Possible to utilize spirits to alter past or future?

[taijitu2]

Hello all,

From what I understand, psychic communication with spirits works as the following : A entity (be they simple, lower or complex and higher) attaches themselves to a human from the spiritual plane. Because the spiritual plane is "waterless" (timeless) it's reasonable to assume such beings are capable of attaching to someone in the 21st century and after they are expelled through means of spells, exorcisms, et al they return to the spiritual plane with the capacity to then attach to someone living in the past or future.

Now we can imagine even a simple spirit is capable enough to memorize a message. It doesn't even need to surpass one syllable. The message may be along the lines of "Stop, Go, Yes, No,". At the correct moment, the deliverance of a psychic message would have a profound effect.

I'm new to this, but do you all know if occurs? Could it happen without our knowledge. I'd imagine proper incentives to spirits would be involved yet I fail to see how some old master from antiquity or unknown master in the present has been unable to achieve this.

Or am I overestimating the ability or willpower for a spirit to bother with such things?

[Stukov]

You don't need another spirit to do it, knowledge (of the self) transcends time. You just have to link your present self to the future and future self to the past.

[Desecrated]

But why?

[RaineAshford]

But why?

Immortality is the big one I can think of. Because time is predestined you can teach yourself expediently by how a message to yourself is translated.

[taijitu2]

But why?

Don't ask why, but why not!

I was thinking of the degenerate state mankind is in, particularly in the West and thought how great it would be to able to change it.

[Stukov]

Actually the fundamental answer to "But, why?" is you are able to make better decisions. Imagine all the experience and knowledge that you have by the time you are 100 years old, imagine how you felt if "I knew then what I know now", now imagine in many ways you can. Decision points, knowledge, and anything you know later, you can have access to now. Where it gets really tricky (and powerful) is being able to pull knowledge from yourself in alternate realities, what would I have learned going down the right path vs the left? When you learn to do this, you can know, you can have the knowledge from both experiences.

The only real hard part is you can get too meta in your own head, forgetting to live in the here and now rather than other times or other places. So you have to balance between the here and there.

[taijitu2]

Actually the fundamental answer to "But, why?" is you are able to make better decisions. Imagine all the experience and knowledge that you have by the time you are 100 years old, imagine how you felt if "I knew then what I know now", now imagine in many ways you can. Decision points, knowledge, and anything you know later, you can have access to now. Where it gets really tricky (and powerful) is being able to pull knowledge from yourself in alternate realities, what would I have learned going down the right path vs the left? When you learn to do this, you can know, you can have the knowledge from both experiences.

The only real hard part is you can get too meta in your own head, forgetting to live in the here and now rather than other times or other places. So you have to balance between the here and there.

Interesting point, if man begins to alter his present by living too much in the future.

[Shinichi]

There are numerous flaws in your theory. Start with the fact that the plane where most spirits live is not actually "timeless," couple that with the fact that Time itself is not quite what you think it is, and then how easy it is to simply See the future and alter it from where you are - yup, that's a few of the major ones.

Coming up with new ideas and researching them is fabulous, but doing so effectively requires a strong foundation in the subject that you are trying to develop.



~:Shin:~

[taijitu2]

There are numerous flaws in your theory. Start with the fact that the plane where most spirits live is not actually "timeless," couple that with the fact that Time itself is not quite what you think it is, and then how easy it is to simply See the future and alter it from where you are - yup, that's a few of the major ones.

Coming up with new ideas and researching them is fabulous, but doing so effectively requires a strong foundation in the subject that you are trying to develop.



~:Shin:~

Time is a perception I suppose.

[Stukov]

There are numerous flaws in your theory. Start with the fact that the plane where most spirits live is not actually "timeless," couple that with the fact that Time itself is not quite what you think it is, and then how easy it is to simply See the future and alter it from where you are - yup, that's a few of the major ones.

Coming up with new ideas and researching them is fabulous, but doing so effectively requires a strong foundation in the subject that you are trying to develop.



~:Shin:~

Unless you are calling me a time lord, I was speaking from experience?

[Desecrated]

Actually the fundamental answer to "But, why?" is you are able to make better decisions. Imagine all the experience and knowledge that you have by the time you are 100 years old, imagine how you felt if "I knew then what I know now", now imagine in many ways you can. Decision points, knowledge, and anything you know later, you can have access to now. Where it gets really tricky (and powerful) is being able to pull knowledge from yourself in alternate realities, what would I have learned going down the right path vs the left? When you learn to do this, you can know, you can have the knowledge from both experiences.

The only real hard part is you can get too meta in your own head, forgetting to live in the here and now rather than other times or other places. So you have to balance between the here and there.

But that kinda defeats the fun part of life. Not knowing what happens next and not knowing how to handle it.
Although it would be nice to download information from separate realities. Telling my self to study one subject and then deciding to study something else, thus creating two separate time lines and just downloading the information from both of them without having to do all the work.

[EternalReturn]

Considering that wisdom and knowledge are two different things - could it be possible to "download" wisdom that way to be prepared for the future but not know it? But it seems as cheating either way [greensmile]

[Shinichi]

Unless you are calling me a time lord, I was speaking from experience?

I was talking to the OP. Should have quoted. [gz]

Time is a perception I suppose.

Nope. The experience of Time is relative to the individual experiencing it, but Time itself is something else entirely.

Considering that wisdom and knowledge are two different things - could it be possible to "download" wisdom that way to be prepared for the future but not know it? But it seems as cheating either way [greensmile]

Downloading the knowledge is easier. Wisdom comes not just from knowledge, but the experiences that knowledge allows. Your future self has learned much and experienced much, but while you could download knowledge about the experience, even knowledge about the wisdom, would you really fully understand it without having gone through similar experiences yourself?



~:Shin:~

[EternalReturn]

If I extrapolated correctly from what you said, it makes no sense to gather one thing from the future or the past but to live it yourself in the present or find a way to gather it all.

But if I think about it for a second it seems to go like this:

Knowledge leads to experience and wisdom. Experience leads to wisdom and knowledge. Wisdom leads to knowledge and experience.

If one is gathered, it will lead to the other if one should willingly utilize "weapon of choice". Or am I missing something?

[Shinichi]

If I extrapolated correctly from what you said, it makes no sense to gather one thing from the future or the past but to live it yourself in the present or find a way to gather it all.

Oh, there is much value in gathering information from the future and most especially the past, but you do live in the present and you may find difficulty understanding some of it.

I've learned all kinds of things from Seeing my future, some good and some bad. I've seen children I will not have for years, I've seen a beautiful property that will one day be mine (and was even given a method to magically trace it down, once the time is right to go there), and many other things. I've also watched the death of my father, and many other tragedies, that I will have to experience all over again once they come to pass.

And I've also learned many things I couldn't make sense of. Many times, we have no reference point for information gathered from the future. It's like trying to learn calculus while you're in an arithmetic class - without algebra, calculus makes no sense. So you have to learn the intermediary lessons, and then the later things do make sense.

But you should especially learn from the past. History is important and extremely valuable.

But if I think about it for a second it seems to go like this:

Knowledge leads to experience and wisdom. Experience leads to wisdom and knowledge. Wisdom leads to knowledge and experience.

If one is gathered, it will lead to the other if one should willingly utilize "weapon of choice". Or am I missing something?

That's a nice summary of it. You just have to think about gaps in the process - learning one thing without understanding the prerequisite lessons is difficult, to say the least. There's a natural order to learning and growth, which is why most education systems are progressive, building upon previous lessons to expand your knowledge and experience further.



~:Shin:~

[EternalReturn]

I see. I have just figured out that I was seeking the easy way concerning this. I have put some thought into this and I really would like to be able to see into the future, other dimension or past lives and learn from it and even if I know I can and will survive some traumas and a similar "negative" situations there is this problem of living it twice. To know before the time comes. This concerns me a bit. If I may ask, how did you handle it?
And thank you for insight it made some order in my thoughts and inspired me to think about it more deeply.

[Shinichi]

If I may ask, how did you handle it?

Fortitude. Magical Equipoise. There are many reasons why the initiate is required to attain this special state of inner balance and inner strength, from being able to withstand the taunting and theatrics and potent energy of powerful spirits, to having a greater natural defense due to your balanced aura, to being able to better handle hardship.

It doesn't really make it any easier. The problems are the same, I just became strong enough to endure when I can, and survive when I can't.



~:Shin:~

[EternalReturn]

Then it is a good thing that I stay away from advanced methods while trying to find the level cap concerning fortitude
But it's good to know what lies beyond.

[Desecrated]

Nope. The experience of Time is relative to the individual experiencing it, but Time itself is something else entirely.

Last time i checked, nobody really knows what the heck time is.
And time has a stupid way of being many different things at the same time, especially being different things at different levels of existence.
So speaking of absolutes when it comes to the massive subject of TIME, might be a bit rash.

This is of course assuming that time/life/the universe IS anything other then our individual experience [grin]

[Shinichi]

Nope. The experience of Time is relative to the individual experiencing it, but Time itself is something else entirely.

Last time i checked, nobody really knows what the heck time is.
And time has a stupid way of being many different things at the same time, especially being different things at different levels of existence.
So speaking of absolutes when it comes to the massive subject of TIME, might be a bit rash.

This is of course assuming that time/life/the universe IS anything other then our individual experience [grin]

Defining the fine details of time can be tricky, but those of us who are Seers and have spent a lot of time Dancing on The Web tend to have a better perspective on it than scientists and such who don't even know where to begin. Like good martial artists usually can't explain to you the mathematical physics of their movements very well, but they can tell you how the movements feel and what to do with them.

And, noting that there is a difference between the experience of a subject and the subject itself is not really speaking of absolutes in regard to the subject. It's just a logical distinction.



~:Shin:~

[Desecrated]

And, noting that there is a difference between the experience of a subject and the subject itself is not really speaking of absolutes in regard to the subject. It's just a logical distinction.

Assuming that your experiences are real.
What you perceive to be true might as well just be the fictions of your own imagination.

[taijitu2]

It does get very metaphysical. My takeaway is live in the moment, so that your future is the best it can be.

[RoseRed]

There's a difference between reading about what an orange tastes like and eating the orange.

[Stukov]

Downloading the knowledge is easier. Wisdom comes not just from knowledge, but the experiences that knowledge allows. Your future self has learned much and experienced much, but while you could download knowledge about the experience, even knowledge about the wisdom, would you really fully understand it without having gone through similar experiences yourself? ~:Shin:~

Generally speaking what you get is not detailed thoughts, but more a deep understanding of what you should or should not do. At least when you are trying to call on it. It isn't like you use it for getting lottery numbers, though it can be used to increase your potential to guess random things (I worked at security at a casino a while back and when I was in good practice and bored at work I would watch roulette and could get the number with 75% accuracy really focusing and I think 10 straight was my best).

The other affect is you will have tons of things in your dreams that will show up that day or way later, depending on its significance. My best theory about this is that since your consciousness is sitting in the past and future, there are leaks of random things you experience. At first I thought it may have been cognitive bias where you dream about something then are more likely to notice it, but from my experiences there were things that weren't things that would be something you notice or not, such as specific scenes from movies you see for the first time, news events that you can't predict, and many others.

For a while I was wondering about the paradoxical nature of the future. Does the future come true because I saw it and because I saw it my actions led it to become a "self-fulfilling prophecy"? What I mean is, if I see something of the future that I experience in the future, if I change the present so that future exists, how did I pass the information back? Eventually I realized that having consciousness in the past/future doesn't preclude seeing the future through other means, which seems to have a different set or rules. There appears to be multiple ways to see or change past/future.

[Stukov]

There's a difference between reading about what an orange tastes like and eating the orange.

There is, but there are ways to induce an empathetic experience. It has been a long time for me, but I used to be very very very empathetic to where I could feel not just the emotions of others, but I would have a type of synthesis to their experiences. If they had a pain from a past rolled ankle, I would as well. If they were sucking on a lemon, my mouth would pucker. These would occur with me in the blind, such as in another room, or even over the internet.

For your example of the orange, if you have never tasted an orange, it doesn't mean that you could have a reaction to taste through this manner, because your body/brain will mimic what someone else has felt absent the stimuli for yourself.