which organization to join?

[Hiramsmith]

I am considering the next steps in my occult education. I am fairly well read in the qabbalah and Gnosticism but need more.

Do any of you have experience with the following?
BOTA
Fraternitas LVX Occulta
Esoteric Order of the Golden Dawn

If so could you tell me about your experiences with them?

[Desecrated]

Well. If you have that much money to spend you can send half of it to me and I can tell you what to do.

[Hiramsmith]

I wasn't aware that "troll magick" was a thing, but unseen to have summoned one.

This is the second occult forum I've joined in as many days where I've been ridiculed for asking for help making a decision. Apparently the summoning has something to do with asking about either of those three orders.

Have a great week.

[Nahemah]

Hi Hiram, I can't help much with this, but we do have members with experience who can advise.

It's just a case of waiting for them to come online, we're all scattered round the world,lol and time differences count.

I'm sure you'll get some helpful replies soon. [thumbup]

[RoseRed]

With a handle like Hiram Smith I'm surprised you didn't also list the Freemasons.

Which of those three organizations is going to depend on where you're at currently and what you goals are.

Just showing up and asking like you have - I'm not surprised at the reaction.

Have you done any research into the groups? Have you spoken with people? Why would you take the advice of complete and perfect strangers with such an important decision?

[Nahemah]

I find asking around useful, for the personal experience it gives. [thumbup]

It's wise to be cautious, to enquire if you will it and forums like ours are decent places to do so as it can lead to live contacts and further information from someone who knows about these things from the inside.

I'll check around for you too, see if any of my contacts can help out.

[RoseRed]

And I just saw your intro post. You are a Freemason.

Excellent point, N.

HS, do you know anything about the different groups at all?

From what I've hard BOTA is an excellent source. I haven't really heard too much about the other two.

[Desecrated]

I wasn't aware that "troll magick" was a thing, but unseen to have summoned one.

This is the second occult forum I've joined in as many days where I've been ridiculed for asking for help making a decision. Apparently the summoning has something to do with asking about either of those three orders.

Have a great week.

Sorry about that, I had a little bit of internet PMS.

What i meant was:

You sound like you just want to join a group for joining a group.
These occult groups can be pretty demanding when it comes to time and energy and it's not something you should just take lightly. You don't join the AMORC just because you want to try it, you join that particular organization if you are burning for it.

So can we perhaps start over with some simple questions.
What exactly are you looking for? Kabbalah and Gnosticism are very big subjects and have many many different variations and paths. So what about them are you most excited about, what would you like spending most of your time practicing. Not just learning about but actually practicing it.

[Hiramsmith]

No problem. I'm glad you're here and you bring up great questions to which I'm trying to formulate the best answers.

It's hard to say beyond an instinctive "knowing" that I should be doing more.

I believe that we are all one body / connected in the Hermetic sense, and I guess the one main thing I would like to accomplish is to further unite with God and all the powers that are available to help my fellow human.

There is so much sadness and sickness in the world that even when I pass a car wreck on my commute- and this goes way back to when I was a kid- the phrase "My heart goes out to them" comes to my mind and mouth. I actually feel a warming on my solar plexus. There is something that feels like it needs to connect to them to help them.

In general I want to recapture the wonderment in how I viewed the world the sense of supreme beauty and I feel for some reason that understanding all of the divines laws and his creation will give me the ability to love him more and to experience more love in my life and keep the cycle of giving going.

[Desecrated]

No problem. I'm glad you're here and you bring up great questions to which I'm trying to formulate the best answers.

It's hard to say beyond an instinctive "knowing" that I should be doing more.

I believe that we are all one body / connected in the Hermetic sense, and I guess the one main thing I would like to accomplish is to further unite with God and all the powers that are available to help my fellow human.

There is so much sadness and sickness in the world that even when I pass a car wreck on my commute- and this goes way back to when I was a kid- the phrase "My heart goes out to them" comes to my mind and mouth. I actually feel a warming on my solar plexus. There is something that feels like it needs to connect to them to help them.

In general I want to recapture the wonderment in how I viewed the world the sense of supreme beauty and I feel for some reason that understanding all of the divines laws and his creation will give me the ability to love him more and to experience more love in my life and keep the cycle of giving going.

How about volunteering at a homeless shelter or animal rescue center?

[Hiramsmith]

....and the belittleing continues.....
Anyone have a troll banishment spell?

[RoseRed]

Actually, I think he was serious.

In general I want to recapture the wonderment in how I viewed the world the sense of supreme beauty and I feel for some reason that understanding all of the divines laws and his creation will give me the ability to love him more and to experience more love in my life and keep the cycle of giving going.

It sounds like you want to see the world through childlike eyes filled with awe and wonder again. The secret is simplicity. Stopping to smell the roses. Feeling the wind in your hair, the rain on your face, allowing love and compassion to reign, sitting by a lake, a world in the palm of your hand and infinity in an hour.

There are an awful lot of grimoires in the Ceremonial Magick fields that say you need to be right with God for them to work properly. That's assuming that you're speaking of the God of Abraham. Are you?

[Hiramsmith]

So this things really went off the rails.

Let me point back to the original question. Do any of you have experience with these groups?

Now a second part.
If you are a solitary practitioner what path do you follow?

[Rin]

Not sure why people are being so snide and hostile - he's simply asking people for advice on which, if any, of the listed groups he should investigate. Any field of human endeavor is orders of magnitude easier to learn when the learning takes place under the guidance of an experienced teacher and in the company of fellow students at a similar stage of develop - this is as true with metaphysics as it is with math or engineering or medicine or cooking.

It's a fairly straightforward question - if you have experience with the groups mentioned, then offer as much advice as you're willing to help the OP make his decision. If you don't, then simply don't post. All this disparagement and trolling is not only unproductive, it's plain rude and it makes the forum look bad. You guys should know better.

Hiramsmith, unfortunately I have no direct experience with any of those groups. The little I've heard about BOTA has all been good, for what that's worth. I don't know anything about the assorted branches of the modern incarnation of the Golden Dawn except that there tends to be a fair bit of squabbling between them over which ones are legitimate and so forth, but there are dozens of books published on the Golden Dawn methodology which should give you a good idea of what you're in for, in a practical sense, if you join. I've never heard of Fraternitas LVX Occulta. Sorry I couldn't be of more assistance.

Perhaps you should take a more direct approach - most orders will take in students on a probationary basis either for free or for a token fee, which will allow you to get an overview of what they do, how they operate and the general vibe of the group itself. I wouldn't recommend doing this with all three at once though, that would probably be counterproductive.

Good luck.

[Nahemah]

Not sure why people are being so snide and hostile - he's simply asking people for advice on which, if any, of the listed groups he should investigate. Any field of human endeavor is orders of magnitude easier to learn when the learning takes place under the guidance of an experienced teacher and in the company of fellow students at a similar stage of develop - this is as true with metaphysics as it is with math or engineering or medicine or cooking.

It's a fairly straightforward question - if you have experience with the groups mentioned, then offer as much advice as you're willing to help the OP make his decision. If you don't, then simply don't post. All this disparagement and trolling is not only unproductive, it's plain rude and it makes the forum look bad. You guys should know better.

Agreed and it needs to stop. Now.

Contribute something useful and civil or don't post in this thread again.

@ Hiram: I haven't asked anyone yet, but will do so as soon as I can. [thumbup]

[Hiramsmith]

Not sure why people are being so snide and hostile - he's simply asking people for advice on which, if any, of the listed groups he should investigate. Any field of human endeavor is orders of magnitude easier to learn when the learning takes place under the guidance of an experienced teacher and in the company of fellow students at a similar stage of develop - this is as true with metaphysics as it is with math or engineering or medicine or cooking.

It's a fairly straightforward question - if you have experience with the groups mentioned, then offer as much advice as you're willing to help the OP make his decision. If you don't, then simply don't post. All this disparagement and trolling is not only unproductive, it's plain rude and it makes the forum look bad. You guys should know better.

Hiramsmith, unfortunately I have no direct experience with any of those groups. The little I've heard about BOTA has all been good, for what that's worth. I don't know anything about the assorted branches of the modern incarnation of the Golden Dawn except that there tends to be a fair bit of squabbling between them over which ones are legitimate and so forth, but there are dozens of books published on the Golden Dawn methodology which should give you a good idea of what you're in for, in a practical sense, if you join. I've never heard of Fraternitas LVX Occulta. Sorry I couldn't be of more assistance.

Perhaps you should take a more direct approach - most orders will take in students on a probationary basis either for free or for a token fee, which will allow you to get an overview of what they do, how they operate and the general vibe of the group itself. I wouldn't recommend doing this with all three at once though, that would probably be counterproductive.

Good luck.

Thanks for your assistance. The FLO does have probationer and is based on BOTA but closer to Golden Dawn.
Have a great day.

[BrokenSeeker]

More information might be helpful. Which orders have lodges close to you? Why do you want to join an order? Do you want the structure? You already have the fraternity of the Masons so it seems you are looking for more than brotherhood and charity work which seem to be at least the primary public concern of the Masons. Many of the reasons you listed in a previous post could maybe be accomplished in many ways besides joining an order. So what are the things you believe an order can provide that solo study and practice can't?

I was turned off to the Golden Dawn because they seemed more interested in political squabbles. If your primary interest is in following an order's curriculum to give your endeavors a structural path to follow, there are a couple different books on self-initiation into the Golden Dawn. There is also Donald Kraig's Modern Magic which is highly esteemed for those who wish to learn.

I've hear BOTA is pretty awesome, and considered joining them but I would be joining for community and they don't have a lodge near me.

Something you can work on doing while you are making your decision is to start working on the meditation techniques that will be necessary for practicing magic. There is an amazing thread on fundamental meditation techniques here http://www.occultforum.org/forum/viewto ... 57&t=37025

Good luck in your search.

[DarkSchneider]

I've been questioning this too recently, though given my experience, focus and willpower, I would say it's not best for me to join any official group yet. I know I'm a bus ride away from seeing a Golden Dawn organization but I am hesitant and was warned they could be a fraud. I have their website but I was told it could be a personality cult, from a store owner who had the flyers pinned to his store bulletin.

http://www.orderofthegoldendawn.com/

Anyways, I'm not fond of structure or dogma. Perhaps I will benefit from such ideas in the future but presently I feel the need to do my own thing.

[BrokenSeeker]

I've been questioning this too recently, though given my experience, focus and willpower, I would say it's not best for me to join any official group yet. I know I'm a bus ride away from seeing a Golden Dawn organization but I am hesitant and was warned they could be a fraud. I have their website but I was told it could be a personality cult, from a store owner who had the flyers pinned to his store bulletin.

http://www.orderofthegoldendawn.com/

Anyways, I'm not fond of structure or dogma. Perhaps I will benefit from such ideas in the future but presently I feel the need to do my own thing.

When considering whether or not an organization is a fraud look for typical signs. Do they charge you for minor things (nickel and dime you for every little thing)? Are their dues inordinately high? Are they cagey when you ask them for information about progression and cost? Do they force you to purchase overpriced items directly from them? What is their lineage? (who did the head of the organization study under? Who did that person study under? Is there proof of this or just their word?) Do they tell YOU not to worry about money while constantly trying to get more out of you? What curriculum do they use? Do their explanations and methodology line up with those advocated by prominent, respected magicians? Do they have references from respected sources? Do they resent your questions about their legitimacy?

Any modern organization should be understanding of the difficulties new people face. A good organization is aware of the fraudsters, and will never make you feel bad for making sure you aren't going to be fleeced. A good organization will view it as a positive thing that you are skeptical of them, and that you've put so much thought, time, and research into making sure you choose the correct path. Don't be shy about asking them questions. The most important thing to know when looking for an organization is exactly what you're looking for. This is essential because each organization has a particular culture and organizational focus.

[Cybernetic_Jazz]

If you want to know at least a little about AMORC or BOTA I can help you out there.

Some other orders you may want to do some research on:

Nick Farrell's MOAA - Magical Order Aurora Aurea
Hermetic Golden Dawn (ie. the Cicero's)
Carroll 'Poke' Runyon's OTA - ie. Temple of Astarte
Crowley's A.'.A.'. and OTO if you don't mind a lot of Hindu tantra in your Hermeticism
Servants of the Light a la W.E. Butler and Garreth Knight.
Fellowship of Isis - the Lady of 10,000 Names and her guidance.
SRIx - Societas Rosicruciana In (name your country)
Rosicrucian Fellowship - if you like a lot of astrology (although I don't know how they compare in quantity to CC Zain's Brotherhood of Light - that one seemed to almost OCD every muscle movement in life with it)
Traditional Martinist Order - if you like Pasqually, LCdSM and Papus's work.
The Ordre Reaux Croix triumbrant of Voie Cardiaque, Elus Cohen, and C.·.B.·.C.·.S.·. - if you REALLY wanna go deep on Pasqually, LCdSM, and Papus - add Willermoz for CBCS.
SRICF - IF you don't mind being in Scottish Rite for a LONG time for a possible opportunity to join their Masons-only Rosicrucian order.

[Hadit]

Paying for pseudo-enlightenment is never worth it in the slightest.

[Tiphareth]

I can recommend BOTA. Sound stuff, safe stuff. It provides a good foundation. Lots of teaching. Paul Foster Case was very serious about getting it right. I've come across nothing that was off the rails. He takes a very cautious view of pranayana, and a negative view of Enochian. This bothers some. In my understanding, FLO (which branched from BOTA) includes Enochian.

What you won't get is physical initiation or a lodge. There are sparse study groups and something they call Pronaos.
a spiritual atunement. (You can look into this view web and their site specifically). I have not attended such a function.

I am initiated into two other groups that do have physical lodges. But I continue with BOTA.
Leaders of other schools also have respect for the Material and for Paul Foster Case.

[Mem]

OTO is great, from my experiences. Depends on what your goals are. Communities are always nice.

[Nahemah]

I looked at the site and as far as I can see it's in good order.

I can't possibly tell you this group is legit, though, there's no real way of verifying that online. Dues are always expected from groups like Golden Dawn and as long as those are fairly priced for your teaching then that is not a sign of fraud either, just an honest statement that dues pay for services and teachers. That's legit.

Go visit them or make enquires and see what transpires, those are the only ways to find out what is what for sure.

@Mem, I have OTO friends and we rub along together very well. I quite like OTO philosophies. [thumbup]

[Hadit]

The only group I ever have and will continue to consider applying for is the Temple of Set.