A Short Note on Bardon and IIH;

[Haelos]

<rantstart>
I've struggled to find the right words for this for a while, and now, I'm just running off of intuition and general annoyance. If this comes off improper, I apologize.

I need to take some time to be blunt and make some mentions on Franz Bardon and his three works. Most notably: Initiation into Hermetics.

Now, I see a lot of posts and sometimes entire websites dedicated to people attempting to join, create, or somehow be a part of a mystical group, a magick school, or some type of coven or other initiatory process. People are willing to pay vast amounts of money to receive spiritual training, and to be restricted by the dogma of some teacher that probably thinks he's God (and you can't deny this as a problem).

This is a huge issue when there are so many hundred upon thousands of books to offer you your own path. And no, I'm not saying to just pick one and dedicate your life to it.
Use some dang logic.

I've also heard many, many, MANY complaints that Bardons work is "too hard" or "too structured", or "too intense" or "too this" or "too that" or so on and so forth. And all that just isn't so.
First of all, Bardon wrote IIH *Specifically* so that even the most busy, un-adept, idiot of a man could start performing its work. Yes, it will be slow, yet it will be progress nonetheless.
Second off, he goes out of his way to state many times that the teachings of IIH can fit absolutely any path or dogma in existence. Anyone who's read the book should know this to be true.
Every path starts out with introspection and meditation (at least, they should.) What makes Bardon's so tough? The fact that you *actually* need to try and silence your mind?

Finally, and yes, this does deserve it's own paragraph;
Fuck structure, and fuck Franz Bardon. I don't give a damn what he says I should do when practicing what's written in his book. I practice how I want, when I want, and I progress when I'm ready, whether I've "mastered" the steps or not. So long as they become a constant, and you *actually do them*, it does not matter how you practice.
His intent does not matter in the situation. Yours does.
Yes, there is a reason he wrote his books as he did, and yes, you should familiarize yourself with the basics of everything, yet if you have an understanding, don't let some dead author hold your pathetic self back from transcendence.

It's your choice to decide how you use the knowledge you obtain in life. I can say for a certainty, having "Mastered" up to step four of Bardons work, and practiced a little bit of everything in all three of his books, that you do not need to follow anyones dogma except your own. And even then, you should be consistently destroying and rebuilding this "paradigm" (as you kids are so insistent on calling it) into something new and unique from before.





This part deserves its own section.
STOP SAYING PEOPLE SHOULDN'T READ IIH. Yes, I'm talking to you, people of occultforum.org.
Just because it's the only book I recommend, doesn't mean it's the only book you should read. Freaking obviously.
You can't *Always Only* practice magick. You need time to study in between, and learn theory, and that's why you pick up a fucking book and just start reading for Christ's sake.
I Know Bardon doesn't cover theory as well as he should. If you weren't paying attention, during the practice section he tells you some 50 freaking times for you to go out and read books on your own in the subjects he mentions. He LITERALLY TELLS YOU in his own book to just go read other books. He doesn't give you titles because he expects you to actually have some level of drive and initiative. I mean, hell. It's right there in the title even. Where do you think the word "Initiation" comes from?
He also tells you to meditate on the concepts he provides and draw your own conclusions. Or do people just stroke out, and entirely forget that ALL of step 1 and 2 is meditation and introspection? (on top of some minor healthy living.)


If you're so dissatisfied with Hermeticists *ONLY* offering Initiation into Hermetics as a manual for practice, then we can assuredly list you hundreds upon thousands of books that we've collectively read. It's not that it'd do you any good, however, because if you can't read one book, you surely can't read an entire library of mystical knowledge.
No matter how many books or resources I give you, no single piece of text will be as good a recommendation as Initiation into Hermetics. I will die by that statement.
I mean, hell. It was the first book you guys recommended to me upon joining this forum.. What the fuck.
I feel really sad in my bones that I've already outgrown a few of the older members here. Really, I don't like being the notable one, looked to for advice by those in need. I am those in need.

<rantover>
I apologize for my excessive degrading and foul language. It probably won't happen again probably.
I just think that there are far too many excuses and far too many over-exaggerators around here lately.
I've been around for a little while here. Learning in quiet, asking questions when needed, and contributing when able. I don't think too highly of myself, I think, and especially in this place, I try to be as humble as I can while still standing by my volition.
However, I think the general mentality of people around here needs to be re-assessed.
Before you ask, it isn't any one person, and it isn't any one thing that's contributing to this idea.
We all, as magicians, have shaped the thoughtform that is OccultForum. We have this knowledge, and we need to be taking advantage of it to promote a better air that what is often seen. To an extent, it also isn't just this forum, but the internet or society as a whole.

I'm a shell of the man I was yesterday. You all are the same people I've known for years.
</rantover>
</rant>

[Horny Goat]

I believe IIH to be an incomplete system of magick. I own the book and have a pdf copy. Searching through this I find the term subconscious crops up plenty of times but the following terms never do - Higher Self and superconscious mind. Not all of the results a magickian produces are brought about by their subconscious. Sometimes they are produced by the superconscious mind, also termed the Higher Self. Anyone demanding great miracles from their subconscious only is over tasking it/themselves terribly.

[RockDemon]

I believe IIH to be an incomplete system of magick. I own the book and have a pdf copy. Searching through this I find the term subconscious crops up plenty of times but the following terms never do - Higher Self and superconscious mind. Not all of the results a magickian produces are brought about by their subconscious. Sometimes they are produced by the superconscious mind, also termed the Higher Self. Anyone demanding great miracles from their subconscious only is over tasking it/themselves terribly.

You've got both copies, did you read IIH completely?

[RockDemon]

@Haelos while I cannot agree with what you say about people here since it is not even a year that I am here, however, I agree with everything said about IIH. Throughout the internet, I see people nowadays say that IIH is a hard book to practice because, in fact, some modern-day books are easier than IIH indeed. However I chose to practice with IIH, and I do not regret a second I spent on practicing it. Doing such 'hard' practices of IIH cultivated in me so much willpower and changed me so much into the better me that it is already magick in itself.

[Desecrated]

I really hate this passive aggressiveness. "some people" ,"you people". If you are going to make a public statement, make it public.

"STOP SAYING PEOPLE SHOULDN'T READ IIH. Yes, I'm talking to you, people of occultforum.org."


Who?

[frater.akenu]

I believe IIH to be an incomplete system of magick. I own the book and have a pdf copy. Searching through this I find the term subconscious crops up plenty of times but the following terms never do - Higher Self and superconscious mind. Not all of the results a magickian produces are brought about by their subconscious. Sometimes they are produced by the superconscious mind, also termed the Higher Self. Anyone demanding great miracles from their subconscious only is over tasking it/themselves terribly.

Not incomplete, it's just that Frantisek has used a theory that was appealing at the time to describe the occult concepts behind.

[cyberdemon]

I really hate this passive aggressiveness. "some people" ,"you people". If you are going to make a public statement, make it public.

"STOP SAYING PEOPLE SHOULDN'T READ IIH. Yes, I'm talking to you, people of occultforum.org."


Who?

i assume he means people who discourage IIH in favour of newer methodology books

in my opinion IIH is extremely important. i consider it one of the few "textbooks" into western magick practice because it's one of the first complete compendiums of methodology and philosophy of its time. sure we've new books, derivatives, new philosophies, etc. but bardon "first" did what people needed - a guidebook. and as this "first" it's pretty darn good and still hard to beat.

we've had former admins who believed IIH was worth a book "teaching" to groups, even. i don't think anyone questions the standing of IIH, really.

[Nahemah]

It's very popular and often recommended here, especially recently.

People post according to their own paradgimal tastes, but not being a Hermetecist shouldn't necessarily preclude reading such material out of interest or as part of a study into other systems.

Staff are discussing the need for a seperate space for Bardon, IIH and related information, as it's so popular, in fact.

Seems like a good idea to me too, on looking around at the busy topics.

I must have missed something, I didn't see any anti Bardon rhetoric in the active topics. I'll go check now..

[WillowDarkWytch]

I believe IIH to be an incomplete system of magick. I own the book and have a pdf copy. Searching through this I find the term subconscious crops up plenty of times but the following terms never do - Higher Self and superconscious mind. Not all of the results a magickian produces are brought about by their subconscious. Sometimes they are produced by the superconscious mind, also termed the Higher Self. Anyone demanding great miracles from their subconscious only is over tasking it/themselves terribly.

Motumbá Àse!

It's not a "system of magick" its a training course. The "system" comes later in Practice of Magical Evocation and Key to True Qabalah. Those would be more "systems" rather than IIH.

As they say above, it was an awesome book for the time. And it's a book that teaches pretty practical things and how to develop magickal skills, at least, the most usable ones. From clairvoyance to astral travel to other realms. Controling the elements and chat with spiritual beings. AND it doesn't "marry" with any religious system, not even hebrew qabalistic paradigms. It's actually very universal, very hermetic and you can be of any thought school or any religion and you might use it as well without any "paradigm" or belief clash.

So, a pretty good book to recomend to new practitioners.

I also believe that it's a "hard book". Why? To have REAL ACCOMPLISHMENTS with it, you need to put yourself into it, like training every day, following the instructions, etc. and most of the people (I think) it's not willing to sacrifice "partying", and hanging out with friends to be up to their training, yeah, I think it's a "hard book".

For a training book, it's complete. For a system of magick, no, it's not, but I also think it's not a system of magick, it's the training part, development of skill, etc.

Saravá
Idansinají

[WillowDarkWytch]

It's very popular and often recommended here, especially recently.

People post according to their own paradgimal tastes, but not being a Hermetecist shouldn't necessarily preclude reading such material out of interest or as part of a study into other systems.

Staff are discussing the need for a seperate space for Bardon, IIH and related information, as it's so popular, in fact.

But in hermetism we can discuss Bardon, do you really think we need a "Bardon Room" ? Do we have "Hermetism" topic?

I must have missed something, I didn't see any anti Bardon rhetoric in the active topics. I'll go check now..

Yeah, I haven't seen that neither :/

[WillowDarkWytch]

And even then, you should be consistently destroying and rebuilding this "paradigm" (as you kids are so insistent on calling it) into something new and unique from before.

Who are the kids? How old are you? How much time have you been "wandering" the occult to think you can call the rest of us "kids"?

I'm really curious, you make it sound like we don't know what we're talking about

Edit:

I continued reading and...

I feel really sad in my bones that I've already outgrown a few of the older members here. Really, I don't like being the notable one, looked to for advice by those in need. I am those in need.

Now I'm really curious, where does all that "security" (to put it in pretty nice words) comes from?

[Horny Goat]

It (IIH) is an incomplete system of magick... I wonder if Bardon was the real deal - a genuine magus, with the abilities he claimed could be developed - or whether he was a pseudo-initiate. It's easy to write theory offering yourself as being more accomplished than you really are. We all do it.

Bardon's book, IIH, contains the truth, but not the full truth. By leaving out the Higher Self/superconscious mind he offers an incomplete model of man and so has created an incomplete system of magick. Through his energy work he would have you endlessly practice and develop the ability to raise vast amounts of various different magickal energies in order to produce miraculous effects but fails to tell you that there is a level of mind beyond your subconscious - your superconscious mind, and that some of your desired results are actually brought about by this level of mind rather than the subconscious level. Insisting that the latter produce all results is like insisting upon eating by shoving food up your nostrils because 'they're an orifice.'

A pseudo-initiate is every hit as influential as a real one. I think we see that very often.

[Nahemah]

I think it could be a folder in WMT, Ceremonial or Modern magick sectors, depending on how and what we decide for board rearrangements.

The criticisms offered here in this thread seem reasonably put across, offered with some degree of insight and logical progression of argument, though I couldn't answer them or rebutt them myself, as I lack the understanding of the system for doing so.

I also think these criticisms and ongoing debate from them may merit a discussion in it's own right.

[WillowDarkWytch]

Horny Goat, what is a "system of magick" for you??

To me an example of "system of magick" is the Golden Dawn, the Aurum Solis, Servants of the Light, etc. They do have training but also have a spiritual structure and hierarchy.

The training course of Franz Bardon doesn't. Leaves that to you, and being fair, to do magick you don't need you're "higher self", that is for Ceremonial Magicians, to systems of magick which have a spiritual goal. The goal of Bardon's training course is to delevolp psychic and some spiritual habilities. The "Supraconcious" or "Higher Self" it's worked through your own belief system. For example I'm initiated into Candomblé, SO my "higher self" or "Supraconscious" it's worked through my spiritual work, through my Ori and my Orixá (orisha, sort of Guardian angel or protector totem) towards Olorun (God). So I could perfectly use this trainig course or training system to develop my magical habilities without have to enter any other belief system, as it happens with Golden Dawn, most rosicrucian orders, Aurum Solis, etc etc etc.

SO it's the perfect trainig system, not a MAGICK SYSTEM. so it would seem that you are very influence by some line or very particular school of thought when it comes to magick.

And I ask you, Are you an Initiate, Horny Goat?

Saravá
Idansinají

[Horny Goat]

WillowDarkWytch, you must have the creepiest pic ever. Cripes. Who's really ever going to want to be addressed by you?? Too scary.

You're initiated into Candomble? Holy Kapoly! More sinister yet. Why would IIH interest you then? You can get pretty much whatever you want without bothering with Bardon's tedious exercises.

With regards to IIH, if you only teach people to use two-thirds of their being then that's like saying take up running in order to compete in a marathon but you only have a left leg/left foot and not a right leg/right foot but you'll still be super duper fast. If your going to teach people Hermeticism, magick practiced through their own power, then teach them of their full being rather than just a fraction of it.

[WillowDarkWytch]

WillowDarkWytch, you must have the creepiest pic ever. Cripes. Who's really ever going to want to be addressed by you?? Too scary

It's just an avatar, a "Living Dead" Doll.

You're initiated into Candomble? Holy Kapoly! More sinister yet. Why would IIH interest you then? You can get pretty much whatever you want without bothering with Bardon's tedious exercises.

I find your comment most offensive. Candomblé is a religion, and as most ATR it's focused on Healing, body and soul. It's not like Hollywood movies. It does have a "shamanic" way when it comes to spirituality and really powerful elemental/natural magick "system", but it's not a "magick system" at all, even if part of our practices are mystical/magickal. It's a religion, nothing "sinister" about it.

Also, I'm an occultist, and that goes beyond ones beliefs or faith. I "was" (never stope being) a magician, Ceremonial magician to be more specific, for many years. So, that's why I'd be interested in ALL forms of magick because I'm interested in HOW IT WORKS.

Bardon's training doesn't need to tell you what to believe or how, becuase it gives you the tools to FIND OUT BY YOURSELF. When you get to advance levels, he teches you how to reach spiritual being, and you may recieve spiritual instruction by them. So, he doesn't teach you about ONE school rather than teaches you to discover your own. AND he does talk about certain subjects, though he doesn't go in deeper explanaitions, he just tells you what to look for and read or study about it. I think you didn't get at all his message.

Maybe you like easier things and not to think too much. But I strongly recomend that book to anyone who begins in magick.

Saravá and may Oosaala give you enlighment
Idansinají

PS1: You didn't answer if you are or not an Initiate, as you give yourself the right to criticise other initiate.
PS2: I feel that you're VERY Dion Fortune-ish, I don't know, it just feels like it

[Haelos]

I dont have time to go over all the grievances in this thread.
I'll address the part I care about.

Horny Goat, you are very, very incorrect here. Bardon does go over working wjth the higher self. You clearly don't read well.
He also *never* claims that magick "comes from" anywhere, be it the subconscious or otherwise. We are using natural laws to our advantage. Nothing more.
Also, magick is not a "system." It is a tool. There are no "systems" of magick, and your world is built around broken theory.

That is all.
If you want a response dealing with this thread, PM me. Otherwise, I simply don't care.

[cyberdemon]

thread is degenerating into arguments, sooooo.. i'm locking this.