Evocation

[Haqim]

I've practiced magic for long years, but have never tried "traditional" evocation (goetic, Lesser Key of Solomon, Enochian magic, etc).

So I decided to start this topic to discuss evocation in general.

Any experiences with evocation?
Any results?

Please share your stories to the beginners!

Also it'd be nice if we could have some interesting debates and discussions, too.

[Haqim]

(I purposely ask my first question as another reply, to avoid confusion)

So I want to study "classic" evocation, but don't know where to start.

I began with the Lesser Key of Solomon, but its skill-floor is a bit high for me.
Without any experiences in traditional evocation, I don't know where to start.

P.S.: As many of you might know, I've practiced chaos magical evocation.
But that's a completely different thing - it's absolutely freestyle and without rules and grimoires.
That's why I need Your help now.

[Haqim]

Bump.

(Unfortunately I didn't see any Evocation topic on the forum and I'm really curious.)

[Shinichi]

Develop yourself to the completion of Step 8 of the IIH, or the equivalent in any other paradigm or system. Once you do this, Evocation will be easy. Not only will you have a collection of important magical skills, from basic energy work to The Sight and the ability to Journey to the Otherworld and meet spirits in their own environment, but you will also have developed the Magical Fortitude or Equipoise (Elemental or otherwise) that will both protect you from the influence of powerful spirits and automatically earn you their respect.

From that position of being a genuine initiate, working with old grimoires is simple.



~:Shin:~

[Haqim]

Thanks for the answer, Shinichi!

I wonder: is it possible to simply start with an actual grimoire, for example the Lesser Key?

Plus I don't really understand why a lot of practitioner say that Bardon's works are not the best way to practice evocation?
Some even said that his method is completely inefficient.

I started to read it a few weeks ago and - apart from the fact that his books are really long and difficult to read - I didn't understand why they dislike him.

Also: I know that evocationmagic is dead, but are there no evokers on this forum?

[corvidus]

I wonder: is it possible to simply start with an actual grimoire, for example the Lesser Key?

To be proficient with the Lesser Key of Solomon depends on how well you know Kabbalah. There are simpler grimoires available, like The Book of the Sacred Magic of Abramelin the Mage.

Also: I know that evocation magic is dead, but are there no evokers on this forum?

This is the first I've heard of evocation magic being dead...
Sad day.

[Shinichi]

I wonder: is it possible to simply start with an actual grimoire, for example the Lesser Key?

Abremelin is a better grimoire to start with, as was said. When you work with the Lemegeton, I'll go on and say that, in my own opinion, Ars Notoria is the Key to that particular grimoire. Not simply because it is the oldest book and thus the literal foundation, but because its training is meant to develop the magician and prepare him for the more advanced workings in the rest of the book.

The problem with that, though, is I'm not aware of any properly (publicly published) preserved copy of Ars Notoria, so you may have trouble getting your hands on it. You should also be careful with modern translations of both the Lemegeton and Abremelin, particularly the Mathers works, which later scholars have criticized for accuracy. Which isn't Mathers fault, as much as that he simply didn't have access to as many alternatives to compare his manuscript to as later scholars have dug up.

Plus I don't really understand why a lot of practitioner say that Bardon's works are not the best way to practice evocation?
Some even said that his method is completely inefficient.

I started to read it a few weeks ago and - apart from the fact that his books are really long and difficult to read - I didn't understand why they dislike him.

Bardon is a strict, old school instructor of magick. In the present age of instant gratification, many would-be initiates aren't willing to put in the hard work necessary to fulfill Bardon's prerequisites. Thus, they move on to other things, and complain about the difficulty or effectiveness of Big Bad Bardon.

Which isn't to say that other methods won't work, because there is most certainly more than one way to develop oneself and practice evocation. But if you want to work Bardon's method, you're going to earn your stripes.

Though, in my own opinion, Bardon's prerequisites are much easier than, say, the Abremelin Operation. Might take a year or two extra, depending on how much you practice, but certainly less difficult to do in the modern age.

Also: I know that evocationmagic is dead, but are there no evokers on this forum?

If you mean the old evocationmagic forums, there was a breakup thing and they moved to wizardforums under a new administration. They are still around and there are a ton of folks over there who practice evocation.

If you mean the practice of evocation magic is dead, that would be very much incorrect.



~:Shin:~

[Haqim]

Thanks for all the help, Shinichi!

I'm working on a few projects right now, but I hope I'll have time to all the interesting books about Evocation!

I only checked the Lesser Key and it's... interesting.
Traditional Evocation seems to be a bit "dusty" to me.
Not boring, not at all - more like: weird.

And this is why I hate to be a chaote sometimes: evocation, for example, is a fascinating part of magic.
... but I'd rather create my own entities than summon others'.

But, as I said, I hope I'll have enough time for the 'old-timers', too.

[Haelos]

... but I'd rather create my own entities than summon others'.

Sometimes I feel the same as this, but I can assure you that after you first couple evocations (where you actually get what you want) you will think very differently on it. Creating your own entities still has a very valuable place, but your entities do not know the same thing as certain others' do. Evocation to me, is primarily for learning. There's little reason to come to a higher spirit for what we as petty humans can just as easily do.

[Haqim]

I can assure you that after you first couple evocations (where you actually get what you want) you will think very differently on it.

... And that is why I still want to learn traditional evocation!

It just needs a lot of attention and time, and now I want to focus on my experiments.

[Haelos]

I can assure you that after you first couple evocations (where you actually get what you want) you will think very differently on it.

... And that is why I still want to learn traditional evocation!

It just needs a lot of attention and time, and now I want to focus on my experiments.

Shin had the best information, as always. He's our Proclaimed Resident Evocation Expert.
I'm not sure if I saw this in there, but another book that will help you on the path of Ceremonial Evocation is Waite's Book of Ceremonial Magic.
You may have read it, of course.
It's a tough read, but I learned a lot of valuable information that I can take into just about any evocation or experiment in such.

I love it, and I recommend it. You learn some fantastic things when you don't dick around.


Edit: When I say I recommend it, believe that is not something I do very often for people. I can tell you are one who will do well with this power, unlike many others on the internet who deal in these practices.

[Haqim]

[RoseRed]

evocation magic was reborn as StudioArcanis.

I'm not a ceremonial magician but there are quite a few decent forums where they hang out.

[Haqim]

evocation magic was reborn as StudioArcanis.

I'm not a ceremonial magician but there are quite a few decent forums where they hang out.

Thank you!!! [yay]

I've never even heard about StudioArcanis.
It mus be new or something.

[RoseRed]

You're very welcome. It's just the new name for the old evocationmagic forum.

[Haqim]

You're very welcome. It's just the new name for the old evocationmagic forum.

Ah, I see!
Maybe I'll give it a try.

And again: Thanks!

[Shinichi]

I only checked the Lesser Key and it's... interesting.
Traditional Evocation seems to be a bit "dusty" to me.
Not boring, not at all - more like: weird.

It is important to remember that these grimoires come from a period in history where everyone believed that magick only worked one or two ways - via the calculated alignment of natural forces in Natural Magick, or via commanding the favor of spirits and earning the blessing of the gods. The idea of Personal Power was not encouraged in the West until much later, mainly after Eliphas Levi.

So while it may be dusty and weird, Traditional Ceremonial Magick (both Traditional Evocation and Natural Magick) is some of the most potent stuff you will ever see, because it does not rely exclusively on your own power but rather on your ability to wisely use the powers of nature. You become a switch box, redirecting currents much bigger than you into your spells, or working with beings a lot stronger and older than you much as a general works with his troops. That includes the risk of mutiny or rebellion if you're a bad leader, by the way.

And this is why I hate to be a chaote sometimes: evocation, for example, is a fascinating part of magic.
... but I'd rather create my own entities than summon others'.

I fail to understand the logic which dictates that it is better to work with an entity that was artificially born yesterday, instead of an entity that was born naturally and has governed a particular aspect of nature for hundreds, if not thousands of years.

Humans are such an insignificant corner of the grand scheme of nature that it is foolish to assume that all spirits are a human creation. Indeed, there are some things in the Otherworld that are older than the entire human species. There is, truly, a good purpose for Servitors when they are created properly and used wisely. But you will never create a servitor that can teach you, because it is impossible to impart a knowledge or a skill into your servitor that you do not possess, and foolish to create a servitor that is stronger and smarter than you. Working with natural spirits, however, you can learn much. There are spirits that can teach you everything from mathematics and how to learn any language, to all the little nuances of a particular aspect of magick like what a particular herb can be used for or how to intone a word just the right way to produce a magical effect.

Spirit Work, for all its many aspects, is not just about power and material results, though that is a part of it. It is about wisdom. It is about the countless bits of knowledge that no Adept has ever written down, nor ever will, because it is expected that all Initiates worth their salt will step into the Otherworld, make a name for themselves and earn access to this knowledge the same general way every other wise one of any culture has for countless years. And of those glimpses I have seen for myself, I assure you it is worth it.

Shin had the best information, as always. He's our Proclaimed Resident Evocation Expert.

I am most certainly not that. [confused2] Evocation as it's practiced in the Western Grimoire Tradition isn't even one my main forte's, given that I have a rather different style of Spirit Work. I've just hung around enough old Hermeticists who do this work seriously, and I'm smart enough to pay attention when an Elder speaks whether he is speaking on my forte's or not.



~:Shin:~

[Haqim]

First of all: thank you Shinichi, it's a very good post!
I already knew most of it, but still, it's very informative.

I don't want to go off-topic (because it'd be good if we'd have more traditional evocation topics on this forum), but:

I fail to understand the logic which dictates that it is better to work with an entity that was artificially born yesterday, instead of an entity that was born naturally and has governed a particular aspect of nature for hundreds, if not thousands of years.

Humans are such an insignificant corner of the grand scheme of nature that it is foolish to assume that all spirits are a human creation. Indeed, there are some things in the Otherworld that are older than the entire human species. There is, truly, a good purpose for Servitors when they are created properly and used wisely. But you will never create a servitor that can teach you, because it is impossible to impart a knowledge or a skill into your servitor that you do not possess, and foolish to create a servitor that is stronger and smarter than you. Working with natural spirits, however, you can learn much. There are spirits that can teach you everything from mathematics and how to learn any language, to all the little nuances of a particular aspect of magick like what a particular herb can be used for or how to intone a word just the right way to produce a magical effect.

We have to imply that we all live in an objective universe.
I know it sounds crazy, but still - you just can't know.

Please notice: I do understand everything that you wrote - and I like it!

It's just I've tried "subjective reality"-using methods and I must say: they are impressive!
Some models say that every demon, angel and other entity is only a symbol of this and that part of your (unconscious?) mind.
We just can't ignore this theory.

And let's say there is an "outside world" and there are "other people" - then magic is still a mind-centered thing.
Spiritual entities can be products of the human mind... maybe science will unveil these mysteries, one day.

And if entites are really "mental", then it means that we share them, somehow.
Collective unconscious? Spirit world?
Who knows?

I had / have servitors that could / can do unbelievable things.
A few days ago I witnessed how one of them opened a door for me, for example.
But they pushed people away, cut electricity, stopped entire parties (!), affected human and animal minds, etc, etc...

I want to test goetic demons, too.
If spirits are collective, then yes, they can be very powerful - because, yeah, they are old!

... So I'm very thankful that we have these conversations. [yay]
And I hope one day I'll work with more "traditional" entities and see all the fantastic things that you're talking about.

[Maya The Generator]

http://www.esotericarchives.com

I will just leave it there *casualy walks out of a post*

Praise Teh Sun [cool]

[Haqim]

http://www.esotericarchives.com

I will just leave it there *casualy walks out of a post*

Praise Teh Sun [cool]

Thanks, dude! [thumbup]

[Shinichi]

It's just I've tried "subjective reality"-using methods and I must say: they are impressive!

Consider this. If there are three people standing on the same deck looking at the same mountain, several things are happening. First, the mountain is actually there, and thus it is objective because more than one person observes it truly. Second, every person sees a slightly different view, because none of them are in the exact same spot and thus the view of the mountain is relative. Third, every person experiences a different reaction to the view, so that the perception (the experience) of the mountain is subjective - one person may find the scene beautiful and be deeply moved, another may be discontented by the fact that he is not inside by the warm fire, and yet another may be indifferent.

Perhaps reality is a bit more complex than a strict, black and white objective vs subjective stature, no? But you see, if you are so busy debating the reality of your own perspective, you will often lose touch with the actual reality of the mountain. And if you are so busy determining the nature of the mountain itself, then you will lose touch with your own perspectives, and the experience of the mountain.

In either case, the mountain itself is actually there and is its own thing, with its own perspective of you, and it honestly doesn't give a damn what you think of it. It's been there since before you were born and it will be there long after your ashes have scattered to the winds.

Some models say that every demon, angel and other entity is only a symbol of this and that part of your (unconscious?) mind.
We just can't ignore this theory.

There is a theory which states that all Flying Saucers come from Earth, because Earth is hollow and there is an ancient civilization living under our feet which builds them. There is another theory which states that all Flying Saucers come from a secret Nazi base in Antarctica, where Hitler retired after he faked his death, so that he could rebuild and prepare for the Fourth Reich. There is another theory which states that all of our gods are aliens, from other star systems and other galaxies.

You see, my friend, I can very easily ignore any theory or hypothesis that is either wrong, is only partially and twistedly true, or lacks any real evidence to support its claim. Because reality doesn't care what you believe. At the end of the day something is either true or it isn't, regardless of how simple or complex that truth may be.



~:Shin:~

[Haqim]

Well, Shinichi, I can agree with half of what you're saying, while I disagree with the other half.
Or, to be more precise, I'm too skeptic to accept those statements.

As I can see I'm more of a subjectivist, while you're more of an objectivist, so we could debate things until the End of Days.
It's just futile.

But I can point out the main problems:

In either case, the mountain itself is actually there and is its own thing, with its own perspective of you, and it honestly doesn't give a damn what you think of it. It's been there since before you were born and it will be there long after your ashes have scattered to the winds.

Implying there is a mountain, and it has a perspective.
The mountain exists in my mind. I cannot prove otherwise.
I cannot prove that it was there before I was born, nor that it will be there after I'm dead.

You see, my friend, I can very easily ignore any theory or hypothesis that is either wrong, is only partially and twistedly true, or lacks any real evidence to support its claim. Because reality doesn't care what you believe. At the end of the day something is either true or it isn't, regardless of how simple or complex that truth may be.

As you said, "perhaps reality is a bit more complex than a strict, black and white objective vs subjective stature" and only experience matters, which is right, of course.
And yeah, truth is the other important thing, sure.

But who decides what is truth?
Think about the color-blinds... or the schizophrenics. Or religious people.

Perspectives are what really matters... truth is relative.

I know many people can't accept relativity and chaos, because it makes one feel insecure and unimportant.
And other people also like the high horse of objectivism.

But neither subjectivism, nor objectivism can be verified or falsified, yet only subjectivity seems to be unacceptable for the masses.
People just can't acknowledge the fact that they are alone, imprisoned in their own perspective (and reality?).

For me, magic is a very subjective thing, opposed by science, which is (mostly) objective.

But, as I already said, it's just my subjective opinion.

[RoseRed]

The mountain exists in my mind. I cannot prove otherwise.
I cannot prove that it was there before I was born, nor that it will be there after I'm dead.

We are physical creatures stuck in physical bodies on the physical plane.

If you drive you car at 100mph into a cliff face of this 'imaginary' mountain - you'll go boom in a great big show of flame and destruction. Unless, of course, you choosing to believe the mountain isn't real will allow you to transcend physics and somehow travel through solid matter.

[Haelos]

I understand the point Haqim is trying to make.
It's difficult to get these words out and have someone understand them properly.
Everyone here makes some other great points though too.
I love Shin's metaphor, but even I find a little bit of fault in it. That isn't to say I disagree with it, by any means.

The only thing any human can prove as Truth is their own existence. Whether you look at something subjectively or objectively, both of those outlooks come from within yourself, not without.

[Shinichi]

Implying there is a mountain, and it has a perspective.
The mountain exists in my mind. I cannot prove otherwise.
I cannot prove that it was there before I was born, nor that it will be there after I'm dead.

You can prove that the mountain existed before you were born by researching things that existed before you were born. Maps, pictures, drawings, stories. Lots of things. Through empirical evidence, that is, objectively verifiable evidence, you can very clearly determine whether or not the mountain existed before you were born.

As for your death, well, that's a different matter. But you can always leave your own evidence behind, for others.

But who decides what is truth?
Think about the color-blinds... or the schizophrenics. Or religious people.

Truth decides what is true. Color blinds may not see colors, but the colors are still there. I have no idea what insane people have to do with this discussion. And religious people... As I said, reality doesn't give a damn what you believe about it. Something is either true or it isn't.

Perspectives are what really matters... truth is relative.

One's perceptions and perspectives of the truth are relative. Two psychics may receive a telepathic message via two completely different modes of transference or symbolism, yet the message conveyed is the same. The truth is the same.

I know many people can't accept relativity and chaos, because it makes one feel insecure and unimportant.
And other people also like the high horse of objectivism.

Objectivism isn't a high horse. It's a simple matter to determine whether or not something is real: you check. If you can't tell, you have others help you check, and make an appointment for a therapist. After everyone has checked, the thing checked will either be real or it will not be real. True or false.

If anything, subjectivity is a horse that is very high indeed, to assume that nothing outside your own head is relevant. At least "objectivism" is humble enough to nod its head and yield that something may be wrong, accept that and move on.

But neither subjectivism, nor objectivism can be verified or falsified, yet only subjectivity seems to be unacceptable for the masses.

Both subjectivity and objectivity can easily be studied, with various experiments verified or falsified. This is true in the metaphysical application of these concepts as well. If I Clairvoyantly see that a certain card is one thing or another, I can turn that card over and check it. True or False.

The masses cannot accept subjectivity as an all-truth mode of existence because common sense and logic dictates that idea to be false. Simple as that.

People just can't acknowledge the fact that they are alone, imprisoned in their own perspective (and reality?).

This is am amusing proposition to make after previously bringing up ideas like collective unconsciousness.

What you fail to understand is that reality, like the aforementioned mountain, is its own objective thing independent of you, and yet connected to you. The collective unconscious and similar psychological theories have it only partially correct, but you should have the gist of it anyway. Everyone experiences the same reality, and then projects their experience back into that reality.

The mountain is there. This is truth. The sun is there. This is truth. You can go inside and ignore the mountain, or the sun can be hidden by clouds, but your ignorance does not dismiss the truth that reality is still there.

For me, magic is a very subjective thing, opposed by science, which is (mostly) objective.

Magick and Science are two aspects of the same general thing. The Physical Sciences govern the rules and principles of the material plane, while Magick governs the rules and principles of the spiritual planes. In the old times, in the Egyptian and Greek Priesthoods and even further back into antiquity, these things were one collective science of the natural world. It is a mistake to think they are entirely separate things.

If you really think all of this is an empty debate and I am wrong, then perhaps you may find the courage to test RoseRed's suggestion.



~:Shin:~