Chaos and Tarot?

[Evolian]

I've just recently gotten into this occult stuff, and have found myself drawn primarily toward chaos magic and tarot. I'm doing the meditation exercises in Liber MMM and working with the cards to begin communicating with parts of my brain that I've left dormant for years. I see very little overlap between the chaos community and tarot and was wondering if there are resources I'm overlooking or reasons this is an unpopular combination. Thanks.

[Cybernetic_Jazz]

Peter Carroll with Liber Null seemed to suggest that you couldn't shuffle the cards that well, ie. he believed that past a certain point the subconscious would lose its card count and what you'd have is meaningless. That tends to make it one of the less attractive types of divining perhaps if someone is of the Illuminates of Thanateros persuasion of chaos magic.

Also, as far as the Kaballah/Qabalah doctrine in the tarot, I tend to think Qabalah tends to go in the opposite direction of chaos in that it's an attempt to wrangle a map of reality out of the inner realms. If you look at the Golden Dawn diaspora schools who are best known for their esoteric study of the tarot it's extremely ordered, traditional WMT (heavily pinned to the Sefir Yetzirah), and rigorous alchemy, astrology, and neoplatonist business - not unenjoyable for a lot of us but definitely not something that most people of the chaos persuasion would enjoy unless they're by and large traditional magicians with side-interests in chaos application. Usually at that point though they'd identify as Hermetic magicians rather than chaos magicians.

[Evolian]

Didn't know that about Liber Null and card counting- not that far yet- but I've had the same thought, and actually made it a point early on to look at the cards and shuffle sloppily to retain an unconscious count. The stuff you mentioned- kabbalah, rotely memorized astrological correspondences, etc- are exactly why I lean toward chaos instead of Hermeticism (so far). It's also why I'm looking for alternative approaches to tarot, which I'm trying to use as a means of imprinting a symbolic, archetypal, and pictorial vocabulary to allow my unconscious/right-hemisphere to begin to speak again. Tarot seems perfect for this, but maybe there are other tools I'n overlooking?

[Desecrated]

Didn't know that about Liber Null and card counting- not that far yet- but I've had the same thought, and actually made it a point early on to look at the cards and shuffle sloppily to retain an unconscious count. The stuff you mentioned- kabbalah, rotely memorized astrological correspondences, etc- are exactly why I lean toward chaos instead of Hermeticism (so far). It's also why I'm looking for alternative approaches to tarot, which I'm trying to use as a means of imprinting a symbolic, archetypal, and pictorial vocabulary to allow my unconscious/right-hemisphere to begin to speak again. Tarot seems perfect for this, but maybe there are other tools I'n overlooking?

No, you are absolutely right. I just finished going through the giant tarot deck, card by card doing daily meditations and writing everything down.
It got me tuned in to my graphic side of the mind. Now all the sudden I notice colors and details that I didn't used to do.

We live in a society where christianity is the biggest religion and it has been for a very long time. Learning to recognize the catholic and Jewish traits of the tarot deck will only help you understand our society better since these are the building blocks of our world.

[Evolian]

We live in a society where christianity is the biggest religion and it has been for a very long time. Learning to recognize the catholic and Jewish traits of the tarot deck will only help you understand our society better since these are the building blocks of our world.

I lived in an Orthodox Jewish community for a while and was raised around it. Also came a hair's breadth from converting to Catholicism not terribly long ago, so I feel ahead of the curve on that stuff.
And I'm glad you mentioned it, bc those elements have kept me from getting further into Hermeticism, which I think I'm otherwise suited for. If I wanted kabbalah, guardian angels, and adonai, I'd be at mads or in a shul right now. But those symbols don't resonate, and I'm still trying to reconcile it in my head. Thinking tarot may help with that as well, linking it all on a symbolic, pre-rational level.

[magari]

The tarot doesn't have to have anything to do with the church if you don't want it to.

The tarot represents a pattern all paradigms recognize in some shape or form.

[Phaedra]

The tarot doesn't have to have anything to do with the church if you don't want it to.

The tarot represents a pattern all paradigms recognize in some shape or form.

I see tarot simply as a tool for getting contact with my subconscioussness and have experienced it as a working tool.

Paradigm is indeed very important part of all practice. I don´t see much value in doing something just because it has to be done or something.

Things have more value when you use them and not vice versa.

Same goes with churches and religions.

[BrokenSeeker]

I am beginning to work with Chaos magick and from what I've read there is a generally negative disposition toward divination in general amongst Chaos magicians, but they seem to be dismissive primarily of "divining the future". I see divination differently. I see it less as trying to figure out the future, and more about pulling connections between different facets of reality, or a situation, out of my subconscious. Being able to then factor these connections into my critical analysis of a given situation, or my life in general, allows me to make more informed decisions, with a clearer vision of how those decisions will work out in the future.

So for me I don't see it as being so necessary to let my subconscious "pull the cards it wants me to see", rather I find value in allowing my subconscious to be triggered by the random cards I pull. So if I pull a negative read, it's not that my future regarding a given issue is negative. But it allows me to make connections with possible negatives at play, or pitfalls my subconscious knows about but my conscious mind hasn't yet thought about. This is why I don't have a problem with asking a single question and getting a negative read, and then asking the same question and getting a positive read. Both reads pull valuable insights out of my subconscious.

I see divination as the yin to enchanting's yang. With enchanting (yang), the goal is to submerge your conscious will into the subconscious so that it can be made manifest. With divination (yin) the goal is to use insight from the subconscious to inform your consciousness in every day life.

But that's just my personal perspective. I'm no expert by any means.

[Phaedra]

But that's just my personal perspective. I'm no expert by any means.

I enjoyed reading your post and in many parts I agree with the view you have to tarot.

Just for saying something else, I will quote this last sentence of your post by saying to it, that too often magicians seem to attach this "i am not an expert" point of view to their comments instead of being masters of their own magical practice.

Too dogmatic way to watch things only make mind attached and dogmatic.

I think that the most common "sin" of magicians is "lack of perspective" aka the way to underestimate their own practice and fetsihize some others.

Cause we are Chaotes we can draw from undefined Chaos itself. All divinities, religious beliefs and paradigmas are tools for success, not attachments which enslave us.

[BrokenSeeker]

But that's just my personal perspective. I'm no expert by any means.

I enjoyed reading your post and in many parts I agree with the view you have to tarot.

Just for saying something else, I will quote this last sentence of your post by saying to it, that too often magicians seem to attach this "i am not an expert" point of view to their comments instead of being masters of their own magical practice.

Too dogmatic way to watch things only make mind attached and dogmatic.

I think that the most common "sin" of magicians is "lack of perspective" aka the way to underestimate their own practice and fetsihize some others.

Cause we are Chaotes we can draw from undefined Chaos itself. All divinities, religious beliefs and paradigmas are tools for success, not attachments which enslave us.

I agree with you phaedra. I guess my main reason behind my "not an expert" disclaimer is simply that I'm still very new to all this, so my ideas aren't fully developed. It's sort of a "I reserve the right to change my mind" attitude.

Thanks for the reminder to avoid dogmatism though. Coming from a very dogmatic religious background it's good for me to be reminded that such an attitude doesn't apply here.

[Desecrated]

It's sort of a "I reserve the right to change my mind" attitude.

That's pretty much the definition of chaos magick.

[Phaedra]

It's sort of a "I reserve the right to change my mind" attitude.

That's pretty much the definition of chaos magick.

Agreed with this one! [thumbup]

[BrokenSeeker]

It's sort of a "I reserve the right to change my mind" attitude.

That's pretty much the definition of chaos magick.

Which is why I figured it would be a good place to start. It seems like an approach to magick that is perfect for the way I learn. Try this, try that, see what works. I hate the "my way or the highway" sort of attitude that accompanies many of the more rigid approaches. Felt too much like school. Chaos magick feels more like life.

[Phaedra]

It's sort of a "I reserve the right to change my mind" attitude.

That's pretty much the definition of chaos magick.

Which is why I figured it would be a good place to start. It seems like an approach to magick that is perfect for the way I learn. Try this, try that, see what works. I hate the "my way or the highway" sort of attitude that accompanies many of the more rigid approaches. Felt too much like school. Chaos magick feels more like life.

That's very much so to me too. All the schools and traditions try to offer you ready made dogma with certain philosophy and practices.

Chaos does not have central belief, dogma nor practice. That's why it's best for those like me who are more interested about practical methods than philosophies.

Earlier somebody mentioned divinity and tarot. In Chaos there is no divinity in anything itself.

[Cam Revillot]

Maybe I just don't know enough about it but isn't the point how you interpret what you get? Not drawing the exact right card?

[Nahemah]

I am beginning to work with Chaos magick and from what I've read there is a generally negative disposition toward divination in general amongst Chaos magicians, but they seem to be dismissive primarily of "divining the future". I see divination differently. I see it less as trying to figure out the future, and more about pulling connections between different facets of reality, or a situation, out of my subconscious. Being able to then factor these connections into my critical analysis of a given situation, or my life in general, allows me to make more informed decisions, with a clearer vision of how those decisions will work out in the future.

So for me I don't see it as being so necessary to let my subconscious "pull the cards it wants me to see", rather I find value in allowing my subconscious to be triggered by the random cards I pull. So if I pull a negative read, it's not that my future regarding a given issue is negative. But it allows me to make connections with possible negatives at play, or pitfalls my subconscious knows about but my conscious mind hasn't yet thought about. This is why I don't have a problem with asking a single question and getting a negative read, and then asking the same question and getting a positive read. Both reads pull valuable insights out of my subconscious.

I see divination as the yin to enchanting's yang. With enchanting (yang), the goal is to submerge your conscious will into the subconscious so that it can be made manifest. With divination (yin) the goal is to use insight from the subconscious to inform your consciousness in every day life.

Excellent post. Well said.

Some Chaos Magick authors like Peter Carroll are also scientists/ mathematicians by profession and thus they tend towards focusing on how to break with numerical rationality, to liberate the subconscious self.

Other writers are not this way inclined, using different foci and methodologies and as Phadra says and others agree, there is no one central dogma.

If you want Classic Chaos IOT methods then writers like Mr. Carroll are for you, if not, then there are other ways and other writers, other systems of thought you can work with. Or you can do it by combination of ideas or your own gathered ideas.

Some decks are way more religiously themed than others, pick one that has symbolism you like or are drawn to, avoid the types you are not, or not. [geek2]

It's all good, really. [greensmile]

[minervajane]

So for me I don't see it as being so necessary to let my subconscious "pull the cards it wants me to see", rather I find value in allowing my subconscious to be triggered by the random cards I pull. So if I pull a negative read, it's not that my future regarding a given issue is negative. But it allows me to make connections with possible negatives at play, or pitfalls my subconscious knows about but my conscious mind hasn't yet thought about. This is why I don't have a problem with asking a single question and getting a negative read, and then asking the same question and getting a positive read. Both reads pull valuable insights out of my subconscious..

I've found the Thoth deck to work very well as BrokenSeeker describes, although I felt somewhat of a slight "defining of future events" as I used the cards that made me a bit uneasy. In other words, instead of divining what may come, I felt I was defining what may come. I no longer use them but think they were an excellent study as far as archetypes and a great when used for meditation. They are also a good philosophical study for the "fool's journey." 78 Degrees of Wisdom and Crowley's Book of Thoth were worth reading, IMO.

I occationally consult the I Ching and feel I get more clear and friendly advice. It feels like the clarity comes from the complete randomness of the method itself and I'm a lot more comfortable with that.

[Analytic13]

The element of chaos..is only in the unknowns of tarot...as you become knowledgeable and aware..you remove chaos..and replace it with order...

When you have knowledge and awareness..you will have to go out of your way to have chaos be present with you..otherwise you will feel as if everything is correct..and everything fits..thus you may find it possible to just follow your own category of chaos..and thus are you a chaos magician..and sometimes you can just act random..which is indeed a means of going out of your way..or hiding things from your awareness.

But it is soley true.. that as you become more aware..there is less chaos..and more order in general..as a theory of relativity.