I recommend reading The Picatrix

[Desecrated]

Back in the day when such grimoires were written, these things were far easier to do mainly because of the lack of all these laws, even if one did these in secret.

Absolutely. The inclusion of cats in spells and pharmacy is a showcase of the attitude towards animals back then. Cat brain is mentioned in the picatrix, in the magus , in the 3 books of agrippa and in the Grimorum verum.
It's not mentioned in the 'long lost friend' but coffin nails are, so necromancy (using human body parts) was not unheard of in the 19th century.

Wolfs were everywhere and in some countries the king would actually pay the citizens to kill them. Dogs were not worth much more.
And of course we have to remember that this is christian magic/jewish magic and the sacrificial use of animals are in both the old and the new testaments. Goats and rams being used almost at every holiday and doves are still sacrificed in some Jewish sects and communities.

Today we frown upon eating pets, but back in the middle ages it was quite common here in Europe. We did almost starve to death a couple of times so the inclusions of beloved animals in historical cooking recipes are not unheard of. Especially in England/France there are some amazingly bizarre recipes for almost everything that moved.

And things like animal rights would have been thought of as completely silly. The fact that some people today have a hard time watching a hen being killed would not resonate in that society. Santeria practitioners use roosters in summoning spells all the time and it hasn't been a problem up until modern times. in fact the exclusion of blood/gore from ceremonial magic is a pretty modern invention.
In the 'Sixth and Seventh Books of Moses' there is also some ritual killing of doves, But I guess if you are willing to summon demons, a bit of animal cruelty is pretty low on your list of sins.

Although it should probably be mentioned that the Picatrix is supposedly written by the Moors; dogs are actually haram in islam, and not eaten or commonly kept as pets. Cats are not haram but some scholars points to a haddit saying that the commercial selling of cats and dogs are forbidden. So it is perplexing to find it so casually discussed.

[Nahemah]

This is also something that people make take offense to, and members might actually report you for talking about this subject on this forum. Members have been banned for less.

Not really. We ban for abusive behaviour, we also ban for consistent and re-occuring unwillingness to adhere to posting protocols and we ban for hate speech among other UK prosecutable offences.

We do also have to be careful about certain subjects, but this one has context and is germane to the notoriety of the book being discussed.

Your codecil regarding this was very well put and means there is no need to make any additional comment. [thumbup]

I've never read the Picatrix, as far as I can recall, but you make it sound intriguing, Desecrated.

[cyberdemon]

Absolutely. The inclusion of cats in spells and pharmacy is a showcase of the attitude towards animals back then. Cat brain is mentioned in the picatrix, in the magus , in the 3 books of agrippa and in the Grimorum verum.
It's not mentioned in the 'long lost friend' but coffin nails are, so necromancy (using human body parts) was not unheard of in the 19th century.

Wolfs were everywhere and in some countries the king would actually pay the citizens to kill them. Dogs were not worth much more.
And of course we have to remember that this is christian magic/jewish magic and the sacrificial use of animals are in both the old and the new testaments. Goats and rams being used almost at every holiday and doves are still sacrificed in some Jewish sects and communities.

Muslims have that annual Eid-ul-Adha where they sacrifice a four-legged hoofed(?) animal, too.

Today we frown upon eating pets, but back in the middle ages it was quite common here in Europe. We did almost starve to death a couple of times so the inclusions of beloved animals in historical cooking recipes are not unheard of. Especially in England/France there are some amazingly bizarre recipes for almost everything that moved.

Someone in my family up and ate his pet rooster a couple of weeks ago and it disgusted me. I mean I love chicken, it's my favourite protein. But eating an animal that you should have an emotional attachment to? No thanks.

And things like animal rights would have been thought of as completely silly. The fact that some people today have a hard time watching a hen being killed would not resonate in that society. Santeria practitioners use roosters in summoning spells all the time and it hasn't been a problem up until modern times. in fact the exclusion of blood/gore from ceremonial magic is a pretty modern invention.
In the 'Sixth and Seventh Books of Moses' there is also some ritual killing of doves, But I guess if you are willing to summon demons, a bit of animal cruelty is pretty low on your list of sins.

Yeah, I've killed worse already. I won't go about doing it intentionally but as an acceptable result it's.. acceptable. I hardly think putting up souls/bodies as an offering is feasible.

Although it should probably be mentioned that the Picatrix is supposedly written by the Moors; dogs are actually haram in islam, and not eaten or commonly kept as pets. Cats are not haram but some scholars points to a haddit saying that the commercial selling of cats and dogs are forbidden. So it is perplexing to find it so casually discussed.

I've the POV that the hadis are on the same level as the talmud. Sayings and stuff are human constructs and human explanations and so on, especially if we consider any of the root books as divinely inspired. There's a very human "need" to associate a human figure to anything that leads to worshipping that human instead of the god. Christians are ending up worshipping Jesus, Muslims are worshipping Mohammed, etc. That needs to stop. Sure, we've got examples of god-form taking up a human-form, for example in Hinduism... but still. An aspect of god isn't ALL of god. Does that make sense?

As for the alchemy/code part, I agree. I mean we've gotten this coding in stuff as mundane as Shakespeare's witchcraft. Tooth of wolf, uh, something's maw, something, something, but they're all different "names" for plants? So it's either that we're reading about things with different names. Or if we're looking in the way of chemistry, bile..? Bile has a ton of chems in it. Sodium, potassium, their taurocholates, etc. Will substituting what the book wants with the actual compositions of them on a chemical basis work?

Away from analysis, I've a question. Where do I find a proper star-chart with specific dates on when so-and-so events for the "seven celestial spheres" happen?

[Desecrated]

Muslims have that annual Eid-ul-Adha where they sacrifice a four-legged hoofed(?) animal, too.

"This tradition accounts for the slaughter of more than 100 million animals in only two days of Eid. In Pakistan alone nearly 10 million animals are slaughtered on Eid days costing over US$3 billion."

WOW!

I've the POV that the hadis are on the same level as the talmud. Sayings and stuff are human constructs and human explanations and so on, especially if we consider any of the root books as divinely inspired. There's a very human "need" to associate a human figure to anything that leads to worshipping that human instead of the god. Christians are ending up worshipping Jesus, Muslims are worshipping Mohammed, etc. That needs to stop. Sure, we've got examples of god-form taking up a human-form, for example in Hinduism... but still. An aspect of god isn't ALL of god. Does that make sense?

Yeah, haddits are weird. some of them seem to really stick and others are just completely ignored.
And religion is even weirder.

As for the alchemy/code part, I agree. I mean we've gotten this coding in stuff as mundane as Shakespeare's witchcraft. Tooth of wolf, uh, something's maw, something, something, but they're all different "names" for plants? So it's either that we're reading about things with different names. Or if we're looking in the way of chemistry, bile..? Bile has a ton of chems in it. Sodium, potassium, their taurocholates, etc. Will substituting what the book wants with the actual compositions of them on a chemical basis work?

That is a really good question.
I have to read it again with that in mind.

Away from analysis, I've a question. Where do I find a proper star-chart with specific dates on when so-and-so events for the "seven celestial spheres" happen?

This is going to sound weird. But the Llewellyn astrological planer is actually pretty accurate and fairly recommended by some serious astrologers.
http://www.cafeastrology.com/ is another great site for us lazy people.

[Nahemah]

http://www.astro.com/

Astro Dienst is solid and you can set up a free account to access all sorts of features.

The learning resources thread here, has lots of Astrological and Astronomical info :

http://www.occultforum.org/forum/viewto ... 57&t=36197

It has cafeastrology, astrodienst and some other site links on it, but there are more out there to be added, of varying degrees of complexity.

[cyberdemon]

Well it seems we're well on the path to decoding the codes, then.

But um, you guys confused me. I ended up looking at all these astrological things and their interpretations. It wasn't until I realized it's astronomy is the actual snake in the boot that I found what we'll need.. And we need positions of stars and things at current time & future, without any interpretation about them. The source data is needed, not the result of someone else's calculation. We already have that: this book.

[Nahemah]

And we need positions of stars and things at current time & future, without any interpretation about them.

I think I included stellarium on the thread, it can project backwards and forwards by thousands of years, but it takes a little playing with to get used to the functions.

It's basically a star map, that you can use to view the skies from anywhere in the world. Past, present and future.

There are other programs and sites which do this too.

I watch the skies, always have and I work with positional influences. I don't offer Astrological services, but am trained in Astrology, natal and otherwise.

Anything more specific?

There is a lot more I can add, but it helps to know what folk want.

Are you working from the Picatrix?

I can't remember off hand, but think this is in one of the threads, might be useful to you:

http://www.renaissanceastrology.com/ast ... agick.html

[cyberdemon]

If I get to be really specific.. let me pull up something random as an example.

...iIf you want to have a person whom you love to come to you
in a hurry, draw the following symbol on a new piece of cloth
on the day of Venus and in its hour, and while the ascendant is the
second phase of Taurus with Venus in it. Burn the piece of cloth from one
end and mention the name of the person in question. As a
result, he will come quickly to the place of the talisman. This
symbol emerges when Venus is at its peak strength and in this phase...

It's a complicated and lazy request but surely there's something that makes it painfully plain when these events are about to happen next.

[Nahemah]

Planetary hours, classic Western Ceremonialism. You are being lazy, lol, these sites have basic info on them:

http://www.renaissanceastrology.com/pla ... cle.html#C

First of all, planetary hours are location-specific, so make sure that you've selected the appropriate location...Note that a Planetary Day starts at the moment of sunrise on the given date in the selected location and ends with the next sunrise in this location. So Planetary Days do not coincide with the common calendar days.

The length of a Planetary Hour is not equal to 60 minutes, in most cases.

http://www.lunarium.co.uk/planets/hours.jsp

http://www.lunarium.co.uk/articles/plan ... d-days.jsp

There is a lot more information on this elsewhere too. Big subject, actually, once you dive in.

[cyberdemon]

Perfect! This is why we have computers, blessed be electricity.
edit: i now have a cool planetary hour icon in my phone's status bar wooo

[Cybernetic_Jazz]

Sounds fascinating.

I just pre-ordered the 2016 JMG edition of the Complete Golden Dawn - I've heard nothing but good things about his work already and you're reminding me that I'll have to grab a copy of Picatrix as well when I have the chance.

I'm finding time is getting a little tougher for reading, lost my kindle somehow so I jumped on my MP Hall Lectures on Ancient Philosophy. Not sure if I'll try to slug through the Complete Golden Dawn cover to cover but I can see that anytime I think I'm finally coming to the end of a reading list it just grows larger. One of the reasons I'm glad to be here.

[RockDemon]

I have some astrology questions and wanted to post them into a new topic but since you started discussing it here , let me ask those here.
I found out that actual astronomical data and zodiacal data are usually different. I mean the following. For example today 30.12.15. Astronomically the moon is in it's waning gibbous stage and is in the constellation of Leo. At 08:56PM it passes the Sextans and returns to Leo at 10:46PM. However Astrologically it is in it's Last Quarter stage and is in the Scorpio. Would you please explain me in the details what's the specific differences of these and which one do you use for spells ?

[Desecrated]

I have some astrology questions and wanted to post them into a new topic but since you started discussing it here , let me ask those here.
I found out that actual astronomical data and zodiacal data are usually different. I mean the following. For example today 30.12.15. Astronomically the moon is in it's waning gibbous stage and is in the constellation of Leo. At 08:56PM it passes the Sextans and returns to Leo at 10:46PM. However Astrologically it is in it's Last Quarter stage and is in the Scorpio. Would you please explain me in the details what's the specific differences of these and which one do you use for spells ?

Dude, that is a massive subject your touching on. I don't think anybody is going to be able to explain it over a webpage.
You also have to consider your own naval chart. Venus is in scorpio right now, which is great if you are a virgo, but not so great if you are a Taurus.

Just look at the amount of data 1 week carries:

http://www.cafeastrology.com/thisweekinastrology.html

[RockDemon]

I have some astrology questions and wanted to post them into a new topic but since you started discussing it here , let me ask those here.
I found out that actual astronomical data and zodiacal data are usually different. I mean the following. For example today 30.12.15. Astronomically the moon is in it's waning gibbous stage and is in the constellation of Leo. At 08:56PM it passes the Sextans and returns to Leo at 10:46PM. However Astrologically it is in it's Last Quarter stage and is in the Scorpio. Would you please explain me in the details what's the specific differences of these and which one do you use for spells ?

Dude, that is a massive subject your touching on. I don't think anybody is going to be able to explain it over a webpage.
You also have to consider your own naval chart. Venus is in scorpio right now, which is great if you are a virgo, but not so great if you are a Taurus.

Just look at the amount of data 1 week carries:

http://www.cafeastrology.com/thisweekinastrology.html

Oops , my bad, sorry. But in general if you do spells do you consider the astronomical or the astrological data?

[Desecrated]

Oops , my bad, sorry. But in general if you do spells do you consider the astronomical or the astrological data?

This depends on how deep you want to go.
We have to remember that there are people who work with nothing but doing charts for other people, so they consider both astronomical, astrological, naval and ever more factors. And might take 2-3 days to do a reading. while other magical practitioners just take an afternoon to plan out their entire month.

But if you think this is overkill, use what you think is needed.
Sometimes I go deeper, sometimes I just check to see what position the moon is in and if I have something particularly good or bad in my own horoscope.

It also depends on what I'm doing. If I'm just looking for a good date to start manufacturing a potion, I might just look at the moon. If I'm going to do a house clearing, I might break out the books and do a bit more serious pre-work.

I do think that some might follow the astrological instead of the astronomical more often because astrology feels like more old-time magic then astronomy. But I think it's important to check both, and to make that individual judgment what you want to follow.

[RockDemon]

Thanks Des!!

[Nahemah]

This is a good resource with lots of diagrams that make it easier to understand the science...

http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr161/lect ... stial.html

Go through it from this page onwards, it goes over ancient and Ptolemaic ideas then through to medieval and onwards.

Astronomy/Astrology walked together until the early modern period, with medieval and renaisaissance astrology eventually merging into scientifically observable astronomy and then becoming modern astronomy, thus ending up quite divergent from the Astrology of old and the new age laden stuff you see in magazines and papers etc.

The precession of equinoxes and the change in star positions over time, plus other scientific factors I'm not writing here, mean that nothing is accurately describable by it's anciently known position any more. When you learn about it you can use the modern positions quite comfortably and the calculations for planetary hours and days still work okay.

Extrapolation.

We move with the times, lol. [thumbup]

It's a lot to take in and learn, but it's very interesting too.

[TheSeeker]

Astronomy/Astrology walked together until the early modern period, with medieval and renaisaissance astrology eventually merging into scientifically observable astronomy and then becoming modern astronomy, thus ending up quite divergent from the Astrology of old and the new age laden stuff you see in magazines and papers etc.

and...

It's a lot to take in and learn, but it's very interesting too.

For those of you interested in both The Picatrix and Astrology, I have an acquaintance (with considerably more money than myself), who has undertaken Christopher Warnock's Renaissance Astrology Course, and says that it is well worth the expense. A heavy work load with a fairly steep learning curve, but with excellent support from Warnock himself.
His web page is certainly worth having a look at:
http://www.renaissanceastrology.com/ast ... urses.html

[RockDemon]

This is a good resource with lots of diagrams that make it easier to understand the science...

http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr161/lect ... stial.html

Go through it from this page onwards, it goes over ancient and Ptolemaic ideas then through to medieval and onwards.

Astronomy/Astrology walked together until the early modern period, with medieval and renaisaissance astrology eventually merging into scientifically observable astronomy and then becoming modern astronomy, thus ending up quite divergent from the Astrology of old and the new age laden stuff you see in magazines and papers etc.

The precession of equinoxes and the change in star positions over time, plus other scientific factors I'm not writing here, mean that nothing is accurately describable by it's anciently known position any more. When you learn about it you can use the modern positions quite comfortably and the calculations for planetary hours and days still work okay.

Extrapolation.

We move with the times, lol. [thumbup]

It's a lot to take in and learn, but it's very interesting too.

Oh I didn't noticed your post Nahemah, thank you very much!!

For those of you interested in both The Picatrix and Astrology, I have an acquaintance (with considerably more money than myself), who has undertaken Christopher Warnock's Renaissance Astrology Course, and says that it is well worth the expense. A heavy work load with a fairly steep learning curve, but with excellent support from Warnock himself.
His web page is certainly worth having a look at:
http://www.renaissanceastrology.com/ast ... urses.html

Your friend probably has more money than me as well
Anyway renaissance astrology is really an awesome websites with lot's of great articles.

[cyberdemon]

zbrm listed this link in another thread. http://www.theplanetstoday.com/astrology.html It tells which constellation each planet is in right now.