Why I'm Leaving the Forum

[NLDSatanist666]

I could go really in depth with this post with lots of personal reasons and other fun stuff, but I'm going to make a long story short. I've basicly applied scientific scrutiny to my beliefs about gods, magick, spirits, Hermeticism and occultism in general and after much thought have decided to become agnostic about them. I don't think we can ever know if there's a god or if magick actually works or if the All is real. For every story where a spell worked really well or someone channeled a god and got good, factual information from it, there's a contradictory one. I think that until any of these things are proven to be real, the most logical intellectual position (for me at least) is to be agnostic about them. This isn't a magickal "rage-quit", as I've had some of the spells I've cast in my year of being an occultist work and some not work. Please note that I have nothing against people who believe in occultism. If you believe something and it works for you and that belief isn't harming anyone else, then great! Go for it! I just think that for me, agnosticism is the right intellectual stance.

I probably won't be coming back to this forum.

I don't intend to eschew spirituality entirely though. I've gone back to being a Laveyan Satanist (I used to be a Laveyan before I became an occultist) because I feel like it's a good philosophy for me to follow. Plus, I think ritual is fun even if you don't believe in that it will affect the outside world.

So yeah...see ya!

[Frumens]

What would make you believe in magic for sure?

[NLDSatanist666]

What would make you believe in magic for sure?

It depends on the definition of magic(k) being used, but generally some kind of repeatable experiment done in a controlled environment that showed that objectively showed magic was real using the scientific method would be enough to convince me. But I don't even know if such a test could be done. Many claims about magic(k) and the occult in general are unfalsifiable in the first place and thus can't even be tested scientifically.

However, I don't just apply this scrutiny to magic(k), but to all occult things, including but not limited to: Hermetic Cosmology, spirits, godforms, thoughtforms, souls, animism, telepathy, Higher Self, mass conciousness, psionics, reincarnation, spiritual alchemy, etc.

[Clockwork Ghost]

I don't intend to eschew spirituality entirely though. I've gone back to being a Laveyan Satanist (I used to be a Laveyan before I became an occultist) because I feel like it's a good philosophy for me to follow. Plus, I think ritual is fun even if you don't believe in that it will affect the outside world.

I agree - Atheistic Satanism sounds like a very good choice for you. Good luck in your travels. [thumbup]

[Frumens]

What would make you believe in magic for sure?

It depends on the definition of magic(k) being used, but generally some kind of repeatable experiment done in a controlled environment that showed that objectively showed magic was real using the scientific method would be enough to convince me. But I don't even know if such a test could be done. Many claims about magic(k) and the occult in general are unfalsifiable in the first place and thus can't even be tested scientifically.

That's already been done. It's called tummo. But instead of appealing to science, have you ever asked yourself why magic should need to be scientifically tested in order for your to believe it? You're falling into a naive but popular philosophical view called scientism. Is a judgmental voice in your head telling you that you have to grow up and stop playing make believe? If that's the case, please don't sell yourself short. Life is such a more vibrant, more fun, more magical place when you believe in magic. I don't want you to miss out on the fun! I also want to say, magic is real whether you believe in it or not, and understanding that fact gives you an advantage in this life and the next life.

If you're agnostic about magic, what to do think about all the stories I and others have told about our experience? Are you agnostic that we're all self-deluded or compulsive liars? Have witches been putting their lives on the line for thousands of years to uphold a tradition of wishful thinking? Have you heard the stories people tell about Enochian? What's happening to all the people on the AYP forum reporting kundalini awakenings? Where do you think all this comes from?

If you want to prove the existence of magic to yourself, you could practice clairvoyance or energy work until you reach the point where you have consistent perceptible results every time you practice. After about 15 minutes a day I was able to consistently feel and direct energy through my body while doing the middle pillar ritual.

Here are two videos that helped me believe in magic when I began learning about the occult:

[NLDSatanist666]

Here's my rebuttal:

What would make you believe in magic for sure?

That's already been done. It's called tummo.
I looked up tummo and it's apparently a type of meditation that can allegedly be used to change your physical body. Scientists have observed it being used to change the body temperature of the people doing this type of meditation. But just because one occultic thing turned out to be real, it doesn't automatically mean everything in the occult is real. Also, the brain is a powerful thing. It seems like it should be able to change your body temperature. This doesn't really seem like such a strange or "supernatural" thing to me.

But instead of appealing to science, have you ever asked yourself why magic should need to be scientifically tested in order for your to believe it? You're falling into a naive but popular philosophical view called scientism.

Most claims I've heard about magic(k) make it sound like it's something that should be detected using the scientific method. Therefore it should be scientifically tested.

If you're agnostic about magic, what to do think about all the stories I and others have told about our experience? Are you agnostic that we're all self-deluded or compulsive liars?

No. People can believe in things that may not necessarily be true without being compulsive liars or delusional. Millions of people worldwide believe in things that may not neccesarily be true, heck, even things that have been proven false and they aren't all compulsive liars or delusional. Also, coincidences that make it look like magic worked can happen. I think most stories about magic are anecdotal.

Exceptional claims require exceptional proof. If someone claims something exceptional, extraordinary or some other similar thing happened, they need exceptional proof or their claim can be dismissed.

I'm treating occult claims the same as religious claims. I may disagree with your claims but it doesn't mean I think something's wrong with you. I just disagree with the claims, that's it.

Have witches been putting their lives on the line for thousands of years to uphold a tradition of wishful thinking?

People have put their lives on the line for pretty much every idea and cause ever. Just because someone risked their life for something, it doesn't make the idea they put their life on the line for true.

Have you heard the stories people tell about Enochian? What's happening to all the people on the AYP forum reporting kundalini awakenings? Where do you think all this comes from?

I think the Kundalini stories are either placebo or symptoms of medical problems mislabeled by people who want to awaken the Kundalini. When you're told that you will feel certain things, more likely than not, you will. Placebo's a powerful thing. As for Enochian, remember, exceptional claims require exceptional proof. If someone claims something exceptional happened, they need exceptional proof to back it up or their claim can be dismissed.



If you want to prove the existence of magic to yourself, you could practice clairvoyance or energy work until you reach the point where you have consistent perceptible results every time you practice. After about 15 minutes a day I was able to consistently feel and direct energy through my body while doing the middle pillar ritual.

Here are two videos that helped me believe in magic when I began learning about the occult:

This video creates more questions than it answers. How do we know that's a real coal? How do we know that's a real stove? How do we know that the man in the video isn't wearing a transparent glove that the camera just didn't pick up on?

I googled "National Geographic Witchcraft" and I didn't find any stories about the picture. If this picture was so famous, then why aren't there stories about it as the top hits on a Google search? Also, the blue "energy" on the picture looks like it was a mishap from printing the photo. I think that the people who made this video are just making stuff up to legitimize witchcraft.

[Frumens]

I googled "National Geographic Witchcraft" and I didn't find any stories about the picture. If this picture was so famous, then why aren't there stories about it as the top hits on a Google search? Also, the blue "energy" on the picture looks like it was a mishap from printing the photo. I think that the people who made this video are just making stuff up to legitimize witchcraft.

Maybe it is a made up story. Or, maybe it isn't. I just wanted to share something that helped me believe in magic. You can explain away all the points I gave if that's what your bias is. That's why I think the photograph isn't famous as you'd like it to be. People have had much more intense magical experiences than that, but they're not on the front page of the New York Times. I did a bit of Google-Fu and found an image of the specific Nat. Geo issue that includes the picture. Remember, this was in 1979.

https://bookofshadowsandblessings.wordp ... rie-cabot/

Whatever you decide to believe in the end, the most important thing is to live happily. Best wishes.

[NLDSatanist666]

Whatever you decide to believe in the end, the most important thing is to live happily. Best wishes.

Thank you. Even if I may disagree with a lot of the things on this forum, I can't deny that I've been treated well for the most part by the people on this forum. I'm glad that people can discuss things here without starting massive flame-wars. And even if magic isn't real, I don't regret studying it as I've learned a lot and this knowledge could still benefit me somehow.

Thanks and best wishes.

[Haelos]

Most people want to physically "see" the magick to be proven of it's existence. Most magick doesn't work that way, and the stuff that does, a lot of people still wouldn't believe, even after seeing it themselves
.
A lot of modern scientific theory is proving more and more of what Hermetic masters have known to be fact for millennium. Maybe you just aren't studying in the right places?
I would still recommend you learn all you can about both magick and science, because no harm comes in learning. Then, you can take your own subjective beliefs and mold them into whatever you wish.

I don't measure the results of a single spell I perform without testing every plausible scientific possibility available to me. If I can disprove all the scientific hypothesis I can come up with, then it was a result of magick.

Technically, anything that you do on purpose (ie. with intent) is considered magick. Think hard about that before you solidify your beliefs.
Proving something is true in your own personal universe is far more important than believing the scientific consensus, which we all know has had flaws since the very beginning of its inception.
How many times has the scientific community come to us with so "heavily-supported facts," just for their theories to fall to pieces years later, when new information is presented?
Soon enough, I believe we will have technology that can achieve some of the same end results as the rituals we perform.

[Nahemah]

The 'Occult' is not all about religion and magickal practice does not have to depend on the belief in some kind of divinity, though of course, it can do, if the practioner holds religious beliefs, obviously. [lol , at captain obvious here [lol] ]

I hope you will stay, as we need folk of all persuasions and none, I am a Humanistic atheist, so , if and when we're talking labels I accept and wear that one quite willingly. [greensmile]

Yet, I'm a magickal practioner, have been so for most of my 49 years. I utilise ritual and ceremony as a method of subconscious/ unconscious alignment with my conscious self, as it's all about the psychodrama for me at least. That and the metaphysical philosophy and study of mind over matter/ the power of belief on cause and effect.

I accept also that all gods exist, simultaneously, as the power of belief and worship over time has empowered them and given them space to exist somewhere in this multi layered universe of ours, with it's multi layered reality tunnels and individual perceptions and so on...so meh.

God is dead, long live god.

Nothing is real, all is permitted.

93,93,93 or 23,23,23 or ...

Please do stay around.

You are your own god and demon, wrapped up in meat and skin, for another perspective. You can believe in yourself. [more captain obvious, but a bit more subtle this time, I hope...re: apotheosis and the self]

This is a narrative about me and I apologise for that, but I wanted to share it as I think you may be disillusioned by the prevalence of those who do hold particular belief sets and moral structures holding sway over conversations here, especially recently.

There is more to the World of the Occult than religion alone, so much more and spirituality is something we all possess, with the ability to develop it, whether religous or not.

Defining magick by terms of religion alone is a common mistake and it's a shame it is still being perpetrated in our community as the only justifiable validation.

Also: what Haelos said. [thumbup]

[Eremita]

Posting directly under Nahemah, in the hopes that her awesomeness will drip on me.

Phil Hine wrote in Condensed Chaos (words to the effect): You don't have to believe in spirit guides, gods, angels, demons, chakras, karma or any of a long list of such things in order to practise magic.

There are at least as many explanations as to how magic does, or even might, work as there are magical traditions.

Go if you must, stay if you will! See you round like a rissole. [crazy]

[NLDSatanist666]

If you're just using magic as a form of psychodrama, why call it "magic"? Why not just call it "psychodrama"?

[cyberdemon]

If you're just using magic as a form of psychodrama, why call it "magic"? Why not just call it "psychodrama"?

That's the spiritual/religious aspect.
There are many of us who make use of magick practically.

I must ask, and since you keep coming back to reply at least.. What is your preferred form of ceremonial magick to perform?

[NLDSatanist666]

I know you have many questions for me that I need to respond to. But first: why do you want someone on a forum about magick who:
1.) doesn't really believe in magick.
2.) doesn't really believe in other occult things like karma, gods, demons, angels, the three-fold law, mass consciousness, telepathy, psionics, curses, channeling, higher planes, etc. I understand and can say from firsthand experience that people on the forum have different ideas about these things, but I don't understand how not believing in any of these things isn't stretching it too far.


Thanks for clearing this up.

[Frumens]

I know you have many questions for me that I need to respond to. But first: why do you want someone on a forum about magick who:
1.) doesn't really believe in magick.
2.) doesn't really believe in other occult things like karma, gods, demons, angels, the three-fold law, mass consciousness, telepathy, psionics, curses, channeling, higher planes, etc. I understand and can say from firsthand experience that people on the forum have different ideas about these things, but I don't understand how not believing in any of these things isn't stretching it too far.


Thanks for clearing this up.

I don't understand why you expect to be excluded from the forum for doubting these things. We're a forum, not the Westboro Baptist Church.

The only bounds on free discussion are to help promote it. We at OccultForum.org realize that the occult community is itself as diverse as the rest of the world, and disagreements are inevitable. While the debate of subjects is allowed (and in fact encouraged), disrespecting fellow members is not.

[Haelos]

I know you have many questions for me that I need to respond to. But first: why do you want someone on a forum about magick who:
1.) doesn't really believe in magick.
2.) doesn't really believe in other occult things like karma, gods, demons, angels, the three-fold law, mass consciousness, telepathy, psionics, curses, channeling, higher planes, etc. I understand and can say from firsthand experience that people on the forum have different ideas about these things, but I don't understand how not believing in any of these things isn't stretching it too far.


Thanks for clearing this up.

Because what you believe doesn't matter to us. We're all here to learn and develop ourselves. You have your own opinion, that no matter how hard someone tries, the only one who can change it is you.
That won't stop us from sharing information and knowledge. It's your task to take what knowledge you wish from what we say.

It sounds to me like you're trying to make excuses to Not learn about a subject that you either don't understand well enough, or that frightens you.
There is no excuse to not learn, there are many excuses to not believe.

Just because you don't believe in the occult, doesn't mean you need to leave the forum. You're not required to interact with people, or post, or even be here in the first place, for that matter.
But if you find a subject that interests you, keep learning about it until you know everything possible about it, or else, what's the point?
There are many types of knowledge I don't agree with or believe in, but that doesn't stop me from learning about them.
I think Christianity is 100% spiritual slavery, from their very inception, but that doesn't stop me from learning their values and messages, or from reading the Bible.

You need to take your own thoughts from your subject material, don't let what others do and say influence your mind. Gain mastery over yourself. Almost all knowledge is subjective. The only thing that we can prove to be real, is ourselves.

[ultimafool]

Greetings, NLDSatanist666!

Just want to say that unless science changes its parameters, it will never be able to dis/prove the "realness" of magick or spirits, etc. Science is obviously a highly effective paradigm, but it has its limits.

Personally, I believe that science will be able to explain how magick works. Some would argue it already has. That's science's strength - the how. It has yet to shown any efficacy in the why because that is largely a matter of our subjective experience and this is the realm of philosophy, religion, occult and magick.

Magick used to be known as "The Art", and I find this an accurate way of looking at it. Think of it in terms of sports. We know it's possible to dunk from the free throw line, but not everyone can do it and even those that can don't succeed every attempt. Science explains how it's possible, but that doesn't mean everyone can do it well or at all.

Or look at it from the point of view of visual art. Once someone creates a piece, that's it. It's been done. Others can replicate it and might even fool the best experts, but the first one is the one and only and is unique. An act of magick is like a slam dunk or a work of art (ha!). Jordan could dunk and so could Dr. J, but they both had their own personal touch and made each dunk unique, every time. No one can replicate a specific slam dunk performed by either of these two or anyone else for that matter. They can come close, but can never match them exactly.

But, I totally understand where you're coming from and if you feel that this is the right path for you, so mote it be! Do what thou wilt and whathaveyou! [thumbup]

[cyberdemon]

Honestly!
This is just getting a little silly and a bit out of hand with everyone pointing you towards so many things. If you want to leave, you should have by now. Since you're still here I feel like some part of you at least wants magick to exist. Why don't you just perform a summoning or something "for the laughs" and see what happens?

[NLDSatanist666]

Sorry for the delay in my reply, I've been really busy with real-life stuff. But now I can respond to some of your questions/comments. After I do that, I will decide myself whether or not I want to stay on the forum and then I will state my decision and either leave or stay. I had some trouble with using the quote function, so I used quotation marks instead sometimes.

There are at least as many explanations as to how magic does, or even might, work as there are magical traditions.

I personally think that would be evidence against the existance of magic(k). If magic(k) exists, shouldn't everyone experience it the same and have a similar understanding of how it works? This is similar to the atheist argument that "there are so many religions; with so many different interpretations, it shows that no one really knows because of all the different interpretations."

I must ask, and since you keep coming back to reply at least.. What is your preferred form of ceremonial magick to perform?

[/quote]

I haven't practiced any old ceremonial magick, so I can't really answer that question.


"But if you find a subject that interests you, keep learning about it until you know everything possible about it, or else, what's the point?
There are many types of knowledge I don't agree with or believe in, but that doesn't stop me from learning about them.
I think Christianity is 100% spiritual slavery, from their very inception, but that doesn't stop me from learning their values and messages, or from reading the Bible.

You need to take your own thoughts from your subject material, don't let what others do and say influence your mind. Gain mastery over yourself. Almost all knowledge is subjective. The only thing that we can prove to be real, is ourselves."


If it's subjective, how's it "knowledge"? Also, I will keep looking at occultism a bit, just so I know what I'm talking about and can actually make good arguments to support my dis/belief in occultism.



"Just want to say that unless science changes its parameters, it will never be able to dis/prove the "realness" of magick or spirits, etc. Science is obviously a highly effective paradigm, but it has its limits."


Well just because science hasn't or can't prove something, that doesn't mean that that the "gap" is a place to insert magic(k). This sounds similar to the "God of the Gaps argument" http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps except insetead of "god", it' uses magic(k). Magic(k) could exist, but I don't think that just because science hasn't proven or doesn't know something, it means that magick did it.




"Magick used to be known as "The Art", and I find this an accurate way of looking at it. Think of it in terms of sports. We know it's possible to dunk from the free throw line, but not everyone can do it and even those that can don't succeed every attempt. Science explains how it's possible, but that doesn't mean everyone can do it well or at all.

Or look at it from the point of view of visual art. Once someone creates a piece, that's it. It's been done. Others can replicate it and might even fool the best experts, but the first one is the one and only and is unique. An act of magick is like a slam dunk or a work of art (ha!). Jordan could dunk and so could Dr. J, but they both had their own personal touch and made each dunk unique, every time. No one can replicate a specific slam dunk performed by either of these two or anyone else for that matter. They can come close, but can never match them exactly."

That's a good comparison, but it basically rends magic(k) unfalsifiable by science, meaning it basically can't be objectively proven. I'm not saying that necessarily a bad thing, but it does confine magic(k) to the subjective.

Honestly!
This is just getting a little silly and a bit out of hand with everyone pointing you towards so many things. If you want to leave, you should have by now. Since you're still here I feel like some part of you at least wants magick to exist. Why don't you just perform a summoning or something "for the laughs" and see what happens?

[/quote]

I probably do want magick to exist on some level, but I want to know what's true, not what I want to believe. And also, I'm not sure if a summoning or something similar would prove to me that magic(k) is real because it could be explained away as hallucination or something similar. I'm not sure if I could use occultism to prove to myself that occultism is real.

[Clockwork Ghost]

Have you considered suspending your disbelief for six months and joining the school? I am taking classes in the practice of magickal trance that you may find interesting. It is completely practical, and each step is discussed in detail.

[ultimafool]

Well just because science hasn't or can't prove something, that doesn't mean that that the "gap" is a place to insert magic(k). This sounds similar to the "God of the Gaps argument" http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps except insetead of "god", it' uses magic(k). Magic(k) could exist, but I don't think that just because science hasn't proven or doesn't know something, it means that magick did it.

I don't think of it as "God of the Gaps". Science cannot "undo" or de-magickify by explaining how things work. I know a lot disagree here, but starting a fire, learning to write, understanding psychology, architecture, etc, are all magickal to me, despite our relatively thorough understanding of the underlying mechanics. Scientist "debunked" a lot of shamanic healing practices but what they didn't understand was that the shamans understood the placebo effect, which scientists today still don't quite understand, but I digress... I feel that a lot of this has to with how we all define "magick".

That's a good comparison, but it basically rends magic(k) unfalsifiable by science, meaning it basically can't be objectively proven. I'm not saying that necessarily a bad thing, but it does confine magic(k) to the subjective.

My point exactly. Science has its limits. Art is unfalsifiable by science. This does not render my appreciation for art irrelevant nor will I cease to create art. But hey, I'm really not trying to convince you either way, just having an interesting conversation! Being challenged in these ways forces me to question everything and breaks me out of my comfort zones. Be well and do good, fellow being! [smile]

[findingtruth]

I feel similarly about the occult as you do, as I want science to prove it. However, I don't want to be confined just to "scientific proof" I do want a bit of my own experience in the spiritual world. Not to mention, if one studies and practices the occult, they are likely to be able to think up a hypothesis they may be able to test. If you want science to prove the occult, why not study it and be your own scientist? If that makes sense.
For example, I have (what I believe) is a fairly decent idea on how to test the validity of the chakras. Of course it involves and EEG machine the size of a human body and a neutrino detector, both of which I obviously can't get my hands on, but who knows? Maybe once I form a solid and sound way of testing this, some scientist with credentials will be interested in helping me out.

Everything you read brings you knowledge to some degree, whether you agree with the reasoning behind it or not, you are learning something even if it's simply the invalid or unsound arguments/views of others.

[NLDSatanist666]

Have you considered suspending your disbelief for six months and joining the school? I am taking classes in the practice of magickal trance that you may find interesting. It is completely practical, and each step is discussed in detail.

What's the school?

[NLDSatanist666]

Well just because science hasn't or can't prove something, that doesn't mean that that the "gap" is a place to insert magic(k). This sounds similar to the "God of the Gaps argument" http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps except insetead of "god", it' uses magic(k). Magic(k) could exist, but I don't think that just because science hasn't proven or doesn't know something, it means that magick did it.

I don't think of it as "God of the Gaps". Science cannot "undo" or de-magickify by explaining how things work. I know a lot disagree here, but starting a fire, learning to write, understanding psychology, architecture, etc, are all magickal to me, despite our relatively thorough understanding of the underlying mechanics. Scientist "debunked" a lot of shamanic healing practices but what they didn't understand was that the shamans understood the placebo effect, which scientists today still don't quite understand, but I digress... I feel that a lot of this has to with how we all define "magick".

I guess with the right definition, any act could be "magickal". When I use the term "magic(k)", I'm talking about the cast-a-spell-affect-the-outside-world type. Maybe I should look into some other definitions though.

[NLDSatanist666]

I feel similarly about the occult as you do, as I want science to prove it. However, I don't want to be confined just to "scientific proof" I do want a bit of my own experience in the spiritual world. Not to mention, if one studies and practices the occult, they are likely to be able to think up a hypothesis they may be able to test. If you want science to prove the occult, why not study it and be your own scientist? If that makes sense.
For example, I have (what I believe) is a fairly decent idea on how to test the validity of the chakras. Of course it involves and EEG machine the size of a human body and a neutrino detector, both of which I obviously can't get my hands on, but who knows? Maybe once I form a solid and sound way of testing this, some scientist with credentials will be interested in helping me out.

Everything you read brings you knowledge to some degree, whether you agree with the reasoning behind it or not, you are learning something even if it's simply the invalid or unsound arguments/views of others.

Yeah, I guess so. I'm still open to the idea of occult things existing, so the more I know, the better...