modern attempt to find the core root of the metaphysical abilities that have been spoken of by all those systems for those thousands of years, and that's why the scratch is necessary. If you just adopt a lot of things, you may get a system that works, but you'll still not be much closer to explaining why it works in such a way that would satisfy a modern physicist. It's the why that drives the development of Psi as much as the how, and when Metaphysics does become public knowledge again (and it will, given a century or two more), it will be precisely because of this type of pursuit and not because of thousands of years of metaphors and meditations from other countries.

But isn't getting a system that works an essential starting point to figuring out "how" it works? After all without the results, there's no phenomenon to study. And the best way to make something work is to look at how others have made it work in the past. Trying to build blindly, from the ground up, sets you back and then slows you down.

As for modern physicists, they aren't dissatisfied because older systems don't offer explanations which are compatible with modern science (in fact the compatibility grows increasingly as modern physics continues to butt up against mystical concepts), they're dissatisfied because they don't like those explanations, as those explanations contradict the materialistic/reductionistic/deterministic ideology which became firmly entrenched in the scientific mainstream in the period following the Enlightenment and has refused to budge (in fact it's actually grown with the rejection of mainstream religion over the last 50 years and the growth of the "skeptic" movement). This, combined with the fact that those open minded enough to try and bridge the gap tend to either be mystics with an amateur knowledge of physics which doesn't hold up under scrutiny, or vice versa, and the deeply entrenched stigma surrounding the study of certain topics, has lead to scientists digging their heels in instead of looking at the answers which are already out there and putting the pieces together.

Sadly, I don't think there's much which will change it except time (short of a group of adepts getting together and agreeing to play lab rat for 20 years, but that doesn't seem to be on the cosmic agenda :/ and even if it were, I wonder if society would be ready for the consequences). As an interesting parallel, we're currently seeing the slow development of a global understanding that criminalization is a poor way to deal with drugs and drug addiction and a subsequent movement towards harm reduction and decriminalization/legalization as a result of the dying out of older generations raised on drug war propaganda and certain deeply lodged preconceived notions about psychoactive drugs and the maturation of a new generation which was raised in an intellectual and sociopolitical context which allowed them to adopt a broader attitude towards the subject. What was unthinkable even 20 or 30 years ago (the legalization of marijuana in certain US states) is just accepted today.

I think in the same way, we're going to have to wait for the old guard, stuck in their ways, to make way for progressing new generations with a broader perspective on what is and isn't possible and the nature of reality, a less ingrained indoctrination towards materialistic dogma and an increasing interest in the metaphysical and the spiritual. I'm also quite sure that before we reach the point where these subjects become widely accepted and understood as part of the way reality works, we're going to have to go through a few rough upheavals as a society - it's just not going to happen with our current tendency to look to technology for all the answers, and personally I hope it doesn't happen until we have a massive socioeconomic overhaul with a move towards equality and empathy and away from our current plutocratic oligarchy. I'd like to think it will happen in our lifetime (after all, who didn't dream of being part of the effort to bring magic and metaphysics into the mainstream when they first started their training?), but I'm just not sure if that's either possible or desirable anymore.

I don't really think it's a downside either, as it's a distinctive part of the system. But a lot of people who pick it up are looking for the power and not the maturity, and the design of the system does (intentionally, I believe) make it so that they won't get very far.

I'm quite sure it was intentional - Bardon was purportedly incredibly hesitant about publishing the material as it is. But I think it works quite well, very much like what you said about Buddhism being a way to draw atheists towards spiritual advancement, people read Bardon, think "hey, I wanna be able to do this stuff," then by the time they get to the point of being able to (those who develop the discipline - it seems maybe 1/100 people who pick up IIH actually move past the first step, and maybe 1/1000 past the second or third, but motivation is hard without fellow students and a teacher), they're spiritually matured and quite likely to overlook developing the powers on the side entirely so they can continue seeking attainment, or the continue with a duel development. "Come for the power, stay for the spirituality"

It's fine, I know what you're doing and you don't have to apologize for it, because it's created a very worthwhile discussion for this thread.

Good to hear you get it, I love discussing these subjects and think debating with people who's viewpoints don't necessarily match my own is one of the best ways to expand my understanding, but I know I can get a bit verbose and argumentative when I get stuck into a good debate, and some people take it personally :p