The real meaning of "the hanged man" ???

[Desecrated]

Does anybody know the real meaning behind the hanged man in the rider deck?
Not the divination meaning but the hidden occult meaning.
( And none of that, "it can mean what ever you wan it to mean" stuff, thank you. )

What did A.E Waite mean with it? How does it fit into his golden dawn, freemasonry, christian mysticism mix?
Did he ever write about it? Other then the pictorial key.

What does the Tau cross mean in golden dawn, in freemasonry and in christianity? No modern meanings.
Does it tie in with the birth and rebirth theme in the magician?

Why did he think the legs formed a fylfot? The legs crossed like that is from italian art before the Eddas was even translated.
It has nothing to do with Odin. Neopaganism or anything like that. Or was he trying to make that connection because of the trends at the time?

Why did he change it from the left foot to the right foot?

Upside down triangle?
Water, femininity or just trinity?

" It has been called falsely a card of martyrdom"
So why the gloria?
Illumination?

"it expresses the relation between the Divine and the Universe."

I thought that was the same.

[magari]

Think of the major arcana like a story and it makes a bit more sense.

You're worrying about details that are only leading you astray.

The entire deck is the message, not an individual card.

The hanged man represents that part in the story where we all have to make a sacrifice. All the imagery on the individual card is up to the artist to decide on. Those details have no secret meaning of any value to someone who understands the big picture.

[Clockwork Ghost]

This from Papus:

'In the divine world, this card represents the revelation of the law. In the intellectual world, it represents the teaching of duty. In the physical world, it represents sacrifice. Arcanum XII is represented by a man hung from one foot by a gallows. The mans hands are tied behind his back , and the crook of the arms forms the base of an inverted triangle, the apex of this being his head. This symbolises violent death suffered as a result of a tragic accident, or in expiation of a crime. A classic image of this card shows the trees which support the gallows pole as having twelve cut branches - this represents the extinction of life and the destruction of the twelve houses of the Zodiac. The reversed triangle symbolises a catastrophe. This is the card of Saint-Yves (Ivo of Kermartin, I believe)'

[Desecrated]

Think of the major arcana like a story and it makes a bit more sense.

You're worrying about details that are only leading you astray.

The entire deck is the message, not an individual card.

The hanged man represents that part in the story where we all have to make a sacrifice. All the imagery on the individual card is up to the artist to decide on. Those details have no secret meaning of any value to someone who understands the big picture.

You need to study the story of the rider deck more. It is so much more then just that.

[Desecrated]

This from Papus:

'In the divine world, this card represents the revelation of the law. In the intellectual world, it represents the teaching of duty. In the physical world, it represents sacrifice. Arcanum XII is represented by a man hung from one foot by a gallows. The mans hands are tied behind his back , and the crook of the arms forms the base of an inverted triangle, the apex of this being his head. This symbolises violent death suffered as a result of a tragic accident, or in expiation of a crime. A classic image of this card shows the trees which support the gallows pole as having twelve cut branches - this represents the extinction of life and the destruction of the twelve houses of the Zodiac. The reversed triangle symbolises a catastrophe. This is the card of Saint-Yves (Ivo of Kermartin, I believe)'

Yes.
But Papus wrote that 20 years before the rider deck and he was talking about another deck.

[palindrom]

hi Desecrated

i'll try to tell a bit from my studies in chassidian kabbalah (and magic).
don't know how much use it will be to you, but perhaps some things will give you a new lead or inspiration where to look further...
i'm still quite a newbie in the world of magic and kabbalah (close to two years of, intense, studying), so that's certainly nowhere near real knowledge about these crazy big wide deep topics...

i never read about waite or his writings about tarot before (which book would you recommend?). i just know the deck quite well...

...having said all this in advance, here my stab at answering your questions:

what does the TAU cross mean in golden dawn, in freemasonry and in christianity? no modern meanings. does it tie wiht the birth and rebirth theme in the magician?

i’m not sure if i understood you right here – i suppose you mean the letter „tav“, the last in the hebrew alphabet? i know that this letter has been written as a cross in earlier times, and that in english (which is not my mother tongue) „tav“ is sometimes writtes as „tau“...

if so, this letter means the full length of time in our reality. tav carries the value 400, and the value 500 in the bible always points towards something which will take place in another reality, not the one here.
so, if tav is ment here it could mean that the hanged man realizes how he is trapped in the 400, in the ongoing reality of this time, which never stops. in order to get out of it, one has to do something completely different – like jump out of time, out of the universe (or stand on your head)...
in this sense it does tie with the birth/rebirth theme, because you have to „die“ in this time here, to get born into the other reality...

why did he change it from the left foot to the rigth foot?

maybe he wants to stress the situation of the hanged man as a person who ist so rooted in his spiritual being (his right pillar, the male side) that the outside world (which in chassidian kabbalah ist always represented by everything female) to him looks like uspide down, inside out...
this makes actually more sense than being hung up on your left pillar-side, which is symbolising the world of matter, the female side (i'm not 100% positive this is correct - if anyone knows better, please tell me!). that would be our normal state, hung up in the world of matter...
were there earlier tarot-sets all with the hanged man hung up on his left foot?

upside down triangle?
water, femininity, or just trinity?

water in the chassidian kabbalah stands for „time“.
water in hebrew means „majim“.
the letter m(ajim) carries the value 40, which places it as to be the little sister of tav, 400. while m(ajim), water represents the state of „being in time“ (think of jonah in the belly of the whale, in the deepest waters), tav represents the whole amount of time, the endless flow of time...
it has a connection with femininity, insofar as everything (!) that pops in existence, into matter, is considered female in chassidian kabbalah (and everything) male points towards the hidden, spiritual world (that's the way they read the bible, friedrich weinreb at least).
if waite ment to show this, i don’t know.

„it has been called falsely a card of martyrdom“
so why the gloria?
illumination?

whom are you citing here?
the hanged man is numbered the twelft card of the great arcana. but he is the thirteenth card in the entire row since the fool is the first.
and the number thirteen in christian/jewish mysticism is, as far as i know, closely related with jesus/the messiah. he is the hidden thirteenth; in chassidian kabbalah there is the picture of the rose with twelve blossom-leaves, six red ones and six white ones (the red symbolising the north/the bodily realm, the white standing for the south/the realm of spirit) – and there is said to be a thirteenth leaf, which has a colour that cannot be described; because it isn’t describable in this reality.

the glory which lies in the martyrdom is key to christian/jewish mysticism, as far as i know by now – more about that, see below...

„it expresses the relation between the divine and the universe“

i thought that was the same.

in chassidian kabbalah (sorry to repeat myself), there is always this distinction between the world in „flowing time“ (the universe) and the world of eternity (the divine), where there is no time.
so, perhaps, this phrase (whom is it from?) wants to point at this, the position of incarnated spirit who is trapped (hanged man) in ageing flesh and still feels the truth of there being a reality without time (from where all the universe-in-time flows)

the messiah (the hanged man?) is said to stem from TWO houses: from the house of david, and from the house of joseph.
this means that he is the son of david the great king, songwriter and vanquisher of goliath, AS WELL AS (think of the symbol of the cross, escpecially the rose in the middle) the son of joseph, whose name means „there will come another one“.
david, „the loved one“ stands for the side of eternity, of spirit, and joseph for the side of us which is "here" always knowing that this "here" isn’t all there is...
and the messiah is the son of both of them.
those two sides have to be reconciled in each of us, which is also the meaning of the cross in christianity, and i guess in other traditions as well...
the „sufferer/looser“ (stemming from joseph’s house) and the „winner“ (stemming from david’s house) have to become one inside you – that’s, in my opinion, the occult meaning of the hanged man – that he recognizes that the world can only be overcome by completely accepting it – taking the cross, the tav... being „in“ time AND „outside“ it. at the same... ah... time [grin]

and, the next arcana, very fitting, are death, temperance, devil, tower, which show that the journey after this moment of enlightenment still leads through the battles of life, until after the big crash (or very possibly more than one) one gets slowly ready for the reality of macrocosm – the stars, the moon, the sun; and then finally the world again (holding two wands, perhaps the two pillars?), but in a creating-dance now (not like the fool who „just“ dances)


...hope i wasn't rambling on too much.

cheers

pali

(p.s.: i like your questions - they always give me reason to think again...)

[magari]

Think of the major arcana like a story and it makes a bit more sense.

You're worrying about details that are only leading you astray.

The entire deck is the message, not an individual card.

The hanged man represents that part in the story where we all have to make a sacrifice. All the imagery on the individual card is up to the artist to decide on. Those details have no secret meaning of any value to someone who understands the big picture.

You need to study the story of the rider deck more. It is so much more then just that.

Just a warning not to get lost in the trees and forget the forest.

[Desecrated]

The quotes is from Waite himself.

An I thank you very much for that long post. Lot's of good things to pounder about.

[palindrom]

you're welcome : )

which book from waite, which book about waite, would you recommend the most?

i got du quettes excellent book about the crowley tarot, and i'd be interested in other good literature about tarot, in general, or specifically about one deck...

[Cybernetic_Jazz]

Desecrated,

A book I really think you might want to get if you don't have it already - Robert Wang's Qabalistic Tarot. He gives a way a LOT in that.

I haven't completely tied this arcanum together but as you pointed out the Hanged Man is hung on a Tau, it's reversal of orientation to the world (Tau), and the thing that seems to keep getting drilled by everyone about this card who'll say much on it - Samadhi, the card is centered on the concept of Samadhi. I won't claim to know all the ins and outs of the inverted Sulfur symbol but overall, as far as I can tell, it's a clue in the card to the effect of what I just described - ie. self-conscious endeavor toward the interior.

You'll notice that there's a dug-out in the ground often where his eyes are just below the surface, that's as if to say that he's seeing with his astral eyes, or with his eyes and the top of his head functioning on other plains than the physical.

I could offer more speculation on this but I don't want to misguide either; lots of interesting ideas but I think the biggest takeaway is to tie that Tau to its association to Key 21: The World/Universe. Also, as I'm sure you noticed, twelve branches lobbed off the Tau or twelve zodiacal influences put to rest. Also I missed this part of your question - the cards are written as if to a right-handed/right-sided audience, right is active, left is passive, hence I would gather that having it on the right foot would add clarity to the assertion that it's the resignation of activity.

[Desecrated]

you're welcome : )

which book from waite, which book about waite, would you recommend the most?

i got du quettes excellent book about the crowley tarot, and i'd be interested in other good literature about tarot, in general, or specifically about one deck...

the pictorial key to the tarot.

I can't recommend any of waites writings. He writes like a stone. Extremely boring and stiff. But the book mentioned above is meant to be used in collaboration to the deck.

[Desecrated]

Desecrated,

A book I really think you might want to get if you don't have it already - Robert Wang's Qabalistic Tarot. He gives a way a LOT in that.

I haven't completely tied this arcanum together but as you pointed out the Hanged Man is hung on a Tau, it's reversal of orientation to the world (Tau), and the thing that seems to keep getting drilled by everyone about this card who'll say much on it - Samadhi, the card is centered on the concept of Samadhi. I won't claim to know all the ins and outs of the inverted Sulfur symbol but overall, as far as I can tell, it's a clue in the card to the effect of what I just described - ie. self-conscious endeavor toward the interior.

You'll notice that there's a dug-out in the ground often where his eyes are just below the surface, that's as if to say that he's seeing with his astral eyes, or with his eyes and the top of his head functioning on other plains than the physical.

I could offer more speculation on this but I don't want to misguide either; lots of interesting ideas but I think the biggest takeaway is to tie that Tau to its association to Key 21: The World/Universe. Also, as I'm sure you noticed, twelve branches lobbed off the Tau or twelve zodiacal influences put to rest. Also I missed this part of your question - the cards are written as if to a right-handed/right-sided audience, right is active, left is passive, hence I would gather that having it on the right foot would add clarity to the assertion that it's the resignation of activity.

I have to study more kabbalah.

[bummed]

[Cybernetic_Jazz]

I had the same question digging at me as well, there were two legs of it for me - one the suggestions of the Hanged Man's import in A.E. Waite's tarot book and the other from MP Hall's Secret Teachings of All Ages where he gets to the tarot and starts offering Eliphas Levi's quotes on the value of the tarot which were even more extraordinary (or perhaps less reserved) than Waite's. That sort of depth of power and potential in the use of the tarot seems to pervade the whole of book T - most notably the 22 majors but also in more specific application the 56 minors as well.

[palindrom]

the pictorial key to the tarot.

I can't recommend any of waites writings. He writes like a stone. Extremely boring and stiff. But the book mentioned above is meant to be used in collaboration to the deck.

hehe... i don't like too a heavy writing-style either

thanx for the recommendation!

@Cybernetic Jazz: thank you as well for your input here! the "book T", what is that?

[Desecrated]

the pictorial key to the tarot.

I can't recommend any of waites writings. He writes like a stone. Extremely boring and stiff. But the book mentioned above is meant to be used in collaboration to the deck.

hehe... i don't like too a heavy writing-style either

thanx for the recommendation!

@Cybernetic Jazz: thank you as well for your input here! the "book T", what is that?

The instruction manual for the golden dawn tarot.

[Cybernetic_Jazz]

Book T also was the terminology for something Christian Rosencreuts had in his posession in his tomb when it was discovered. They often referred to the ROTA that they had for divining and it seems quite often (unless I'm way off on this) the 78 page book of tarot itself is spoken of as book T as well. In other words the powers of the Hanged Man per A E Waite's description meets similarly pertinent powers in all the other cards.

[palindrom]

ah, ok. is book T (as a book) the same as the so called "book eight" of "the golden dawn", then?

[Cybernetic_Jazz]

ah, ok. is book T (as a book) the same as the so called "book eight" of "the golden dawn", then?

Don't hold me to it. I've gotten the impression that the term 'book T' meant nothing other than the 78 cards of the tarot itself (which would not cause a problem with GD developing a document by that name) but if it should turn out I'm completely wrong on that please disregard - a lot of what I've read has lead me to that impression, particularly Paul Foster Case's phrasing of things in True and Invisible Rosicrucian Order got me thinking along those lines.

[Desecrated]

"Book T" also appears in the Complete Golden Dawn System of Magic and the Golden Dawn, however neither of these works are known for their easy indexing.

An Introduction contains more than just the raw tables of "Book T". The first 51 pages of this small book discusses several topics anent the history surrounding the Golden Dawn tarot. For instance decks produced by various members of the GD are mentioned as well as how and often why they differ from the GD manuscripts. There is also a section talking about the differences between "exoteric" and "esoteric" tarot decks. More importantly, at least from the practicing magician's point of view, there is a discussion on how the tarot can be used in ritual and for skrying.

The actual book:
http://www.hermetics.org/pdf/gd/t.pdf

[Cybernetic_Jazz]

I just re-read that section of True and Invisible - looks like it was a different suggestion altogether, although I'm profoundly confused on one thing; I checked two copies of Fama Fraternitatis which book copies called the document that Christian Rosencreutz had in his hand 'Book I', Paul Foster Case keeps calling it 'Book T'. He actually did say that it wouldn't be the Tarot because that was already referred to in the Fama by 'Rota'. Wonder where on earth he got the 'T' from though.

[magari]

In regards to divination;

What we are doing is taking a snapshot of the universe using dice/runes/cards, ect.

The act is a co-creation between you and the chaos (You shuffled the cards, yet had no choice in the outcome).

Considering the entire spectrum of chaos and existence. When you choose a tool for divination, you are choosing how to organize or label sections of the spectrum.

The zodiac for example, takes the entire spectrum of the human race and divides it into 12. While 2 Pisces may not seem alike at all, they both still fall under the spectrum of the fish and in contrast to the rest of the zodiac, can seem like twins.

The same thing is happening with the Tarot.

When you choose to divinate with the major arcana, what you're doing is taking the entire spectrum of possibilities and dividing it into 22 cards.

Its quite simple really and once you understand the role each of the 22 cards play, the picture on the card becomes meaningless. At this point the picture simply serves as a reminder.

Hence why a lot of individuals are incredibly comfortable using poker cards instead of the minor arcana.

Beyond that, exploration of a card's picture is more of a meditation on the card's meaning. However, you can never assume that the artist understood the meaning themselves, or that each brush stroke was one of channeled genius. However, you can depend on 22 cards representing 22 aspects of the chaos, existing only in contrast to each other.

The only reason the hanged man exists is because Justice and Death also exist. The Hanged man is the result of Justice and ends in Death.

The story of the Tarot is told along a spiral. Its a creation story and a story of how consciousness matures in the universe. In regards to the Hanged Man;

First we come upon Justice, Justice represents responsible decision making, and outcomes endured. Drawing the card of Justice means you are consciously aware of the consequences of your decisions. This card blends in naturally to the next; The Hanged Man, which represents willful sacrifice, or the action/inaction necessary from a complete understanding of Justice.

Even when escape from our torture is possible, having learned the lesson of Justice, we submit willingly to the will of the world, knowing that Justice must be served. It represents a sacrifice, a willingness to give something up for the greater good in our hearts.

The ultimate sacrifice, as realized by the Hanged Man, is Death, the next card in the Tarot. Death represents and end to the old ways and a beginning of a new perspective. Having learned the lessons of Justice, and making the sacrifice of The Hanged Man, we must die and leave behind our old perspective.

When using the tarot, I recommend focusing on the bigger picture. Divining details is a futile enterprise. The real meaning of The Hanged Man is only gleaned through an understanding of the entire major arcana and where it appears in relation to every other card.

In regards to myth, the card is often affiliated with Jesus on the cross. Once Justice was accepted, Jesus was crucified (Hanged Man), and died only to be reborn immortal. Its also affiliated with Odin's self sacrifice, hanging himself from a tree.

I'm not sure what your goal is in understanding exactly what Rider's personal interpretations are.

There are far more modern decks with imagery thats incredibly powerful when compared to Rider's. On top of that the human experience itself has changed so much the archetypes just aren't the same anymore.

Consider your last question in your first post.

"it expresses the relation between the Divine and the Universe."

I thought that was the same.

Again, don't let the details lead you astray.

[palindrom]

"Book T" also appears in the Complete Golden Dawn System of Magic and the Golden Dawn, however neither of these works are known for their easy indexing.

An Introduction contains more than just the raw tables of "Book T". The first 51 pages of this small book discusses several topics anent the history surrounding the Golden Dawn tarot. For instance decks produced by various members of the GD are mentioned as well as how and often why they differ from the GD manuscripts. There is also a section talking about the differences between "exoteric" and "esoteric" tarot decks. More importantly, at least from the practicing magician's point of view, there is a discussion on how the tarot can be used in ritual and for skrying.

The actual book:
http://www.hermetics.org/pdf/gd/t.pdf

thank you : )

as far as i have seen when scrolling down, it's "only" about the minor arcana, but that's good as well, lots of info there...

[palindrom]

In regards to divination;

What we are doing is taking a snapshot of the universe using dice/runes/cards, ect.

The act is a co-creation between you and the chaos (You shuffled the cards, yet had no choice in the outcome).

Considering the entire spectrum of chaos and existence. When you choose a tool for divination, you are choosing how to organize or label sections of the spectrum.

The zodiac for example, takes the entire spectrum of the human race and divides it into 12. While 2 Pisces may not seem alike at all, they both still fall under the spectrum of the fish and in contrast to the rest of the zodiac, can seem like twins.

The same thing is happening with the Tarot.

When you choose to divinate with the major arcana, what you're doing is taking the entire spectrum of possibilities and dividing it into 22 cards.

Its quite simple really and once you understand the role each of the 22 cards play, the picture on the card becomes meaningless. At this point the picture simply serves as a reminder.

Hence why a lot of individuals are incredibly comfortable using poker cards instead of the minor arcana.

Beyond that, exploration of a card's picture is more of a meditation on the card's meaning. However, you can never assume that the artist understood the meaning themselves, or that each brush stroke was one of channeled genius. However, you can depend on 22 cards representing 22 aspects of the chaos, existing only in contrast to each other.

The only reason the hanged man exists is because Justice and Death also exist. The Hanged man is the result of Justice and ends in Death.

The story of the Tarot is told along a spiral. Its a creation story and a story of how consciousness matures in the universe. In regards to the Hanged Man;

First we come upon Justice, Justice represents responsible decision making, and outcomes endured. Drawing the card of Justice means you are consciously aware of the consequences of your decisions. This card blends in naturally to the next; The Hanged Man, which represents willful sacrifice, or the action/inaction necessary from a complete understanding of Justice.

Even when escape from our torture is possible, having learned the lesson of Justice, we submit willingly to the will of the world, knowing that Justice must be served. It represents a sacrifice, a willingness to give something up for the greater good in our hearts.

The ultimate sacrifice, as realized by the Hanged Man, is Death, the next card in the Tarot. Death represents and end to the old ways and a beginning of a new perspective. Having learned the lessons of Justice, and making the sacrifice of The Hanged Man, we must die and leave behind our old perspective.

When using the tarot, I recommend focusing on the bigger picture. Divining details is a futile enterprise. The real meaning of The Hanged Man is only gleaned through an understanding of the entire major arcana and where it appears in relation to every other card.

In regards to myth, the card is often affiliated with Jesus on the cross. Once Justice was accepted, Jesus was crucified (Hanged Man), and died only to be reborn immortal. Its also affiliated with Odin's self sacrifice, hanging himself from a tree.

I'm not sure what your goal is in understanding exactly what Rider's personal interpretations are.

There are far more modern decks with imagery thats incredibly powerful when compared to Rider's. On top of that the human experience itself has changed so much the archetypes just aren't the same anymore.

Consider your last question in your first post.

"it expresses the relation between the Divine and the Universe."

I thought that was the same.

Again, don't let the details lead you astray.

that's an excellent despcription of how divination works : )

i'm personally just getting wary about linking stuff from different cultures together as completely equal... while odin and jesus both hung on wood with a spear in the side (yes, there seems to be a strong connection in the two myths), one of them is depicted as the relentless seeker of knowledge and wisdom, while the other is fishing people out of the water/saving people. to me this seems to be something completely different.
even if they both sacrifice themselves, one of them gets the runes from it, a tool to act even wiser and stronger, the other isn't looking for a gain in power in what he does (but simply does what has to be done?).

i think one could see both archetypes in the hanged man; as you say, it's a station in a journey.

but how you read that station for yourself - there i think, all the details comes into play...

and there you also might see in studying other's tarotcards how they perceived the hanged man - more like an odinic person, or more like something jesus-like.

...and then you might find out more about yourself, if this specific tree in the forest is an oak or a birch for you, or maybe an appletree... : )

[Cybernetic_Jazz]

I'm not sure what your goal is in understanding exactly what Rider's personal interpretations are.

Waite made some pretty big claims about this card in Pictorial Key to the Tarot, and I remembered when I read it this card significantly more hype from him than a lot of the others:

The gallows from which he is suspended forms a Tau cross, while the figure--from the position of the legs--forms a fylfot cross. There is a nimbus about the head of the seeming martyr. It should be noted (1) that the tree of sacrifice is living wood, with leaves thereon; (2) that the face expresses deep entrancement, not suffering; (3) that the figure, as a whole, suggests life in suspension, but life and not death. It is a card of profound significance, but all the significance is veiled. One of his editors suggests that Éliphas Lévi did not know the meaning, which is unquestionable nor did the editor himself. It has been called falsely a card of martyrdom, a card a of prudence, a card of the Great Work, a card of duty; but we may exhaust all published interpretations and find only vanity. I will say very simply on my own part that it expresses the relation, in one of its aspects, between the Divine and the Universe.

He who can understand that the story of his higher nature is imbedded in this symbolism will receive intimations concerning a great awakening that is possible, and will know that after the sacred Mystery of Death there is a glorious Mystery of Resurrection.

[magari]

Once you see the details in your own life, the right details emerge from the cards, or from myth.