How do you afford magic?

[Bara Mortath]

Magic is will and intention. It's also such a simple thing as effort = results.
if you take some table salt you get salt water. It's easy, it's cheap and your spell is going to be cheap.
If you actually spent the time to gather enough gold to manufacture your own talisman it is going to be so much more powerful then a paper one, simply because you have pored more energy into making it.

So is going to the store and getting the most expensive of something really more effort than figuring out why you need the object in the first place? I guarantee anything you can do with dead sea salt you can do just as effectively with kosher salt 99.99% of the time (barring trying to contact what ever Genius Loci resides in or near the dead sea, in which case why are you not at the dead sea). The important part of the gold talisman is manufacture not the gold, that could be brass, or bronze, or at a stretch, gold Sculpy. What matters is the act of creation and whether or not you can make it work with what you have to hand.

Another view on magic is of course working with spirits, gods and so on.
The Loa in hoodoo is a good example. To work with them you have to give them gifts. this might be rum or cigars. I mean yeah, you can draw a picture of a cigar and offer that, but don't be surprised when they don't want to work with you. Heck, you might even insult them and they will retaliate.

The Loa have nothing to do with Hoodoo, that is a way of working magic. You are thinking of Vodou and as that is primarily practices by the poor I'm sure they're used to having inexpensive offerings. the important part of making an offering is that you give what you have and can afford. If all you can get is cheep rum and cigarettes as long as you are sincere in your devotion that should work (consult you local Houngan /Mambo for specifics on the Loa as they are the experts).

Dead sea salt is the purest salt on earth. It has almost no traces of biological trash, it's denser then normal salt, has higher mineral content and "In particular, the salt in most oceans is approximately 85% sodium chloride while Dead Sea salt is only 12-18% sodium chloride. Refined table salt is approximately 97% sodium chloride. "

It's referenced as having healing preferences since the days of the ancient Egyptians and are mentioned in many different magic sources.

So do you need it because it's "pure", because of it's high mineral content (pink Himalayan salt is higher on the mineral scale by the way), because of it's lack of biological matter, or because the Egyptians told you so?


Cheap incense smells like toilet products. If you were a god, Would you want to come in to a room that smells like a second rate spa?
Or would you rather come to a room that has handmade purposely made incense that are made the same way it has been made the last 5000 years.

Dunno, nor do I really care. I don't work with gods. My experience with other entities how ever is that they mostly care about the fact that you are offering, they may have favorites but mostly they are willing to be reasonable.

Say your friends are helping you move and you offer pizza and beer as an incentive. My friends at least would be just as happy with ordered in pizza and a decent 12 pack, as with hand made pizza and exclusive Belgian imports. They're there because they're my friends, not for the food. If you have to bribe an entity with things at the edge of your ability to afford I wouldn't trust it to actually do what you want long term.

Basically there is two (or three) different views here.

Objects have power in themselves. Energy gets trapped in object. Certain objects are better then others to attract spirits, gods, demons and so on.

Or, objects do not have power. all the power comes from the magician.

My point is objects have the power you give them.

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Now will you answer the question I posed to you?

Where did you get this idea that you need all these expensive things to practice magic?

*(to be fair I should probably answer the initial question myself)

How do you afford magic?

I have a job and don't need many non reusable materials.

[Sypheara]

I am afraid I agree with Desecrated.

Objects have inherent power. Substitutions are usually ok, to a point, but will not be suitable in all or even many cases. 'Jury Rigging' is certainly an art, and can work in a pinch, but pretending it is as effective as the 'best case' is not really acceptable.

Blood for example, usually cannot be substituted. If working with a particularly powerful rite, using your own can be exceedingly dangerous as it wont be sufficient.

In these, it is often that a sacrifice must be used to open those particular gates, the flesh and bones of the animal used to concentrate the individual gateways and provide real, physical links to them.

This cannot be substituted using anything else. It will not have the energetic release required and could even be self harmful, to use the most extreme example.

This can be found in a way in my Tradition with the Toad Rite. It requires the actual skin of a toad, and the required sigils etc, to be effective. No stand in in those cases will help you - you need the actual toad skin as well as its bones to cast into the river to find the appropriate toad bone for the remainder of the rite.

This is pretty much backed up by my spirit work. Spirits are flexible with offerings, but are often very very specific about some things they require.

[magari]

When I had a good paying job I spent a lot of money on magick.

I had all the tools, all the books, and a sweet altar that made panties wet.

Then I had a few experiences in nature and discovered how to recreate all my tools using my mind and what nature provided.

I haven't spent a dime on magick since.

[Desecrated]

[

So is going to the store and getting the most expensive of something really more effort than figuring out why you need the object in the first place? I guarantee anything you can do with dead sea salt you can do just as effectively with kosher salt 99.99% of the time (barring trying to contact what ever Genius Loci resides in or near the dead sea, in which case why are you not at the dead sea). The important part of the gold talisman is manufacture not the gold, that could be brass, or bronze, or at a stretch, gold Sculpy. What matters is the act of creation and whether or not you can make it work with what you have to hand.

Yes it helps if you believe that it helps.
Now, in this case, I can't find it at the store so I have to dedicate time and energy into finding it in the first place. It takes some effort, knowhow and skill into preparing a good ritual.

Gold is better then brass because gold in itself is purer. It's worth more and takes more skills to work with. There is a reason why alchemist spent hundred of years trying to make gold and not brass or bronze.

The Loa have nothing to do with Hoodoo, that is a way of working magic. You are thinking of Vodou and as that is primarily practices by the poor I'm sure they're used to having inexpensive offerings. the important part of making an offering is that you give what you have and can afford. If all you can get is cheep rum and cigarettes as long as you are sincere in your devotion that should work (consult you local Houngan /Mambo for specifics on the Loa as they are the experts).

Denise Alvarado and Doktor snake both use loas in their hoodoo.
Cheap rum and cigarettes will most likely do. Stale apple juice and lawn clippings rolled in paper will not.

So do you need it because it's "pure", because of it's high mineral content (pink Himalayan salt is higher on the mineral scale by the way), because of it's lack of biological matter, or because the Egyptians told you so?

All of the above.

I tried pink Himalayan salt (ungrounded and grounded it myself) but I didn't like it. I felt like I got better results with normal table salt actually, and now I'm interesting in trying dead sea salt. Kosher salt sounds interesting as well, but is really hard to find over here so that will be a bit of a challenge.

Dunno, nor do I really care. I don't work with gods. My experience with other entities how ever is that they mostly care about the fact that you are offering, they may have favorites but mostly they are willing to be reasonable.

Say your friends are helping you move and you offer pizza and beer as an incentive. My friends at least would be just as happy with ordered in pizza and a decent 12 pack, as with hand made pizza and exclusive Belgian imports. They're there because they're my friends, not for the food. If you have to bribe an entity with things at the edge of your ability to afford I wouldn't trust it to actually do what you want long term.

That is one way of seeing it. And it's a valid point

I feel however that there are some entities out there that don't want to be friends and are a bit stricter when it comes to showing proper respect and conduct.
And some of them that are not interested in being your friend, and need a bit of convincing to get them to even accept the job in the first place.

I don't pay a professional mover the same price I pay my friends to do it. And often, you get a better result with a professional moving firm, then with your friend.
Especially if you have friends that drinks an entire 12 pack....

Now will you answer the question I posed to you?

Where did you get this idea that you need all these expensive things to practice magic?

I'm a traditionalist/orthodox and this is the opinion that I get from reading the original sources of magic. Both grimores and older magic as well.
You can read the old testament, new testament or other middle eastern religions:
A sacrifice to the gods is better if you actually have to sacrifice something personal. The person who has two sheep and is prepared to sacrifice one of them has a higher chance of success then the guy who has 20 and sacrifices 1.
Effort = Results

Even with witchcraft and folk remedies there is a belief that purer is better.
A viking would not go to battle with a cheap blade and some stones they found on the ground. They dug deep underneath the mountain to find the purest minerals they could find, so that they could get the best weapons possible.
They didn't just take a bunch of twigs from the ground and tied it together to a boat. They tried to find the best trees that had the best quality wood. Oak, ash and other hardwoods that are actually hard to find here in Scandinavia. They could have used pine or birch, heck even maple is pretty hard, but it simply wasn't the best.

It's not about finding the most expensive. it's about finding good quality. And good quality is more expensive in todays society.
Especially if you want to practice magic often or even daily.

[cyberdemon]

If the intent is strong enough, cause and need urgent enough, then even pure nothing can create amazing results.
If it's all for the wrong reasons, then even the most expensive altar won't conjure anything.

Personally, since I don't perform rituals unless I think it's absolutely necessary I need an intervention, when I do, I go with what funds and items I have available at the time. So far so good.

[Desecrated]

I am afraid I agree with Desecrated.

You say that like it's a bad thing

[cyberdemon]

I am afraid I agree with Desecrated.

You say that like it's a bad thing

Oh god, this made me crack up..
Sigh!

[Draco20]

I have just over 5700 books. Real ones, no digital stuff.

Wow. That is quite a lot. Your appartement/house must be filled with bookshelves!

I also prefer paper books. They are the 'real' thing. Of course, pdf copies are useful, especially for titles that I can't hope to find at a reasonable price. I mean you can find every single books by Crowley online for free these days, which is awesome. It makes his teaching more accessible for people interested, may it be for practical purpose or intellectual curiosity. Some of this stuff is no longer edited and is hard to get by. But given the choice between staring at a computer screen (or a tablet) and access to a paper copy, the choice would be self-evident for me.

[Sypheara]

I am afraid I agree with Desecrated.

You say that like it's a bad thing

LOL, when you put it that way, it does sounds way, way cheekier and a different from what was intended. It was more a peace offering for the threads sake and to agree with your position in a cordial manner.

That is what I get for attempting to post too 'formally' haha [bummed] [grin]

TO discuss books, i personally can only stand hardback these days, and have a particular hatred for llewellyn as a publisher. They are too hit and miss, been unfortunate to buy some shovelware in the past, so ive resorted to more expensive but more consistent publishers.

[Bara Mortath]

I had a big long post typed up, with point by point rebuttal and the whole nine yards, but really why prolong this argument. We are obviously coming at this from vastly different points of view (though we actually are using similar logic to get to our stances it seems). This has turned into the quintessential traditionalist vs. deconstructionist debate.

Folk traditions have been doing effective magic for eons with little to no monetary investment, lack of money should stop no one from practicing if they would like, especially in this day and age of information access. In my experience monetary value has little to no effect on the outcome of magical operations; objects by and large do not have inherent power except as they are required by the principle of contagion (blood, animal curios,et all, basically pieces of places or things you are linking in the operation), and while certain entities can be asses about offerings by and large things in the same category work (rum and tobacco is rum and tobacco be it Pryat and Cubans, or Captain Morgan and cigarettes ). Obviously effort is important, but effort does not necessarily equate to monetary worth (and you can top load your effort column with a through understanding of why you need what you need) .

I think we can both agree that magic is intensely personal and there's no right way in the end as long as it works, the important thing is the work and results.

[Desecrated]

I have just over 5700 books. Real ones, no digital stuff.

Wow. That is quite a lot. Your appartement/house must be filled with bookshelves!

I also prefer paper books. They are the 'real' thing. Of course, pdf copies are useful, especially for titles that I can't hope to find at a reasonable price. I mean you can find every single books by Crowley online for free these days, which is awesome. It makes his teaching more accessible for people interested, may it be for practical purpose or intellectual curiosity. Some of this stuff is no longer edited and is hard to get by. But given the choice between staring at a computer screen (or a tablet) and access to a paper copy, the choice would be self-evident for me.

It takes up about 3 rooms right now.
But we have books in every room. We even had to build a small bookcase to have some organization over the cooking books. My wife also has at least 500 books.

Online books are great for reference. I use google books when I research what books to buy and sometimes when I find books for 40-50 dollars I buy the digital copy that is often much cheaper to see if it's something worth paying for as a hardcopy.
If I can find it as a free digital online even better.

PDF an similar sources are great for books that are out of print, or that has gotten overpriced. (no I'm not interested in paying 250 dollars for crowleys first book of poems only because it's hard to find.)

BUT buying used books actually gives you access to books that are not online. Heck I even have couple of books that are not in the swedish library longer.

I also love sites like wiki and google when it comes to finding quotes quickly from a book.

But nothing beats a entire bookcase overflowing with books. I don't remember who said it but the quote went something along the lines of " a good library should make you feel smarter simply by being in it"

[Desecrated]

TO discuss books, i personally can only stand hardback these days, and have a particular hatred for llewellyn as a publisher. They are too hit and miss, been unfortunate to buy some shovelware in the past, so ive resorted to more expensive but more consistent publishers.

LLewellyn and Weiser probably takes up about 3 shelfs right now in my reading room.
Both of them are weird companies. because they have all the Agrippa, Israel Regardie and such.
But they also have 200 books on crystal unicorn moon magick.

[Desecrated]

I had a big long post typed up, with point by point rebuttal and the whole nine yards, but really why prolong this argument. We are obviously coming at this from vastly different points of view (though we actually are using similar logic to get to our stances it seems). This has turned into the quintessential traditionalist vs. deconstructionist debate.

If you have the time and energy I would love to see it.

Folk traditions have been doing effective magic for eons with little to no monetary investment, lack of money should stop no one from practicing if they would like, especially in this day and age of information access. In my experience monetary value has little to no effect on the outcome of magical operations; objects by and large do not have inherent power except as they are required by the principle of contagion (blood, animal curios,et all, basically pieces of places or things you are linking in the operation), and while certain entities can be asses about offerings by and large things in the same category work (rum and tobacco is rum and tobacco be it Pryat and Cubans, or Captain Morgan and cigarettes ). Obviously effort is important, but effort does not necessarily equate to monetary worth (and you can top load your effort column with a through understanding of why you need what you need) .

I think todays society in some ways also makes it harder.
I can't imagine many cunning folk in the past living in large cities without access to gardens and forest.
Yet many of us are in that situation today. If I want to do a real grounding ritual, I have to take the car to a place about 15 minutes away from here.
And being a Northerner, many herbs and spices simply don't grow up here. Even some traditional animals don't live up here. I have no idea were to find a mole or a badger.
If there was a place to collect my own salt, I would use that over anything else, simply because I would have put more effort into it. But right now, the sea is frozen.

I think we can both agree that magic is intensely personal and there's no right way in the end as long as it works, the important thing is the work and results.

O hell yes!
The practitioners attitude and beliefs are more important then the method sometimes.

[RoseRed]

Kosher salt is blessed by a rabbi in the name of YWHW. If you're good with that - it can be a powerful ingredient.

I use a lot of sea salt. I like the Himalayan for my kitchen table shaker/grinder.

A lot of it depends on what type of magic you practice. Ceremonial magick can be quite expensive. Practical magic uses a lot of what's readily available.

[Haelos]

Sorry if anyone considered this thread dead. I'm reoccupying the area.
I've been coming to find that my biggest magickal expense is time, and books for writing.
I don't get cheap school notebooks (although I should.) Blank books are honestly some of the favorite things I own.

I bought one blank, hand-made sketchbook for like 50 bucks from a renaissance fair, for my mate. It's thus far gone unused, save for a sketch or two.
I have one small leather-bound, blank sketchbook that my mate is now using as her first book in her initiation. I was going to use it, but didn't like it.
My mate has one large, leather bound sketch book with an atlas across the covering. That one only has a few sketches.
I have one small blank, hard-cover sketch book that was my first book, and holds correspondences and formulas for sympathetic magick.
I have one small sketch book that I use for more advanced formulas and a few odds and ends.
And I have one small, leather-bound book with lined paper, for recording my dreams in. I plan on getting one more of this style for myself, and one for my mate.

And these are *just* blank books for recording my important information. Most of them are fully blank paper, so I have everything from sheet music and poems, to correspondences of the days and minutes to the chemical make-up of the human body recorded in them.
I almost always have at least one of my books on my person at all times. I constantly use them to record anything important. Small, pocket-sized books are all you need. Heck, sticky notes could be enough if you were efficient.
I also have a really cool sharpie pen that no one else uses to write in them, although I used to just use pen, pencil, or calligraphy pen and ink.
For my dreams, I'm likely going to start on some cheap college notebooks after I fill my first little one.
As a rough estimate, about 100 dollars have gone to blank books. The single most valuable resource I own, next to written books.

[Desecrated]

I bought one blank, hand-made sketchbook for like 50 bucks from a renaissance fair, for my mate. It's thus far gone unused, save for a sketch or two.
I have one small leather-bound, blank sketchbook that my mate is now using as her first book in her initiation. I was going to use it, but didn't like it.
My mate has one large, leather bound sketch book with an atlas across the covering. That one only has a few sketches.
I have one small blank, hard-cover sketch book that was my first book, and holds correspondences and formulas for sympathetic magick.
I have one small sketch book that I use for more advanced formulas and a few odds and ends.
And I have one small, leather-bound book with lined paper, for recording my dreams in. I plan on getting one more of this style for myself, and one for my mate.

I got my hand on a stack of virgin paper, but I will by parchment and some papyrus in the future. I finally found a store that makes it over here.
I've also been interested in some vax tablets, but a leather-bound journal did sound like a good idea.

Right now I'm using a fountain pen, but I have gotten a calligraphy set with feather pen, real ink and all that. I will use next time I make sigils.

For my journalwork I bought one of those alchemy/goth looking journal, it has a wizard and dragons on it. LOL (I found it cheap, don't judge me)